From a Miss Manners Q&A (in WaPo) answering a question from a woman who doesn't like comments from her friends about how she's "overdressed" when she's really — or so she says — dressing for comfort.
२६ ऑगस्ट, २०२२
"And jeans, while pleasant for some, are like sausage casings for others. A good high-necked dress or a suit and tie may be genuinely more comfortable."
"(Miss Manners has more than one gentleman friend who prefers to wear the latter while aboard an airplane — or even while taking a nap.)"
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I'm that way. I prefer slacks and q jacket, or full suit, when traveling. I get better treatment, have extra pockets to carry items, and layers mean I can adjust as necessary when hot or cold. Plus it's just more comfortable.
I LOVE Miss Manners. She's by far my favorite etiqueteer (yes, oddly, I do have a hierarchy). My particular favorite thing about her is that she acknowledges - and celebrates - the role of etiquette in delivering an insult or making your negative feelings known; she is adamant that "good manners" does not mean "rolling over for all comers."
This is why we can't have nice things.
What is more curious is why people write to a columnist on rules of etiquette for all sorts of non-etiquette matters, or when they write not to ask about their own manners, but to bitch about someone else's perceived boorishness.
The real issue in this case was not about the comfort of clothing. It was about some TMI issues. But you know, sometimes people just need to get over their "that's my personal business" problems, but to explain to others in a non-TMI way.
The LW should have simply asked about the polite way of explaining to people that she has developed digestive issues over the last couple of years (COVID vaccine anyone?) and that if she eats certain things in a certain way there is a chance of sudden bowel control problems.
I LOVE Miss Manners.
Of course, Miss Manners is long gone. Replaced by a couple of rather rude and obnoxious advice givers who know little of, or care about, etiquette.
This probably has slightly more impact on men as my anecdotal observation is men's jeans have become more fashion-forward in their cuts than they used to be. The old standard square-waisted straight-leg working-man style has been replaced by skinny and low-rise cuts while the relaxed versions have too much fabric in the seat and thigh for someone with a near normal inseam to waist ratio. I see more men wearing cargo-style work pants for casual dress, and I was usually more comfortable in standard-cut Dockers than jeans.
Yoga pants are the sausage casings!
Can't judge women's dresses, but it's true that a good suit can be more comfortable than jeans.
"how she's "overdressed" when she's really — or so she says — dressing for comfort"
It's easy to be overdressed while traveling, since the standard is now American Slob.
Suits are expensive, Ms. Manners. Maybe when only the rich flew, suits were great. Now, hoi polloi fill the sky.
I want to see a person in long pants and long sleeves sitting next to me.
A nice suit jacket or blazer makes for a good wool blanket on an overly-air-conditioned airplane flight. But, c’mon, is a necktie ever comfortable?
In other words, the guys Miss Manners knows are always getting asked, "What's with the suit? Did you sleep in it?" She ain't the high and mighty refined lady she pretends to be. Ask anybody on the waterfront.
I don't understand what's wrong with sausage casings or how jeans are like sausage casings, but a few weeks back, Dr, Jill wore that dress like she was wearing a sausage casing. The shoulders are supposed to be bare. I guess Jill didn't get the right size.
From a Miss Manners Q&A (in WaPo) answering a question from a woman who doesn't like comments from her friends about how she's "overdressed" when she's really — or so she says — dressing for comfort.
The problem is her choice of friends. And that she is a WAPO reader.
And that she cares about those comments.
But the need to be a part of the tribe and to gain tribal acceptance is biologically hardwired. People who are not conscious and self aware will be upset by comments like this.
I dress a particular way when I go on long plane trips. The choices are all purpose driven. My membership in the tribe is not challenged.
I used to fly a lot more than I do now, but mostly up and down the West Coast so I use Southwest, and because of points when I do fly farther east I try to find Southwest flights.
Customer service and employee friendliness is top notch. I dress for comfort and since I never wear a suit any other time (suits are a silly, colonizing affectation in Southern California) I usually wear jeans or hiking pants and a long sleeve shirt with pockets.
I've long been intrigued by those who say dressing much nicer gets better service from airlines, but it's Southwest... so what much more am I going to possibly get that's worth the bother?
I guess I have the same rule/habit for dressing for church.
Again, everyone missing the point here.
Haven't worn jeans in 2 decades, since no longer fit in the pairs I had bought years earlier. Had 3 decade experience of flying in suits. One less thing to pack. Still like a jacket/blazer for travel because of the pockets, but never thought wool pants more comfortable than cotton for relaxing. But I look around in airports and train stations and never see traveler wearing jacket, let alone suit and tie.
Just last night I started down the rabbit hole of how to button a suit jacket (or blazer or sport coat or what have you) because I was watching the movie Sometimes Always Never, the title of which refers to the three buttons on a 3-button jacket. I'd never heard of that rule before. I have very, very few occasions to wear a jacket, let alone a suit anymore. Last time was at a friend's funeral. The daughters asked if I would do one of the readings and then awkwardly asked if I had a suit/coat to do so. . .because they'd never seen me dressed up before.
Sometimes I wish I could wear a suit every day. Ties I really like. Used to wear really up-to-date ones in the early '90s and then vintage ones later on.
Also, I could watch Bill Nighy read from the phone book.
For men there was nothing more comfortable than the old-style American suit before the skin-tight European style took over — it was like wearing the most comfortable pajamas yet you still looked reasonably sharp.
I prefer a casual dress or skirt over pants or shorts always. Dresses are more comfortable for me. I have a matronly figure and I am short. Dresses hide a lot.
The etiquette advisor that I would be interested in following would be the Southern Gentleman from one of Ann’s TikTok posts that addressed dining at a friend’s house. I remember enjoying his approach to manners. However, other than Ann’s compilations I don’t use TikTok so that may have been his only foray into etiquette.
But, c’mon, is a necktie ever comfortable?
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Yes. In my experience, if your tie is constricting then it's actually your shirt collar which is too small. Go up q quarter inch.
American men would have a different attitude towards neckties if they bought their shirts a halfsize larger. The move from 15-1/2 to 16 was a gamechanger.
One early Saturday morning in late spring, back when I was a grad student, I put on my shoes and some gym shorts - no shirt - and biked from my apartment to my lab on campus to check on an experiment I had running over the weekend. As I walked in to my shoulda-been-empty lab, four undergrads I worked with greeted me. They were there finishing some assignment from their class, together, at 8:00am on a SATURDAY. Unheard of, and not expected, or I would have dressed more appropriately, i.e., more fully.
Leaving aside the completely unexpected presence of these three females and one male, I was very comfortable, but admittedly very underdressed. Underwear, for example, should have been involved in my outfit. They looked at me like I was insane, and then went about their work, avoiding looking at me. I did my checkup on the lab machine as quickly as possible and left. Nobody ever said anything about this, ever again.
We won't talk about one of the school's popular group activities, jogging on the golf course nude after midnight with friends, which I had to deny doing to my research advisor after somebody misinformed him of my alleged participation. Why he cared I have no idea. Very comfortable, but again, underdressed for the event.
I have been overdressed, for example, wearing a tuxedo into the ER when my father had a heart attack on the way to my sister's wedding. Of the two extremes, I'd rather be underdressed every time.
umm,
jeans are NOT Supposed to be comfie, they are SUPPOSED to be Sturdy, you know? for clearing brush?
You know what ARE comfie? sweat pants!!
You know what are Even More Comfie? Shorts!
Who sells shirt collars by the quarter inch? Hard enough to find shirt sleeves by the inch.
I don't believe anyone actually feels more comfortable in a suit and tie. It is a ridiculous getup.
As a transactional lawyer, I used to wear a suit and tie every day. More and more, my clients were switching to business casual. One of the effects of COVID has been to end suits and ties for the lawyers in my offices. I still wear a jacket and slacks, because a jacket has lots of pockets and is more forgiving of a middle-aged physique than skinny jeans or "athlesiure" wear. The one suit I still wear through the summer is my cotton seersucker. It is as comfortable as pajamas!
I love to wear a suit or sports jacket., and have always thought of it as akin to a woman's purse. It held my wallet, keys, lip balm and whatever else was needed.
I like my britches' pockets to be empty. Comfort uber alles.
Social conventions and consensus.
“ Of course, Miss Manners is long gone. Replaced by a couple of rather rude and obnoxious advice givers who know little of, or care about, etiquette.”
Judith Martin has been “Miss Manners” for a long time. I like her book “Miss Manners Rescues Civilization.”
Oh, Mikee.
"I did my checkup on the lab machine as quickly as possible and left. Nobody ever said anything about this, ever again." Trust me, Dear. Plenty was said; you just weren't around to listen.
Neckties are fine when sitting up, standing, walking around, etc. But in the posture in which I end up on an airplane (head tucked down), I usually find my necktie constricting, because the collar is now at an angle vs. the downward curve of my neck. So I typically take my necktie off, unless it's a short flight and I'm just going be reading or working or playing games on my phone or something like that.
Judith Martin has been “Miss Manners” for a long time.
Judith Martin has not been writing that column for a while. And it shows in the answers.
The current byline says "Judith Martin, Nicholas Martin and Jacobina Martin," but you can be sure that it is only the latter two children of hers who actually are doing it.
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
“ Of course, Miss Manners is long gone. Replaced by a couple of rather rude and obnoxious advice givers who know little of, or care about, etiquette.”
Judith Martin has been “Miss Manners” for a long time. I like her book “Miss Manners Rescues Civilization.”
I, too, enjoyed Judith Martin’s Miss Manners columns and own one of her books. However, when I last read her columns (admittedly a couple years ago before I went cold turkey on the WaPo), she was transitioning to her son Nikolas and daughter Jacobina guest-writing the columns, and I noticed that they were less genteel and far more snarky—almost unkind. Very disappointing.
Regarding the etiquette questions, while I generally enjoyed reading them, I did find myself surprised at how often people ask her to approve their preferences. While I often agreed with her views, why does a grown adult need an advice columnist’s approval to tell his or her “friends” to mind their own business about one’s chosen attire?
The first time I flew on an airplane in the early 80s, I wore a sports jacket and Khaki pants (now called business casual) as required by my parents. Many of the men on the plane wore ties, the women were dolled up.
THis was on a fucking vaction trip to Mexico!
I was pissed at my parents. i just wanted to dress like a slob teenager. Now, everyone dresses like a slob teenager. Victory for the slobs.
I now wear tennis shoes, a polo shirt, and shorts. Why get dressed up, when none one else does? Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
I mean if you have fares so low, that the airlines have to cut service and jam you in like sardines, why dress like you're going to the Queen's ball?
"Like sausage casings for others."
All of it comes down to acquiring and wearing clothing that fits and doesn't bind you. I have worn dress shirts and ties comfortably when the collar of the shirt is wide enough. That is, if your neck is 17, get a shirt with a 17 1/2" collar.
Now, working from home, I wear what I want. But on-line meetings and hearings I dress up, and that includes dress shoes. If I do that I am proper and ready, and if any unfortunate camera accidents occur then I am fully dressed.
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