Althouse: "As Russians fought Russians for control of the country’s military, Yevgeniy Prigozhin, head of the Wagner mercenary group, boasted midafternoon on Saturday that citizens were supporting his fighters and even buying them food and drinks in shops."

२४ जून, २०२३

"As Russians fought Russians for control of the country’s military, Yevgeniy Prigozhin, head of the Wagner mercenary group, boasted midafternoon on Saturday that citizens were supporting his fighters and even buying them food and drinks in shops."

WaPo reports.

४१ टिप्पण्या:

Mary Beth म्हणाले...: By "citizens", does he mean "CIA"?; २४/६/२३, ८:१० AM
SteveWe म्हणाले...: These events and actions may be as momentous as the October Revolution in 1917. Putin wanted a Russian Empire and he may suffer the same fate as Nicholas II. Prigozhin might also consider the fate of Trotsky.; २४/६/२३, ८:१५ AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: The thing to watch is whether all of Putin's doubles also leave Moscow.; २४/६/२३, ८:४५ AM
Big Mike म्हणाले...: These events and actions may be as momentous as the October Revolution in 1917.

@SteveWe, yes, but they could also be a prelude to mass show trials and executions. I don’t trust reporting coming from a war zone, and least of all from the Washington Post.; २४/६/२३, ८:४५ AM
Maynard म्हणाले...: The first casualty in war is The Truth.; २४/६/२३, ९:०० AM
Sella Turcica म्हणाले...: BBC:

Verified information from the ground is relatively sparse, but nonetheless, Wagner troops appear to be moving north, in the direction of Moscow.

This morning, Wagner mercenaries were seen in the southern city of Rostov-on-Don; later, reports came that Wagner troops were in Voronezh, 560km (354 miles) north.

Now, the governor of the Lipetsk region, north of Voronezh, said Wagner troops are moving through the region.

Moscow lies only 400km (248 miles) north - take a look at the map below to orient yourself.

It's not clear how many troops Wagner has in each place, or how large the group seen in Lipetsk was.; २४/६/२३, ९:०५ AM
Lars Porsena म्हणाले...: This seems to have temporarily stemmed all the Putin Rootin'.; २४/६/२३, ९:०७ AM
Tom T. म्हणाले...: Putin said that it's happening, and that it's treason. The commenters who insist on disbelieving all bad news about the Russian war effort while crediting everything Putin says are in for some cognitive dissonance.; २४/६/२३, ९:२२ AM
Lars Porsena म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; २४/६/२३, ९:२७ AM
Rusty म्हणाले...: Does this mean we can stop giving Ukraine our money?
And by 'Ukraine' I mean the political operatives we're making rich from this fiasco.; २४/६/२३, ९:४१ AM
Jaq म्हणाले...: Since Putin is as ruthless as anybody who rises to that level of power, he will probably use it like the Reichstag Fire, to consolidate his authority and to root out opponents. This is almost as bad as J6!

“ These events and actions may be as momentous as the October Revolution in 1917. ”

Big, if true.; २४/६/२३, ९:५२ AM
Jaq म्हणाले...: I love how the fact of an insurrection suddenly proves that Moscow's government is illegitimate... What did DC look like three years ago? I will give you a hint, it was an armed camp because Congress and the Administration were afraid of the American people, even as J6 was a total farce, a Reichstag gambit. IMHO, that overreaction was more evidence that they had stolen the election and were afraid of what would happen when people found out.

"Does this mean we can stop giving Ukraine our money?"

Between this collapse of Russia, and the impending demise of the Chinese state, it looks like we can bring our boys home and start concentrating on butter instead of guns.; २४/६/२३, १०:०४ AM
Narayanan म्हणाले...: is WaPo giving people ideas?

come next Jan 6 Pentagon will be putting up barriers for barricade?! to stop neoJ6ists; २४/६/२३, १०:१२ AM
Wince म्हणाले...: One thing the western media will NOT call it is an insurrection.

Would confuse the narrative.; २४/६/२३, १०:१७ AM
Wince म्हणाले...: Were the Biden scandals the reason the CIA received a final "go" code from the White House?; २४/६/२३, १०:२१ AM
Sella Turcica म्हणाले...: BBC:

The mayor of Moscow, Sergei Sobyanin, has just put out a statement on Telegram announcing that "a counter-terrorist operation regime has been declared in Moscow" and that Monday will be a "non-working day" to "minimise risks".

He asked Muscovites to "refrain from travelling around the city as much as possible".

"City services are on high alert," he said.

The situation is difficult," Moscow mayor Sobyanin said in his statement posted on Telegram.

He added that it's possible some roads or neighbourhoods in the city will be closed to traffic.; २४/६/२३, १०:३३ AM
Bender म्हणाले...: The fact is that this has now become a Russian civil war.; २४/६/२३, १०:४३ AM
Aggie म्हणाले...: Too bad the 'armed insurrection' on Jan 6th didn't include tanks and a multi-city offensive, it would have been a much more convincing event. Just think of the fortifications they could have justified & erected for the inauguration.; २४/६/२३, १०:५० AM
Ampersand म्हणाले...: Whoever has the nukes has the power.; २४/६/२३, ११:०७ AM
JK Brown म्हणाले...: Assuming that the quote is true, I just want to note that during a coup in Russia, capitalism still works, at least as a signal of support. Note the people are "buying"; २४/६/२३, ११:३९ AM
Gahrie म्हणाले...: The last thing the world needs is a civil war in Russia.; २४/६/२३, ११:४२ AM
Jersey Fled म्हणाले...: “Whoever has the nukes has the power”

Not necessarily.

Putin has to be very careful not to use anything that will result in heavy losses of civilians. This is a war for the people’s hearts as much as it is a military one. It’s only a success if not a single bullet is fired.

Well, maybe one or two bullets.; २४/६/२३, १:०१ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: "Russians fought Russians"?

Where, exactly?

Thought experiment: US offers Prigozhin $1B to lead an "insurrection-y" "coup" against Putin.

Prigozhin agrees and demands half the cash up front....the US pays Prigozhin...and Prigozhin cuts a deal with Putin to split the cash, fake a coup, dump a couple russki MOD folks the Prigozhin dislikes as a public "compromise" "concession" and the "coup" then "inexplicably" fizzles with everyone returning to home base.

That would be a pretty nice payday all around. You could even drop a million or two on the departing MOD folks to make sure its a win-win-win for everyone involved.

Exit question: how many times do you think Victoria Nuland/Biden/DC Braintrust might gullibly go for this type of deal?

Its gotta be killing the russkis seeing how much cash is flowing to the ukrainian corruptocrats and the russki corruptocrats must want in.; २४/६/२३, २:०७ PM
Dr Weevil म्हणाले...: Drago asks "Where, exactly" did Russian fight Russian?
Prigozhin's Wagnerites shot down 5 or 6 helicopters and 1 transport plane, killing 13 members of the Russian Air Force. They presumably lost at least a few of their own when the helicopters and jets attacked their vehicles on the highway to Moscow, but aren't reporting their own casualties.
Whether anyone was killed in on-the-ground fighting, I do not know. As far as I've heard, all the Russian army, police, and national guard people they met ran away, surrendered, or joined them, but that may be a Wagnerite exaggeration.
His "Thought experiment" is of course an idiotic fantasy.; २४/६/२३, ३:३५ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Dr Weevil: "His "Thought experiment" is of course an idiotic fantasy."

Yeah, the US would never throw cash at foriegn political/military leaders to achieve a particular political outcome.

Why, that sort of thinking is positively fantastical. Everyone knows the US achieves its geopolitical objectives only by appealing to the better angels of foreign personalities.

Thank you Dr weevil. Quite enlightening. Now, who wants more ovaltine?; २४/६/२३, ५:३७ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: I knew that mentioning the Ukrainian corruptocrats in the same breath as the russki corruptocrats would set the usual suspects off.

Why, that Zelensky and crew are like a reincarnated combo of George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln AND Audie Murphy..but even better!; २४/६/२३, ५:४० PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Lets give this a little more thought:
- Apparently, Prigozhin is not being arrested
- PMC Wagner meanwhile is being deployed to the front lines in Belarus

Gee, its almost like there was never any real danger of Prigozhin "couping" Putin...as if it were a psyop or something.

But that cant be, can it? Dr weevil has spoken, so let it be written, so let it be done.; २४/६/२३, ७:०१ PM
Dr Weevil म्हणाले...: Did I suggest that "the US would never throw cash at foriegn [sic] political/military leaders to achieve a particular political outcome"? No, I suggested that even the morons working for moron Biden aren't moronic enough to try to start a Russian Civil War II by 'throwing cash' at a sleazy genocidal lunatic like Prigozhin.

Nor have I ever suggested that Zelenskyy is a reincarnation of "George Washintin [sic]" and company. (Looks like someone's too drunk to comment coherently.) I do deny that he is a "corruptocrat" or even one-ten-thousandth as corrupt as Putin. He was elected to fight the endemic post-Soviet corruption and has in fact done so. Just in the last few months, the Chairman (I think that means Chief Justice) of the Ukrainian Supreme Court was arrested for taking bribes, removed, and replaced, the mayor of Odesa had to put up a third of a million bail on charges of fiddling with government contracts, and many other big and medium-sized fish have also been prosecuted for similar crimes, removed from office, or both. Ukraine is a Hell of a lot less corrupt than it was when he was inaugurated.

And Drago doesn't have the decency to admit that Russian soldiers were in fact killed fighting Prigozhin's Wagner army.; २४/६/२३, ७:४७ PM
SteveWe म्हणाले...: So now Trotsky is exiled. What will happen next?; २४/६/२३, ७:५८ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Dr weevil: "Prigozhin's Wagnerites shot down 5 or 6 helicopters and 1 transport plane, killing 13 members of the Russian Air Force. They presumably lost at least a few of their own when the helicopters and jets attacked their vehicles on the highway to Moscow, but aren't reporting their own casualties."

Links please.; २४/६/२३, ८:१३ PM
Dr Weevil म्हणाले...: Since Drago can't be bothered to do basic research, here are a couple of links:
Total losses, translated from a linked Russian source: link
Film of the airplane crashing: link. (It's a 4-engine 'mobile command center', something like an AWACS, enormously expensive, with a crew of 8.)

I could list again the 8-10 Twitter feeds I've found most useful in keeping up with what's actually going on in Ukraine and vicinity, but none of the Zelenskyy-haters here has ever bothered to follow a single one of them, so why bother? The fact is that Twitter and the ubiquity of cell-phone cameras makes this the easiest war ever to find out what's going on in it. There are, for instance, videos of Russian aircraft attacking the Wagner convoy, citizens of Rostov praising Wagner and cursing the policemen who came back after Wagner moved on, and lots more. But many here suffer from what Aquinas called "crass ignorance": intentionally refusing to learn things they don't want to know.; २४/६/२३, ९:१० PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Dr Weevil: "Did I suggest that "the US would never throw cash at foriegn [sic] political/military leaders to achieve a particular political outcome"? No, I suggested that even the morons working for moron Biden aren't moronic enough to try to start a Russian Civil War II by 'throwing cash' at a sleazy genocidal lunatic like Prigozhin."

Your faith in Biden's staff is duly noted.

I do not share your faith in them.

Dr weevil: "And Drago doesn't have the decency to admit that Russian soldiers were in fact killed fighting Prigozhin's Wagner army."

An hilariously pathetic "comeback".

Post your links that demonstrate conclusively the truth of your claims.

I suspect you cant.

Hence your pathetic response.; २४/६/२३, ११:३२ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Gee, I wonder how that recent accounting trick which yielded another sweet sweet $6.2B of US taxpayers money into the corruptocrat craphole of Ukraine (how much will be kicked back to the dems via Blackrock and amigos I wonder?) might have been utilized to "assist" in creating the conditions for this latest Current Thing?

Of course, to even ask such a question is to invite a stern rejoinder from the usual suspects whose passion for blindly stumbling forward with zero thought of strategic consequences betrays some sort of Chesty Puller-deficit over-compensation.

Mustn't do that.; २४/६/२३, ११:४२ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Interesting question to ponder: Did the Ukrainians, in the middle of their supposed full scale counter-offensive, use this "russian civil war" opportunity to accelerate their attacks or did they sit on their hands?

I realize that by asking this question there will be certain commenters who are certain to collapse upon the ground while rending their garments and shouting "Traitor!" and "Putin Lover!" and "Stone the Outsider!"...still, seems as though its a relevant question.; २४/६/२३, ११:५३ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Cernovich again getting it right:

"Impossible to know if it Wagner was even a real coup attempt. Those saying it was were same ones shouting Russia was falling and PUTLER was finished. There’s no one credible. All you can do is watch Telegram videos and try to suss out if it’s a deep fake or not."; २४/६/२३, ११:५८ PM
Tom म्हणाले...: Now it looks like Russia conned Biden and the CIA out of $6.2B with a fake coup.

If everyone involved didn’t have nukes, this would be hilarious.; २५/६/२३, १०:१० AM
Dr Weevil म्हणाले...: Drago demanded links to back up my statement, and I posted two, helpfully labeled "link". That's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back. An honest interlocutor would have written something like "Thanks for the links. Maybe you're right. But . . . " and then offered specific reasons why the linked tweets didn't prove I was right and he was wrong. He would also have looked at the replies on Twitter and the other tweets by the same account, and found that there are lots more pictures and videos that demonstrate that Prigozhin's aborted march on Moscow was not some kind of play-acting fake.

Instead of doing that, Oedipodean coprophage Drago demands links as if I hadn't already provided them. He also (11:53pm) asks questions he could easily have answered himself, if he would just get off his butt, or rather get down on his butt in front of his computer, and search for it. Yes, the Ukrainians did make some attacks and take some ground while all this was going on. They seem to have eliminated a Russian bridgehead over a canal, for instance (link), and are reported to be advancing in other areas (find your own goddamned links).

If they didn't make a gigantic attack all along the front line, it's because they're not stupid and were (a) waiting to see if this was some kind of a fake to lure them into doing exactly that, as Drago seems to think it was, while blaming them for thinking it might be, and (b) waiting to see if a desperate Putin would pull troops from the front line to defend Moscow, or if Russian troops in the front lines would be so dismayed by Prigozhin's betrayal that they'd start retreating or fleeing or surrendering in droves, making the Ukrainians' job much easier if they waited a day or two. As a wise general once said "Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake". Again, all this is well-known to those who actually care about what is going on in Ukraine enough to find out, a group that emphatically excludes the ideologically blind such as Drago.; २५/६/२३, ११:१५ AM
Narr म्हणाले...: "Why does chicken in Russia cross road?"

To get some of that sweet sweet CIA cash.; २५/६/२३, १:१० PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Mr weevil: "Instead of doing that, Oedipodean coprophage Drago demands links as if I hadn't already provided them"

LOL

Your links were certainly "definitive".

More great news from weevil's newest democratic hero Zelensky: opposition parties are banned and elections are now permanently delayed until Zelensky determines the "war" and the threat is over.

And thats after shutting churches down and arresting priests.

Its like listening to George Washington speak, isnt it weevil?

Lets kick another $100B to this noble and courageous liberty minded democracy loving dude.

Lets face it, Zelensky had weevil at "hello".

It gets better:

weevil: "If they didn't make a gigantic attack all along the front line, it's because they're not stupid and were (a) waiting to see if this was some kind of a fake to lure them into doing exactly that, as Drago seems to think it was,..."

I made no such argument.

I think I'm beginning to see the deeper problem with weevil's mindreading "analytics".; २५/६/२३, २:४६ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: weevil: "waiting to see if a desperate Putin would pull troops from the front line to defend Moscow, or if Russian troops in the front lines would be so dismayed by Prigozhin's betrayal that they'd start retreating or fleeing or surrendering in droves, making the Ukrainians' job much easier if they waited a day or two."

Jesus.

Just listen to these idiots.

Did 51 former intel officers feed you that?; २५/६/२३, २:५० PM
Dr Weevil म्हणाले...: Did Drago even follow my links, which I did not call "definitive"? I did say that there are huge masses of other evidence, easily found by anyone who wants to know the truth. Do the Russians even deny that Wagner shot down 6 helicopters and 1 AWACS-equivalent? You can see the wreckage of the latter online, and confirm the model from the number on the tail.

As for the "51 former intel officers", has Drago noticed that I agree with him and 'tim in vermont' and every reasonable person here that every one of them ought to be in jail, along with Merrick Garland and at least half of Biden's cabinet? That has absolutely nothing to do with whether we ought to help Ukraine reconquer its territory, where the Russian army has been raping, torturing, murdering, and kidnapping tens of thousands of men, women, and children and devastating the land by blowing up dams and planting millions of landmines.

Biden is a lot like Jimmy Carter: shamefully wrong about 90% or 95% of issues, but still right about one or two. Carter did a good thing when he deregulated trucking and airlines, and a very good thing when he legalized home brewing. Biden (or whoever controls him) did a good thing when he helped arm Ukraine, though he needs to fire the subordinates who are dragging their feet about F-16s and longer-range missiles.

And contrary to a lot of on-line fools, we are not the only ones supplying them. Depending on how you calculate the numbers, the U.S. is either 8th or 21st in contributions as a percentage of our GDP, way behind Poland and the Baltics, behind Czechia and Slovakia and the Netherlands (still pissed about the Russians pretending to be Donbassians who murdered 200+ Dutch people on a Malaysian airliner). Britain and Canada are contributing as much as the U.S., again as a percentage of their GDP. The US contribution only dwarfs the others because of the size of our GDP.

Of course, the only "church" Zelenskyy has been "shutting" and the only priests he's been "arresting" are from the Russian Orthodox Church, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Putin's regime, and it's lapdog "Ukrainian Orthodox Church". The independent 'autocephalous' Orthodox Church of Ukraine has not been molested in any way, and most Ukrainians have abandoned the Russian church for the Ukrainian. Most of the morons who repeat Russian propaganda about Zelenskyy 'shutting down churches' don't have a clue that there are two Orthodox churches in Ukraine, and that one is utterly corrupt. The churches that have been shut down have mostly been shut down or taken over by the people, after (e.g.) beating up a uniformed Ukrainian soldier who tried to attend a service before catching his train to the front, or refusing to allow a church funeral for a Ukrainian soldier, because the priests support Putin and all his crimes.; २५/६/२३, ६:४५ PM