From a Justice Department press release, "Justice Department Sues SpaceX for Discriminating Against Asylees and Refugees in Hiring."
Exactly.
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) August 25, 2023
SpaceX was told repeatedly that hiring anyone who was not a permanent resident of the United States would violate international arms trafficking law, which would be a criminal offense.
We couldn’t even hire Canadian citizens, despite Canada being part of NORAD!
This…
पोस्ट्स
६६ टिप्पण्या:
The Deep State is trying to grind Musk between two separate cabinet-level agencies. Access to military technology and potential military technology is controlled under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and the Export Administration Regulations, which cover items that may ventually have military applications. And, yes, missile technology is very tightly controlled. A rocket motor capable of powering satellites into low earth orbit can put a nuclear warhead into downtown New York City.
The Department of State Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) interprets and enforces ITAR — not the DoJ. The related Export Administration Regulations are enforced and interpreted by the Bureau of Industry and Security in the Commerce Department, again, not the DoJ. The Department of Defense is also involved in the review and approval process. Physical enforcement of the ITAR (as well as all import and export laws of the United States) is performed by Homeland Security Investigations Special Agents, again not the DoJ.
The following is copied verbatim from an excellent summary in Wikipedia:
For practical purposes, ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military-related technologies (items listed on the U.S. Munitions List) may only be shared with US persons unless authorization from the Department of State is received to export the material or information to a foreign person. US persons (including organizations; see legal personality) can face heavy fines if they have, without authorization or the use of an exemption, provided foreign persons with access to ITAR-protected defense articles, services or technical data.
Getting back to the DoJ’s assertion that SpaceX’s claim to be bound by export control laws is wrong, is itself simply wrong.
We have so many bureaucratically created laws in this country, it’s impossible to function without breaking them.
The DoJustUs is going to destroy America. It’s fine; we deserve it.
Lawfare against political opponents is the new norm. The process is the punishment.
More Biden Administration lawfare. The only problem is that lawfare may not be effective against wealthy people who are just ornery enough to fight back. I’m betting on Musk in this fight.
Here's the most ridiculous quote from the DOJ press release:
"Asylees and refugees are migrants to the United States who have fled persecution. To obtain their status, they undergo thorough vetting by the United States government. Under the INA, employers cannot discriminate against them in hiring, unless a law, regulation, executive order or government contract requires the employer to do so. In this instance, no law, regulation, executive order or government contract required or permitted SpaceX to engage in the widespread discrimination against asylees or refugees that the department’s investigation found, as explained in the complaint."
I guess the PTB at the DOJ figured it would be a bridge too far to conduct a Gibson Guitars style SWAT team raid against SpaceX, so they limited their efforts to lawfare. This time.
This isn't just about weaponization of the DOJ. It's about incompetence in high places. Fearless Fosdick is in charge.
Al Capp would have a field day, assuming he could get his stuff syndicated.
Did Ayn Rand call it or what?
When I worked for NASA, we were given this ITAR scenario. A US citizen works for the Canadian Space Agency, which built the "Canada Arm" for Shuttle and Station. You need specifications for the ARM and ask for them. The US citizen CSA employee hands them to you. You find some mistakes and want to point them out. You cannot hand it back to the CSA employee without violating ITAR. You would first have to go to an ITAR official to clear the information to be transferred back to the Canadian Space Agency.
What I didn't know at the time was that I could simply make a home email server and transfer information with CSA or other foreign agents without a problem. I would just have to skip annual ITAR training.
The corrupt (Super Corrupt) DOJ under super-corrupt Merrick Garland - is ,,,super Corrupt.
The Biden admin has opened the southern border to 5-7 million illegal entrants. These illegals are destroying the nation... as planned.
You better hire them. You better pay for them. You better house them.
Also- Google is a very compliant and obedient leftist Democrat Red guard search engine. The corrupt leftist mob machine demand that ALL be obedient. Just Like Google.
Biden: "Where's that damn golden goose!" I should be surprised that this administration is so petty, short sighted, and destructive. But, in fact, I expect worse from them before we are done. I'm not even sure what I mean by "done" anymore.
And yet, we sit here and take it. Cowards. We are letting it burn right before our eyes.
I thought Musk was smart. When is going to realize the only legal way to avoid arrest is to change his policies and invoke the "I'm an important Democrat" exemption to all laws. (Of course, bribes to the Biden family also work.)
and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents
WELL! isn't THAT Special?
Good to know, that according to the US Government, lawful citizens like me are considered
(nearly) as important as illiterate men from Honduras (as long as the illiterate Hondurans are at the FRONT of the line)
If common sense is outlawed, only outlaws will have Common Sense.
C'mon DOJ.. you are an embarrassment! Every last one of you should be jettisoned into outer space.
so, serious Question..
What Jobs, exactly are these illiterate Hondurans going to DO at SpaceX?
Begley complains about lawfare against political opponents, meanwhile he did this during spring.
Of course Begley did they very thing he decries his political opponent for.
"A Nebraska attorney filed Wednesday an ethics complaint against State Sen. Megan Hunt.
David Begley, who filed the complaint, alleges she has a personal conflict in the debate over the Let Them Grow Act because her son is transgender."
Get out of the kitchen, Dave. You cannot stand the heat
I used to pity people who came from countries (and cities, like Chicago) where baksheesh was the organizing principle. Now I envy them. This kind of corruption we've evolved to is far more insidious and destructive.
@MadTownGuy, in point of fact not only do ITAR regulations require that the people involved be US citizens, it is my recollection (as a former government contractor) that individuals with dual citizenship, US and someplace else, are also proscribed.
"We have so many bureaucratically created laws in this country, it’s impossible to function without breaking them."
Declaration of Independence: "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance."
Every Republican (and Democratic for that matter) candidate for president should immediately release a statement promising to end the governmental persecution of Musk the day they enter office.
The most disturbing part of this is that the powers behind Biden are seemingly so certain that the fix is permanently in that they are not even remotely trying to hide the corruption. Like when Hitler locked up enough power to begin openly rounding up the Jews.
Xi gets what he paid for.
Does ITAR rhyme with Kafka?
Gilbar at 7.28am beat me to this:
"so, serious Question..
What Jobs, exactly are these illiterate Hondurans going to DO at SpaceX?"
I can't think of anything besides building maintenance/stoop labor type jobs.
Discovery is going to be lit!
for nearly 40 years, I have worked or owned firms in the Defense or IC space. Our policy had always been to hire only US Cits, and if fact only clearable US cits. Remember waiting nearly two years for the TS to come back on a talented Cit, born in Danang..
Guess I should expect to be cuffed next week.
And yes, that would extend to the secretaries and janitors.
This comes on the heels of multiple articles about how disturbing it is for one person ( especially an uncontrolled one like musk ) to control starlink. Articles from military, intelligence as well as overseas all relating to Ukraine. This is a warning to musk to toe the line and do what they want with respect to Ukraine. To force him to allow Ukraine to use starlink to offensively attack Russia in Russian territory. He has refused them, this is the beginning of their offensive against him.
And to NOT talk to Putin or anyone from Russia. And do NOT say anything about a peaceful settlement plan or desire.
This is the proverbial, nice space agency you got there, shame if anything happens to it tactic.
I wish he would remove starlink from Russia and refuse to supply the space station immediately. Our government has become a tyrant, freedom loving people must refuse.
If the laws and regulations conflict, and I'm sure there are many such conflicts, it seems to me SpaceX erred on the side of caution.
What's the downside of not hiring an asylee? Somebody doesn't get a job at SpaceX and goes on to do something else for a living.
What's the downside of hiring the wrong asylee? Terrorists or hostile state actors get critical technology that could potentially result in mass casualties somewhere in the world.
Elon is finding out what happens when the big guy doesn’t get his cut.
I can't think of anything besides building maintenance/stoop labor type jobs.
@gilbar, @Dan, Hell !NO. Spies acting as maintenance or janitorial staff could find materials discarded in trash cans that can be exploited by adversarial countries. They might find mistakenly unlocked safes and rifle through them. They could uncover materials that would allow key engineers to be blackmailed. That’s why the ITAR regulations are so stringent.
The most disturbing part of this is that the powers behind Biden are seemingly so certain that the fix is permanently in that they are not even remotely trying to hide the corruption. Like when Hitler locked up enough power to begin openly rounding up the Jews.
@tommyesq, + 1
Mark said...
Begley complains about lawfare against political opponents, meanwhile he did this during spring.
Lefty Mark hates it when Democrat methods are used against Democrats.
Has the Biden Admin come out with any figures as to how many asylum seekers and refugees have the requisite skill set to actually work for SpaceX in any capacity beyond janitorial work?
Thought so.
diversity, equity, inclusion (DEI)... civil rights, second.
Does that mean NK has the know how to build a missile that could reach the US, they just don’t have the tools and materials nor the money to get the tools and materials? Or is NK a figment of our dystopian imagination. Maybe that’s it.
So the DOJ and ITAR have created conflicting and mutually exclusive laws for us proles to obey.
Nice to see that Catch-22 has finally been established as the prevailing law of the land.
I bet even Lavrentry Beria would be impressed by our current government.
They can’t arrest Musk so they are attempting the next best thing… for them.
#Trumpchallenge
Mark:
Megan Hunt deserved it. She filibustered every single bill in the NE Legislature. She tried to get Medicaid to pay for her daughter’s sex change operation. I told her to file a lawsuit in federal court.
The bill banning sex changes for minors passed despite her filibuster.
My ethics complaint was dismissed without a hearing because the benefit she sought was a “future event.” She got free publicity. I got threats. Lot’s of them.
It was, in a way, interesting to see how damn dumb most people are. One state Senator said family was “off limits” when the statute says “immediate family.” The other thing was people claimed farmers couldn’t vote on agriculture legislation when there is exception for “broad categories of the public at large.” The number of trans minors in NE is not 500 people, if that; 0.6% according to the only study.
But I already knew nearly all liberals are idiots. They foam at the mouth when challenged. The Left is insane.
I suspect that the feds want Mr. Musk to hire Mexican engineers and designers, among other things. I worked a contract for a company where my job was to redo the work of 5 Mexican engineers and @10 designers. They used 2D AutoJunk, I mean AutoCad, and it took them over 2 years work to finish the 400 or so drawings. The work was horribly done, and I re-did it on Unigraphics 3D in roughly 5 months.
Mexican designers and engineers aren't the worst in the world, but to avoid accusations of racism I won't say who is...
Here is my theory. The DOJ official who is probably in charge of enforcing ITAR is Jay Bratt, branch chief of the DOJ’s Counterintelligence and EXPORT branch in its National Security Division. If his name is familiar, it’s because he has a second hat - of Deputy Special Counsel to Jack Smith. Yes, the same Jay Bratt who refused to give Trump’s attorneys extensions of time or allow rolling production in his MAL document case, then used that to sign and issue the MAL search warrant, then used the documents he found as the basis for the criminal indictment of Trump he signed in FL. Taking up even more of his time, this last week, he was slapped down by Judge Cannon for running not one, but two grand juries, the second one out of district in DC. She also has his feet to the fire getting security clearances for Trump’s lawyers, and able to see each and every document involved before trial.
Now my theory - Bratt has been so busy with his case against Trump that he wasn’t able to make a call over to the far left crazies in the DOJ’s Civil Rights Division, to keep them from embarrassing themselves.
Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, and briefly attended the University of Pretoria before immigrating to Canada at age 18, acquiring citizenship through his Canadian-born mother.
Elon became a USA citizen in 2002
=============
had he remained green card holder he could not even run SpaceX!!??
Tim: "The DoJustUs is going to destroy America. It’s fine; we deserve it."
Well, at least "81 million" of us deserve it.
Near 20 years ago, the DOJ "lawyers" were prosecuting a guy who had sen flyers given out to the public at a conference open to the public on some ITAR technology to people in China. DOJ was going after him for unlicensed export under ITAR regulations. I was involved in export controls for my agency. When I heard of it, I told the general counsel at the department who was the legal point on this export control that if the DOJ were successful in this prosecution I would have no choice but to advise that we no longer permit Chinese national scientists visit our facilities. Or implement expensive procedures to ensure they could never use, or see the manuals for our export controlled equipment.
And one of those items was a heave, roll, pitch sensor device that was from a Canadian company but they had repair labs in the US that only employed US persons as the equipment couldn't be sent to Canada or to Canadians without an ITAR export license. One presumes the Canadian executives had an export license to see the equipment.
This export stuff is very circular. You know, that when Obama's ATF was facilitating the straw purchase of firearms that they knew were going to cross the Mexican border they were violating ITAR regulations as they didn't have a license from State's DDTC. And it was a tell that with the news coverage of guns making it into Mexico but the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls were not investigating or going have those "exporting" the guns. They can impose administrative and civil penalties and never go near a criminal prosecution.
Has the Biden Admin come out with any figures as to how many asylum seekers and refugees have the requisite skill set to actually work for SpaceX in any capacity beyond janitorial work?
That just means that all of the janitorial, cafeteria and groundskeeping staffs have to be illegal aliens.
"So the DOJ and ITAR have created conflicting and mutually exclusive laws for us proles to obey.
Nice to see that Catch-22 has finally been established as the prevailing law of the land."
Ayn Rand mentioned this, too.
"Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers..."
I spent a significant amount of time yesterday familiarizing myself with ITAR and its regulations and enforcement mechanisms. Musk and SpaceX appear to have followed the regulations involved with ITAR to the letter, and all I know about what SpaceX did with regards to its hiring practices come from the DoJ's own court filings. In other words, the allegations of what SpaceX did, made by the DoJ itself, match exactly what SpaceX was supposed to do with regards to following the ITAR regulations. In short, SpaceX is being sued by one arm of the federal government for obeying another arm of the federal government. This lawsuit should be tossed by the first judge who hears it, but it won't be if the judge assigned to the case is a Democrat.
Musk was right- this is 100% malicious prosecution, or the DoJ person responsible for this is 100% a moron.
Of course the DOJ wants Musk to hire foreign nationals. Joe "China owns me!" Biden is in the pockets of Russia, Ukraine, and China, just to name a few.
Like others here, I've had decades of experience complying with ITAR law. Even a coffee-stand operator should be a U.S. Person (a citizen or a green-card holder). There will be conversations around the coffee stand that could be an illegal export if the operator was a refugee or asylee.
This is nothing but lawfare against Elon Musk. Joe Biden is a traitor.
I could have sworn you have to show your employer the documents that prove your legally authorized to work in the US... Illegals have no such documentation, like social security card, green card, , so...
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15#en_US_2023_publink1000294371
Eligibility for employment. You must verify that each new employee is legally eligible to work in the United States. This includes completing the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification.
" I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification
Use Form I-9 to verify the identity and employment authorization of individuals hired for employment in the United States. All U.S. employers must properly complete Form I-9 for each individual they hire for employment in the United States. This includes citizens and noncitizens. Both employees and employers (or authorized representatives of the employer) must complete the form.....
"On the form, an employee must attest to their employment authorization. The employee must also present their employer with acceptable documents as evidence of identity and employment authorization. The employer must examine these documents to determine whether they reasonably appear to be genuine and relate to the employee, then record the document information on the employee’s Form I-9. Certain employers who choose to remotely examine the employee’s documentation under a DHS-authorized alternative procedure rather than via physical examination must indicate they did so by checking the box provided. The list of acceptable documents can be found on the last page of the form. Employers must retain Form I-9 for a designated period and make it available for inspection by authorized government officers."
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15#en_US_2023_publink1000294371
You can get Form I-9 at USCIS.gov/Forms. For more information, go to the USCIS website at USCIS.gov/I-9-Central, or call 800-375-5283 or 800-767-1833 (TTY).You may use the Social Security Number Verification Service (SSNVS) at SSA.gov/employer/ssnv.htm to verify that an employee name matches an SSN. A person may have a valid SSN but not be authorized to work in the United States. You may use E-Verify at E-Verify.gov to confirm the employment eligibility of newly hired employees.
And yet now the DOJ says illegals can work on export controlled tech jobs??? Sure buddy... just wave the magic wand and make it all retro-active! Thus Musk violated the law retroactively!
The DOJ also requires U.S. citizem status:
https://twitter.com/ATabarrok/status/1695459110345687382
That's more restrictive than ITAR law.
Dan from Madison said...
Gilbar at 7.28am beat me to this:
"so, serious Question..
What Jobs, exactly are these illiterate Hondurans going to DO at SpaceX?"
"I can't think of anything besides building maintenance/stoop labor type jobs."
Not even then. Even warehouses today have so much automated equipment it takes weeks of traing just clean around it and not get hurt. It takes even more time to teach them not to break anything. And that's if they understand english. That's why entry level in these places are 15-20 bucks an hour.
For anyone experienced in ITAR, of course SPaceX did not hire non-permanent residents. ITAR is complicated but at its heart protects US technology from foreign nationals and governments. It is designed to block information going outside the US on sensitive technologies. DoJ actually said this in the complaint: "But export control laws and regulations do not prohibit or restrict employers from hiring asylees and refugees; those laws treat asylees and refugees just like U.S. citizens." Uh, that it is precisely what it prohibits and there is zero in any law or ITAR that says it does not apply to asylees and refugees.
If you want get technically legal about, the DoJ activists did not read the statute they cited, which do NOT include asylees or refugees as U.S. persons, but lawfully admitted for permanent residence or is granted final asylum. The next section, 8 USC 1324b(4) literally says "Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, it is not an unfair immigration-related employment practice for a person or other entity to prefer to hire, recruit, or refer an individual who is a citizen or national of the United States over another individual who is an alien if the two individuals are equally qualified."
By the way, I noticed this ridiculous lawsuit was brought by DoJ Civil Rights Division, Immigrant and Employee Rights Section. Uh, does the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section even know this was filed?? Would not be the first time Civil Rights Division filed an idiotic lawsuit without bothering to inform or consult with the experts.
Big Mike said...
@gilbar, @Dan, Hell !NO. Spies acting as maintenance or janitorial staff could find materials discarded in trash cans that can be exploited by adversarial countries
Not disagreeing with you on the ability to spy through trash (gilbar used to work 2nd shift.. You'd be surprised what he 'found' in the 'garbage'*
My point is: for an illiterate Honduran (that can't Even READ Spanish).. What USE would he be,
even As a janitor?
Assuming that he's NOT a spy.. WHAT GOOD would he be? Can You imagine training an Illiterate Spanish speaker in how to mop up around Rocket Components? Scary!
'found' in the 'garbage'*
gilbar? how DID you get all those IBM manuals? "well, a lot of them were Actually IN the trash"
gilbar? how DID you get a IBM System370 158 nameplate? Must weigh 10lbs! "That's NONE of Your Business"
Mark, in the spirit of most logic-challenged left commentators here, conflates Dave Begley's ethics complaint, taken as a private citizen with no police powers, with lawfare, which by definition can only be engaged in by government agencies acting outside their constitutional remit. Not sure how this simple fact evaded his mental process, but it did.
It would serve em right if just cuts them off. "OK. Lob your own shit into orbit."
That's the best thing about being the best at what you do.
I already decided that the DOJ was essentially a criminal organization.
Now they are overtly engaging in crime.
My point is: for an illiterate Honduran (that can't Even READ Spanish).. What USE would he be, even As a janitor?
@gilbar, you think someone engaging in industrial espionage can’t be coached to pass as an “illiterate Honduran”? He’ll, I can’t read Spanish either.
System 370? Let me know when you have something from a 7090 or 7094.
This lawsuit seems ludicrous. Aside from the issues that previous commentors have more expertly addressed, I'm curious whether serving a company with a lawsuit is SOP for the DOJ? If the DOJ is aware of potential violations of hiring law, do they not send a demand letter first and give the target an opportunity to respond?
"We have so many bureaucratically created laws in this country, it’s impossible to function without breaking them."
That's why, in His Wisdom, on the Eighth Day God created lawyers.
no redR or blueD american has visited CIS document support center where migrants are processed.
the notice there sys ... You may use E-Verify at E-Verify.gov to confirm the employment eligibility of newly hired employees.
even if this returns negative 'employee' cannot be 'terminated' but must be given opportunity to clarify, etc.
Musk was right- this is 100% malicious prosecution, or the DoJ person responsible for this is 100% a moron.
I could tolerate the Administrative State, after all I am 85, but only if they were competent, which they aren't.
Bruce Hayden: "Now my theory - Bratt has been so busy with his case against Trump that he wasn’t able to make a call over to the far left crazies in the DOJ’s Civil Rights Division, to keep them from embarrassing themselves."
The moron marxist democratical buffoon at the DOJ Civil Rights Division behind this is...(drumroll please)..
Pamela Susan Karlan!
She is the principal deputy assistant attorney general in the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice.
This role was the payoff to her for her role in the first Trump dem/GOPe Sham-peachment in 2019.
She is the little Stalinist that thought bringing up Barron Trump during the hearings would be such fun..and it was for a certain LLR that will remain nameless who became very, very...titillated... at any mention of Barron Trump's name.
So thats the chick running the Catch-22 Op against Elon on the DOJ side...where they dont even have jurusdiction over ITAR enforcement.
Lawfare. Open-ended, endlessly funded, without limits, Lawfare against all political opponents.
Michael K said...
Musk was right- this is 100% malicious prosecution, or the DoJ person responsible for this is 100% a moron.
"I could tolerate the Administrative State, after all I am 85, but only if they were competent, which they aren't."
Our country is being run by a bunch of plain high school girls who weren't asked to the prom. Hence the WaPo.
"Big Mike said...
janitorial staff could find materials discarded in trash cans that can be exploited by adversarial countries."
In the case of SpaceX, or other Defense contractor, even the waste materials have important IP
I would be shocked if we allowed people without clearances to work on tech which is basically guided missile tech. How would these people get clearances? And if we do allow that, we shouldn't.
This reminds me of Oppenheimer. First half of the movie shows how sketchy and tied in with communism a bunch of the scientists are. Then in the second half, you were supposed to think it was sad that the government started yanking clearances once the project was accomplished. Of course they started yanking clearances!
And of course you can't have people working on guided missile tech without clearances. Geeze.
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