२५ नोव्हेंबर, २०२३
"For Israeli leaders, the war is 'all about eradicating and destroying Hamas... So anything less than that is not a win...'"
"'If Hamas maintains and retains residual political power, then Hamas can claim they won.' After the initial elation of the hostage releases wears off, the Israeli public may still overwhelmingly back resuming the invasion, even if it prevents the immediate liberation of more Israeli captives. As more hostages are released, Israelis will hear more accounts of how they were treated during their abduction and captivity — accounts that could well amplify calls for Hamas’s destruction...."
From "Israel has vowed to continue its invasion after the truce ends. Could that change?" (NYT)(the quote within the quote is from Alon Pinkas, an Israeli political commentator).
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
९९ टिप्पण्या:
How do you destroy Hamas? I don't see any option for Israel other than to re-occupy Gaza.
"Could that change?"
Well, yes. Israel is up against the world, not just Hamas. Israel has its own progs urging "peace." The Israeli public has already shown weakness with its lamentations about the hostages. But for now, realism seems to prevail.
You can't destroy an idea.
Well just as "Carthage must be destroyed", Israel needs to demolish root and branch of Hamas.
Now that's a harsh view--but if a country is faced by a foe who has vowed that destruction of the country is its goal, then the choice is fight or die.
While Fatah has reevaluated its hopes, dreams, and methods, Hamas has followed a progressive course. Israelis have no choice other than to abort the forward-looking risk.
Suppose that Israel destroys Hamas's entire tunnel structure, but cannot "eradicate" Hamas completely.
I would call that "a win" for Israel.
Isn’t there every expectation that every single participant in the original terrorist action will be brought to justice?
They can be tried and sentenced either as common criminals, or as participants in war crimes. Take your pick.
Since Israel is being (falsely) accused of genocide for their pinprick attacks on Hamas, maybe they should show the world what real genocide would look like. Kill every Palestinian male of military age — say 12 to 60 — and sterilize all the women who aren’t already post-menopausal. Send all the really young kids, age 5 and under, to Jewish orphanages and raise them to be good Jews. Round up the prettiest Palestinian women age 18 to 28 and send them to the brothels in Tel Aviv and other Israeli cities. After all, if you’re going to be accused of genocide, you might as well really do genocide. This would be an expensive proposition, but the costs would eventually be overshadowed by less need to use Iron Dome and no more fence maintenance, plus revenue realized from building resort hotels on prime Mediterranean seafront real estate.
@Althouse, your posts this morning are really hardening my heart. I preferred it when I was a big old softy.
Like weeds and cockroaches. Got to get rid of all of them.
You can't destroy an idea.
Why not just sing your anthem out loud: From the ocean to the sea ...
Truce? When did Hamas agree not to fight from the river to the sea and coexist with Israel?
Hamas leader Sinwar was released from Israeli prison in 2011 as part of a hostage exchange. Today's prisoner exchanges will become tomorrow's terrorist leaders. Right now the whole thing meets the definition of insanity.
Not a single American hostage released. Zero.
Biden is a complete failure.
You don't destroy the dogma. The idea of exterminating the Jews is built into Islam. No other religion has something stated as such a part of their ritual belief against another people. It's...."Our God is great, our God is great. Give to your neighbors. Wives submit to your husbands. And...oh yeah, kill Jews." So...it'll always exist in Islam, more fervently with some groups than with others. And among those with whom it's not a priority, they are making peace with Israel. Iran (and, by extension, Hamas) could not bear to see that happening. And so they went on a mutilation spree.
Hamas, as a political force must be destroyed. And frankly, the only way for that to happen is for the Palestinians to say to themselves, "We've had enough. They take the money sent to us to buy healthcare and food, energy, supplies- and they use it to buy arms, build tunnels, train to kill- Jews AND Muslims. Enough. Enough. We would be far better off, and at peace, if we just ran our own State ourselves."
Do I see this happening? No. Not in my lifetime.
But Israel had to make it clear they are done being a target of Hamas. Those who allow them to stash their weaponry, missile launchers, rpgs, and dig tunnels among them surely had to know that 'some day' would come.
I think Gutfeld the other night remarked that Trump had a Don Rickles sense of humor. Another covert.
Oops wrong thread. I wonder if there's some human factors thing on getting the right link.
Also, this: Israel took its knee off of the neck of Hamas in stepping back, stopping themselves, and allowing for a pause- in order to exchange hostages.
And to no one's surprise, Hamas has now delayed past agreed times to release the next phase of hostages. They are, I'm sure, doing what they can to set up more defenses, and/or escape as just random Palestinians.
Israel released criminals, people who had committed real crimes. They left the jail taunting their captors. Laughing at them. Warning them.
The hostages released from Hamas were simply quiet and grateful.
You don't deal with Hamas. Israel knows this. The rest of the world plays dumb.
I predicted in another forum last week that a temporary cease-fire for hostage release would be used to try to box the Israelis into stopping the assault completely. Any attempt to resume operations in Gaza will be condemned as "breaking the cease-fire" even if the cease-fire has a closing date after 4 days.
I don't know what the Israelis will do, but I do know that the Biden Administration will start to join in on the condemnation if the Israelis restart operations.
More death and genocide. Israel is NOT determined to "get rid of Hamas". They're determined to get rid of the 2 million gazans. That's why they killing thousands of civilians, bombing hospitals, and destroying 25-40 percent of the buildings in gaza. Not to mention cutting off food and water.
And boys, we're paying for it. And will probably have to take x hundreds of thousands of Gazans after they've been "ethnically cleansed" by Israel. Oh well, "We stand by Israel" because....well because.
BTW, if you want to know how deranged 'muricans are about Israel, I just saw about Youtube video about "Christian Zionists". Seems some of them go to Israel every year for a month, and pick the grapes for a Jewish Vinyard owner. For Free! They're just happy to serve the Jews and show their love Israel. Y'know like the bible says. Maybe we can send some Christian missionaries to talk to them, and teach them Christianity.
Here's hoping after as many hostages as can be freed are recovered, Israel demands unconditional surrender by all Gazan belligerents, with war crime trials run by the Israeli military, to include those Hamas leaders in Qatar. Or the fight against Hamas continues.
If a leading Canadian or Mexican political faction were irrevocably committed to killing US citizens, and acted upon such convictions whenever possible, the US would, with bipartisan support, take all necessary steps to eradicate that political faction.
After october 7th they should pulverized thr place
"...if a country is faced by a foe who has vowed that destruction of the country is its goal, then the choice is fight or die."
Doesn't that give Hamas just cause to try to annihilate Israel? (Theoretically, of course; Hamas has no chance of prevailing against Israel.)
Why is that the same savage tactics of violence and mass murder that are used to condemn Warring State A as savage dogs, insane homicidal maniacs with no reverence for human life, are accepted and promoted as the necessary and just strategy of Warring State B? It's really all the same--murder and terror and devastation--but the difference is simply: This one is my team and that one is the other team. War is mass murder committed by all participants against each other until someone stands as the winner.
Hamas can and will claim what they want. Those of us that pay attention know them to be lying sacks of excrement. They lack most of the qualities that make us human. A stain on civilization.
The Abraham Accords started by Trump initiated a new era in ME politics. The younger generations coming to power in the Arab states don't have the need to keep the failure of the "experts" in League of Nations/UN and the British Foreign Office started after WWI. The British gave 80% the newly created Palestine to the colonizing Hashemites in what is now Jordan. Then they tried to ensure the Jews were disarmed when Israel came into being but failed and the Israelis beat back the Arab armies in 1948. The old kings had a vested interest in the 1950 ideas but the young do not.
But now to "move on" the Palestinians are no longer useful to the Arab states. So they must be dealt with. No solution is possible until the Islamic Hamas is destroyed. Israel was always going to have to hunt and kill every Hamas at some point. If they do a fair job, then the Arab states and prevail on Fatah and the Palestinians to some reasonable resolution. Abbas is already suddenly calling for a 2-state solution which he refused in past negotiations. Might be preening, but might be due to having been read the riot act by the Saudis, UAE, etc.
"Isn’t there every expectation that every single participant in the original terrorist action will be brought to justice? They can be tried and sentenced either as common criminals, or as participants in war crimes. Take your pick."
Hmmm. For many former Nazi scientists, technicians, etc., the "justice" they were meted was employment by the USA government.
How is it an "invasion" if the collective left are telling us Gaza is an apartheid state?
Blogger rcocean said...
More death and genocide. Israel is NOT determined to "get rid of Hamas". They're determined to get rid of the 2 million gazans. That's why they killing thousands of civilians, bombing hospitals, and destroying 25-40 percent of the buildings in gaza. Not to mention cutting off food and water.
I think you should try hard to find out what medicine Crack is supposed to be on and get on it yourself.
Temujin 12:24.
###
I heard for every one hostage - Israel was required to release 3 Hamas terrorist criminal murderers.
War is mass murder committed by all participants against each other until someone stands as the winner.
So it was and so it shall ever be. Better weaponry is the only change in the past 10,000 years. I'm thinking it has something to do with human nature.
People wondering what I meant in my comment at 11:34 can read rcocean's comment at 12:31.
the Israelis are tactically winning military battles on the ground right now. Whether one can destroy Hamas or extremist militarism against Israel through bombing and a ground war is another (longer) question.
Way to ride the squirrel cook
Gaza Ministry of Health post on X...
"The Zionist occupation army is destroying the tunnels that have been built by the hands of our children!
Over 160 children gave their lives building those tunnels. This is how they disrespect our children!"
H/T Ace
Gaza Ministry of Health post on X...
"The Zionist occupation army is destroying the tunnels that have been built by the hands of our children!
Over 160 children gave their lives building those tunnels. This is how they disrespect our children!"
H/T Ace
Robert Cook (12:47pm) claims that Israel and Hamas are using "the same savage tactics of violence and mass murder" against each other.
Does he think Israeli troops are gang-raping every Gazan woman they can catch, cutting off the heads of their babies, hauling hogtied civilian captives back to Israel in pickups for Israeli civilians to jeer and spit on, and that Hamas warned Israeli civilians to get out of the way before their October 7th incursion?
If so, if he actually believes all that, he's a fool. If not, it he knows it's false but writes it anyway, he's a filthy liar. Pick one!
Israel is the only nation founded by the survivors of the largest attempted genocide in the modern world. They are now engaged in a war with Iran and it's proxy Hamas whom have both vowed to annihilate Israel and frequently use genocidal threats.
I believe in and fully support the idea of Never Again.
Threats have consequences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel
So when they ordered the bombings of sbarro the dolphinarium hadera afula dizengoff square it had to come from somewhere
Germans voted the Nazis into power and thus when war was declared it was declared on GERMANY... not just 'Nazis'.
Gaza voters voted for Hamas to run their country. And thus, to me, when Israel declared war, they would have just declared war on Gaza and not just Hamas.
And like in WW2.. UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER, no negotiations. No compromise. Invade Gaza and destroy and all that resist till they surrender.
<A HREF="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Lohd2A4l7rg>STOP THE LIES</A>
That's all this is about: Israeli propaganda.
The Crack Emcee: "The Zionists said Hamas has a Command and Control Center under the hospital in Gaza, but - being reminded of what a hidden Command and Control Center is actually like - I have serious doubts."
Did you spend alot of time in "hidden Command and Control Centers" while serving as a sailor on a .... resupply ship?
LOL
But dont leave us in suspense! Tell us more about your "hidden Command and Control Center" experiences!
Looks like Crack has fallen victim to Malcom Nance Fabulist Syndrome!
Robert Cook, Drago,
Everyone got in the mix
From 'Ice Station Zebra'
David Jones: The Russians put our camera made by *our* German scientists and your film made by *your* German scientists into their satellite made by *their* German scientists.
And they couldn't go after the likes of Mengele hard without having him and other Camp doctors bringing the eugenics papers from American professors at elite status universities where they got their basic ideas for the German "research" from into evidence.
A:I'm going to kill you and all your countrymen.
B: I'll fight back until you stop.
A: I'll never stop.
B: I'll fight until you are incapable of further fighting.
See! SEE! Those damn Jews are just like/worse than Hamas....
- A sadly large percentage of commenters
Interesting reports the Mossad have been told to kill the Hamas leaders living in luxury in Qatar. Makes it a lot more costly than just canon fodder dying.
If it were up to me, after the terrorists release how many hostages they will release (I assume that any they don't release have been killed, probably after torture), then I would continue the IDF push all the way to southern Gaza, right to and through the Egyptian gates. And when the last Palestinian goes out the gates, I'd close them and announce that Gaza is no more. I'd enforce that by creating an irradiated barrier between the former "Gaza" and Israel.
Then I'd order a cease fire.
EXCEPT if any Hamas survive, I'd go after them wherever they hide, the way earlier Israelis went after the makers of the previous Holocaust.
Or, as Hamas broke the existing negotiated peacefires with the slaughters first and broke the current peace fire today, should Israel do, what? Put up cat pictures on tic-toc?
Some issues can't be parsed out with pretty words, right?,
https://quillette.com/2023/10/30/a-different-concept-of-death/?ref=quillette-daily-newsletter
"Do not explain Israel's policy,...it is very difficult for us to win there."
- Israelunderfire.net
Do we need to name every terrorist leader from yassin to beiri who had been released peviously
Zionists jumped out of a burning building called WWII Europe, and landed on the Palestinian's head. But - rather than apologizing for the pain and inconvenience they caused like a normal person - the Zionists keep trying to reach a "deal" to stay perched on the Palestinian's heads forever, like that would make any sense to the Palestinians, who never agreed to take on the Zionists, or their problems, and now just want to be left alone without them.
Someone thinks it's significant that "their first elderly Israeli captive said - they cared for all their needs and treated them gently"! Most of the hostages released so far have close relatives still in Hamas's hands, and all have fellow human beings. If (hypothetically) they were grossly mistreated, they cannot say so, because they know Hamas can torture, or rape, or kill, or just keep forever, the hostages still in their hands.
The testimony of released hostages about how they were treated is utterly worthless. They are not free to tell the truth.
"as their first elderly Israeli captive said - they cared for all their needs and treated therm gently."
Well, that's big of them…
Here's the fact that you Israel supporters wont face. The Israeli's have bombed and killed 12,000 civilians. 4,000 of them kids. They have forced hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians to leave their homes. Either because their apartment buildings have been destroyed or they have no food, water or electricity.
Israel has deliberately bombed Hospitals and ambulances. Even the Nazis didn't do that. They've allowed a cease-fire but have stated they will continue to bomb Gaza. if it takes 100 civilian deaths to kill one Hamas fighter that's OK with Bebe Netenyahu.
We Americans paying this genocide. It's bought and paid for in the USA. We could stop Israel in ONE SECOND. Even worse - the same people who blubber over the "hostages", and rend their garments over the 1400 Israelis - are the same people shouting "kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out". Yeah, those little Palestinians deserve to die. "That's war, baby" they snark. Even though this genocide isn't a "war".
Getting Gentile Americans to act like Americans or even decent human beings is almost impossible. Maybe this country deserves its decline and fall.
"For Israeli leaders, the war is 'all about eradicating and destroying Hamas... So anything less than that is not a win...'"
Wrong goal. The right goal is seeing to it that nothing like October 7th ever happens again. It’s not clear to me that “eradicating and destroying Hamas” is necessarily sufficient to accomplish that goal. For that matter there is some small chance that Hamas could survive and the goal could be met (though that’s not the way to bet).
There came a point in the evolution of consciousness in Germany and Japan that people there decided that the way of the Bushido or Prussian militarism weren't the way to future success or happiness. Perhaps some of the more reflective citizens of Gaza will look at the devastation around them and decide a less militant approach to Israel is warranted. Or maybe not. Israel's neighbors in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Algeria, Libya et al. don't have a record of settling their differences amicably or, for that matter, of ever settling their differences at all. Some of these disputes are centuries old....Anything that Israel does will prove to be the absolute wrong move. That's because it will be a deed done in the real world and any actual done deed in that neighborhood always works out for the worst. We removed Saddam and Qaddaffi, and look what came next. But if we hadn't acted, Saddam and Qaddaffi would have created their own pile of corpses, and some would have blamed us for our passivity in the presence of such evil....I think Israel should exercise some restraint. They have had brutish crimes inflicted on them, and there's now an undercurrent of "Exterminate the brutes" in their thinking. There's a point to laying waste to Gaza, but there's a point when it's too much. I don't know how you do the calculus and decide that just the proper amount of devastation has been leveled but there is definitely a point where it becomes counterproductive....It wasn't the bombing of Dresden that won the war. It was the defeat of the German army that did the trick. There are some who claim that all that bombing hardened German resolve to resist and prolonged the war.....People are asking Israel to refine their tactics and war aims, but shouldn't those same people be asking Hamas some hard questions. Why doesn't Hamas offer the unconditional release of all hostages if Israel agrees to a cease fire and free passage of humanitarian assistance?
Israel is so well known for the technological and medical advances Israelis have given the world, Israel's advancements in agriculture don't often get the credit they deserve. Ahad Ha-am's quote from the beginning of the 20th century points to seemingly insurmountable challenges faced by the Jews but thanks to the genius and hardwork of those pioneering Jews those obstacles were overcome.
"Israel’s agriculture is a success story, reflecting a continuous struggle to overcome unfavorable local conditions. Facing the prospect of food shortages, after its establishment in 1948, the country pursued an aggressive strategy of agricultural development. It almost tripled the lands zoned for agriculture and dramatically increased production, notwithstanding the saline soil, arid or semi-arid climate, scant fresh water supply and inexperience amongst many new immigrant farmers. Much of Israel’s agricultural success can be attributed to technological R&D and myriad innovations that revolutionised the way farmers cultivate, irrigate and protect crops from pests, producing steadily higher revenues for farmers. The country invested heavily in developing new sources of water, promoting wastewater irrigation and fostering close co-operation between farmers. This chapter elaborates on Israel’s key technological advances, incentive structures and institutional innovations. Perhaps, the most distinguishing feature of Israel’s agricultural production is the dominant role played by cooperative communities. After seventy years, three-fourths of the country’s total crop area is still overseen by kibbutzim and moshavim, farming collaboratives. During the mid-1980s, Israel undertook substantial economic policy reforms that also resulted in profound structural changes in the agricultural sector such as a decrease in the number of farms, expansion of farm size, diversification of cropping patterns towards high-value fruits and vegetables, as well as thriving, private enterprises serving agriculture. Together, these policies contribute to improved integration of the agro-food sector with global markets, even though the country no longer produces sufficient calories to feed its rapidly growing population. The chapter tells the story of how Israel grew increasingly technologically sophisticated, with ever efficient utilisation of resources and adoption of precision agricultural methods, while spawning an innovative and profitable agrotech ecosystem." Israeli Agriculture—Innovation and Advancement Alon Tal
Moreover, Israel has continued to be a world leader in agricultural advances. "Dubbed 'AgTech' or 'agritech' by those in the know, this ever-evolving sector has revolutionized how we harvest, prepare, package, and distribute food. Israel sits at the forefront of the field and will continue finding innovative solutions to strengthen world food security—one of the most pressing problems facing the future of humanity." See: HOW ISRAELI AGRICULTURE TECHNOLOGY IS CHANGING THE WORLD FOR THE BETTER
April 13, 2021
Crack and Hamas can go pound sand.
Blogger rcocean said...
Here's the fact that you Israel supporters wont face. The Israeli's have bombed and killed 12,000 civilians. 4,000 of them kids. They have forced hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians to leave their homes. Either because their apartment buildings have been destroyed or they have no food, water or electricity.
It's not very smart to accept the Pallywood version of what goes on around Israel. In fact, it's kind of dumb.
Crack: "Right. Because Hamas is like Nazis. This is more like a fight in Game of Thrones between Peter Dinklage and "The Mountain" and y'all are talking like it's anything close to a fair fight. You're all crazy."
Not surprising a military and historical ignoramus, such as yourself, would simply retreat into pop-cult references. What else are you going to do at this point in time? Catch up?
LOL
I think not.
And as for a "fair fight", see if you can describe the overall correlation of Arab nation economic/military might vs that of Israel.
Of course you wont be able to because...well..ignoramus.
The disparity in economic power + total military might is so vastly in the Arabs/muslim world favor that it needn't be discussed further.
Is that why you are so angry Crack? Those terrible whitey jooooos wont agree to march into the ocean of their own volition and they insist on being a successful multi-ethnic, multi-racial society putting the lie to the claims of your "heroic" 7th century islamic-supremacist death cultists?
Tsk tsk tsk
JK Brown writes, "And they couldn't go after the likes of Mengele hard without having him and other Camp doctors bringing the eugenics papers from American professors at elite status universities where they got their basic ideas for the German "research" from into evidence."
Careful, JK Brown, there is a second-place halfwit award. Robert Cook has aced the blue ribbon, but you could get the red.
Study history by reading first-hand sources and not the half-baked opinions of rumor-mongers. Eugenics is about selective human breeding, something they didn't promote in Auschwitz. Death camp "research" fell into two broad categories -- the harebrained twins "experiments" performed by Josef Mengele which was nothing but white-coated lunacy, and totally immoral yet nevertheless genuine and militarily significant research into questions about exposure to high-altitude conditions, exposure to extreme cold, compression and decompression, and health effects of eating chemically preserved foodstuffs.
SS camp doctors were commissioned by the Luftwaffe, the Kriegsmarine, and the Heer to look into several situations affecting pilots, sailors, and infantrymen. For example, could a pilot bail out of a reconnaissance plane like the Ar-234 flying at 36,000 feet and survive? Could he endure the freezing waters of the North Atlantic long enough to be rescued? Could the crew of a sunken U-boat escape to the surface from 100 meters depth? Could the crew of a pressured bomber survive damage leading to rapid decompression? Could German soldiers eat chemically preserved food and not be poisoned? American eugenics speculation had nothing to do with these experiments that often painfully killed their involuntary test subjects or left them crippled and scarred. The results of those vile experiments were nevertheless valuable to the Allies because they had many of the same questions about their pilots, sailors, and soldiers, but they had no data derived from human subjects. What happens to a tranquilized bear ejected seven miles up isn't exactly applicable to a man. There has been a continual ethical controversy over whether the documentation from the death camp research should have been preserved and evaluated or immediately destroyed and forgotten.
Eugenics was about selective breeding, and just like selective breeding projects with livestock, it takes many generations to see reliable evidence of the crossings. In mice that could be five or six years. In humans that would be 80 years to over a century. Death camp inmates were expected to die within hours of arrival, the few who weren't exterminated immediately typically lived a matter of months. This is in no way consistent with breeding research. Besides, the Nazi goal was the extermination of the Jews, not the breeding of better ones. The Nazis did engage in eugenics projects, but Mengele and the death camp doctors had little or nothing to do with it. Their aspirations toward the Übermensch involved mating "ideal Aryan" men, often SS members, to similarly "ideal" girls and then farming out the resultant infants to childless German couples. This was Lebensborn, the "fountain of life", and the breeders were volunteers... perverted probably, but volunteers nonetheless. There was, however, another part of Nazi eugenics, Unternehmen T4, the sterilization or euthanization of Germans considered too weak to deserve life. But the T4 operations were halted years before 1942 when Mengele and his buddies started to tinker with human suffering.
JK Brown writes, "And they couldn't go after the likes of Mengele hard without having him and other Camp doctors bringing the eugenics papers from American professors at elite status universities where they got their basic ideas for the German "research" from into evidence."
Careful, JK Brown, there is a second-place halfwit award. Robert Cook has aced the blue ribbon, but you could get the red.
Study history by reading first-hand sources and not the half-baked opinions of rumor-mongers. Eugenics is about selective human breeding, something they didn't promote in Auschwitz. Death camp "research" fell into two broad categories -- the harebrained twins "experiments" performed by Josef Mengele which was nothing but white-coated lunacy, and totally immoral yet nevertheless genuine and militarily significant research into questions about exposure to high-altitude conditions, exposure to extreme cold, compression and decompression, and health effects of eating chemically preserved foodstuffs.
SS camp doctors were commissioned by the Luftwaffe, the Kriegsmarine, and the Heer to look into several situations affecting pilots, sailors, and infantrymen. For example, could a pilot bail out of a reconnaissance plane like the Ar-234 flying at 36,000 feet and survive? Could he endure the freezing waters of the North Atlantic long enough to be rescued? Could the crew of a sunken U-boat escape to the surface from 100 meters depth? Could the crew of a pressured bomber survive damage leading to rapid decompression? Could German soldiers eat chemically preserved food and not be poisoned? American eugenics speculation had nothing to do with these experiments that often painfully killed their involuntary test subjects or left them crippled and scarred. The results of those vile experiments were nevertheless valuable to the Allies because they had many of the same questions about their pilots, sailors, and soldiers, but they had no data derived from human subjects. What happens to a tranquilized bear ejected seven miles up isn't exactly applicable to a man. There has been a continual ethical controversy over whether the documentation from the death camp research should have been preserved and evaluated or immediately destroyed and forgotten.
Eugenics was about selective breeding, and just like selective breeding projects with livestock, it takes many generations to see reliable evidence of the crossings. In mice that could be five or six years. In humans that would be 80 years to over a century. Death camp inmates were expected to die within hours of arrival, the few who weren't exterminated immediately typically lived a matter of months. This is in no way consistent with breeding research. Besides, the Nazi goal was the extermination of the Jews, not the breeding of better ones. The Nazis did engage in eugenics projects, but Mengele and the death camp doctors had little or nothing to do with it. Their aspirations toward the Übermensch involved mating "ideal Aryan" men, often SS members, to similarly "ideal" girls and then farming out the resultant infants to childless German couples. This was Lebensborn, the "fountain of life", and the breeders were volunteers... perverted probably, but volunteers nonetheless. There was, however, another part of Nazi eugenics, Unternehmen T4, the sterilization or euthanization of Germans considered too weak to deserve life. But the T4 operations were halted years before 1942 when Mengele and his buddies started to tinker with human suffering.
JK Brown: "And they couldn't go after the likes of Mengele hard without having him and other Camp doctors bringing the eugenics papers from American professors at elite status universities where they got their basic ideas for the German "research" from into evidence."
A particular example of this was the allies/US use of death camp records which gave insights into survivingcold weather/cold water environments. The horrific experiments performed by the Nazis on their death camp prisoners has probably saved thousands of allied/US personnel...
...leading to some deeply conflicted discussions regarding the morality of using this "research", amongst other research, to save future lives.
"Blogger The Crack Emcee said...
The Zionists said Hamas has a Command and Control Center under the hospital in Gaza, but - being reminded of what a hidden Command and Control Center is actually like - I have serious doubts."
Ha ha. I'm glad Crack has a sense of humor. Or does he seriously get his education from a TV series? U.N.C.L.E. headquarters is to Al Shifa Hospital as agent Napoleon Solo is to a Hamas terrorist. Kind of a big step down, as in Hamas has no
Those who are pro Hamas have been highly critical of the evidence of Hamas's use of the Al Shifa hospital. Yet those Hamas supporters are completely satisfied and comfortable with the integrity of the casualty numbers released by the Gaza (Hamas) Health Ministry even though there is no structure or mechanism for the Health Ministry to collect accurate data. I believe the actual Ministry is located in Ramallah. Who is collecting their information? I suspect the only accurate numbers Hamas is collecting are the number of their own fighters they have lost. But they don't announce that number because they don't know and because many have died in failed rocket attacks which land back in Gaza and other explosive and tunnel mishaps. Is it half what they are declaring? Everything they announce is propaganda and manipulative.
What is happening to the people of Gaza is sad and tragic. Hamas is responsible for leading their people into this catastrophe, no matter how many people have died.
You don't destroy an idea, such as the once popular refrain, "The South Shall Rise Again," which is not believable any longer. The most noxious ideas self destruct when enough people realize how worthless that idea is. The idea dies when it has become obsolete. Sometimes it takes a decisive military victory to push the point forward sooner rather than later. This will be the fate of Hamas and its ilk.
I see Crack is on another roll here. He did this about 10 years right here at Althouse. He got so wound up about something now utterly forgettable. At least this time around he didn’t seem to be begging for money from the same people he’s alienating one-by-one. I predict he’ll start dominating each and every thread until he reaches his goal becoming a “ Mary.”
Crack, you’re starting to sound like an apologist for black youth sucker punching Hasidic Jews on the streets of NYC.
Crack is bombing the thread again.
Since we cannot convince him to take his meds, the best thing to do is not to feed his mania.
Hamas: ... to the sea.
Here's to Israel fulfilling their dream... hold your breath, Hamas.
The Israelis need a better suicide war cry… like Jehovah Ackbar
William writes, "There are some who claim that all that bombing hardened German resolve to resist and prolonged the war..."
That was Dr. Göbbels claim, wasn't it? Unsere Mauern sind kaputt, aber nicht unsere Herzen. But it was nonsense. What prolonged war? Two things, a brutal storm in the English Channel and the Warsaw Uprising.
On 19 June 1944, a powerful storm devasted the Normandy beaches, rendering the American Mulberry artificial harbor mostly inoperable. The resultant logistical shortfalls prevented many Allied units, particularly the Third Army, from advancing as fast as the Germans could retreat. This gave the Wehrmacht an opportunity to consolidate and reinforce their defenses of the Reich in the West. The delay in fuel deliveries also helped force the Allies to reach the Westwall almost two months later in 1944 than anticipated by the Overlord plan. The foggy overcast conditions were force multipliers to the Germans and obstacles to the Allies. The delays also benefited Hitler's "Autumn Mist" offensive. Whether the Ardennes campaign delayed the Allies or drained the Werhmacht's remaining lifeblood will be argued forever.
In the East, the Warsaw Uprising delayed the Russians for 63 days. While the Germans spent blood and treasure doing Stalin's work on the Poles, the Red Army sat and watched from the east bank of the Vistula, resting their troops and marshaling their supplies.
When launched on 6 June 1944, Overlord called for the conquest of the Nazi Reich by January 1945. Bad weather and Stalin's greed for empire conspired to delay that end by five months. If Allied bombing hardened the Germans, it didn't firm them up very much.
"It doesn't feel like mental derangement to me. It feels like a strength."
Althouse
Just one of many:
"It’s so good to see how badly the THIRD RATE MAGAZINE, The Atlantic, is doing. It’s failing at a level seldom seen before, even in the Publishing Business. False and Fake stories do it every time! They’ve got a rich person funding the ridiculous losses, but at some point, rich people get smart also. Steve Jobs would not be proud of his wife, Laurene, and the way she is spending his money. The Radical Left is destroying America!"
Trump 11/23/23
What planet are you living on, Ann?
A week after Hamas’ bloody, wide-ranging attack into Israel, Israel renewed calls on social media and in leaflets dropped from the air for Gaza residents to move south, while Hamas urged people to stay in their homes. Hundreds of thousands” of Palestinians heeded the warning and headed south.
20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims. These citizens have one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East. Why is that so if the Israelis have a policy of mass slaughter toward Arabs? Why are there Arabs in the Knesset but no Jews in the Gaza parliament? Why does Gaza have 4 times as many people as it originally had if the Israelis have been mowing them down like grass? Above all, why do Palestinian supporters find it necessary to deny their attacks on Israel? They attacked Israel in 1947, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, and 2006. Certainly argue if you like that the Palestinians were entitled to attack but why pretend various wars were Israeli attacks on Palestinians coming out of a clear blue sky? There's attack and response, tit for tat going on out there, isn't there? And finally, is Hamas an idea or is it blind brutal hatred leading to actions which are not allowed in Islam, namely, deliberate attacks on women and children and hiding among civilians in hospitals, schools and mosques? Perhaps an idea never dies but living to murder guts out a community.
The Crack Emcee said...
Paul said...
"Germans voted the Nazis into power,.."
Did not.
In 1932, Hindenburg dismissed Bruening and appointed Franz von Papen, a former diplomat and Center party politician, as chancellor. Papen dissolved the Reichstag again, but the July 1932 elections brought the Nazi party 37.3 percent of the popular vote, making it the largest political party in Germany. The Communists (taking votes from the Social Democrats in the increasingly desperate economic climate) received 14.3 percent of the vote. As a result, more than half the deputies in the 1932 Reichstag had publicly committed themselves to ending parliamentary democracy.
When Papen was unable to obtain a parliamentary majority to govern, his opponents among President Hindenburg's advisers forced him to resign. His successor, General Kurt von Schleicher, dissolved the Reichstag again. In the ensuing elections in November 1932, the Nazis lost ground, winning 33.1 percent of the vote (but still the LARGEST POLITICAL PARTY.) The Communists, however gained votes, winning 16.9 percent. As a result, the small circle around President Hindenburg came to believe, by the end of 1932, that the Nazi party was Germany's only hope to forestall political chaos ending in a Communist takeover. Nazi negotiators and propagandists did much to enhance this impression.
President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany.
And who voted for Hindenberg? He had the legal power to make Hitler Chancellor of Germany and Hindenberg was legally elected.
The Crack Emcee said...
"Right. Because Hamas is like Nazis. This is more like a fight in Game of Thrones between Peter Dinklage and "The Mountain" and y'all are talking like it's anything close to a fair fight. You're all crazy. "
Hamas is worse than Nazis... and like the Japanese they think they will get 72 virgins if they die for their Muhammad and Allah. Their Koran tells them to enslave and kill non believers.
So yea, UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.
As I said before, the only way to a lasting peace is for Israel to annex Gaza and the West Bank. Then they need to encourage some Palestinians to move to Israel and some Israelis to move to Gaza and the West Bank. And they need to put their boot up the ass of anyone supporting any kind of terrorism against the government or anti-Semitism. There needs to be one nation there, Israel. This is similar to what the Union did to the Confederates after the Civil War. It's ugly but it has to be done and is the only way to a lasting peace in the region.
The Crack Emcee said...
"You can't destroy an idea."
Yes, you can.
Germany and Japan stopped being - foaming at the mouth - anti-American after WWII. The key is to convince people that the idea is wrong. Which isn't hard when it comes to the false claims that Israel has created some "apartheid" state and is engaged in "genocide" against the Palestinians.
The Crack Emcee corrected said...
Hamas is one of many terrorist entities in the world to have legalized torture. Hamas is one of many terrorist organizations in the world to have legalized hostage taking (AKA "bargaining chips"). Hamas is one of many terrorist organizations in the world to have encouraged their enemies to do house demolitions by placing their command and control centers in civilian neighborhoods, hospitals and Mosques - a war crime. And Hamas is one of many terrorist organizations in the world to so regularly kill people, in mass, they call it "mowing the lawn."
But y'all go on and pretend that I wouldn't have been rooting for the Nazis in WWII, like the Arabs did. I see you.
I fixed it for you.
So...... Here I am, reading accounts about Gaza residents being lynched for the crime of being Israeli sympathizers, by Hamas (and their sympathizers). Gee. Just thought I'd head over here to see how this sensitive subject might be treated by their biggest fan.
Big Mike said...
"The right goal is seeing to it that nothing like October 7th ever happens again."
Yes, obliterate hamas to a man, wherever they are. Then punish Iran. And all of the supporters of the palestinians, those antisemite turds can bugger off.
"Yeah, those little Palestinians deserve to die"
Yes they do. Palestinians teach their children to gang rape women to death and to behead infant children. They most certainly deserve to die.
As do their enablers. You want to hang beside them, keep running your mouth.
"American Israelis already left. They leave everyday. Palestinian Americans cannot leave."
Norman Finklestein has challenged Douglas Murray and Ben Shapiro to debate. Murray declined, clutching his pearls and saying Finklestein disgusts him. No word from Ben Shapiro, whose latest online primer on Israeli history is currently being deconstructed by another professor - but only the first two minutes - to stress how many lies the right's notorious speed-talker could pack into such a short span of time. It should be available shortly.
@Quaestor: Thanks for an interesting and scholarly post. Here are my objections: It was the thinking of Churchill and FDR that saturation bombing of civilian populations in Japan and Germany would cause those populations to rise up against their rulers. It never happened. The British claimed that the bombing of their cities by the Germans hardened their resolve. Why wouldn't the same thing happen in Germany and Japan?....The murder of civilian non-combatants probably doesn't further any war aims. It certainly didn't achieve victory for Hamas, and, at a certain level of devastation, it might undermine Israeli war aims.....The only plus side I can see to our civilian bombing of Germany and Japan is that it did post war cause the civilian population to question the wisdom of their leaders....."Exterminate the brutes." War, especially an existential war, triggers an engulfing rage and mass killing itself becomes the war aim.
Blogger The Crack Emcee said...
"American Israelis already left. They leave everyday. Palestinian Americans cannot leave."
Ah. The eighth deadliest sin. Choosing the wrong side.
The good news is that when Hamas and their enablers are finally defeated then the Palestinians that are left can finally turn Gaza into the garden it was meant to be.
Gaza is a prison because Hamas needded it to be a prison.
rcocean said...
Here's the fact that you Israel supporters wont face. The Israeli's have bombed and killed 12,000 civilians. 4,000 of them kids.
@rcocean, let me know when you have proof that this really is a fact. I don’t do “trust us” with people who danced in the streets when the Twin Towers came down.
Rusty said...
"Ah. The eighth deadliest sin. Choosing the wrong side."
Being born a Palestinian American is "choosing the wrong side"?
Am I high or are you?
Rusty said...
"Gaza is a prison because Hamas needded it to be a prison."
Back that up with facts, Rusty. I got an expert on Hamas vs. your claims.
Prove him wrong.
Francesca Albanese, the United Nation’s Special Rapporteur on the Occupied Palestinian territories: Western media is living in an alternate reality
they lie to us, about the baptist hospital in real time, I'm not going to take their word about anything that they say happen like say deir yassin,
William writes, "Here are my objections"
Estimates of German civilians killed only by Allied strategic bombing have ranged from around 350,000 to 500,000. Given the population of Germany in 1939, that's a bit more than 0.7 percent. That's nothing more than expected mortality in a modern industrial society. Many died from the bombing who would have otherwise would have died from the flu. I know that sounds callous, but that's how you must think of things in a war like that. To put that in perspective Napoleon's Grande Armée lost 300,000 out of more than 500,000 at the start of the emperor's invasion of Russia. That's almost ten times the rate of German civilians killed by Allied bombing in WWII by the highest estimate, yet Napoleon raised another Grand Armée of 300,000 which held off the Third Coalition for two more years. Civilian deaths in France were higher still from normal causes exacerbated by the conditions of war.
I have seen no realistic speculations by either Roosevelt or Churchill that the Germans would be driven or could be driven to overthrow Hitler and his followers because of their strategic bombing campaign. That was not their purpose. The American goal was the creation of unsustainable logistic shortfalls in the Wehrmacht by the destruction of factories, railways, barges, trucks, and fuel stocks. The Americans believed that accurate high-altitude bombing in daylight could destroy those targets. Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe was quite capable of effectively defending Germany's economic infrastructure using a combination of anti-aircraft artillery and fighter interceptors. A glance at the Schweinfurt-Regensburg attack shows how effective the Luftwaffe was in 1943.
RAF bombers flying at night could only hit targets as big as cities. Individual factories were invisible to their best blind bombing radar system. However, their accuracy at hitting cities was poor as well. The RAF Bomber Command strategy was idling the factories by dispersing the workers. Air Marshal Arthur Harris called it de-homing. Most Germans would flee to shelters, but their homes would burn. Killing a crippling percentage of the German factory workers was impossible. This was learned by the British themselves during the Blitz. Even improvised shelters like the Underground stations were highly effective at reducing civilian casualties and never even approached crippling industrial activities. To accomplish Bomber Command's goal the devastation needed to be so complete that the factory workers could not dwell within any practical distance from their workplaces. They would flee to the countryside well away from the factories. To the Allies' frustration, the Germans learned to disperse manufacturing along with their urban population. De-homing didn't work. However, around-the-clock bombing of major enemy cities had a completely unanticipated effect of leaving the German ground forces in Russia very often undefended from the Red Air Force as a larger and larger proportion of Germany's counter-air strength was dedicated to the defense of the Reich and not to offensive operations. Stalin demanded a "second front" in 1942, and he got one -- over Germany.
I don't know what you've studied regarding the air war of 1939-1945, but it seems to have been more ideological than historical material. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
go with that Crack,
https://twitter.com/AdinHaykin1/status/1728843360029622625
Also, the primary goal of the daylight bomber offensive, from April 1943-1944 was the destruction of the Luftwaffe.
@Quaestor: You have an impressive fund of knowledge, and I enjoy reading your posts. Me, I was an English major. I have made no systematic study of anything. That might be all to the good. Marx was a student of history, and he seems to have gotten quite a lot wrong. Ditto Gibbons. He seems to have thought that Rome under the good Emperors was as good as it was ever going to get....I'll stick with some of my dilettante insights. The subtext of war is hatred. During WWII, people really, really hated the Germans and Japanese and wanted to kill as many of them as possible. It's a fact that civilian casualties were horrendous and, some people of substance have claimed that we could have hit more strategic targets than civilian populations. The one bomb of undeniable useful strategic value was the A-Bomb. That seems to be the one everyone objects, but that's the one bomb that actually ended a war....I wish Israel luck, and I don't think their targeting of Gaza has been indiscriminate or wanton. Perhaps the devastation they have created in Gaza will cause the population there to rethink some of their goals and tactics. Or perhaps they're breeding another generation of terrorists. I understand the rage of the Israelis and they should continue their campaign until all the hostages are released. However, they shouldn't, like Hamas, get too far gone in their hatred.
If they get too far gone, they can lose the propaganda war in America and, thus, everything......WWI ended in an Armistice. The French generals opposed the Armistice. They wanted to press on and have a victory parade down the wide avenues of Berlin.. If they had prevailed in their argument, there would have been thousands of extra casualties. Historians would have written learned tomes about the vindictiveness of Foch and Petain, but, on the plus side, there would have been no WWII. A lot more pointless casualties at the end of WWI would have spared the world a lot more pointless casualties. As noted, there are no abiding principles to be derived from the study of history.
narciso said...
"go with that Crack"
I did, and see nothing convincing there. Can you show me someone besting him in face-to-face debate on the issues? He appears to be taking on all comers, so - if he's as notoriously wrong as Zionists say - there should be some direct evidence of it. He was just on Piers Morgan and did well. Piers said he was intrigued by their discussion and wanted him back on. Finklestein dared anyone to debate him and called Ben Shapiro a coward and a liar. Afterwards, Douglass Murray said he was disgusted by him, but came off more like he was afraid of him.
The “Big Lie” about Gaza Is That The Palestinians Have Been the Aggressors
2018: Extended interview with scholar Norman Finkelstein, author of the new book, “Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom.” The book has just been published as Israel is facing a possible International Criminal Court war crimes probe over its 2014 assault on Gaza, which killed more than 2,100 Palestinians, including over 500 children.*
*That's more than Hamas killed on Oct 7, for those outraged over body counts.
Hamas is a cancer lovingly cultivated by Israel politicians now snapping at tucchus
rcocean said...
More death and genocide. Israel is NOT determined to "get rid of Hamas". They're determined to get rid of the 2 million gazans. That's why they killing thousands of civilians, bombing hospitals, and destroying 25-40 percent of the buildings in gaza. Not to mention cutting off food and water.
Go fuck yourself, you lying sack of shit
1: No country at war with another country provides food and water for the people of that country who they have not conquered. Good God, could you find a more stupid complaint than that?
2: "bombing hospitals". You worthless piece of shit.
A: The hospital wasn't bombed, it was the parking lot
B: The packing lot was bombed by a Hamas rocket
3: "They're determined to get rid of the 2 million gazans." If they wanted to get rid of them, or kill them, they'd be gone, or dead. So until they've done that, all you're showing is that, like a typical leftist, you're projecting on them what you want to do, which is murder all the Jews
4: It's a war. Hamas is hiding behind the civilians. Therefore, every single civilian death there is the fault of the war crimes of Hamas.
It is Hamas, your side, that wants and creates the dead civilians, on both side.
"as their first elderly Israeli captive said - they cared for all their needs and treated therm gently,...
So better than seniors nursing home patients during American COVID
William writes, "...there are no abiding principles to be derived from the study of history."
I could hardly disagree more strongly. As Thucydides noted (or Dionysius of Heraclea, like any succinct morsel of wisdom, it has many attributions) history is philosophy teaching by examples.
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