If you care, you're not doing it right. And if you don't care, you wouldn't even be trying. So, go ahead now....
४ मार्च, २०२३
"W. David Marx, the author of the book 'Status and Culture,' said that for luxury goods to function as status symbols, they need... to be used in a way that is not only to mark status."
"Someone carrying a beat-up Hermès bag suggests that they are not simply wearing it because of its label, according to Mr. Marx. It can give the impression, he wrote in an email, that 'I don’t even care if it gets beat up, because I’m not using this for status marking.' 'It’s just a bag,' he wrote. 'Who cares if it’s beat up?'"
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Someone please explain to me why women wear ripped jeans?
My comments about makeup and fashion from the last 2days apply here as well.
Hermes et al are just another sick prank played on women
John Henry
Like people (men) who buy cars so expensive that they are afraid to put miles on them.
It's rodeo time in Houston and there is a distinct divide between the "beat up boots" and "dress up boots" people. Houston isn't as dressy generally as Dallas-Ft. Worth, but despite the fact that rodeo is basically a 3-week party with a huge carnival, pretty big names performing nightly, jam-packed wine garden, beer garden, and ice houses, quite a lot of people (and not all women) do tend to dress up for it.
Our neighbor wears his everyday boots all year. They're well kept but obviously everyday. He saves his ostrich boots for the gala events at the rodeo, and that sort of thing. He has others of intermediate dressiness. I, going on seven years in Texas this time around, have finally acquired 3 pairs of boots: my own everyday boots that I can and do wear all day and haven't yet had polished (there are always boot shine people at the rodeo for those who want to spruce up), some dressier ones that I wear when I don't have to be on my feet all day, and some tall, full-leather riding boots (hence flat, unlike Western boots) that I found at a thrift store.
I just got my first good hat. It's harder, for me at least, to tell the everyday from the dress hats; people tend to be pretty careful about even everyday hats, so they all look pretty good. Also, I think maybe baseball caps have supplanted cowboy hats for ranch work for many.
The brand should have diacritical marks. Hence Ëuropean Village Apartments.
20 years ago when I was living in a very posh part of Dublin, it was common to see the most expensive Mercedes Benz cars (obviously top of the line AMG models) with no model insignia to identify them. The would have the Mercedes symbol, but everything else was removed and the spot painted over, so not an inexpensive bit of false modesty. The merely rich, on the other hand, would proudly flaunt their top of the line credentials.
"I don't really care, do u?"
Melania Trump - Oil on calf-skin leather - 2017
"Walt! What are ya doin'?"
Makin' it look mean!
"If you care, you're not doing it right. And if you don't care, you wouldn't even be trying."
Does "Big, if true" work here?
I have YET to ever own a piece of designer crap. The closet I got is Levi's. (snark) I laugh at people who think because of their designer "whatever" that they are better than the average Joe.
My oldest daughter makes some handy pocket change reselling designer bags and accessories.
"Someone please explain to me why women wear ripped jeans?"
When I was a kid, I saw an episode of "Spin and Marty" where somebody — Spin? Marty? — had a new pair of jeans and the boys all got together and stomped on the jeans in the dirt and so forth. We were taught that jeans were no good until they were broken in. It started with males, not females.
Know your Disney!
The comment is more about the status associated with having piles of filthy lucre than that of class.
If you really want to go the full "ripped jeans" effect to simulate poverty, you should repair them from the inside with iron on patches, the way we authentically poor kids did.
"and the boys all got together and stomped on the jeans in the dirt and so forth."
It's funny the power of fiction to muscle into one's memory to take the place of real life experience. These don't sound like any boys I ever met, our jeans looked like that after a short while because we only had a couple of pairs, and we played hard. This may not have applied to the lives of Disney writers, IDK.
There is no faking the best status symbol of all, the joie de vivre, the joy of living.
New York media is more concerned about status than anything.
And people around the country pay attention to New York media because they think it provides them status over the people the New York media looks down on.
Reminds me of back when new Levis were stiff as cardboard and it took sometimes months to wear them in. You didn't want to go out in them. It's why Donovan sang "Do you have some jeans that you really love..." because getting a new pair meant going through the process again.
Then they finally came up with a way to make them soft prèt a porter. Something was gained, but something was lost, too.
It may be that carrying a beat-up designer bag is a way to distinguish yourself from the counterfeits.
I make do with a freebie bag from some conference. If I see someone with a designer bag, I assume they don't get invited to enough conferences.
"Know your Disney!"
Which one? The one with nazi overtones, toxic masculinity, and traditional female archetypes or the one with hidden penises everywhere that's trying to turn kids gay?
I am so happy that I don't know what a Hermes bag is.
Hermes status sounds like an episode of The Simpsons.
Marge: "Am I cool, kids?"
Bart and Lisa: "No"
Marge: "Good, I'm glad. And that's what makes me cool, not caring, right?"
Bart and Lisa: "No"
Marge: "Well how the hell do you be cool? I feel like we tried everything here."
I know what Jamie's saying. I have cowboy boots with years of use that I wear proudly. I have a 25 yr old LL Bean barn coat with frayed cuffs that I wear. It probably looks ratty to most people.
The article seems to suggest that these older, well-loved items have value to someone who didn't break them in and didn't put years of memories into them. That's where fashion gets silly.
@Old and Slow: 20 years ago when I was living in a very posh part of Dublin, it was common to see the most expensive Mercedes Benz cars (obviously top of the line AMG models) with no model insignia to identify them. The would have the Mercedes symbol, but everything else was removed and the spot painted over, so not an inexpensive bit of false modesty.
I lived in Germany from 2015-2019. Very few BMW/Audi/Mercedes cars had anything but the manufacturer symbol on the trunk lid. Why that is normal in Europe, but very rare here is a good question. I took the 530i badge off my BMW because it was a pain to clean around.
It’s been the case for ages that an important part of looking good is looking like you’re not trying to look good. Obvious effort is a turn-off. There is (was?) even a line of hair-care products called “bedhead” for the “I just rolled out of bed and yet I still look awesome” look.
It’s a small step from there to your wardrobe.
cassandra lite said...
It may be that carrying a beat-up designer bag is a way to distinguish yourself from the counterfeits.
Until it spawns a cottage industry specializing in "pre-distressed" new designer bags.
Seen it happen with electric guitars, seen it happen with reproduction old west firearms. Posers gotta pose.
“20 years ago when I was living in a very posh part of Dublin, it was common to see the most expensive Mercedes Benz cars (obviously top of the line AMG models) with no model insignia to identify them. The would have the Mercedes symbol, but everything else was removed and the spot painted over, so not an inexpensive bit of false modesty. The merely rich, on the other hand, would proudly flaunt their top of the line credentials”
I was told that it was more European than anything. My partner has had a couple of unmarked Mercedes. But then her husband had a thriving business fixing German cars, esp Mercedes, and restored them on the side to make ranch payments. One was a black on black 300 SEL Sportsline. Lower and longer than other 300s, and much faster. All it had was the Mercedes emblem on the front. Another was a 500 or so SEL souped up with supposedly a 700 engine, in burgundy. He apparently had clients who had him remove class and model insignia in order to increase the status value of their Mercedes.
Then, there is the other side. He bought the Tahoe that I now drive at police auction here in PHX. It's white, with heavily tinted window, and the only logo is the Chevy emblem on the front grill. We figure that it was probably seized by the police for drug trade involvement, and that it was supposed to be confused for an Escalade. After a couple years, that wasn’t going to happen, because it didn’t have the same quality of paint. And, yes, after 150k miles, it has some dings. Unfortunately, for us, being a cheap Escalade, it also didn’t have 4 wheel drive. He bought it for her for MT, but it now mostly lives back here in AZ because it isn’t a 4x4. I had it when I was living in NW NV, and whenever I got caught out when it snowed, I would have to yank it out of the nearest snow bank with my K2500 4x4 GMC Suburban, and tow it back home.
Soon they'll be offering stone washed Hermès bags.
Ripped jeans (for my age group) are a flash back to the best jeans of our teens and twenties. Being dragged to the store to get shrink-to-fit Levi’s and then hoping they’d actually fit. But you’re mom bought them too big to try to make them last longer. Wearing what felt like cardboard for a few months until they’d finally start to soften. Hoping you wouldn’t outgrow them before the magic happened. The best pairs were the ones you got at the end of your growth spurts that lasted into your twenties.
This was one time being the younger sister living in hand-me-downs paid off because the aging process had already been started. Shrink-to-fit Levi’s would age into the best jeans that were almost formed to your body. By the time they started to rip and fray it was like walking around (comfort wise) today in yoga pants.
Back when leather soles--as well as a suit and tie--were mandatory in downtown offices, Allen Edmonds shoes were my favorite. At over $100, real money at the time, I could only afford a couple pair.
The story goes that two investment banking firms were trying to win Allen Edmonds' business. One had the entire pitch team buy and wear new AE product. The other had on well-worn AE shoes. Guess which firm won the business.
this seems to be Old News.
in my experience.. ANYONE with Brand New sh*t is mocked and scorned
Blue jeans,
Motorcycle Jackets,
MOST items of clothing..
This is WHY, they invented stone washed jeans *.. Right?
stone washed jeans* my ex girl-friend, a Fashion Merchandising professor from Greensboro NC, could bore you to tears, with: The Actual Reason they invented stone washed jeans (actually, it's kinda neat!). But the reason people BUY stone washed jeans (and other distressed clothing) remains:
To make them look like people don't care. Don't even let her get started on the looms that True Religion uses
“It's rodeo time in Houston and there is a distinct divide between the "beat up boots" and "dress up boots" people. Houston isn't as dressy generally as Dallas-Ft. Worth, but despite the fact that rodeo is basically a 3-week party with a huge carnival, pretty big names performing nightly, jam-packed wine garden, beer garden, and ice houses, quite a lot of people (and not all women) do tend to dress up for it.”
We try to do Michael’s at the South Point casino, in Las Vegas, on Valentine’s Day every year. Actually can never get in on Valentine’s Day, but she will accept going there a day early or late now. Serious 5 star restaurant, that doesn’t have that many tables. She first went there with her first husband, who was the executive banquet chef at Caesars. That was over 40 years ago. Still open. Still looks the same, but moved to South Point when they tore down the casino it was in.
Point of the story is that they are the casino/hotel in Vegas set up for horse related events, like rodeos and horse shows. Watched a quarter horse competition last time we stayed there. So, seeing real cowboys around there is not that surprising. But when we were there this year, there was a guy standing near the restaurant, holding up the wall, with 4 pair of boots. He had everyday boots on, and was carrying a pair of dress boots, and two pair of working boots, easily identified because they had spurs.
As I type this, I am looking at my dress hat - a Stetson Rancher. Very conservative, but not as much as the Open Road that my grandfather (and LBJ) wore. Don’t have any other felt hats, but 4-5 straw ones. Partner is always riding me about being a wannabe cowboy (her, and my, grandfathers were real ones). But straw cowboy hats are really the best for working outdoors in the summer. Much better, in my mind, than billed caps.
Have maybe a dozen pair of boots, split between MT and AZ. Interestingly, in MT, non riding work boots now mostly come with rounded toes. You see a lot of that in MT - round toed cowboy/western boots. Even dress boots - I have a nice pair of round toed ostrich boots in MT. I do have some traditional boots up there though, including a pair of waterproofed elephant skin boots with lug soles, and an indestructible pair of shark skin that I have had since I lived in For Collins 40 years ago. My memory of living in (Austin) TX, is that that would never fly there. It’s caught between the rounder toed boots from up north, and the exaggerated pointed toe boots from Mexico. Some of their dress boots have really, really, long toes. Here, in PHX, regardless of skin color, if I see a guy wearing long pointed toed boots, I can be pretty sure that his first language was Spanish. And his hat would fit right in, in TX.
I grew up in the city of Lakewood in SoCal. Went to high school in the 60's. Graduated (just barely due to skipping school to go surfing, but that's another story) in '68. The only jeans you could wear were Levis 501 button fly shrink to fit but you had to "deck" them first. The first thing you did was wash them to shrink and since the legs had to be over your shoes and just touching the ground in the back, finding the right size for your very first pair was a bit of trial and error. After that came the decking which consisted of, removing the size label, the belt loops and the "mickey mouse ears" on the back pockets. After the first wash you were to never wash them again. I had one pair that could almost stand by themselves ha!
I am still chuckling over the idea, BTW, that boys needed to invent ways to put wear and tear on their blue jeans.
King Charles wears forty plus year old John Lobb shoes which have been resolved and repaired many times over the decade. Even the most gauche newly rich can have a well worn bag if they use it for forty years. Which they won’t because they are not the right sort. You either are or you aren’t.
My aspiration fashion-wise has always been 'English country gentlewoman': obviously old, obviously high quality classic styles that are worn until they disintegrate. The closest I've ever gotten was a Ralph Lauren tweed riding jacket I bought on clearance for $60 at least 30 years ago. It's lining is kind of ripped and it's a bit pilled, but I love it(and wear it) still.
“Reminds me of back when new Levis were stiff as cardboard and it took sometimes months to wear them in. You didn't want to go out in them. It's why Donovan sang "Do you have some jeans that you really love..." because getting a new pair meant going through the process again.”
My partner tells of watcher her grandmother put her grandfather’s jeans on frames to dry them, after she washed them, so they would come out unwrinkled. He broke his last horse at 90, and she met the woman he gave it to, here in PHX. (That was his hobby - but he never wore spurs, and swore to beat anyone who touched one of the horses he broke with them).
Now days, my Levi’s go into the dryer, and then get hung up a little damp. But they go to Goodwill when they get ripped or show too much wear. Wore jeans since about 3, and Levi’s since I started HS (Jr High had a no-Jeans dress code), except for when I was wearing business attire. Buy IG Levi’s is really the only reason I keep my Sam’s Club membership anymore, since they have even and odd waist sizes, and Costco only had the even sizes. There used to be a store in town in MT that bought ripped Levi’s, and shipped them to Japan (then later to China).
Sprezzatura. Stephen I have a pair of Alan Edmonds black oxfords, resoled twice, that I still wear. They last forever.
what is the presentational condition appearance of Oprah's bag that she bought in Europe?
Lem Former Twitter Aficionado said...
There is no faking the best status symbol of all, the joie de vivre, the joy of living.
========
recalls for me line from The Fountainhead [Dominique about Wynand on his boat]
Aristocracy ... joy without guilt!
Professora said
... Know your Disney! [3/4/23, 9:10 AM]
======
but then what was the lesson for girls?
to stomp on jeans or
give jeans to boys to stomp on
before wearing?
Vintage is a thing and with vintage it isn't wear it is patina. This is going on with watches right now- very hot. I've rescued some old Rolex watches and you can get them running again but you can't do anything to the cases or dials or hands. They need to be all original or it hurts the value. A lot...
Not only invent ways to put wear on their jeans, but join up with other boys as a group to do it. I can see girls getting together as a group for something appearance related, but the only thing boys will do together with other boys in that department, is to play sports to make them stronger.
Blogger Michael said...
"Even the most gauche newly rich can have a well worn bag if they use it for forty years."
I'm pretty sure you didn't think this statement through...
tim in vermont said...
You wore them for a couple of weeks while doing chores and goofing off and the washed them and TaaDaa! Broken in.
About 30 years ago I bought a pair of black Dr. Martens. They were good enough to wear in Court. I still have them. Sometimes name brands are also quality brands, and worth the investment.
Spin and Marty’s selvedge jeans would be worth big money in vintage stores…
Growing up upstate NY, the status car was an old luxury sedan as your winter rat car. As a thrift store junkie, I concentrate on old Hawaiian shirts but I frequently encounter folks obsessively going through the bags and shoes for high end brands.
Is this just a variant of Morgan's "If you have to ask the cost, you can't afford a boat?"
Is this just a variant of Morgan's "If you have to ask the cost, you can't afford a boat?"
I confess to bring puzzled still by purse brands. Years ago, my husband bought me a very nice and, for me anyway, very expensive bag on the advice of my fashion-employed sister-in-law. It came with a little brass and leather tag, attached by a short ball chain, that said it was a Marc Jacobs. I asked my SIL if I should leave it on or take it off; she said it depended on whether I wanted people to know it was Marc Jacobs.
That was my question! DO I want people to know?
She was the wrong person to ask; she is a fashion person, not a "how do I look sophisticated and not as if I'm trying too hard" person. She knew the bag was good but didn't understand what vibe I was trying to give off (which is fair because I didn't either - so let me say instead, she couldn't advise on what vibe I SHOULD be trying to give off).
I'll keep the bag forever, but I tend to carry less expensive ones most of the time. Less regret if something happens to it. I guess at heart I'm just bourgeois.
Actually, with regard to my being bourgeois: maybe the thing is just to give the appearance of nonchalance. We have friends whose living room sofa costs more than all the furniture in our house - only a very slight exaggeration. It's white.
"Come on," says our friend, "let's hang out in the living room." Then, eyeing the red wine her husband just poured us, "Or the kitchen is good..."
The idea that the real upper class don't show off their wealth but remain somewhat shabby has been around for a long time, the assumption being that they were the real quality people. But no, they're people just like everyone else and they have their own problems. Nancy Mitford did a lot to get people following the "U" ways of the upper classes. Look at her family, and tell me if they were anything to be aspired to.
"Spin and Marty"? I had to look that up. I wondered if you meant "Rick and Morty," "Pinky and the Brain," "Freebie and the Bean" or some other pair. Tim Considine of "Spin and Marty" and "My Three Sons" passed away a year ago yesterday. 81.
Serious watch guys will tell you to never polish a vintage watch. The scratches and scuffs show that the watch was WORN, and not just stuffed into a safety deposit box. And it’s a testament to the robust movement inside.
Old and slow. Well named.
Never having been status-conscious, I’ve occasionally tried to figure out the reason for my indifference. Too intelligent to be duped, middle-class pragmatism, and Tom Joadian solidarity with the Common Man, have all suggested themselves as reasons over the years.
But lately I’ve realized that it’s because I’m just so freaking self-centered. Funny that egoism gives different commands to different people in response to the same challenge.
It was once fashionable to be as pale as possible, indicating one was affluent enough to be able to stay inside all day, living lives of leisure, while tans indicating one was a working person who toiled outside.
Later, when many jobs moved inside, tanning became fashionable as it indicated one was affluent enough to spend one's days out in the open, playing tennis or golf, and so forth. That one spent one's time outside acquiring tanned skin also also came to indicate one was healthy, due to one's (presumably) athletic outdoor activities, while working stiffs stuck inside offices, shops, factories, etc. developed "unhealthy" pallors.
Ripped jeans are part of the decades-long notion that jeans look better when they appear "lived in." (It probably became a widespread conscious notion in the hippie era. Jeans were workclothes and dressing "down" suggested one was a rebel against "square" social requirements, including wearing "nice" clothing.) Also, jeans are more comfortable when worn in. The vogue for wearing jeans with holes in the knees became popularized by the Ramones in the mid-70s, which became part of the whole "punk" style. It's stylish for affluent kids to pose as if they are raggedy-ass street kids who cannot afford to buy new clothes, and it presents an easy way to appear as "don't-give-a-fuck" rebels against propriety. The problem is, jeans that have been purposely ripped look it and there is nothing more dopey and square than that.
Fresh out of high school my brother bought a4 wheel drive truck. He immediately threw mud on it to make it look like he'd been off-roading. Kind of the same idea.
Similarly I rarely fully clean my gravel bike.
Years ago I went to the rodeo in Houston. Our group was lucky enough to be invited to one of the VIP skyboxes. The first thing we were told was “absolutely no photos.” I asked our hostess what that was about and she explained that some of the attendees bring someone who is not their spouse.
I am so naive.
If you compare an old pair of Made in America Levi's side by side with current, you can see the difference in fabric.
Levis missed the boat by not quickly jumping onto the fashion jeans bandwagon
Those ripped jeans started as sissies imitating working men who literally wore out the knees.
Inebriated, I almost spent all my money on a Rolex in order to impress people. Fortunately I realized that, although expensive to me, it was only an entry level Rolex to people familiar with the brand.
Most old money folks I know drive Buicks or Jeeps. The middle class fail for the Ralph Lauren life style he started selling in the late 1970s. He's just one example. To be honest I like the relaxed Anglo American Ivy look. Ralph put "garanteed to wrinkle" labels in cotton and linen clothing.
But this worn look goes way back. I prefer to call it the comfortable look. For example, It wasn't strange for students dusting a new pair of white bucks with cigarette ashes so they didn't look new. In the past when tweed sports coats where heavy enough to wear as a cold weather jacket, you had to break them in. Same goes for Burberry trench coats or heavy cotton drill trousers.
The original 501s were shrink to fit and actually Selvedge jeans till around 1970. You can still get them for north of $225.00USD, but it sort of defeats the point of jeans. The MBAs at Levi decide to use denim made on wide looms. I can't remember when Levis discarded the back pocket rivets. I've worn shrink to fit 501s since the late 1950s, wearing them today at the office. Yes 501s don't get comfortable till the third laundering and only get better till they fall apart.
Back to the hand bag. I can see a breifcase being trashed, but an expensive woman's bag? Sounds like a gal that can only afford one bag and who doesn't take care of their favorite things. I've got five sisters, trust me, no women has one bag.
Last week, I sewed the ripped backside of my Lee's with dental floss, which stands up to wash/dry better than thread.
Crack, your comment made me laugh! Thank you for that.
Never having been status-conscious, I’ve occasionally tried to figure out the reason for my indifference. Too intelligent to be duped, middle-class pragmatism, and Tom Joadian solidarity with the Common Man, have all suggested themselves as reasons over the years
There are fashion requirements and status displays for that tribe, too. Nobody kid yourself that you’re rejecting fashion.
If you don’t believe me, let me dress you for a month…
"What's a parvenu gotta do to get some respect around here?"
@ Dave Begley:
They've seen other women wearing ripped jeans...
When I was a teenager in the late 60's, I bought Levis and washed them multiple times in bleach to soften them up. At one point, they developed a rip because of that treatment. The rip was not a feature but a consequence.
These days you buy Levis that are already fully broken in, so there is no need to treat them. However, people today want that 60's vibe, so they pay extra for jeans that are already ripped.
That's what I call cultural appropriation.
I knew an old cowboy in Arizona who bought a new pickup every five years. The first thing he did was throw a roll of barbed wire in the bed and take it out in the desert and drive it hard. Once it had a few dings and scratches he could use it for work without worrying. So, he CLAIMED that it wasn't about cosmetics, but merely practical. I suspect it was a bit of both.
Gracelea said...
"The closest I've ever gotten was a Ralph Lauren tweed riding jacket I bought on clearance for $60 at least 30 years ago. It's lining is kind of ripped and it's a bit pilled, but I love it(and wear it) still."
I have a couple of 30-35 year old Brooks Brothers blazers that still look great and have only needed a button or two reinforced over the years. Unfortunately, Brooks Brothers quality has declined significantly. For the last twenty years or so, you'll find better quality suits and jackets at a place like Men's Wearhouse than at BB.
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