१५ जून, २०२३
"Republican presidents have accepted the canard that the D.O.J. and F.B.I. are — quote — 'independent.'"
"They are not independent agencies. They are part of the executive branch. They answer to the elected president of the United States."
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"They are not independent agencies. They are part of the executive branch. They answer to the elected president of the United States."
Unless that president is named "Trump", apparently.
"They are part of the executive branch."
They are. The FBI is strictly an executive creation in the first place.
"paradigm-shifting"
True. The current paradigm is that DoJ works for Dems when Dems are in charge (Bobby K, wingman Holden, etc.) and is independent when Republicans are in charge.
The canard is useful, if the attempt is to make it seem as though it was not president Biden arresting his political rival and former president Trump.
Biden’s name is not even mentioned in the indictment…
Heck, Biden is not even the controlling legal authority… or something.
In other words, the GOP should "catch up with the Democrats" said deSantis.
I'm sure that's what the Times writer said next, right? No? Perhaps if we said that the next GOP president (should that ever happen again, though the heavens fall) should make sure the bureaus follow the wishes and directions of the executive branch exactly as scrupulously as they have done for the Democrats currently in power, with a similar degree of operational security.
How's that?
He's right.
That's not to say they should not perform their duties without favoritism.
In reality, the DOJ and FBI work for Democrats and the Uni-party. They protect their own wealth and interests. As Tucker Carlson recently stated, it's why the counties surrounding Washington DC are so wealthy. Why stop wars when wars make you money?
At every turn during the Trump Presidency they tried thwarting the agenda that the American people legitimately elected him to implement.
The bribes and pay for play with the Biden family are real. The Clinton Foundation money laundering was real. Trump did not weaponize the DOJ or FBI against them. He was to busy swatting "Russian collusion" flies.
But, there's really not much that can be done. The Presidential election voting system is perfectly rigged in five needed swing states. And all of this is perfectly ok with college educated white suburban women.
The former "soccer moms" that used to swing back and forth based on the personal need at the time, are now entrenched on the left. As long as that is as that is a large block of support, the corruption will continue, and it will get worse.
I"m always reminded of a French restaurant skit with the tourist lady telling the waiter "I'll have the canard."
Unexampled accomplishment sounds like much-needed gap.
DeSantis is technically right. But DOj and FBI certainly operate as if they are unaccountable to anyone, and therefore independent in the sense that "FU, we'll do what we want." CIA and NSA too. Dudes like Clapper and Brennan recognize no authority.
When has DOJ actually been independent in name or fact? When Kennedy named his baby brother attorney general at the age of 35? DOJ independence is something prosecutors like to tell themselves, and a fiction elected politicians like to go along with so they can avoid democratic accountability for bureaucratic screw ups. And I feel like this notion of DOJ independence is a comparatively recent thing. Stuff like the Saturday Night Massacre is actually a clear demonstration that DOJ is not an independent agency -- the options were comply with Nixon's orders or resign, which wouldn't be consistent with actual independence. I think the idea took root maybe jn the 1990s (to help Clinton avoid responsibility for debacles like Waco or the Elian Gonzalez case) and was only further encouraged by Bush II and Obama. But I wasn't paying attention in the 80s, on account of being a child, so maybe Reagan and Bush I had similar situations they needed to weasel out of. Anyhow, recent cases like SEC v. Lucia and Seila Law v. CFPB have also chipped away at the pretense of administrative independence.
The Fbi, originally the "bureau of investigation" was born as a corrupt political police in 1908. It was implemented against the will of Congress by AG Bonaparte (yes, one of those Bonapartes) at the behest of t. Roosevelt. (the allegedly good one)
It later got into crime fighting more as a PR move than anything. For 115 years it has been a political police.
From Dave weiner's history of the Fbi "enemies"
By law, Bonaparte had to ask the House and the Senate to create this new bureau. “The Department of Justice has no executive force, and, more particularly, no permanent detective force under its immediate control,” Bonaparte wrote to Congress; it was thus “assuredly not fully equipped for its work.” He formally sought the money and authority to create “a small, carefully selected, and experienced force.”
On May 27, 1908, the House emphatically said no. It feared the president intended to create an American secret police. The fear was well-founded. Presidents had used private detectives as political spies in the past.
“American ideas of government” prohibited “spying on men and prying into what would ordinarily be considered their private affairs,” said Representative Joseph Swagar Sherley, a Kentucky Democrat. Representative Walter I. Smith, an Iowa Republican and later a federal appeals court judge, objected strongly to the creation of a “system of espionage” in America. Representative John J. Fitzgerald, a New York Democrat, warned against “a central police or spy system in the federal government.” Representative George E. Waldo, a New York Republican, said it would be “a great blow to freedom and to free institutions if there should arise in this country any such great central secret-service bureau as there is in Russia.”
Congress banned the Justice Department from spending a penny on Bonaparte’s proposal.
The attorney general evaded the order. The maneuver might have broken the letter of the law. But it was true to the spirit of the president.
John lgb Henry
The Twitter files show the paradigm-shifting occurred sometime ago. The DOJ/FBI spied on the Trump campaign in 2016 under Crossfire Hurricane, using a FISA warrant on Carter Page with 17 errors of emission. The FBI then arrested Trump's National Security Advisor based on affidavit claiming he lied to the FBI, an affidavit doctored by the FBI to contain false information. Meanwhile, the FBI continued spying on the Trump transition with Crossfire Hurricane, except now the FISA warrants depended on the Hillary Clinton campaign financed Steele Dossier created by foreign intelligence agents and never verified by the FBI.
But this wasn't when the paradigm-shift. Recently, we've learned that the DOJ sat on a whistleblower complaint that Joe Biden as Vice-President received $5 million from a Russian Intelligence agent.
Has anyone here ever read the Fbi charter or enabling legislation?
Federal agencies are supposed to be authorized by Congress. My understanding is that the Fbi was never authorized. A request to authorize its predessor, the Bureau of Investigation was roundly and loudly rejected by congress when proposed in 1908.
I may be wrong. Can anyone point me to the original legislation authorizing the creation of the Fbi? Or predecessor?
John lgb Henry
Stating the obvious.
What DeSantis doesn't realize is how corrupt our institutions are. The lawyers are all Democrats. They are because the Universities are run by Democrats for Democrats. Republicans are weeded out before they even GET to a law school.
Our tech companies know PRECISELY who is and who isn't "on the team." They're monitoring EVERYTHING you say and do to make sure NOBODY gets in who they don't want on the inside.
Even if DeSantis somehow won, and somehow decided to exercise authority over the Justice Department all the attorneys would quit; knowing that if they don't they'll never work in a law firm ever again. That's a powerful motivator. #Cancelling people works. People have mortgages and kids in school. They need their jobs.
What is going to be needed are EXTRA-JUDICIAL measures. Measures that Democrats historically have been willing to do (Obama's ordering of the murder of American citizens with zero due process during his Presidency, for example), but that Republicans NEVER do.
Republicans have never had the balls to do these things. And I don't think DeSantis has them either. Certainly Trump didn't. He's too "new money" to understand how to be a pipe-hittin' n... well Tarantino said it best.
A pipe-hitter is what's needed.
Ron Desantis is right, the DOJ has always been part of the executive branch and the President is in charge. It's right there in the constitution. Look it up if you don't believe me. We all know the NYT is only arguing for an illusory 'independence' because, at the moment a Democratical president is in charge, the DOJ is doing his bidding by persecuting his enemies, and it serves the Times' purposes to pretend that this persecution is somehow free from political influence.
Gavin Newson recently met with Texas Sheriff Javier Salazar of Bexar County to after he filed charges against DeSantis for flying migrants to Democrat run sanctuary cities.
Does DeSantis and his supporters really think he is immune from Democrat lawfare??
Sheriff's Salazar's office filed charges in early June with a statement saying: 'The charge filed is Unlawful Restraint and several accounts were filed, both misdemeanor and felony.'
'At this time, the case is being reviewed by the DA's office,' the statement adds.
It's going to get worse. You can pretend they will only go after Trump.
LOL!
The FBI has shown itself to be Biden's Gestapo and Merrick Garland is Biden's "Wingman" and trying to jail Trump - his probable opponent in 2024. But its Trump who's the Radical and going to destroy the FBI/DOJ indpendence. More crazy gaslighting and lies from America's Pravda.
The idea that the DOJ is independent of the POTUS is fairly new idea. JFK appointed his brother as AG. Nixon gave the job to his campaign manager - John Mitchell. Of course, this idea only operates with Republican Presdients. They're supposed to respect the independence of the DOJ/FBI. Meanwhile, at least since Clinton, the Democrats use the FBI/DOJ as a weapon and consider the FBI/DOJ part of their team. Remember when hundreds of private/sensitive FBI files on everyone in DC mysteriously ended up in the Clinton White House?
And because the DOJ/FBI are both run by liberal Democrats (or phony "Life long Republicans) the Democrats presidents can be somewhat hands off. They know the DOJ/FBI underlings will pursue the Liberal/Left agenda.
They didn't do their job when Trump was President, and for that, they should ALL be fired, and the ones working under Trump should be imprisoned for setting him up for their coup.
Little Ron is dreaming. Unless he IS a Rino, they will go after him too.
Frankly, I'd go with the former Navy JAG officer Ron DeSantis, on this one. They are most certainly not independent.
The FBI reports to the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence. Both the AG and DNI report directly to the President (Biden). The AG sets the policies and priorities of the DoJ. They report to the President.
If this is the NY Times definition of independent, then Rob Reiner is an independent voter.
There is no independence of the DOJ and FBI from the WH when a Dem is President. We know this because they both do exactly what the FJB WH wants. They quash investigations into Hunter Biden’s laptop, that implicates his father, while using LawFare fabricated criminal cases to attack his political enemies. And have violated centuries of legal precedent and Constitutional protections to jail the J6 protesters for extended periods of time in deplorable conditions, whose only sin was protesting the stolen election, while, of course, ignoring AntiFA and BLM organized violence. They refused to turn over vast quantities of exonerating information on a timely basis, including video that showed that the whole thing was a setup. That is not an independent DOJ and FBI.
If they are independent, they sure work for Democratic interests instead of the country's.
Remember that line "country over party?"
Think about Comey, FBI, Russiagate and ask yourself if they follow that or not?
Peter Strozk, FBI agent in charge of the Crossfire Hurricane wiretapping of the Trump campaign declares to his DOJ lover, "we won't let Trump be elected President." That's the kind of independence the NYT wants.
Independent ONLY when a republican is in office.
We should have stuck to the spoils system- every time a new party takes the executive branch, every worker from the prior executive branch is automatically fired and replaced the first day in office. All the civil service laws did was entrench one party in the permanent deep state. Give the Democrats credit- they knew what they were doing and played the game much smarter than the GOP.
I'm old enough to remember when the AG was supposed to be the President's wingman?
What the FBI's Trump document "Trove" actually looks like.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2023/06/14/is-this-proof-the-trump-indictment-is-a-scam-n1703353
Law enforcement has always had one foot in the Judicial Branch’s independence. It is that independence that arouses the anger of the dictators. The dictatorship method is absolute authority in Big Brother. OBEY OR YOU WILL BE ELIMINATED.
So we will continue to see every Biden move crafted by Obama.
Not 'accepting a canard' it's operating under the delusion.
The Democrats and the DC establishment, I repeat myself, always want agencies independent when a Republican is President. DOJ, FBI and CIA are just at the top of the list.
Mr. Trump does, too, though he’s never been caught reading the Federalist Papers.
How snarky! "Paper of Record" indeed...
They are not independent agencies. They are part of the executive branch. They answer to the elected president of the United States.”
Every Republican has now seen what the Deep State can do to their presidency. No Republican President (Trump or otherwise) will allow themselves to be hampered by the DOJ.
I demand parity. I wanted Trump, and I want the next republican president to have a DOJ just like the Obama DOJ. I want the Attorney General to be the President's Wingman. I want DOJ Inpector General reports that indicate that the president's friend in Sacramento violated the law to have nothing done to them, I want the Attorney General to run guns into a foreign power for the purpose of altering domestic policy without informing the other government. I want the IRS to target the idological enemies of the Administration. I want the Attorney General to get a Contempt of Congress referral and for the DOJ to say "oh, hell no." I want the voting rights agency to ignore cases of intimidation in Administration friendly districts. I want investigations into local police to drag out as long as possible so that internet media can get a "Hand Up" craze to grip the nation.
I demand that whoever the next Republican president is, they do all of that.
The DOJ and FBI are independent like the NYT is objective.
BarrySanders20 said something So Untrue, as to be sarcastic or clueless ...
DeSantis is technically right. But DOj and FBI certainly operate as if they are unaccountable to anyone, and therefore independent in the sense that "FU, we'll do what we want." CIA and NSA too. Dudes like Clapper and Brennan recognize no authority.
The FBI OBVIOUSLY operates like they are directly accountable to the Democrat Party
Just read their motto: Schild und Schwert der Partei
Oh wait! that's the motto of the Stasi.. The FBI's motto is The Shield and Sword of The Party.
Dudes like Clapper and Brennan do WHATEVER the DNC Tells them to do
It will always be a struggle controlling an agency of civil servants, because they know the system inside-out, and are not hampered by term limits.
I wonder if the best strategy for a Republican President, newly-elected, would be to re-locate the domestically-focused agencies by Presidential Order. Stick the FBI in St. Louis - that's one of the worst cesspits in the US for corruption, as we are presently finding out. But keep the DOJ in Washington. Make each civil servant that's willing to re-locate, re-interview for their job. Include all the nicest profiling features of FBI examinations, tailored to weed out the worst partisans.
I think that only Trump would have the testicular fortitude to do this, though. But just think of the effects, with Agriculture in Kansas, Energy in Texas (if not dissolved), Education in Phillie, so on.
Thank you, John Henry.
The idea that the FBI has ever been anything but a corrupt fiefdom is absurd. Hoover ran the FBI as a blackmail collection organization, with the sole intention of preserving his own power. As he was a crossdresser who partied with mafiosi, he was vulnerable to blackmail himself. The modern FBI is not as tightly controlled as when he ran it, but it is fully as corrupt as it ever was.
JFK appointed his brother as AG. Nixon gave the job to his campaign manager - John Mitchell.
JFK gave the AG job to his campaign manager, who happened to be his brother.
Nixon justified John Mitchell by citing RFK as precedent.
John LGB Henry
Comey clearly lied to President Trump about the Steele Dossier and how it was being used to target Trump. Constitutionally, how is it illegal for a member of Trump's cabinet to lie to the FBI but not illegal for the FBI to lie to the President?
First, there's very little chance of there even being another Republican president. Ever. (Cf demographics, election law changes) Second, if Blormf isn't taken down by this latest lawfare attack the PTB will see that there's an airplane crash, stroke, coronary event, or a lucky shot sniper ala' JFK. We aren't voting our way out of this. Act accordingly.
I date the "independence" canard to when Hillary & friends sicced the FBI on the WH Travel Office in '93 to give cover to installing Clinton cronies in place of the permanent staff. TPTB created the idea that in future, WH personnel would have to direct the FBI through the WH Counsel. Two years later, we found out the FBI had sent "BY MISTAKE," at WH request, 900 confidential Republican dossiers to Clinton cronies, who were fired but not prosecuted. If anyone at the FBI was penalized, it wasn't publicized.
nice squirrel set out by DeSantis for R base to chase! who will never ask if JAG independent?
Yes, the DOJ is filled with Dems, esp near the top. Has been at least since Obama, who intentionally, and very openly, embedded a number of high level Dem activists at the top, right below the political appointees (who were replaced by Trump nominees). But the FBI has traditionally had a lot more Republicans - except that they tend to be internationalist GOPe. Peter Strzok, James Comey, Christopher Wray, etc. Cold Warriors, even after the fall of the Soviet Union. I think that they really believe that they are saving America (probably from the Russian Menace). So, they back Internationalist Dems, instead of Isolationist Republicans, like Trump, believing that they are the worse threat, and longing for a Globalist GOPe President like the two Bushes
I wonder if the best strategy for a Republican President, newly-elected, would be to re-locate the domestically-focused agencies by Presidential Order.
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He can't. Any move would be such a massive undertaking that he'd have to have congressional support.
Blogger Leland said...
"Recently, we've learned that the DOJ sat on a whistleblower complaint that Joe Biden as Vice-President received $5 million from a Russian Intelligence agent."
Put up or shut up.
Blogger Harun said...
"If they are independent, they sure work for Democratic interests instead of the country's.
Remember that line "country over party?"
Think about Comey, FBI, Russiagate and ask yourself if they follow that or not?'
Comey working for democratic interests:
https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2016/10/30/nytsat.png
DeSantis is half right.
"They" answer to the D pres. only.
De Santis is wrong - I hope he understands why.
The federal goverment (including the DoJ and FBI) is indeed independent of the President. It ought not to be, but it is. The feds do not serve Dem Presidents because they are slaves to elected Dem Presidents, they follow their own independent policy. This aligns well with the policies a Dem president would like to follow, because Dem Presidents and the federal bureaucracy have very similar political views. A Dem President sails with the wind. The wind happens to carry him to where he wants to go, but that's because the winds are blown by the federal bureaucracy. Ths is even more obvious than usual with the Biden Presidency - no one seriously imagines he has any input to policy. He is literally President Noneoftheabove, just a nonentity figurehead. They protect him because a non existent President doesn't interfere.
Meanwhile a GOP president is sailing against the wind. Every yard of progress is hard fought against strong winds from the feds. But mostly the GOP President isn't even aware of what the federal bureaucracy is doing during "his Presidency." All that business of the feds co-ordinating Big Tech efforts to suppress dangerous misnformation - ie dissenting voices. That didn't start in 2021 when Biden took office. It was going on during the Trump Presidency. Unbeknownst to him.
So no, the feds are independent and they are not slavish poodles for Dem Presidents. Dem Presidents are slavish poodles for them.
What the NYT will never acknowledge is that the DOJ was corrupted by Obama, his wingman Erik Holder and Bill Clinton's friend Loretta Lynch.
The DOJ is part of the executive branch and has always been answerable to the president but most took a hands off approach to going after their enemies until Obama came along. Since Obama's people are the true executive branch in this administration, not FJB, they're carrying on with Obama's policies of using the DOJ against his political enemies.
Hoover used to hire agents from Fordham and BYU. Neither of those schools are what they were even in the 80s.
Hoover used to hire agents from Fordham and BYU. Neither of those schools are what they were even in the 80s.
"The Radical Strategy Behind Trump’s Promise to ‘Go After’ Biden/Conservatives with close ties to Donald J. Trump are laying out a 'paradigm-shifting' legal rationale to erase the Justice Department’s independence from the president" (NYT).
Let me know when Hunter Biden is in jail for his attempt to illegally purchase a gun
Let me know when Hillary and Obama are in jail for having illegally put classified information on Hillary's private email server (communications between the President and Sec of State are "inherently classified". Since President Obama sent job related emails to Sec State Hillary, and she sent them to him, that's a clear criminal violation).
Let me know when the FBI and DoJ stop fighting Congress in an attempt to cover up Biden's receipt of bribes.
Until then?
The DoJ is not "independent" of Democrat Presidents, and only a liar would claim otherwise
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