Said Pope Francis, quoted in "‘Racist’ interview with Pope Francis causes fury in Russia/Francis says Chechen and Buryat minorities in Russia’s army more cruel in Ukraine than other soldiers" (The Guardian).
Alexandra Garmazhapova, the founder of the anti-war Free Buryatia organisation, called the comments “inexcusable and racist.” “I was extremely disappointed to read these racist, inexcusable statements,” said Garmazhapova. “Russia is waging an imperial war started and led by Vladimir Putin, who is by all accounts not a member of an ethnic minority. The pope should condemn him personally, but he decided to sidestep the Russian president.”
“Let’s not forget that the Russian Orthodox church is one of the biggest supporters of the war,” Garmazhapova added, referring to the public backing of the war by the head of the Russian Orthodox church, Patriarch Kirill....
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२२ टिप्पण्या:
And so on . . .
No lies detected.
What does Pope Frances have to do with the Russian Orthodox Church?
U.S. politicians are always yapping about the Southern bigots and yokels.
It's code for 'white and conservative' but it's perfectly allowed here.
Many commenters on this blog express those opinions every day.
The question is, is he correct?
Uzbeks: Weak Links In Red Chain
For actual Russians, though, it's more the Chechens and the Gypsies.
The communist Pope speaks out again on politics. I'd still like to know what they did to Pope Benedict.
called the comments “inexcusable and racist.
and, of course.. COMPLETELY TRUE.. Either that, or they're different from Every other group on earth.
Look at the non german SS groups in WWII.. Look at basically ANY colonial army
The Germans complained a lot about the Russian Asiatics and the French Africans. It's a European thing.
I hadn't heard about the Buryats, but I don't think the Pope is alone in hearing reports that the Chechens are exceptionally cruel. Early in the war, I recall reading about Chechen "orcs" among the Russian forces brutalising civilians and POWs, for example.
That said, I'm not sure they're alone in that. There's widespread reports of both Ukrainian and Russian troops committing atrocities against civilians and POWs (initially I'd only heard about Ukrainian atrocities being committed by the Nazi groups integrated into the Ukrainian armed forces, like the Azov and Aidar Battalions, but the most recent episode with the video of Russian POWs apparently being murdered seems to involve regular troops.) Even adjusting for wartime propaganda and disinformation by both the Ukraine and Russia, I'm sure a lot of these allegations will turn out to be true.
The stereotype of Chechen and Central Asian troops being exceptionally brutal might be true, but it might also just be a reflection of Ukrainian racial stereotypes. Hard to say from this distant remove.
The Pope has a lot of co-religionists in the region currently at issue, and why shouldn't a Pope have opinions about war among people who identify as Christian? (It's Francis, by the way, unless xe has transitioned.)
Russian leaders and armies have traditionally been ready to use the subject peoples for the dirtiest work. It helps deflect from their own responsibilities, and the minorities can also take the blame for poor battlefield performance. It's an old story.
Ironically, the Cossacks of yore (mostly from the Ukraine) used to fill the role, and the smaller Central Asian forces were just anther brand of Cossack in the public mind. In Central Europe the fear of the Russians and their henchmen goes back to the mid-1700s and
has been reinforced several times since.
[Blogger sucks]
The Soviet War Memorial in Treptower Park, Berlin is known as the tomb of the unknown rapist.
You hear these kind of comparisons made both historically and currently, and while they are somewhat understandable I always sorta wonder what scale is used for the measurement. I can see where and why political leaders would often use this kind of language but one would expect the leader of a religion that makes a big deal about the universal worth of human life would be less apt to step into this kind of language.
I don't care for Pope Francis, but I'm less concerned by his comments than the truth of cruelty in the Russia military forces. Shouldn't we be more upset that Russians usually have two military lines, the front line and the line behind them that will shoot anyone that retreats from the front? Usually, the rear line is ethnic Russian (and not necessarily happy to be put in the role or the war).
Re: Leland:
Shouldn't we be more upset that Russians usually have two military lines, the front line and the line behind them that will shoot anyone that retreats from the front? Usually, the rear line is ethnic Russian (and not necessarily happy to be put in the role or the war).
Are they doing that this time too? I thought that was a Soviet thing. However cruel the Russians and Ukrainians may be, they're both far better than back when they were under the Communist (or Nazi) yoke.
I don't know about Buryats, but Chechens historically opposed the Communist rulers of Russia. It's not surprising, therefore, that Francis would have negative feelings about them.
Balfegor (10:44am):
About the Buryat Mongols: Buryatia is just north of Mongolia and south of Lake Baikal. I don't know if there is any ethnic/language difference from Mongolian Mongols, or if the name just means they're not Mongolian subjects. I also don't know that they're more brutal than ethnic Russians, but the soldier who was filmed proudly castrating a live Ukrainian prisoner was a Buryat, and the soldiers around him cheering him on were, too. He's been identified by name - modern social media makes that relatively easy now - and reportedly captured and facing trial. Then again, lots of ethnic Russians expressed approval on social media.
As for the Chechens, the Russian soldiers complain that they rarely fight themselves but grab most of the loot, they are often used in the second or third line to shoot retreating Russians, and there's at least one case where two Chechens were accused of raping two Russian soldiers while a crowd of other Chechens watched and threatened any Russian soldiers who tried to interfere: the victims' relatives filed a complaint with the Ministry of Defense.
Given the utter brutality of the two Chechen wars, it wouldn't be surprising if some Chechens were sublimating their hatred for Russians by torturing and killing pale blue-eyed Ukrainians as the next best thing. I suspect their leader Kadyrov may also be recruiting large numbers of Chechens into his private army with the idea that he would win a third Chechen war when Russia collapses.
As for "the most recent episode with the video of Russian POWs apparently being murdered", Thomas Theiner has done a very careful analysis and demonstrated that it was not murder and the only war-crime was on the Russian side. When you agree to surrender and the last guy out of your hiding-place brings a loaded gun and starts shooting, that's a war-crime ("perfidy"), you have just given up the rights of prisoners of war, and the army you agreed to surrender to has a perfect right to kill all of you. Since there were 11 Russians and only 5 Ukrainians, and the last Russian had already shot one of them (the photographer), making the odds 11-4, the machine-gunner watching over the Russians would have been a fool not to shoot them all. None of them had been searched or tied up, so they might easily have had pistols on them, and they were not yet prisoners-of-war with the protections that gives. Much more detail in Theiner's Twitter thread here.
This civil war is none of our business. It’s brother against brother. Nazis v Chechins is a dream matchup for the lovers of war world-wide. There is plenty of atrocity porn available, what the Ukrainians are doing in Kherson right now, so called “filtration” operations hunting down “collaborators” with the word broadly defined.
Nazism is being given a pass in the west, the Buffalo shooter wore an Azov Black Sun and we all ignore it, because we have been given a “hall pass” on race hatred, and unfortunately, war and race hatred reaches deep into the human psyche, weapons to kill “orcs,” what fun!
This war didn’t need to happen, but NATO, which has long outlived it’s usefulness, has been co-opted by neocons bent on world domination. This war doesn’t benefit Americans.
"Russian" Russians are a bare plurality in the Russian Federation IIRC, and they certainly were only a plurality back in the Red day. Ethnically-mixed and diversely (if at all) motivated, Russian armies are far from monoliths.
If you lived in The Bloodlands and were of military age in 1939-45, the chances were good that you would be wearing a uniform not necessarily of your choice. If you were a Pole or Ukrainian in the contested areas, for instance, you could be drafted as a Soviet citizen by birth or by recent events, and if you were still around the 'hood in 1944-45, don't think you could dodge your fraternal Socialist duty to march to Berlin.
Do women still fight in combat roles in the Russian Army? Or was that just a Soviet thing? I recall seeing Uke videos showing women in combat*, but now that I think of it I haven't seen any Russkie videos showing similar.
*Yes, yes, most likely staged propaganda. But that the Ukes are at least doing propaganda with the womenfolk and (AFAIK) the Russkie aren't (when they used to) I was curious.
Pope’s comment was either lame or insidious.
On the surface it appears just lame; Francis was criticized for being soft on Russia and he offered an excuse that Russian forces are not responsible for most atrocities.
On a deeper level the effect of his words is quite insidious, pitting different ethnic-based regiments of Russian army against each other. Perhaps that is why the official Russian media immediately exploded with outrage against the Pope. Official Russian media always praise Russia (and Russian military in particular) for how International it is, with different ethnic groups working together for the Good of the whole Country.
Btw, Pope’s comments was a tiny part of quite extensive interview given to US Catholic publication. It covered most current issues from Catholic perspective. It is interesting how these few words were quickly excerpted and made world-wide news.
The question about Ukraine ends thusly, “How would you explain your position on this war to Ukrainians, or Americans and others who support Ukraine?”
The Western media continues to push the lies that Ukraine is one united country and Ukrainians are one united folk, now under assault from Russia. In fact, Ukraine was divided country in the state of bloody Civil war for the last eight years, since 2014 Maidan uprising, when western Ukranians overthrew the duly elected government by force.
The fact that Maidan uprising happened is a clear indication that Ukraine was already divided. Since then, for eight years, western Ukrainians were in Civil war with eastern Ukrainians for possession of Donbass region. Donbass resistance fighters are presented in the West as pro-Russian separatists, but they are Ukrainians first, unless you accept the premise that land always belong to the State but people living on it can be disposed of.
People of Donbass are Ukrainians. They voluntarily accepted Ukrainian citizenship and were loyal subjects until the legitimate Ukrainian government was overthrown in 2014. Than they were at Civil war with Kievan government they refused to recognize. After Russian invasion they are in process of joining with Russian state.
Kievan government position on Dondass was always a complete subjugation of its people. That is where the whole poison of ‘united’ Ukraine idea. If the ideas of regional autonomy and federation were allowed, the Civil war may have been avoided and Ukraine may have continued to exist as one country. It is understandable that Kievan government insists on complete subjugation of Donbass Ukrainians, under pretense of ‘united’ Ukraine. It is not so easy to understand why Western media keep pushing lies about one united Ukraine and one united Ukrainians.
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