Writes Eugene Robinson in "The Proud Boys jury got it right on Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy" (WaPo).
I see that I thought the government would have difficulty proving the defendants were insincere in their purported belief and that we would put a great deal of effort into trying to understand whether they really believed what they said they believed or whether they actually wanted to overthrow the duly elected government. But that's not what I'm seeing. Robinson's column doesn't even deal with this issue.
ADDED: From the NYT report on the conviction, "Four Proud Boys Convicted of Sedition in Key Jan. 6 Case/The verdict was a blow against the far-right group and another milestone in the Justice Department’s prosecution of the pro-Trump rioters who stormed the Capitol":
[S]everal decisions by the presiding judge, Timothy J. Kelly, ... tested the boundaries of conspiracy law.
Judge Kelly’s rulings allowed prosecutors to introduce damning evidence about the violent behavior and aggressive language of members of the Proud Boys who had only limited connections to the five defendants.
Jurors heard "a trove of internal group chats and recordings revealed a toxic stew of machismo, homophobia and misogyny... casual antisemitism and, in some cases, promoting outright Nazi sympathy."
The rulings also permitted jurors to convict on conspiracy even if they found there was no plan to disrupt the certification of the election, but merely an unspoken agreement to do so....
Lacking a smoking gun, prosecutors used two cooperating witnesses, Jeremy Bertino and Matthew Greene, to make what amounted to an inferential case that the five defendants had worked together to violently subvert the democratic process....
Even if there were no explicit orders to attack the Capitol that day, [Bertino] said, members of the group believed there was an implicit agreement to band together and to take the lead in waging “all-out revolution” to stop Mr. Biden from entering the White House. “I expected them to save the country by any means necessary, up to and including violence,” Mr. Bertino said....
To build a case against the five men on trial, prosecutors convinced Judge Kelly to let them introduce videos of other Proud Boys and Trump supporters in the crowd who had acted violently, even if they had only limited connections to the defendants. Prosecutors argued that Mr. Tarrio and the other defendants wielded the others rioters as “tools” of their conspiracy — a novel legal strategy....
८८ टिप्पण्या:
So much hyperbole.
Robinson’s article is a perfect example of a biased opinion that, from start to finish- leaves no room for thoughtfulness. Such it has always been w/progressive media when given the opportunity to smear Trump &anyone who supports him.
It’s not going to get better in this country- &who will be responsible for tearing the red, white &blue fabric of this United States? Every progressive media outfit will always blame Trump.
And everyone admires progress so very much.
Let’s all enjoy the downward ride.
"and led by individuals and groups in a conspiracy against our democratically elected government"
Leaders can be found at their clubhouse at Pratt House, 58 East 68th Street.
Does the public have access to the trial evidence in these cases? It’s certainly possible the verdicts here are just, but there’s more context that may be missing. I’d like to see the basic evidence here, plus the J6 videos, which will or may show more about what happened that day. For instance, were FBI agents fomenting the attack from inside this group? They’ve been caught doing so before.
Schumer begged that the J6 videos stop being shared. That’s enough for me to know there’s stuff in there that dissolves the narratives were being fed.
But, if the case goes to trial... [s]ome jurors may find it difficult to convict...
Not if the defendant is Republican and the jury is in Washington, DC.
Washington D.C. juries. I decline to accept the notion that justice is being done.
DC Jury.
What violence? This is the reason Tucker Carlson had to be taken off the air and destroyed, he challenged the narrative.
Did you know that a huge percentage of the people who joined the armed forces are from the Southeast?
Did you know that most of those people likely have a family tradition of serving in the military?
Did you know that a lot of those people probably had ancestors that fought for the Confederacy?
Did you know that the US Government is essentially calling those peoples' ancestors and heritage deplorable?
Did you know that in an attempt to increase recruitment the US navy has enlisted the help of a social media influencer who is a drag Queen?
Since 2016 DC has been home to: (1) two kangaroo-court impeachments of Trump, (2) endless Jan 6 kangaroo-court show trials, (3) the beatification of John McCain upon his death, (4) Crossfire Hurricane, (5) the structural misdirection of the empty Mueller report, (6) James Comey, (7) 51 incompetent or biased "intelligence" officials who misled about Hunter Biden, (8) systematic denials and turning a blind eye to the "mostly peaceful protests" of 2020, (9) systematic hypocrisy, doublespeak, and incoherence regarding border and COVID policies, and (10) 1,000,000 other projecting, political, partisan, and pointless efforts to redo and undo Trump's election.
"Out, damned spot! Out, I say!"
These Jan 6 convictions are more of the same, and inherently suspect because all proceedings in DC must be.
I know that I'm super duper confident in the Woke preaching and dogmas of my government. Yes, Sir! May I have another.
…and once again the asymmetry of application. The prattle about the reasons its sedition
made me think of Antifa, the coordination of those WI rioters and the climate lumps
blocking roads. If we’re now using this low bar we should be rounding up these people, too..
…was there any mention of the governments participation in organizing? No mention of Epps? Funny how these people go to jail and he gets a long form on 60 Minutes…
It’s all very simple.
They were unable to prove their innocence.
…but I suppose thats part of it- convict people of that which you are guilty…
It should be noted that President Trump is not listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in these sedition cases. Which is very if the DOJ intends to bring charges against him.
I agree with Robinson, but I suspect we disagree with who designed and lead the conspiracy.
Need pictures of the jurors.
The defendants themselves did not participate in the worst of the violence at the Capitol; Tarrio wasn’t even in Washington that day.
I'm reminded of the Hay Market Riot, where Chicago authorities tool advantage of a situation to get rid of a group on inconvenient anarchist activists--they didn't hang the rioters, they hung the speakers at the protest where the riot broke out. One of the condemned wasn't even in Chicago at the time. He appeared in court later as a character witness and they grabbed him and convicted and hung him because we all know he was really the one behind it.
Eugene Robinson has always been a dullard. He’s incapable of thoughtfulness.
But Robinson is useful in that he is telegraphing and preparing the media battlefield for the coming indictment of Trump by Jack Smith. And it is coming.
My biggest objection to Trump is that he was a fucking idiot to give that speech on January 6. He walked right into the Dems’ trap. Pelosi and the FBI set him up. Not smart!
A slight aside. There’s a new biography on Jerry Ford; the man who ended our long national nightmare. We need Ron or Vivek to win so that our long national nightmare will finally be over. The Dems can’t hate on those two like they can on Trump. And we can’t have more Biden.
That these trials were held in Washington DC, where any conservative cannot get fair and impartial treatment seems to escape Mr. Robinson. Which is no surprise, since he writes for the irretrievably corrupt and biased WaPo. It is equally unlikely that anyone involved in a politically-tainted trial or hearing would get fair treatment from a WaPo writer as a DC jury.
These trials should have been moved to some small Mid-West town far from a Blue City. Then let's hear whether the WaPo propagandists think the trials were fair.
[T]hree different sets of jurors have concluded that Jan. 6 was no spontaneous riot. It was planned, organized, incited..."
"... and led by individuals and groups in a conspiracy against our democratically elected government... Evidence at the trial showed that three of the men convicted Thursday of seditious conspiracy — Ethan Nordean, Joe Biggs and Zachary Rehl — led a group of about 200 Proud Boys away from the Ellipse rally and toward the Capitol even before Trump had finished speaking, or ranting.
No, ranting is what Eugene Robinson is doing.
The defendants themselves did not participate in the worst of the violence at the Capitol
No, the worst of the violence would be Ashli Babbitt being shot at point blank range by a trigger happy member of the Capitol Police, and Roseanne Boyland being beaten to death by a different member of the Capitol Police. That’s where the violence was.
But I think most Republicans agree that January 6th certainly was not a spontaneous riot, partly because it never was a riot any more than the George Floyd riots were “mostly peaceful.” We also believe that “planned, organized, incited,” just not by anyone associated with or partial to Donald Trump. The phrase is agents provocateur, with Ray Epps and others who’ve escaped punishment urging Trump supporters into actions which, if you squint a bit, vaguely resemble illegal activities.
However, for all of that I do blame Donald Trump for not nipping this whole terrible idea in the bud. It’s yet another reason to argue that the man lacks basic political instincts — the moment I heard about it I realized that it was a setup, with Trump himself urging his most ardent supporters into the trap. Nothing good could come of even the most peaceful of protests, and if Trump doesn’t grasp the concept of “downside risk” then he needs to go back to Wharton.
I'm trying to understand how political protests come to be understood as "sedition."
If you protest against what the political class want, then obviously you are a seditionist. There is not legitimate opposition to correct thinking.
What do you expect from Progressives living in DC?? They aren't any better than the OJ jurists.
I sense a large amount of dissatisfaction among the Althouse commenters.
There’s a lot more where this came from.
The Dems can’t hate on those two like they can on Trump.
Hahahahahaha.
The minute they defeat Trump they will be labeled “worse than Trump”.
Every GOP candidate needs to be put on the record about where they stand regarding these prosecutions. Anything less than, "I'll pardon everyone" is a disqualifier.
Kangaroo court on the BNO railroad.
We need Ron or Vivek to win so that our long national nightmare will finally be over.
In the post-election US you'll take what they give you and be made to like it. Oh, and by then you'll be cancelled...
Ford's pardon of Nixon is what brought us to this point. It convinced the political class, especially the left, that a President could be forced from office in disgrace if they could find the flimsiest of legal excuses. It also convinced the Right that somehow it was better to simply abandon a leader at the first sign of problems.
Is three different sets of compromised jurors > < or = to 51 intelligence 'experts'?
I'm reminded of the Hay Market Riot
...and that's the thing innit? It is not hyperbole to see the many equivalences to the darkest episodes in history like this...and the left side of the country approves...
The only thing those 3 sets of Jurors have in common is that they are, to a person, to the left of Eugene Robinson. A true Jury of the defendants' peers.
Althouse points out some interesting issues for appeal.
I am suspicious of all this.
No one brought firearms to the Capitol? You'll never pull off a coup that way. Seditious conspiracy? Really? Yeah, the Federalists tried that route against the Democratic Republicans in 1800. It didn't turn out well for the Federalists. We've got a lot of thoughtcrime in the seditious conspiracy charge.
This all seems a bit trumped up (heh) to me. It was a demonstration that turned into a riot.
And who is Ray Epps?
Eugene Robinson lives in a fog of partisanship.
I am going to get a badge that says "Disinformation Expert" and start flashing it at my lefty friends.
"I speak with the authority on this..."
"*____ is worse than Trump. Mega worse. He/she is mega-MAGA."
* fill in any Republican, dissident Democrat, or third-party name.
The j6 political persecution has been and will be the seeds for some dark days ahead.
A sincerity defense would be a really bad rule. Did you sincerely believe that was the law?
Merriam-Webster defines “seditious” as:
1: disposed to arouse or take part in or guilty of sedition
2: of, relating to, or tending toward sedition
Disposed to or tending toward are not quite sedition. That definition raises the troublesome question of how much disposition or tendency is sufficient to be judged seditious. On the other hand, the organizers of violence against the government or private interests should be liable to criminal prosecution. The jury got it right.
We've reached the point where, in certain jurisdictions, people with certain political views will never get a fair trial.
Our justice system is broken. I don't know how to fix it.
Network News is evidence now.
WELL! if Eugene Robinson of the WaPoo says so!
I think this is what they were convicted of. From Cornell law library
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
I hate to be so crude and simplistic, but this nation is truly fucked. There will be no turning back from this. I suppose the lesson is that we were already long past a really free and democratic country, we just didn't realize it. Now there is no reason for anyone to pretend anymore.
I'm seeing a resurgence of QAnon conspiracies being bandied around in the news. Also noted, "rant". Democrat shithole cities represent a peculiar frame of mind.
The prosecution was allowed to tell jurors that “a wink and a nod” was enough evidence to prove conspiracy. That kind of legal kung fu is how you convict someone who wasn’t there and never advocated for “sedition.” Prosecutors admitted the group committed no criminal acts on J6 but that their desired outcome and unstated goal was to prevent Congress from certifying the election. Just the common goal and the winking was enough for guilty.
How many obvious acknowledged plans to overturn Trump’s election have we lived through in the last seven years and yet no Democrat is ever charged with seditious conspiracy. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Oh for the love of God. Eugene Robinson hasn’t gotten anything right since….
Ever.
You get an anti-trump proud boys DC jury, the bar for conviction is not very high. If there were a trial against BLM types for their violence, in DC the bar would be much higher. In some other places lower. Not a great system of justice.
Why don't they just start calling themselves The Autonomous Leadership Proud Boys, like ANTIFA does? Then nobody's responsible for anything.
It worked for the Weathermen.
some of the most violent acts of the day.
???
you mean?
Like shooting and killing an unarmed woman ?
Like beating an unarmed woman to death?
THOSE violent acts?
they must destroy this country, and step on the embers, thats the point,
They say you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. In D.C., you can convict the ham sandwich. Unless you are a Democrat in which case the grand jury never gets the case and you get a book deal and a gig on MSNBC.
Four major points in history when America jailed political prisoners:
The Civil War - Lincoln
WWI - Wilson
WWII - FDR
J6/2020 Fraudulent Presidential Election - Biden
We've confected our verdict, and now it's your job to agree that it's legitimate.
Since the jury was picked in super liberal D.C. then "sedition" ... well anything other than what their liberal views are is sedition.
And as we know the videos of the cops leading them around the inside of the chambers came out AFTER these trials....
The three convicted were just made an example of to the public. Protest at the D.C. Capitol at your own peril!
"What evidence proved that this was "sedition"? I'm trying to understand how political protests come to be understood as "sedition.""
Another instance of Althouse asking good-faith questions in a bad-faith system. Who, whom is the issue here. Who needs evidence, anyway? The protest itself was evidence enough. QED.
This isn't just about the Proud Boys. This is a step on the path to charging Trump with seditious conspiracy, which I predict they will do.
I'm not the first to make this observation but when Dave Begley says "We need Ron or Vivek to win so that our long national nightmare will finally be over. The Dems can’t hate on those two like they can on Trump." I think he underrates the democraticals. On the other hand we may be in the fading last days of Reductio ad Hitlerum as Donald Trump overtakes him in leftist fever dreams.
"I'm trying to understand how political protests come to be understood as "sedition."
Bless your heart.
People can be made to believe almost anything. They can be influenced to do hideous acts. Jurors are people. Washington DC jurors are in an environment that doesn't reward independent, critical thinking.
Defendents largely held in solitary without normal access to family, friends and legal counsel are tried in a jurisdiction that absolutely hates them and if given the chance would give the maximum sentence if execution were off the table.
These guys were convicted the day the charges were laid against them. They never had a chance at acquittal because the trial was rigged against them from the very start. They are political prisoners. Yes, we do that in the US now. I am ashamed of my government- it no longer represents me.
AG Garland gave a statement yesterday regarding the conviction of the four Proud Boys and spelled out why it was sedition.
“We have secured the convictions of defendants who fought, punched, tackled, and even tased police officers who were defending the Capitol that day; who crushed one officer in a door and dragged another down a flight of stairs; who attacked law enforcement officers with chemical agents that burned their eyes and skin; and who assaulted officers with pipes, poles, and other dangerous or deadly weapons.
We have secured the convictions of defendants who obstructed the certification of a presidential election as well as the subsequent criminal investigation in the events of January 6th.
And now – after three trials – we have secured the convictions of leaders of both the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers for seditious conspiracy – specifically conspiring to oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power.”.
———————————————————————————————————
…”if any persons shall unlawfully combine or conspire together, with intent to oppose any measure or measures of the government of the United States, which are or shall be directed by proper authority, or to impede the operation of any law of the United States, or to intimidate or prevent any person holding a place or office in or under the government of the United States, from undertaking, performing or executing his trust or duty, and if any person or persons, with intent. . . he or they shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor. . .”
“While the U.S. still criminalizes sedition in 18 U.S.C. § 2384, the First Amendment’s free speech protections limit the extent to which states and the federal government can criminalize sedition. In 1969, a U.S. Supreme Court case, Brandenburg v. Ohio, created a test requiring that speech must directly or imminently likely produce violence.”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/sedition
If they could do it, these defendants would be executed publicly by this government.
Hey! The Democrats did this type of thing in the South from 1876 until the 1960s. They know all about local juries and threats to the local order by outside agitators. They are just reverting to form.
Next, they'll get state court juries to threaten big defamation awards against news sources that challenge their narrative...oh, wait...
A conspiracy staged through opened doors, a riot forced by pulling the rug from underfoot, an unarmed woman in a prone position executed, others assembled trapped and brutally assaulted, a probable Whitmer event.
A conspiracy staged through opened doors, a riot forced by pulling the rug from underfoot, an unarmed woman in a prone position executed, others assembled trapped and brutally assaulted, a probable Whitmer event and Pelosi precedent.
The audacity of Americans to exercise civil rights beyond their standing, stature, and status, to request audit the vote is a dark day for the republic... democracy that will forever live... remain viable in infamy.
I hate the Proud Boys because they're a bunch of white supremacists whose leader is a black guy.
So they're not only racist, they're also stupid for not being racist enough!
Enigma forgot the 1\20\2017 riots.Oh wait those did not happen because they have been Orwelled.
Democrats have been committing acts of seditious conspiracy for the many decades now, laser-focused on undermining the constitution and destroying the country.
But they're a political party running the show so it's OK.
The Dems can’t hate on those two like they can on Trump.
Bullshit.
Cite a Republican the Democrats haven't hated and persecuted, especially when they were running for president.
The Democrats have been sliming Republicans ever since Goldwater and the daisy ad.
Look how they treated Bob Packwood for Christ's sake, and he was a Democrat in everything but name.
Look how they treated Romney and McCain who spent most of their careers being lapdogs when they were threats to Democratic power.
Sedition was charged as an attempt to exclude Trump from running for president again by tying him to it.
The minute Ron [DeSantis] or Vivek [Ramaswamy] defeat Trump they will be labeled “worse than Trump”.
Agreed. Godwin’s Law will be replaced by “worse than Trump.”
But if any of them were actually honest and weren’t in on the blatant corruption they’d say Biden is worse than Buchanan.
Oh. It's Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post. Doubling down on idiocy.
It's a debate on whether there were more demonstrators than federal shills there that day.
But. narratives must be maintained and Eugene is a good water carrier for the state.
“The jury agreed with me” does not make it “right”.
Sedition is not a crime. There have been federal laws against sedition in the past. All have been overturned as unconstitutional.
So please excuse my confusion about how a conspiracy to commit an legal act can be a crime.
It does not smell right.
And have there been any other prosecutions for seditious conspiracy against other protest groups that invaded congress?
John Henry
I suggest that the vast majority of people asked would be unable to define "sedition".
I’d like to see the basic evidence here, plus the J6 videos, which will or may show more about what happened that day. For instance, were FBI agents fomenting the attack from inside this group? They’ve been caught doing so before.
I heard a reporter who sat through the trial talk about this. When the defense team tried to question witnesses about possible FBI/Homeland Security involvement (both reportedly had infiltrated agents into the group), the judge shut the trial down, ordered the defense to provide proposed questions for his preapproval, and allowed the FBI to invoke "national security" to avoid providing answers.
What we are seeing with the J6 prosecutions is a DC travesty, a breakdown of judicial and prosecutorial integrity and verdicts from politically biased juries.
I will guess that half the population, even without a legal background, recognizes that these defendants are being denied basic rights. Those us with legal backgrounds understand that we are witnessing corrupt federal law enforcement and judges trample the Bill of Rights and pervert the rules of evidence.
Welcome to Democrat Amerika.
January 6 was not a political protest. That's like calling the Kenosha riots "mostly peaceful protests." Worse than the physical damage, worse than the personal injury, was the attempt to overturn an election. It was an insurrection and it succeeded, for about 12 hours. Duly elected legislators performing a constitutionally mandated exercise in the transfer of power ran for their lives, Josh Hawley included.
Seditious Conspiracy - Jury Instructions
Elements: In order to find a defendant guilty of conspiring to oppose by force the authority of the Government of the United States, or to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States by force, you must find that the government proved each of the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
First, that the defendant conspired or agreed with at least one other person with the goal of opposing by force the authority of the Government of the United States, or preventing, hindering, or delaying the execution of any law of the United States by force.
Second, that the defendant joined or entered into that agreement with awareness of and the intent to further one or both of its unlawful goals.
So, given that definition, all of the hundreds of Left-wing rioters who barricaded federal immigrant detention centers (blocked the exits, set fires) and federal courthouses (set fires, prevented them from opening, threw fireworks, etc) are guilty of Seditions Conspiracy and have been prosecuted, right??
I mean otherwise that'd mean we live a country that operates without the Rule of Law, a core tenet of which is equal treatment of individuals and an unbiased, evenhanded application of the law.
The Biden/Garfinkle regime is doing its best to imitate the Wilson regime in 1918 when political opponent Eugene V Debs, a candidate for president, was imprisoned. Debs was finally released by Harding in 1920. Wilson was our last Fascist president, until now.
A DC jury would convict Eugene Robinson of seditious conspiracy with sentient Muslim spores from Mars, given the opportunity to do so. Well, maybe not. He's black.
Here's a slightly different take;
J6 Political Prisoner Dominic Pezzola’s Attorney: Evidence Confirms J6 Was An Organized Government Plot — There Is NO EVIDENCE Of Conspiracy By Patriots
"Blogger Paul said...
Since the jury was picked in super liberal D.C. then "sedition" ... well anything other than what their liberal views are is sedition.
And as we know the videos of the cops leading them around the inside of the chambers came out AFTER these trials....
The three convicted were just made an example of to the public. Protest at the D.C. Capitol at your own peril!"
The next protest will not be nearly as peaceful, if you are going to be charged with sedition anyway, folks will make it count.
Keep blaming and punishing people for shit they didn't do, and pretty soon some of them are going to figure they've got nothing left to lose.
Our justice system is broken. I don't know how to fix it.
Oh, we know how to fix it. But nobody's willing to say it out loud.
"[T]hree different sets of jurors have concluded that Jan. 6 was no spontaneous riot. It was planned, organized, incited..."
"... and led by individuals and groups in a conspiracy against our democratically elected government
Said conspiracy coming from the FBI and its corrupt members
So many wannabe Yezhov's in the Democrat press.
Worst "insurrection ever.
More shots fired by the tranny with the manifesto.
Oh..what bout that?
Whatevs..
Ray Epps is just misunderstood. "I orchestrated it" is just an example of his unjique sense of humor in the face of tragedy.
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