२५ सप्टेंबर, २०२२

"Unlike Germany, which was clearly on the wrong side of history and made facing and remembering its Nazi past a national project woven inextricably into the postwar fabric..."

"... of its institutions and society, Italy had one foot on each side, and so had a claim to victimization by Fascism, having switched allegiances during the war. After Rome fell to the Allies, a civil war raged between the resistance and a Nazi puppet state of Mussolini loyalists in the north. When the war ended, Italy adopted an explicitly antifascist Constitution, but the political emphasis was on ensuring national cohesion in a country that had succeeded in unifying only a century earlier. There was a belief, the Italian writer Umberto Eco wrote in his classic 1995 essay 'Ur Fascism,' or 'Eternal Fascism,' that the 'memory of those terrible years should be repressed.' But repression 'causes neurosis,' he argued.... [Now, Giorgia] Meloni is poised to take charge. Her proposals, characterized by protectionism, tough-on-crime measures and protecting the traditional family, have a continuity with the post-Fascist parties, though updated to excoriate L.G.B.T. 'lobbies' and migrants.... [T]he left sees in her crescendoing rhetoric, cult of personality style and hard-right positions many of the hallmarks of an ideology that Eco famously sought to pin down despite Fascism’s 'fuzziness.' She evinces what Eco called an 'obsession with a plot, possibly an international one' against Italians, which she expresses in fears of international bankers using mass migration to replace native Italians and weaken Italian workers....."

११९ टिप्पण्या:

Jeff Vader म्हणाले...

How is it fascism when the historical population of a country finally decides that the waves of immigrants are not really enhancing their lives?

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Funny we never hear about the "Far Left" - from the media.

The Far left who run collapsing and corrupt crony-socialist nations all over the globe.


but eeeeek - Far Right"

Do these leftists who infest the media understand that sometimes voters swing to the opposite as they see their nation ruined by corrupt left pols? nah.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Anyone to the right of Lenin is "hard right." Remember Mussolini was a Socialist. "Nazi" is German for "National Socialist."

GatorNavy म्हणाले...

NAZI’s and their fascists derivatives were socialists, where the state controlled everything. I have yet to read where Meloni is going to increase the size of the Italian state.

Cappy म्हणाले...

What a pantload.

gilbar म्हणाले...

Her proposals, characterized by protectionism, tough-on-crime measures and protecting the traditional family,

THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF FASCISM! We Need to All Gather around, the antifa ideals of
Open Borders!
No Cash Bail!
Eliminating the traditional family!

Every thing that was considered 'good', Must now be acknowledged as EVIL!!
No Borders! No Wall! NO USA (or Italy) at ALL!!
Let rioters (and arsonists (and MURDERS!)) free! Let Them LOOSE! Let them KILL!!
DEATH to mother! Death to father!! DEATH TO GOD!!!!

Lurker21 म्हणाले...

Italy has had "post-Communists" in government for sometime. The Democratic Party (Partito Democratico) descends from the Italian Communist Party (Partito Comunista Italiano), and has already been in governing coalitions.

Now the country makes room for the "post-Fascists." The National Alliance, a descendant of the Italian Social Movement which in turn descends from the Fascist Party, has also already been in governing coalitions. I wonder if at this point the Italian "post-Fascists" are as close to Mussolini's regime as governing Japanese and German parties were to their own countries' Axis past after the war.

Italy has a lot of parties. Some have funny names like "Italexit For Italy," "Red Moors," "Atheist Democracy," "Populars for Italy," "Popular Construction Site," "Italy is There," "More Europe," "We Sicilians," and "Us Moderates." I am waiting for "Nobody In Here But Us Moderates" to be on the ballot in the US.

Mike of Snoqualmie म्हणाले...

Fascism is far left. It's core concept is mandatory. The citizen will obey the state or else. Just like Joe Biden's mandatory covid jabs: Get the jab or lose your job. Democrats are the party of fascism. Obey them in all things, don't protest their policies and all will be well. Any protests will be met with an FBI raid, with gun drawn. Know your place, slave!

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Shorter NYTimes: "Meloni is literally Mussolini and Hitler!"

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

"Her proposals, characterized by protectionism, tough-on-crime measures and protecting the traditional family, have a continuity with the post-Fascist parties, though updated to excoriate L.G.B.T. 'lobbies' and migrants.."

The left are pro-crime, anti-family, and pro-open borders. they define this as anti-fascist.

The left are pro-crime... and absurdly confident that you are as well.

Roger Sweeny म्हणाले...

"[T]he left sees in her crescendoing rhetoric, cult of personality style and hard-right positions many of the hallmarks of an ideology that Eco famously sought to pin down despite Fascism’s 'fuzziness.' She evinces what Eco called an 'obsession with a plot, possibly an international one' against Italians, which she expresses in fears of international bankers ..."

Shockingly, if you replace the one word "hard-right" with "hard-left", this sounds like a lot of left movements. Fidel? Hugo Chavez?

Of course, definitions of "hard" may vary.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Meanwhile - Far Radical leftwing fascism is on the rise in the USA. They call it "Democracy" with rabid fever.

Glenn Greenwald
@ggreenwald
I can't stress this enough: at its core, Democratic politics is about criminalizing opposition to their party and ideology.

Dissenting ideas are "disinformation" and must be censored by Big Tech. Trump voters are inherently criminal ("insurrectionists") and should be imprisoned.

veni vidi vici म्हणाले...

"Far right" / "Fascist": Anything or anyone that questions the actions and designs of the international debt-banking cartel.

Wince म्हणाले...

...which she expresses in fears of international bankers using mass migration to replace native Italians and weaken Italian workers...

Conspicuously absent from that sentence is one of those "without evidence" caveats the NYT likes to insert in their hit pieces.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

Greenwald’s quote about the Democrat Party being all-focused on criminalizing opposition to their ideas and suppressing their opponents free speech using Big Tech is apt here. It is perfectly accurate as it goes but you also see international media adopting and furthering the fascist actions of the Left while smearing any politicians who oppose Progressive policies as fascist.

Joe Dark Brandon is showing us all how our precious federal power can be turned to fascist suppression of possible opponents in the next election. His bullying businesses like Taliba is joining in on in the current viral video is textbook Fascism.

Beasts of England म्हणाले...

‘…characterized by protectionism, tough-on-crime measures and protecting the traditional family…’

Outrageous!!

JPS म्हणाले...

I don't much like the new Italian right parties, but Meloni is not a fascist. A lot of the coverage of Fratelli d'Italia is overwrought.

The Brothers of Italy are led by a woman. This scary defender of the traditional family has a kid with her partner. (Not husband, note.) There's a certain flexibility here.

As for this:

"fears of international bankers using mass migration to replace native Italians and weaken Italian workers"

If you're a cabal of bankers and politicians and you're looking at a $2 trillion dollar economy that you need to keep going for some decades, and their birthrate is 1.27 live births per women, you might consider importing some workers. Not advocating it necessarily, but it's happening.

Incidentally, it's hard to shop for four in a northern Italian supermarket. Family-sized means two parents, one kid.

narciso म्हणाले...

they don't want to starve and freeze, that is the prerequisite of 'democracy' nowadays

even the last (then youngest dissident orban) is not immune from the attack, but he had a tough skin,

chuck म्हणाले...

Maybe America should reckon with its own fascist past. Hello, Democrats ...

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"traditional family"

A sure sign of the "hard right."

But Italy wants to have a first-world standard of living without having a first-world productive system. So right or left, it can only muddle through at best, now aided and abetted by Europe-supplied moral hazard. But as soon as the "hard right" takes over, Europe will stop being nice. Solidarity only goes so far with EU deplorables.

JPS म्हणाले...

I'll just add, the fascist slogan "Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State" is a philosophy a lot of the people shrieking about a resurgence of fascism could happily embrace, provided the State were run by the right sort of people.

Bob Boyd म्हणाले...

I know nothing about Giorgia Meloni, but when the NYT taps my knee, my leg moves in her direction.

JK Brown म्हणाले...

Whether full communists or just continuing the work, they are coming out in force. The communists sent out instructions in the post-war period to label all who opposed them as "fascists", and claim to be anti-fascists. The latter strictly true since within socialism, the communists were in competition with the fascists prior to the overt WWII hostilities.

I find it telling that the teaching of the early 20th century in American schools gloss over the 1917-1939 period when communist violence actually cause the rise of the fascists in opposition. Unfortunately, the fascists had learned all to well from their communist comrades in regards to violence and oppression.

Always remember the NY Times has a long history of pushing propaganda for the international socialists (communists) so any article like this must be read with deep skepticism.

At the turn of the century the immense majority of the Germans were already radical supporters of socialism and aggressive nationalism. They were then already firmly committed to the principles of Nazism. What was lacking and was added later was only a new term to signify their doctrine.

When the Soviet policies of mass extermination of all dissenters and of ruthless violence removed the inhibitions against wholesale murder, which still troubled some of the Germans, nothing could any longer stop the advance of Nazism. The Nazis were quick to adopt the Soviet methods. They imported from Russia: the one-party system and the pre-eminence of this party in political life; the paramount position assigned to the secret police; the concentration camps; the administrative execution or imprisonment of all opponents; the extermination of the families of suspects and of exiles; the methods of propaganda; the organization of affiliated parties abroad and their employment for fighting their domestic governments and espionage and sabotage; the use of the diplomatic and consular service for fomenting revolution; and many other things besides. There were nowhere more docile disciples of Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin than the Nazis were.

--von Mises, Ludwig (1947). Planned Chaos

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"Her proposals, characterized by protectionism, tough-on-crime measures and protecting the traditional family..."

The NYT defines fascism.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

However this is like Brexit. The leftist media is too late to stop it.

Owen म्हणाले...

Italy is actually a number of distinct sociopolitical entities —Settentrionale and Meridionale being two obvious ones— and is perhaps a living example of how geography can shape society. A long narrow mountainous country is likely to have very different economies and social networks and values (see Thomas Sowell’s comments).

Whatever: I think southern Italy has been crushed by (inter alia) the endless illegal migration from North Africa so beloved of the EUrocrats, and Italians generally seem to have grown disenchanted with the Prog vision or at least with the current crop of corrupt operators. I wish them well under new management, which will have to overcome the racist/fascist smear job of the competing parties.

zipity म्हणाले...


Curious how I never see Liberals or Democrats described as being "hard left" in the Lamestream Media©.

Ampersand म्हणाले...

The idea of continuing Italian collective guilt from the events of 80 years ago, i.e., more than three generations ago, has multiple flaws. The first of course is the unreality of collective guilt. I should feel no guilt for policies that I was either opposed to or had no part in. Here, the tenuousness of the concept is further weakened by the passage of time.

The quoted article does remind me just how much of contemporary political discourse is based on these spurious notions of collective guilt for social and economic wrongs. Will all intellectuals be deemed collectively guilty for the nonsensical woke theories so much in vogue today? Or will it be misattributed to too much free speech?

Lexington Green म्हणाले...

So great to see the Italians ignoring this kind of thing, and electing a government that actually is going to represent their interests.

Aggie म्हणाले...

Because anything to the right of Left is Fascism!

Quaestor म्हणाले...

This sort of bullshit is to be expected from the Nooyawk Times and other cringingly woke propaganda outlets, as human nature asserts itself and the left discovers that they are and always have been on the wrong side of history.

Narr म्हणाले...

I'm old enough to remember award-winning European films about the prejudice and racism that Italian immigrant workers faced in places like Germany . . .

Good times.

At any rate, hard times a-comin' and reports of the end of history are greatly exaggerated. End of the modern age, for sure. Will Europe revive itself or is it too far gone?

Stay tuned.

Blackbeard म्हणाले...

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the journalists." Or was that lawyers?

Blackbeard म्हणाले...

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the journalists." Or was that lawyers?

JaimeRoberto म्हणाले...

I'm beginning to think that maybe fascism isn't that bad.

Mike म्हणाले...

Well the chattering classes in the media might, on their most tolerant day, recognize that the voters have a choice. But then if the voters choose something not "progressive", well then they will say that the people chose. Badly.

And yes since I bear the burden of having the Los Angeles Times as my local newspaper, I will never see the words "Far Left" sully its pages.

n.n म्हणाले...

So, Italy is returning to a hard-left ideology: authority, diversity [dogma], redistributive change, single/central/monopolistic solutions, cancel culture, and wicked solution in the Maoist, Stalinist, Nazi, Progressive Liberal et al models.

CWJ म्हणाले...

Analogous to red/blue states/counties, I'd like to see her support broken down geographically.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

According to the modern newsmedia “fascist” means anyone to the right of Joe Stalin. America’s Democrats and the Socialist parties of Europe have totally lost sight of where the center is, not to mention losing sight of the proper role of government.

Just for the record, criminalizing political opposition is something Joe Biden’s administration has done, not the Republicans, and in this way he certainly resembles Hitler and Mussolini (though American trains do not run on time).

minnesota farm guy म्हणाले...

Maybe the Italians ( wonderful people)have finally had it with proto-communist governance and want to try something different. With Britain, Hungary and Italy freeing themselves from the Socialist yoke maybe we'll see some realistic policies coming out of Europe. Certainly the Germans are being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. They can only use the excuse of the sins of the past for so long. Sooner or later they have to think of the present. I hope that the results of their ridiculous commitment to a fragile Nordstream 2 will finally wake them up.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Mussolini died 77 years ago, yet the MSM and the Left keep bringing him up like it was yesterday. instead of giving us facts as to WHY this center-right populist is winning we just get name calling and faux-sophicated analysis.

Boil the whole thing down and its just the 1000th variation of: "Boy, that right-winger sure is a fascist aren't they?"

One thing not addressed in the exract, is the Italian leader is big foe of Russia and supports Zelensky 110 percent.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent म्हणाले...

Oh, please.

The only answer the Establishment has to explain the tension between their failed policies and reality is hysterics. Just like…well, fascists.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

The idea that Europe has changed since WWII is nonsense. Just because they were too traumatized to stand up for themselves for a couple generations doesn’t mean they don’t have it in them anymore. The Islamofascists think they’re tough. When it comes to mass killing, they’re pikers compared to the Europeans.

At some point, the people of Europe will stand up for themselves, and the longer they wait to do it, more violent it will be when it happens. Call these people fascists all you want, deride their concerns all you want, but if you stop them AND ignore their issues, you won’t like what comes next. And it will be the left’s fault because they stood against every non-genocidal solution. If the liberals get their way, the endgame is all muslims being marched out of Europe at the points of bayonets.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

Funny how someone who espouses traditional values and country first is a 'fascist.'

Ceciliahere म्हणाले...

Italy needs a strong government to help solve its myriad of problems. Maybe a woman can do the job.

n.n म्हणाले...

Robespierre was a terror. Hitler was Pro-Choice. Stalin was inclusive. Mao was an equitable leader of left-wing ideology and progressive collateral damage. Then there was Mandela's Xhosa vs Zulu, Hutu vs Tutsi vs Hutu, Kenyan elites condescension of Keyan deplorables, etc. in the recent past, present, and forward-looking authoritarian models.

n.n म्हणाले...

The governing spectrum is from least to most intrusion, and a least to most nexus that engenders the most. Right-left labels under an archaic model and in a linear spectrum. Nationalism is a week correlation (e.g. skin color), while transnationalism is necessarily equitable and inclusive (e.g. democratic/dictatorial duality).

Original Mike म्हणाले...

The EU, in the person of EU Commisioner Ursula von der Leyen, has decreed that if the Italians vote for the wrong person there will be consequences.

But Giorgia] Meloni is the authoritarian.

Bill R म्हणाले...

"Fascism" was always a staple of Stalinist propaganda. Trotsky was a fascist. The kulaks were all fascists, hoarders and wreckers were fascists, eastern Europeans desiring freedom were fascists, the Americans were fascist, NATO was fascist. Even that long forgotten variant on Socalism, actual Fascism was fascist.

Now it's been more than 75 years since the last self-admitted fascist in the world ended his earthly journey hanging from his heels in a Milano gas station.

But still, lefties like the New York Times are so accustomed to parroting Stalinist propaganda that they just can't give it up. Squawk a new squawk guys. This one's getting tiresome. Comrade Stalin will forgive you, I'm sure.

n.n म्हणाले...

Interesting juxtapositions: traditional family vs transgender spectrum, emigration reform vs vs immigration reform, nationalism (i.e. governing jurisdictions) vs transnationalism, morality vs ethics, pro-life vs pro-choice, etc.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

'If you're a cabal of bankers and politicians and you're looking at a $2 trillion dollar economy that you need to keep going for some decades, and their birthrate is 1.27 live births per women, you might consider importing some workers.'

Countries should have a say in who those workers are.

Italy doesn't need every sharia-loving illiterate who can cling to a boat...

Original Mike म्हणाले...

"I think southern Italy has been crushed by (inter alia) the endless illegal migration from North Africa so beloved of the EUrocrats"

Meloni needs to pull a "DeSantis".

Andrew म्हणाले...

"Protectionism, tough-on-crime measures, and protecting the traditional family" are equivalent to Fascism?

I've been a Fascist my whole life and didn't know it!

But I do draw the line at "hard right." That just goes too far.

wildswan म्हणाले...

We can see in the case of the Ukraine 2022 that people who have been under a Communist government can still recover, understand freedom and fight for it. Others can understand the fight. Neither Europe nor the US is giving in to Putin's threats and bullying. This opposition is neither socialism nor fascism. Socialists, communists and fascists think the world in 2022 is divided by a struggle between socialist, communists and fascists as it was in 1922. But just as there was and is a desire for social justice apart from socialism and communism so there was and is an attachment to national traditions of political and personal freedom which is apart from fascism. For some the two overlap in a meeting place outside of 20C enmities. Those who belong in that meeting place know we are Better Together and avoid the vile attempts at personal degradation in which socialists, communists and fascists indulge in place of an acknowledgement of personal rights and sincere policy differences.

gspencer म्हणाले...

England and France - always there when they need us/US.

walter म्हणाले...

Is there a campaign website for this "far right" fascist baddy?
I don't find one via search.

Larry J म्हणाले...

“ Blogger Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker said...
Funny we never hear about the "Far Left" - from the media.

The Far left who run collapsing and corrupt crony-socialist nations all over the globe.


but eeeeek - Far Right"

Today’s Left, which naturally includes almost all of the press, are so far from the center that tge light from the center is red-shifted. Naturally, everyone else is the “Far Right” from their perspective.

William म्हणाले...

I don't follow Italian politics close enough to know how to spell Berlecsconi's name right. I do remember that he was the premier or president or whatever of Italy for a number of years. He was a world class sleaze but I don't recall him being a Fascist or taking Italy and Europe over the cliff.....Meloni is no Finnish prime minister, but she's reasonably good looking. I'd pick her over Pelosi any day. Pelosi looks more like that woman who was Mao's wife and Gang of Four member than Meloni looks like Mussolini. If Pelosi remains in charge of the House of Representative the Red Guards will come for us long before Meloni starts force feeding her opponents castor oil.

Rollo म्हणाले...

Borgen, the Danish political series, was an eye-opener for Americans, and prophetic. The "far right" party that everyone was so scared of wanted to limit immigration, but also opposed cuts to pensions and social spending. The heroine's "Moderate Party" was further "left" than the Socialist Party, which still had to worry about its remaining working class supporters having jobs.

Buckwheathikes म्हणाले...

This is good.

The media is SCARED. They see what's coming and it frightens them.

Ya'll should be scared. Because we're coming for your asses.

Temujin म्हणाले...

Jeez. They make her sound almost as evil as DeSantis.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

I saw the interview she did with Maria Bartraromo on Fox Business. She literally said she is running on a freedom platform. Free speech. Free from excessive taxes. So like Trump her decision to run on freeing up the country’s energy is the main reason for the F word they tag her with.

William म्हणाले...

Napoleon had more in common with Mussolini than he did with Charlemagne. The left was okay with Napoleon and autocratic rule. His despotism tilted in ways that they favored. For quite a long while, the left believe that an autocratic government was the best way to introduce their enlightened ideals among the populace. The populace that was too ignorant or superstitious to accept enlightened ideals could be eradicated and it never bothered their sensibilities. The French Republic killed about 250,000 people in the Vendee region of France. The mass murders were sometimes of genocidal proportions. The deaths of those peasants are not mourned in any novels or operas. Fuck them....The most totalitarian government in Europe was that of Lenin's. Lenin had killed millions before Mussolini had bought his first black shirt. I think Mussolini and Hitler followed down the path that Lenin had trail blazed. I don't think they could have existed save for his example. They had a different set of enemies, but Lenin deserves credit for introducing the ruthless mass murder of ideological,class, and religious enemies into the twentieth century. I note in passing that more tears were shed for those Bolshies who died during Stalin's show trials than for the millions who died during the Bolshie famines that they had directed....The madness of Europe during the post war years was a shared corporate enterprise between the left and the right.

John henry म्हणाले...

Narr said...
the prejudice and racism that Italian immigrant workers faced in places like Germany

Lots of violent discrimination and prejudice against Italian immigrants in the us up through the 1960s. Really bad in the 20s & 30s.

John stop fascism vote republican Henry

Crazy World म्हणाले...

How DARE anyone have traditional values!

hpudding म्हणाले...

Lots of feelings in these comments. Not many facts.

Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing. It’s about the same right-wing fixation with purity and strength that the right idealizes. In its most extreme, these elements are distilled into loyalty to the one person embodying the hyper-masculine uber “virtues” of the ethnic nation as he smashes the foreign and internal “enemies” always somehow threatening to overtake an idyllic, traditional, national “family” of the past that never was. It’s a reverse utopianism that pretends returning to a mythologized past will provide all the glory that life has not offered its (typically conservative) malcontents, if only it’s pursued with enough ruthless power as someone narcissistic enough to oversee such a thing would allow.

The grumblings on here about Nazis and commies are pure ignorance. Is Putin “left-wing?” His singular political ambition has always been to restore the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics - the country in whose power and repression Putin saw the most nationalistic RUSSIAN glory. He believes its downfall was the worst catastrophe in history.

Sound incoherent? That’s the right-wing for you.

Fascists have regularly been forced to expand their working-class appeal beyond the typical culture war stuff that of course never delivers anything beyond more disillusionment. So they put “socialist” in their title to do so while of course undermining the socialist ideals of equality and equanimity. That’s exactly what Hitler did, as well. It’s all about marketing. Fascists know they can never get enough votes until they pretend to be pro-worker/labor or otherwise of any use to any part of the economy beyond those who own it.

Rusty म्हणाले...

hpudding said...
"Lots of feelings in these comments. Not many facts.

Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing."
Nope. try again. History is your friend.

Static Ping म्हणाले...

What qualifies as "far right" among the journalist set is anyone who does not support the furthest left position they hold. These terms mean nothing anymore. They are just insults.

Jaq म्हणाले...

Five million illegals that have crossed the border since Biden telegraphed that they would be welcomed, but it’s nonsense to imagine a plot, and if you have any objections, you are a blood and soil fascist. It’s geometric logic.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing. It’s about the same right-wing fixation with purity and strength that the right idealizes.”

Thank you! It’s good to hear some reality about what fascism is. It’s always been far right, same as Naziism. Right. Not left. It’s astounding how educated people are so mixed up about far left/far right ideologies and the politics of both.

Jim at म्हणाले...

Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing.

Stopped reading right there.

Blah, blah, blah.

Take one, good hard look at who's acting like Fascists in the US right now. It ain't the 'right wing,' boy.

Jaq म्हणाले...

Why are fascists good in Ukraine and bad in Italy?

Lucien म्हणाले...

Funny thing, but the leader of the US is from a party that has its roots in slavery, treasonous rebellion against the United States, Jim Crow and eugenics.

JPS म्हणाले...

"Lots of feelings in these comments. Not many facts," writes hpudding before launching into a muddled diatribe.

"Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing."

In a definitional sense, sure. But if fascism is right wing, where should I place Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman? Were they moderates? Somehow less far to the right because they detested everything fascism is about?

The two-axis representation of politics (left to right, authoritarian to libertarian) would come in handy here. I'll accept fascism as a phenomenon of the right, but they're on an opposite side of the right from anyone whose ideas I would support or defend.

Not only are they not the opposite of socialists, they're competing, often successfully, for the same audience and within the same social space.

Re Russia: "Sound incoherent? That’s the right-wing for you."

Well, how about this: The left has authoritarian elements so strong that authoritarians on the right pine for their loss. The right isn't the only source of incoherence in politics.

Wince म्हणाले...

"Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos."

Drago म्हणाले...

hpudding: "So they put “socialist” in their title to do so while of course undermining the socialist ideals of equality and equanimity."

LOL

Somebody spent too much time getting high with their marxism 101 would be radical professor.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent म्हणाले...

Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing.

That’s why I prefer “goose-stepping totalitarian Stalinist clowns” when describing today’s Democrats.

Michael म्हणाले...

If they want to freak out about the far right, fascists,etc in Italy they should turn to CasaPound. The coolest and oddest of ultras

Aught Severn म्हणाले...


Blogger hpudding said...
Lots of feelings in these comments. Not many facts.


And your post added nothing to the fact counter...

Jaq म्हणाले...

Only stupid and ignorant people don’t think that trying to protect wage levels from being undercut by massive immigration is the worst kind of fascism. In fact introducing huge numbers of new unskilled workers to compete for their jobs and housing is not a strategy to benefit the owning classes, but it’s just tough love for those at the bottom.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

hpudding said...Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing

Referring to the European political divide, you are correct. Under the American, you are incorrect. Since we're talking about Italy, fine. Sure.

But what's your point? The issue is not whether fascism is left of right, but whether this Italian politician is fascist and whether it is helpful/useful/wise for the media to focus on the label while ignoring the underlying issues that make this politician popular.

Heywood Rice म्हणाले...

I saw the interview she did with Maria Bartraromo on Fox Business. She literally said she is running on a freedom platform. Free speech. Free from excessive taxes...

Will there be free pizza, and if so, how many toppings?

Dude1394 म्हणाले...

All while our democrat party practices actual fascism.

Clyde म्हणाले...

"Hard-right candidate" as defined by the hard-left, meaning to the right of Stalin.

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

There is nothing so Fascistic as the modern left.

- Krumhorn

Original Mike म्हणाले...

"His singular political ambition has always been to restore the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics"

Next you'll be telling us ANTIFA is an ANTI-fascist organization. 'Look! It's right there in their name!

Beasts of England म्हणाले...

’…these elements are distilled into loyalty to the one person embodying the hyper-masculine uber “virtues” of the ethnic nation as he smashes the foreign and internal “enemies”…’

Giorgia is a chick, dude.

Original Mike म्हणाले...

"It’s about the same right-wing fixation with purity and strength that the right idealizes.”

Bullshit. Provide some examples.

narciso म्हणाले...

now the Times engages in a peculiar formulation the agreed arrangement till tangentipoli, was the Church and the Christian Democrats whose ally in places like Sicily was the Cosa Nostra, to keep the Communists out, the former were the successor to the Catholic Center party,
Berlusconi formed an alliance between economic liberals, northern populists and the Alliance which are more socially conservative,

the Communists reformed in to the Democracy party, quelle surprise, whose standard bearer has been Draghi the banker, who stayed in the background until needs must, now he receeds into the background,

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Lawrence Samuels wrote on “The Socialist Economics of Italian Fascism” at Econlib in 2015, “In essence, the economics of Italian Fascism was Marxist and syndicalist-inspired—and far more left-wing socialist than the economies of many current western nations that embrace a mixed economy of socialism, welfarism and unionism. Now, if only economists and historians would, even if belatedly, recognize that fact.”

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

"Lawrence Samuels wrote on “The Socialist Economics of Italian Fascism” at Econlib in 2015, “In essence, the economics of Italian Fascism was Marxist and syndicalist-inspired—and far more left-wing socialist than the economies of many current western nations that embrace a mixed economy of socialism, welfarism and unionism. Now, if only economists and historians would, even if belatedly, recognize that fact.”

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"'Nazi' is German for 'National Socialist.'"

Hitler and the Nazis were "socialist" in the same way the "People's Republic of China" is a republic. In other words...not.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"Curious how I never see Liberals or Democrats described as being "hard left" in the Lamestream Media©."

Because they aren't.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

/what I want to know is how Putin [hands tied behind with UkRAINE imbroglio] was also able to interfere in Italian elections/

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"In a definitional sense, sure. But if fascism is right wing, where should I place Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman? Were they moderates? Somehow less far to the right because they detested everything fascism is about?"

There are shades of ideology across the spectrum, from far right to far left. (My ninth grade Civics teacher told us that far right and far left ultimately meet, and they become indistinguishable in their methods of control, even if they differ in their purported ideologies.) There is no contradiction in correctly calling some persons right wing, while recognizing that those same persons are not fascist.

I believe that many dictators do not truly adhere to any ideological basis for their authoritarianism...they simply have a drive to rule and have total control.

Trump was not a dictator by any stretch, though his calculated appeal to "the greatness of America and its people" and seeking to "MAGA," does draw from the fascist toolchest. I don't believe he has any genuine ideological or political beliefs, left or right. He is purely a self-seeking opportunist, an eternal grifter who knows how to charm and seduce those whose favor he wants or needs to achieve his goal. Trump's only guiding principle and goal is aggrandizement of his own wealth and ego. But, his amoral and belief-free pandering to disillusioned working people exemplifies the kind of behavior and rhetoric that could have led (or still could lead in the future) to a fascist political party, (more likely by younger Trump imitators than by Trump himself). Fascism grows among a hypnotized people who see their leader as the embodiment of he who will relieve their fears, frustrations, and resentments, and who will make manifest their aspirations and dreams. Fascism is a seduction by one of the many, and the many give the one his power by their adoration and yearning for a world in which all their dreams may be realized and their grievances avenged.

Drago म्हणाले...

Our Althouse fascist lefties shouldn't feel so bad about the election outcome in Italy. After all, Von der leyen has made it quite clear that fascisti socialists of Brussels are quite prepared to move against the Italian people if the Italian people dare vote their own interests and not the interests of the World Economic Forum.

minnesota farm guy म्हणाले...

Inga The full name of the NAZIS is National Socialist German Worker's Party. The socialist and worker's party bit should clue you in that the Nazis started out as socialists and went to hell from there.

Heywood Rice म्हणाले...

Baaaad things left, good things right.

Two feet bad, four feet good.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Blogger Robert Cook said...

"'Nazi' is German for 'National Socialist.'"

Hitler and the Nazis were "socialist" in the same way the "People's Republic of China" is a republic. In other words...not.


Cook is rewriting history again. Mussolini was editor of the first Socialist newspaper in Italy. Hitler was a Socialist. Cook is a far leftist.

Michael K म्हणाले...


Blogger Inga said...

“Fascism still is, was and always will be right-wing. It’s about the same right-wing fixation with purity and strength that the right idealizes.”

Thank you! It’s good to hear some reality about what fascism is. It’s always been far right, same as Naziism. Right. Not left. It’s astounding how educated people are so mixed up about far left/far right ideologies and the politics of both.


Projection is ugly, even from the resident dullard.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Original Mike said...

"I think southern Italy has been crushed by (inter alia) the endless illegal migration from North Africa so beloved of the EUrocrats"

Meloni needs to pull a "DeSantis".

No.

She needs to pull a Trump and send the illegals to remain in Africa.

Further embedding the Illegals into Europe solves nothing. It would just be a stupid stunt which is all our GOPe is good for.

ken in tx म्हणाले...

Almost all online arguments are about definitions. Authoritarians and totalitarians of all strips do the same things to various degrees. But don't you dare use the wrong labels when talking about them. American left and right are not the same as European left and right, much less the same as left and right of 70 yrs ago. Equivalating them is just a way of slurring one's opposition.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe म्हणाले...

Italy is a democracy, and they'll figure it out for themselves.

Not my problem.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Not to worry Lefties - you got the Cheney's on your side now.

Rocco म्हणाले...

"Curious how I never see Liberals or Democrats described as being "hard left" in the Lamestream Media©."

Robert Cook responded...
Because they aren't.

Well, OK. Let's call them the "Viagra Left" them.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

Joe is showing you how to do Fascism. Is Joe right wing?

The Godfather म्हणाले...

Or, we could wait and see how Meloni and her party govern Italy, and then decide whether they're fascist, or not.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Trump was not a dictator by any stretch, though his calculated appeal to "the greatness of America and its people" and seeking to "MAGA," does draw from the fascist toolchest.

Another screed from the resident communist. You are blind to what your favorite lefties are doing to this country. Open borders, no fossil fuels, electric cars when there is no system to sustain them. "Modern Monetary Theory" that holds that money can be created out of nothing. The lefty leadership will result as they always do. Disaster, famine, collapse of civilization. Hopefully, sanity will return but I would not count on it with people like Cook around.

Michael McNeil म्हणाले...

“'Nazi' is German for 'National Socialist.'”

Hitler and the Nazis were “socialist” in the same way the “People's Republic of China” is a republic. In other words… not.


And yet, the “People's Republic of China” isn't (and wasn't) socialist either — the Soviet Union (when it existed), neither! Socialism has never been tried, right? Right? (And if it has, where? What's the track record?)

Hey Skipper म्हणाले...

@Robert Cook: “ Hitler and the Nazis were "socialist" in the same way the "People's Republic of China" is a republic. In other words...not.”

Now do the USSR.

The terms “Left” and “Right” are meaningless. Instead, define the spectrum as between Collectivist and Individualist.

The distinction between socialists and fascists is without difference.

chickelit म्हणाले...

I am grateful, Althouse, that you give (and protect) such a forum. Regards to Meade.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

"Meloni does not, in fact, lead a “neo-fascist” movement. Is she “far-right” in the European sense? Sure, she is, but that doesn’t make her a fascist, and as far as I can tell, none of her proposed policies are fascist. They may make those on the left upset, especially regarding immigration and LGBT stuff, but that’s not the standard for fascism."

takirks म्हणाले...

It's always amusing to watch people use ideology to frame the world around them as they attempt to understand it, and then watch them fail miserably.

Listen to me, people: Being an ideologue of any stripe means that you either never did any thinking of your own, or that you found thinking hard and stopped at some point because it was easier to live in a world that conformed to your ideas.

Which it doesn't, and never will. To be an ideologue is to demonstrate that you are a moron, incapable of adapting to a world that changes, or to evaluate how your actions influence it honestly enough to identify failure on your part, and then modify what you're doing.

Most people who adopt any of the various -isms are utter morons, incapable of seeing any internal or external contradictions and then adapting their thinking. Any rational person would look at what they are doing, evaluate how well it was working, and then modify what they are doing based on that.

Do you see any of our "elite" doing that? Does anyone look at the economy and say "Yeah, that whole "print all the money you like and hand it out to your buddies" thing ain't working... Maybe we should stop, and try something else...?"

Why don't they do this? It's simple; they're ideologues who prefer to live in an imaginary world of their own creation, not the one that is actually out here in reality. If we still lived in the days of the hunter-gatherer, most of the "elite" would be dead, because they're the sort of creature that looks at the world around them and attempts to impose their own reality on it, as opposed to the "really real" reality that simply is. They'd be imagining happy friends saber-tooth cats, and wind up eaten by them. They could not survive, because imposition of an imagined template over reality does not work. You can only get away with this crap with civilization, and once you put these things in charge, well... The rest of us are screwed.

Ideology is a straight-jacket method of looking at the world and working within it. It works somewhat, in simplistic situations, but the more complexity that creeps in, the less you're able to template things. Why? Because your imagination is entirely inadequate to take in all the variables that reality can throw at you. Imagine that the big fluffy white thing over there is a Coke-swilling friendly pal to seals and other creatures? Fine, so long as you are a mid-20th Century ad copywriter living in New York City, but if you were a stone-age type wandering into the Eurasian deep arctic? LOL; yeah, you dead.

(cont)

takirks म्हणाले...

The biggest problem we have in modern society is that the sort of minds that can arrogantly presume that they've managed to suss out the way everything works, and have formed a mental map of how to conduct themselves based on that elaborate fantasy? They're not getting weeded out by nature, any more. They survive, and because they're such glibly persuasive fantasists, they manage to convince others to listen to them.

Any rational person would look at things these idiots have espoused and then managed to put into effect as polity, which are signally not working, and say "Yeah, maybe that guy is wrong and we should be charging bail and separating violent offenders from the rest of society..."

The fact that most of our elite aren't, and just keep right on doubling-down on the stupid? That's a sign that they're a "false elite" and do not deserve their position or the deference we show them. Based on performance, out here in the real world? Most of them badly need culling and separation from their jobs. They were never fit for them in the first place, and the fact that the rest of us don't hold them accountable for their failures and demonstrated inability to learn? That's a sign of how foolish the rest of us are.

Of course, once their failure becomes entirely undeniable, I suspect that the masses are going to get a clue, cease listening to the blathering of these self-identified "nature's noblemen", and eliminate them from positions of authority. Maybe even from breathing, if things get bad enough and they insist on this whole WEF program they've come up with.

Jason म्हणाले...

The biggest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing America's dumbest, most gullible, miseducated, ignorant and stupid individuals that the former editor of a communist newspaper, former premier of the Italian Socialist Party, and the author of "Trent as Seen By A Socialist" wasn't a socialist.

Rusty म्हणाले...

“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.” Benito Mussolini
Doesn't sound very right wing. Does it?
Benito Mussolini was a communist son of a communist father. Fascism was Benito Mussolini's attempt to make communism acceptable to the middle class. Hitler liked the idea and incorporated it into nazi-ism. This is historical fact. It is also historical fact that the American left, up until Hitlers invasion of Russia, thought that fascism was just fine and the US should emulate Germany or Italy. Not an opinion. Historical fact.

Rusty म्हणाले...

chickelit said...
"I am grateful, Althouse, that you give (and protect) such a forum. Regards to Meade."
Just so.

PM म्हणाले...

Having eliminated the word Conservative from our news organization, any mention of Right must be preceded by Extreme, Ultra, Hard or Far. We are currently focus-grouping Brutal, Savage and Brain-dead.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Compare Italy's immigration policies with Canada's.

Who's the "fascist" now? She's just trying to create policies like Canada's.

You can insert many liberal countries in place of "Canada."