Said lawprof Maria Kolar, quoted in "This Sedative Is Now a Go-To Drug for Executions. But Does It Work? A legal battle in Oklahoma over whether prisoners feel severe pain after being given the sedative, midazolam, will determine whether its use is constitutional" (NYT).
A highly rated comment over there: "Please explain to me why there can be painless, peaceful assisted suicide and yet our prison system is totally inept at execution. Of course, this barbaric act of execution should never be a part of our society."
I thought that was interesting because it seems to accept assisted suicide while putting the death penalty beyond the pale. Traditionally, it was the death penalty that was accepted and suicide that was beyond the pale.
And if the question is the possibility that pain is experienced — there's no intent to inflict pain but it's possible that pain is felt — then one ought to face the comparison to abortion. Do those who care about the possibility of pain in the context of execution support the effort to cut off access to abortion at the point where it is possible that the unborn feels pain?
पोस्ट्स
८४ टिप्पण्या:
"... then one ought to face the comparison to abortion."
It is too much of a push to expect logic or consistency from people who find 60 million homicide s acceptable. This comparison has been made for decades to no avail.
People who want to find a painless method of execution have it backwards, especially among those who say they disfavor capital punishment.
Execution should invoke a certain measure of horror, but not necessarily prolonged pain.
If you believe in punishment fitting the crime, making execution anodyne means you've lowered the threshold of crime deserving the punishment.
Execution should be reserved for horrific crimes. Each and every execution should have to be justified against the horror of the punishment.
That is the way to limit society's demand for, and tolerance of, executions.
Two words. Nitrogen Asphyxiation. Suicidals an the condemned rejoice.
Hanging and firing squad are quick and sure.
Traditionally, it was the death penalty that was accepted and suicide that was beyond the pale.
The left has -- through a stepwise process of one-upmanship and virtue signaling -- reasoned itself into a unsustainable and incoherent ideology: Abortion great, suicide great, fewer children to protect the environment great, allocating resources to gender transition great, favoring transgendered males over females who are plainly in need of protection great, favoring "restorative" criminality over protecting non-violent residents great.
This is literally a widespread attempt to mainstream anarchy, and starkly at odds with the ideals of left in the recent past. It's not too far away from the philosophical anarchy that academics such as Noam Chomsky advocated in the abstract quite recently.
https://bigthink.com/the-present/noam-chomsky-anarchist-beliefs/
If this is not voted or forced into the political margins, it must lead to regional tribalism, petty warlords, and even walled cities. Medieval-style anarchy on the ground results in a medieval society where people "go medieval" to solve any problem.
The left today includes (1) rabid anarchists and revolutionaries, and (2) don't-rock-the-boat statists and totalitarians. These are not the same people at all, but #2 exploits #1 to gain and maintain its power.
Until recently gun control and anti-death penalty views were dominant on the left, as #2 held sway. With the rise of #1 in cities per Antifa, BLM, Defund the Police, etc. some on the left departed and joined the right. Many just don't know it yet.
The lack of honesty is pervasive. I don't support the death penalty, but I don't lie to myself or others either in claiming that it is unconstitutional. The opponents are lying about lethal injection and the various sedatives now being used due to the previous lies about execution by lethal injection. You really want a painless execution- fine- give the death row inmates a massive overdose of fentanyl after an injection of heroin. Of course, the opponents will then try to tell you that death by heroin and fentanyl is extremely painful and thus unconstitutional.
Given what happened at UW-Milwaukee, why not just place them in a room full of CO? They'll fall asleep.
If execution is the choice it should involve some terror, pain and public viewing as a deterrence those who would kill other humans.
Pay per view executions to help finance the prison system for those doing time for paper hanging, tax cheats, etc....
Althouse just opened up a huge can of cognitive dissonance but will the afflicted recognize the pain of their own choices?
If you're going to support capital punishment, then look it in the eye. This business of making it painless isn't for the condemned, it's for the rest of society to reassure themselves how humane they are, and it's misguided.
If you're not willing to stand the condemned against a wall and shoot him center-mass for what he did, how is this medicalized alternative of gurneys and anesthesia any better?
Personally I could support this only for the cruelest crimes, when there is absolutely no doubt who did it. And thanks to ambitious and unscrupulous prosecutors, plus the occasional mass hysteria, I'm increasingly skeptical of the concept of "no doubt."
Use whatever anaesthetic is used for operations but overdose it. You know that works painlessly.
Anyone who has had major surgery knows that you simply fall asleep and then suddenly wake up a few hours later. There is no experienced pain at all.
Thousands of these operations happen every day in the US. If you can put people under for surgery without pain, you can execute them more easily. I am agnostic on the death penalty, but the opponents are being dishonest.
In the age where state and federal Dept of Corrections budgets are growing exponentially, a firing squad would be a very inexpensive, quick, and highly effective option at a few dollars per bullet versus many thousands of dollars for a dose of the drugs to put the inmate to death. These inmates are on death row because they committed such a heinous crime of murder, where the victim(s) undoubtedly suffered more pain & discomfort than the inmate will suffer with the injection and the ultimate pain of actual death - why are the people complaining about the inmate’s comfort when they don’t even give a thought about how the inmate’s victim(s) suffered as he or she put them to death? This is part of today’s ultra-left Regressives’ thought processes where victims don’t matter, but the criminals’ rights do matter.
Is it ever possible for the Liberal/Left to act in good faith? All this nonsense about "Pain caused by a sedative". Moronic. If you are against the Death Penalty get the legislature to outlaw it. Quit with the bad faith legal arguements. Of course, if everyone would stop lawyers from doing this crap, we'd have better public square discussions over things. But of course, no one cares about that.
Ghost Town (2008)
- You died.
- I died?
- Little bit.
- For how long?
- Seven minutes.
- A bit less.
I died for seven minutes.
- A bit less.
- Approximately seven...
That's really the only thing that I can think of...
How did I die?
For the record, we did not recommend that you use the general anesthesia.
When you use anesthesia, there is a chance, although it is small, of a biochemical anomaly.
Where's the anesthesiologist? I want to see him now.
He does not work here anymore.
You'll be happy to know that at Saint Victor's, we have a very strict three-strikes policy.
My anesthesiologist had two strikes?
Okay, let's all calm down.
Let's just not overdramatize the situation.
Why is he calming down?
Everybody dies.
Yeah, but usually at the end of their life, and just the once and forever.
Everybody's different.
I’m opposed to the death penalty but by all accounts an opiate injection is profoundly blissful.
"Please explain to me why there can be painless, peaceful assisted suicide and yet our prison system is totally inept at execution. Of course, this barbaric act of execution should never be a part of our society."
Because the left has spent decades in lawfare preventing the use of humane methods of execution. The goal has always been to make it horrifying and painful so that they can argue it's cruel.
People who oppose death penalties use whatever argument is convenient.
In the trial of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the judge did not allow evidence about Dzhokhar's brother committing a previous murder. So, the death-penalty opponents on the Supreme Court said that the judge's decision should cancel Tsarnaev's execution.
If, however, that same judge had allowed that evidence, then those same death-penalty opponents on the Supreme court would have said that the judge's decision should cancel Tsarnaev's execution.
No matter what the trial judge decided about that evidence, the death-penalty opponents on the Supreme Court would have said that the decision should cancel the execution.
The same "reasoning" is being applied on the issue of midazolam and other such chemicals. The justices who oppose the death penalty are determined to use their positions on the Supreme Court so that any and every execution will be canceled.
Why can't we just go back to hanging? We have centuries of experience. Yes, there's the occasional botch, but we know all the formulas for doing it right. It's quick, painless and leaves no disfigurement on the executed
So why this switch to drugs?
They should test out the painless lethal injection on the January Sixers because treason is a Capital Crime.
I am opposed to the death penalty, because I don't trust the Justice system. I am opposed to abortion. There are ways to prevent pregnancy in this day and age, that doesn't require you to go to a doctor. Find them, if you have sex. We need people to start being personally responsible for their own lives. WE are not GOD. Who gives us the right to kill??
And there goes Howard being the Progressive that is the reason why everybody is divided and hates everybody else. The Cult of the Howards are the elites ruining America.
Good idea Howard; and if anybody is actually convicted of treason, and then sentenced to death, it would be appropriate.
Give Howie a break. He's had a lot of personal experience with toxic chemical exposure.
In addition to 24/7 filthy mask wearing, it's admirable that he can troll at even a marginal level.
Re the 1/6 'ers charged with treason? Insurrection?
What are the "unborn" charged with?
hello? The question is NOT whether it is "cruel", it's whether it is "cruel AND unusual"
If all murderers get broken on the wheel; then it Wouldn't be unusual
AND would PROBABLY deter a LOT of people (i Know it would me!)
Please explain to me why there is this totally unsupported assumption that there is painless, peaceful assisted suicide.
The only "peaceful" death is a natural one. That's because the body will struggle to survive if artificial means are used.
Howard? I KNOW you're mentally stupid; but please
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
Jan 6 was "levying WAR"? Really?
Jan 6 was giving "Aid and Comfort" to the enemies of these United States? REALLY?
What was the Aid? What was the Comfort? WHO were the enemies? WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID?
please go back on your meds
Nitrogen asphyxiation happens to people every year, who are unaware of it happening. Nitrogen, being 70% of the atmosphere, is inexpensive.
People who oppose capital punishment unconditionally will never allow an inexpensive and painless form. That's obvious enough, isn't it? Must it be spelled out? The conditional opponents--it might hurt, it's too expensive, it might be the wrong guy--are no longer onboard if those conditions are resolved.
Mark confusingly said...
The only "peaceful" death is a natural one
being naturally eaten by vicious wolves is "peaceful" ?
being naturally eaten be wild cats is "peaceful" ?
being torn open, dragged to a den and EATEN BY bears is "peaceful" ?
you keep using that word... i do no think that word means what you think it means
When you are put under for a colonoscopy, it's immediate 'lights out.'
Can't the dose of that drug just be increases 5X or 10X?
Problem solved.
I have no moral objection to capital punishment. After all, we send millions of guys to fight, knowing some will be killed, some crippled, and the medic's supply of morphine may be used up and....... no problem, right?
When you're adjusting arty at night, close to your position, how do you know you're on target? You hear the screaming.
OTOH, I wouldn't trust a prosecutor for the time of day, much less a traffic ticket. So, as a matter of criminal justice, no capital punishment, except possibly for being busted withholding exculpatory evidence.
The left:
'Abortion doesn't count because it isn't a baby.
Killing murderers is barbaric. We leftists like to conveniently forget that the killer killed someone.'
"Do those who care about the possibility of pain in the context of execution support the effort to cut off access to abortion at the point where it is possible that the unborn feels pain?"
We're not concerned about the pain of the innocent. We're concerned about the pain of the guilty.
If I die naturally, does God guarantee a "painless death"? I don't think so.
Did the murder victims get "Painless deaths"? Nope.
Also, notice that many of those who oppose the death penalty supported the wars in Afghanstan, Syria, and Iraq. They have no problem with innocent children dying painful deaths (collateral damage) and cheer when someone they dislike (like Ashli Babbit) gets gunned down. Lots of them agreed with Miss Lindsey that Putin should be murdered, painful death or not.
But that poor, poor, Muderer we wouldn't that poor baby to feel one second of pain.
People need to readjust their moral compass, assuming they have one.
If you want a painless death, just use the Guillitine. Or put a Gun to the back of the head, or over the heart and put a bullet in it. Quick death.
"Anyone who has had major surgery knows that you simply fall asleep and then suddenly wake up a few hours later. There is no experienced pain at all."
I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people. There is a Lenny Bruce routine in which he describes the experience, which he claims to have had. It's incredibly disturbing.
The gas chamber was the most humane method The anti-execution hysteria is political.
Blogger Howard said...
They should test out the painless lethal injection on the January Sixers because treason is a Capital Crime.
Hey, Howard. Why not gas chambers? That worked for 5 million political prisoners.
'I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people. There is a Lenny Bruce routine in which he describes the experience, which he claims to have had. It's incredibly disturbing.'
See my comment at 10:30am.
If you've ever been put under for a colonoscopy, there is zero pain except for maybe putting in the intravenous line.
Besides, if someone is being executed, they would be 'put under' only. They will not be operated upon and they will not wake up.
Whatever they might remember is irrelevant.
Round up all of the inmates on Death Row throughout the nation and put them in an isolated camp and drop a thermobaric MOAB. They won't feel a thing.
Now to be serious no one in life is guaranteed a painless death. As long as the method of execution is quick and not intentionally painful I don't see the need for this pointless judicial idiocy.
On the other hand death penalty prosecutions the defendant should be provided top notch lawyers and their investigators to provide an equal level to that of the prosecution. And subject cops and prosecutors to the death penalty if they withhold evidence or suborn perjury.
I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people. There is a Lenny Bruce routine in which he describes the experience, which he claims to have had. It's incredibly disturbing.
That evidence is good enough for a justice who opposes the death sentence and who intends to use his position to prevent any and every execution.
I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people.
Isn't that the pain of the surgery, not the anesthesia or its potential overdose?
Personally, I'm with Gilbert and Sullivan; let the punishment fit the crime. If they beat someone to death or tortured them to death they should die painfully by any means available.
Two words. Nitrogen Asphyxiation. Suicidals an the condemned rejoice.
Cheap, certain, and absolutely painless.
Why don't all the states with capital punishment use this method?
It is important to realize that when a person gives a justification for a position, sometimes that justification is an argument and sometimes it is an excuse. When it is an argument, the person has gone to at least some effort to work out why they hold that position. It may not be a very good effort, but at least there was a Point A to a Point B process. Reasoning with these people can at least be attempted.
The problem is that many people, including those that consider themselves intellectuals, is they hold positions because of purely emotional and/or tribal reasons. They may throw out arguments that they heard, but they have no idea what they mean or the flaws in said arguments. It is just a fig leaf to allow them to feel good about themselves without making an effort. There are no hypocrites in this camp; "I want this" is their motivation and everything they want is good.
As they say, you cannot reason someone out of an idea that they didn't reason themselves into.
I do find it amusing that the death penalty is "barbaric." Compared to what? I consider releasing a child molester back into public to be "barbaric." The current New York bail reform lets violent criminals back on the street almost immediately to assault more people; that's about as "barbaric" as it gets, but yet I am supposed to applaud the "social justice."
How much brain trauma does one need to experience to become overly sympathetic to the a absolute garbage that occupy death row? Pretty sure she would not be as sympathetic to Dylan roof either
gspencer said...
Hanging and firing squad are quick and sure.
3/9/22, 9:16 AM
Can we choose? Wait...who would be doing the choosing?
I'm with RideSpaceMountain and Gabriel here: If we're to have the DP at all, it should be cheap, secure, and free of medical intervention as much as possible. The drug "cocktails" we use now are vulnerable to supply-chain issues and medical objections, and there is always that nightmare scenario of the criminal in agony but unable to convey it to the watchers, because one of the "cocktail" ingredients paralyzes the body. Nitrogen asphyxiation fits the bill perfectly: When it happens by accident, which it occasionally does, people don't scream or convulse or anything; they get sleepy and lie down. And don't wake up. The sensation of stifling ordinarily associated with asphyxiation isn't from lack of oxygen, but the inability to get rid of CO2. N2 asphyxiation has already been approved for use in one state (I forget which).
The move to medicalized executions is, of course, designed to make allegations of cruelty and violations of medical ethics permanent. And why not? It's the only serious objection the opponents of the DP have, apart from principled arguments from Catholics and others whom the other DP opponents wouldn't touch otherwise.
Yancey Ward's suggestion of heroin/fentanyl is also good; God knows we confiscate enough of the stuff. And also JPS's of firing squads, which are military and kill very, very quickly, though not painlessly.
I had a half dozen cardioversion blasts to get out of afib under propofol (Michael Jackson's Magic Milk), was then awakened, waited for the bigger amp machine, put back under for a couple more blasts that got me to sinus. The sunburn on my chest hurt a bit after, that was it.
Wendybar: I'm with you 100% I am only against the Death Penalty because the criminal justice system isn't reliable nor fair enough to be allowed to kill civilians.
Planned parent/hood uses internationally approved, progressive methods and practices to behead, dismember, and otherwise eviscerate a human body until she is dead, dead, dead. Why not send the convicted murderer to the friendly neighborhood Planned Parenthood clinic for a capital abortion?
A human life is viable from around six weeks past conception with a heart beat and nervous system that approximates granny's at end of life, and a few weeks short of a convicted premeditated murderer. Capital abortion should be safe, rare, affordable, and progressive.
I've been completely under for surgery twice in my life and never felt a thing nor had horrible memories. I even declined the pre-anesthesia anti-anxiety drug (makes it harder to recover from anesthesia apparently), got wheeled into the freezing cold theater, went to sleep, woke up later. The advocates against the death penalty that use this debate approach are not arguing in good faith and should be called out relentlessly.
I'm Pro-death penalty in general principle but I do have some reservations on how our system carries it out, and sometimes on who it's being carried out on. But don't try to pull my heartstrings telling me about their terrible suffering - that's just bullsh*t and it ain't going to fly.
I thought the Left didn’t do hard questions?!
I had a colonoscopy last yr and the dope they gave me was wearing off before it was through. They would have given me more, but I said nah- I didn’t want to wait the extra time before I could be released. The pain I felt was like period cramps- tmi maybe- but, it’s on topic.
Tomorrow morning bright and early: gallbladder removal.If you don’t hear from me… &if u do, I’ll let u know my pain level during surgery. Hopefully, it’s as good as my colonoscopy, which was fine.
“Why not send the convicted murderer to the friendly neighborhood Planned Parenthood clinic for a capital abortion?”
You’re batting 1000+ 2day, n.n
God bless the babies.
Too barbaric to suggest the murderers go out the same way as their victims?
Althouse said: "Traditionally, it was the death penalty that was accepted and suicide that was beyond the pale."
Traditionally, we were a nation with a guiding moral compass and a healthy respect for the laws and civilities passed down through the many churches that dotted the landscape. That time has passed.
“They should test out the painless lethal injection on the January Sixers because treason is a Capital Crime.”
Comment deleted.
This comment has been deleted by the author:
( b/c it was unChristian to call someone by those words.
Unfortunately, the commenter’s comment being commented upon& deleted- should have thought twice about the honesty of it’s content.
It takes all kinds…
Be best.
Althouse.
"I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people. There is a Lenny Bruce routine in which he describes the experience, which he claims to have had. It's incredibly disturbing."
The only weird one was cataract surgery. You're awake. It's kind of like the half awake state. You can feel what's going on, but there's no pain. They talk to you.
As far as other surgerys go it was painless. Hip. Oral. And defib for Afib. One second you're there and the next you're waking up.
So. If you have to go it wouldn't be a bad way.
Years ago, when I was still a surgery resident, we had a woman in shock with dead bowel. We could not get her out of shock so I operated on her without anesthesia. Once we had the dead bowel, and the toxins it was releasing, out of her belly she came out of shock. The anesthesiologist then gave her a new drug that erased her memory of the incident. He then had her sit up and say, ""Dr Kennedy I am four plus." She didn't remember a thing.
I have known of a couple of cases where a patient woke up and was paralyzed so unable to indicate the pain. One was a famous Harvard surgeon who was getting anesthesia by the chairman of the department. He woke up and was in terrible pain. He thoi9ght that his blood pressure must by sky high and they would realize he was in pain. Then he heard his colleague say, Dwight's blood pressure is very high. I had better give him something for that." Completely missed the implication of pain.
Lesson: Don't have the chair of the department give your anesthesia.
Good luck, farmgirl...
Howard said...
Wendybar: I'm with you 100% I am only against the Death Penalty because the criminal justice system isn't reliable nor fair enough to be allowed to kill civilians.
This is 100% correct.
I wish there was an up or down thumb for these great threads at Althouse.
"A human life is viable from around six weeks past conception with a heart beat and nervous system that approximates granny's at end of life"
... brain not included.
Based on your logic, there must be an age where the brain and nervous system slips back to compare to a pre-18-year-old and thus we should look into removing the vote from elderly.
That is if you really thing granny has a nervous system equivalent to a fetus, which I doubt is true.
I wonder what age fetus Michael K's brain equals.
Micheal Jackson's Propofol.
They put me on the table for an endoscopy, and colonoscopy. The anesthetic of choice was Propofol. It's not like opiates with warm fuzzy feelings. It's more like being blacked-out drunk.
This painful execution idea is bullshit. It's right up there with climate change, and Biden really, really beat Trump.
By the way, they said it would be cheaper if they could use the same tube twice. I never asked which end they evaluated first.
I’m against abortion after the fetus can experience pain and I’m against the death penalty. Some people deserve death for their crimes. But I’m still against it because I don’t trust the criminal justice system to get it right and believe the practice to be barbaric.
Mark,
Based on your logic, there must be an age where the brain and nervous system slips back to compare to a pre-18-year-old and thus we should look into removing the vote from elderly.
Well, dementia doesn't happen to everyone, y'know. But based on your logic, abortion ought to be allowed up to the age of 18. Even Philip Dick (The Pre-Persons) had a maximum age of 12. Or when you could do higher math, whichever came first.
Have they tried giving the condemned an overdose of heroin seized in drug raids? It is an opiate so you go to sleep before going to dead, or is that too sensible to be legal?
Ah, midazolam. I've given the stuff in a professional capacity and had it as a patient. Magnificent drug, that its creators did not get the Nobel Prize for Medicine, well they wuz robbed. Add a wee dram of fentanyl - and some would toss in a note of ketamine - and you actually leave the Time Space Continuum entirely for a short time. Now some of these criminals may have made repentance sufficient to atone for their acts. If so, great. The others emerge from a pleasant alternative reality and pass into a permanent state much less pleasant.
T
”Of course, this barbaric act of execution should never be a part of our society."
Well, if people would stop committing heinous crimes that merit execution as a punishment, that would end execution. Perhaps the unnamed Times commentator would like to work on that? I had no problems with McVeigh being executed, and will have no problem when Tsarnaev gets strapped onto the gurney.
I don't see the need for this pointless judicial idiocy.
The Left and activist judges are frustrated because the Constitution makes it very clear that some form of death penalty is Constitutionally permissible, and no amount of hand waving, emanations or penumbras can fix that. Not even the one size fits all, magical Fourteenth Amendment. They also know a Constitutional Amendment to ban the death penalty will never pass.
So we have this assumption that any amount of pain is cruel.
Does that mean my dentist is being cruel to me?
"the criminal justice system isn't reliable nor fair enough to be allowed to kill civilians. "
But go ahead and drop the hammer on entrapped 1/6 ers until at least one decides to very uncomfortaby yhang himself.
But for those who undeniably deserve death, what about the uber deadly/efficient Fentanyl?
(I think we have now Howie has endured multiple shocks to his system..explaining so, so much.)
Death, where is thy sting, oh grave, where is thy victory.
A highly rated comment over there: "Please explain to me why there can be painless, peaceful assisted suicide and yet our prison system is totally inept at execution. Of course, this barbaric act of execution should never be a part of our society."
I thought that was interesting because it seems to accept assisted suicide while putting the death penalty beyond the pale. Traditionally, it was the death penalty that was accepted and suicide that was beyond the pale.
So, the first question is:
Are all those "assisted suicide" methods as painless and peaceful as their supporters claim?
Second question:
What kind of person obsesses about whether or not a raping murderer dies peacefully, but couldn't care less whether a cancer patient dies peacefully?
The empathy failure here is really epic
Josephbleau,
Death, where is thy sting, oh grave, where is thy victory.
O Beth, Beth, where is thy thing? O Dave, Dave, where is thy dick for me?
The thing of Beth is thin, and the length of his is . . . quite long.
In all honesty I couldn't help myself; those are lyrics to Messiah by the members of Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, maybe thirty years back.
This whole issue is bullshit. Find one person, ONE who expresses concern about this, but who is willing to go on record as saying that if you can find a completely painless method of execution, they’ll be all right with it. It’s just a smokescreen for being opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances.
Similarly, find one person who’s “pro-choice” who would change their mind if it could be shown that the fetus experiences pain.
There are no principles involved, just rhetoric to justify a stance taken for other reasons.
Althouse said:
I heard that it might be that you just don't remember the pain and also that some people do completely feel it but they are completely immobilized and unable to convey their misery to the other people.
_______________________
Zero-oxygen asphyxiation is completely painless. This has been demonstrated thousands of time by people in planes before oxygen, by those suffering carbon monoxide poisoning, by people fooling around with helium. You can try it yourself at home. And you can monitor an EEG while it’s going on, and see that there’s no consciousness.
The claim that someone might be suffering immense pain is just a lie.
I’ve had to put down four pets in sixty years. None of them suffered any pain. Why not bring in some veterinarians and solve this problem? They don’t have any qualms about euthanizing their patients and they are kind.
Do any of these so-sanctimonious types ever consider the trauma and terror that the usual victim of violent criminals feels, before they die?
I'd be 100% for treating the murderer precisely as they treated their victims. Same with the rapist--You feel like getting your jollies hurting others? Guess what? The rest of us feel perfectly entitled to inflicting that same pain on you.
Hell, I'd televise it as a salutary lesson to other sociopaths.
Granted, before taking that step back to civilized life, I'd want to reform the current travesty of a legal system such that the cops, the prosecutors, and the judges were better policed and incentivized to get things right. Possibly by mandating that when they get it wrong, the exact sentence they affirmed on the innocent they convicted is then carried out on them, personally. A measure of accountability ought to concentrate their minds wonderfully...
"Do those who care about the possibility of pain in the context of execution support the effort to cut off access to abortion at the point where it is possible that the unborn feels pain?"
Since the defenders of abortion now seem to favor allowing abortions during the entire 9 months of a pregnancy, it would seem that the answer is NO.
But of course, nobody would argue that it's OK to take a human life if the victim is protected from feeling pain-- except of course in the matter of abortion.
Assisted suicide.
Such a contradiction in terms.
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