Is it like closing the swimming pools? Students can have clubs whether the school has some club-recognition process or not, but you can't go swimming if there is no pool.
Perhaps the loftiest position for a school to take is to disaggregate itself from student expression. But the question whether it must do this remains, and I'll be interested to see what happens when (if?) this case gets back to the Supreme Court. The argument is that the law against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation contains various exceptions, so it's not the kind of "neutral, generally applicable" law that, under current doctrine, the federal Free Exercise Clause permits. I'm also seeing an argument that the current doctrine should be overruled, so that even "neutral, generally applicable" laws would be subjected to heightened scrutiny if they substantially burden religion.
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I believe the club recognition thing is about money taken from student tuition and given to students.
I am pretty sure if a group of students want to get together and have a "club" they can.
The issue is who gets money.
I've read some number of Talmudic studies and the authors I read apparently don't take homosexuality as important since it doesn't turn up. So a lot of the religion is not burdened at any rate.
Good. Make sure you notify the student body why and who is responsible for them not being able to have nice things.
Gay behavior and gay culture is a disease, figuratively and literally.
They have the freedom of association just like anyone else...
Outside the city walls...
while yelling 'unclean'.
Roberts and Kavanaugh again.
As expected.
So next they'll be forced to have a satanic club, or a Hitler admiration society.
You think I'm kidding?
I'm not...it's what the left does these days.
They agitate, they push every button.
They just want to tear everything down like good little communists.
Students can have clubs without the benefits of school recognition (ex., access to school facilities) just as people can swim in a pond if the pools are closed—sure, it be done, but it’s not equivalent.
RideSpaceMountain said... Make sure you notify the student body why and who is responsible for them not being able to have nice things.
Gay behavior and gay culture is a disease, figuratively and literally.
It seems likely you have misidentified who is responsible for them not being able to have nice things.
"I believe the club recognition thing is about money taken from student tuition and given to students. I am pretty sure if a group of students want to get together and have a "club" they can. The issue is who gets money."
You're missing the discrimination problem. If there is money to be siphoned from all the students and distributed to some clubs, the ones who believe/say the right thing, then you've got a system of discrimination. Yeshiva is arguing for the *right* to discriminate, and it's willing to end the system rather than forgo discrimination.
I'm suggesting that's the loftiest idea, to get out of the enterprise of judging student speech. Then you just end the wealth redistribution scheme.
"It's like Hitler" and half the country would strongly agree.
I agree that it's not the univerities job to authorize student gatherings, clubs, and so on. Let students find their own way. The schools job is to facilitate groups; let those groups make their own successes and failures.
(granted, there does need some oversight, but as long as it doesn't disrupt to a greater extent the primary purpose of the school, it should be not disallowed).
Bottom line, a LBGTQ group exists whether the school recognizes it or not.
Imagine some government telling AA that she MUST publish the comments of a certain person who shall not be named, or some other person whose goal is to destroy the nature of the blogsite.
That is the comparison. Would it be bigoted and wrong if AA were to decide to simply close down the comments instead?
Yeshiva, like any other entity, has a fundamental right to its institutional identity. It has a fundamental freedom of association. It need not accept the Nazi Club and it need not accept any other club that seeks to undermine what Yeshiva believes. And other students have a fundamental right to receive what Yeshiva offers.
And let's not leave out the problem of treating the LGBs and the Ts as a single unified whole. If the Ls can object to relationships with Ts with penises and insist that their girlfriends have vaginas, then Yeshiva can insist that its student body conform to Judaic principles.
Is it like closing the swimming pools?
It's like a school banning Greek Houses affiliated with the school, and forcing kids to like in Greek Houses UNAFFILIATED with the school
"Yeshiva is arguing for the *right* to discriminate"
Is it? Or is it arguing that it should be able to operate according to its own values? And that forcing it to change would be discrimination?
Anyway, as a conservative I think private institutions should be able to "discriminate." Morehouse should be able to admit only blacks, Harvard should be able to screw Asian applicants, Yeshiva should be able to "discriminate" against gays, Notre Dame should be able to hire only actual Catholics, even if the institutions receive research funding or their students get federal loans.
Religious schools should be able to discriminate against clubs that contradict the school's mission. Roberts and Kavanaugh are being silly to make Yeshiva use the extra step. I suppose they think the NY Supreme Court will recognize long standing precedent and allow the discrimination to continue... hahaha, right.
"Religious schools should be able to discriminate against clubs that contradict the school's mission."
How would you have decided Bob Jones v. United States?
"Is it? Or is it arguing that it should be able to operate according to its own values? And that forcing it to change would be discrimination?"
You're "alternatives" are just another way to say it has a right.
"Roberts and Kavanaugh are being silly to make Yeshiva use the extra step."
No, this sort of thing is not silly. Do you even care about federalism?
Yeshiva is arguing for the *right* to discriminate
That's an intentional use of a loaded term and misrepresentation of the issue. They are arguing for a right to be themselves.
This is no more discrimination than a Democrat officeholder refusing to hire a Trump supporter or a Planned Parenthood facility refusing to employ a prolifer.
Was NAACP discriminating when it demanded respect for its freedom of association in NAACP v. Alabama?
As for discrimination, public universities in California have off-campus BIPOC-only spaces.
White people are tolerated (barely) if notice is given that they might be in the building.
The left are so fucking tolerant.
If Yeshiva wants to deny recognition of the Christian Proselytization Club, more power to them. That is their right and it is not wrongful bigotry or discrimination.
"seeking formal recognition"
Two things are happening here, and I'm glad they're happening.
The University "formally recognizes" groups so that it may control those groups (by, for example, threatening to withhold continued recognition if the proper line is not towed.)
The gay group wants to FORCE the religious institution to "formally" recognize them so that they may bask in stolen legitimacy. Forcing others to their will is the very reason they exist.
These groups deserve each other. No matter who loses, we win.
Ever notice how the brave gay groups never sue the madrassas to get formal recognition? Wonder why?
Well, it would be a shame if anything like the First Amendment interfered with LGBT activists crusade against religion and normalcy.
Cancelling all clubs to “own the libs” is an unsophisticated way to handle this. It’s like taking away recess from all third graders because one kid isn’t acting like he’s supposed to. Also, the most disturbing trend over the past ten years has been conservatives hiding behind religion and ‘values’ in order to discriminate.
There should be zero university input of any kind into student clubs. That is best approach from pretty much any angle I look at it.
How would you have decided Bob Jones v. United States?
By that brilliant jurist Warren Burger in another case of "the end justifies the means" outcome determinative twisting of statutes and laws, with the Court and the IRS abusing the tax exemption rules, to obtain the desired result.
Meanwhile, why any member of an interracial couple, or any Catholic, would want to go to Bob Jones University, much less insist upon being able to do so, or to have the government force open BJ's doors, is beyond me. A simple enough solution is to go your own way.
Is Yeshiva University a public school,or private?
If private,discrimitation should be perfectly fine. The Constitution bars government from discriminating,not private citizens/groups. If public,no can do.
Federal law barring discrimination in the private sector is based on what constitutional authority? Because it's the "right thing" to do? Yeah,no.
If private companies can censor some aspects of the first amendment,why not all?
Neither transgender spectrum, nor incest, nor social liberalism, nor elective abortion (e.g. human rites) are celebrated in the natural or Jewish philosophy. They will also not hold parades for masturbators or who covets their neighbor or brother's wife.
How times have changed! When I was a Columbia student in the early 1970s, the student newspaper ran a front-page editorial against the Vietnam war. The Nixon administration responded by telling the university that they could either shut down the newspaper or lose the ENTIRE university's tax exemption. So the university shut down the newspaper.
Or at least they withdrew all funding from it. I remember hearing that it survived by going into the business of selling typesetting services.
So, the school does not wish to support a group (LGBTQ) that does not share its values.
Why would an LGBTQ student go there in the first place?
'If private, discrimination should be perfectly fine.'
If that dim bulb Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (D) can ban blacks from his private beach club, then I see no problem with this.
Btw, his 'excuse' was that his wife was the member, not him.
Seriously...
I can never get past the question of "who has time for this during school"? I had very little time to think about clubs, socializing and the like when I was a student, and I wasn't in anything rigorous like a STEM degree.
I also wonder if emphasis on organized socializing is one of the reasons why young people have such issues making friends once they graduate. So very easy to just show up at the appointed time and socialize. Learning to make connections with others is a good skill to have, and I don't see that being fostered with organized socializing.
"Roberts and Kavanaugh are being silly to make Yeshiva use the extra step."
Let the lower courts wrestle with the tough questions and hopefully the cream rises to the top leaving the Supremes the tougher assignment of parting the baby.
Unless Alito in a flight of fancy, jumps in to save the baby at the last minute.
God save Alito.
(eaglebeak)
With reference to rhhardin and his claimed reading of Talmudic studies--the Hebrew Bible, however, DOES make considerable mention of homosexuality and all the mentions are disapproving, so the notion that "a lot of the religion" is not burdened would seem to be wildly ignorant, since the Hebrew Bible is the fons et origo of Judaism.
The Talmud is basically a compendium of legal cases, precedent, etc. Extremely important, but not the Word of God. It's the word of man.
"You're "alternatives" are just another way to say it has a right."
Not just another way. A better way. One that does not accept the default assumption that opposing LGBTQ+++ should be framed only as "discrimination."
Before we revisit Bob Jones, let's investigate Morehouse's treatment of white applicants, or Wellesley's treatment of non-trans men.
So, the school does not wish to support a group (LGBTQ) that does not share its values.
Why would an LGBTQ student go there in the first place?
To impose their values on the school.
I don't know why schools have "clubs" in the first place other than their need to control students' outside-the-classroom activity. Or to attract students (in a competitive market for students) with all the cool clubs and activities in which they (the students) can participate ... when they aren't in class or studying or working off-campus so they can pay their tuition.
Oh. I forgot. Today's students borrow tens or hundreds of dollars for tuition so they can spend more time studying ... or participating in cool clubs and activities.
Also, the most disturbing trend over the past ten years has been conservatives hiding behind religion and ‘values’ in order to discriminate.
If you think this is the most disturbing trend during the past 10 years, you haven't been paying attention.
I can think of at least a dozen left-wing trends that are far, far worse.
Bake the cake, for starters.
'To impose their values on the school.'
Exactly.
Communists are taking over every institution from the inside.
Their biggest triumph is turning public (and now private) schools into indoctrination centers.
Remember that this is merely a faction of the same crowd that thinks that Israel shouldn't even exist as a Jewish state and that the Jews in Israel should all be shoved into the sea.
They think that the people they oppose and hate should not be allowed a place of their own, that they should not be allowed to go and do their own thing, but must have things rammed down their throats.
Essentially it is a form of social rape. And opposing being violated in this way is what we are told is "discrimination."
"Muslims seem to be the last remaining group on this planet willing to actually meet this pestilence with violence."
Why are LBGTQ persons or groups a "pestilence?" Your implied approval of violence against such persons reveals your pestilential thinking.
@Robert Cook
Thanks for drawing my attention to that comment, which I had not noticed. I've taken it out. You can take out your comment if you want, but I'll leave it up.
I doubt if it is a good faith comment. It's just incredibly stupid (and dangerous if not merely stupid and in bad faith).
I think I'll leave it up, thanks.
@robert cook
"Why are LBGTQ persons or groups a "pestilence?"
What rock do you live under? How much tin foil have you stockpiled? Is there food? What about room?
Please, I wish to join you in your magical Narnia. Send directions to my TomTom.
"What rock do you live under? How much tin foil have you stockpiled? Is there food? What about room?"
This doesn't answer the question.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"What rock do you live under? How much tin foil have you stockpiled? Is there food? What about room?"
This doesn't answer the question
It's a good question, though.
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