In a field surrounded by the people he had been sent to fight, a young Russian prisoner of war hungrily gulped down the tea and bread they offered him. A Ukrainian woman calmed him, telling the soldier not to worry. Using her phone, she made a video call to his mother. As soon as his mother appeared on the screen, he burst into tears.
“Everything is OK,” his female captor said, while others stroked his back. “Natasha, God be with you. We will call you later. He is alive and healthy.”
The video is widely circulating. Here's one place to see it.
पोस्ट्स
६६ टिप्पण्या:
And if that doesn't work, hang the sons of Russian mothers from lamp posts and send pictures to the mothers who failed to keep their sons home.
This is GREAT! Putin's conscripts are failing, and making him look like sh*t!
Everything he's tried, has failed.. HE is Failing! SOON, His Only Option will be the Nuclear one!
Awesome!... Wait a minute, let me rethink this
Great find. Thanks, Ann.
Ukrainians are really good at propaganda. Or maybe they really are all nice people and treat their captives well. I thought it looked like the young soldier had a black eye and bruising about his face, though.
I doubt it. Mothers aren't that great.
Wow. Talk about psychological warfare.
What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder.
I hope the London Times did its due diligence and confirmed this is in fact a Russian soldier. So many "viral" videos out there that Western viewers have misinterpreted or failed to verify (e.g. the "go fuck yourself" video).
Zelenskyy and Ukraine may only be holding on in the ground war, but they are crushing Putin in the media war.
Vlad says this proves they're effing Nazis.
Howard says Trumpist propaganda.
Kamala strings together a bunch of words signifying nothing.
Joe says I was promised a pudding cup.
I say we're fucked no matter which way we turn.
tim in vermont said...What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder.
There are rules about subjecting prisoners to propaganda, but I don't know of any prohibitions against releasing a video of them calling their mother. And none of it matters if it's not being done by the military anyway.
"What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder."
As do I.
Does one hungrily gulp down tea, or thirstily?
The Geneva Convention dealt with the actions of governments in this case, it never anticipated civilians with cellphones. Yeah, probably filmed for effect, but I've known folks like that. Wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of a gun from them, but they treat innocent strangers like they'd want their own sons to be treated.
THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN.
IT'S THE LAST DAYS FOR PUTIN.
The WEF-backed Ukraine is fighting a 21st century narrative war. Russia is fighting an old-fashioned war-war. Chinese media, which doesn't suffer from narrative delusions like America's, notes Russia is making steady progress at a decent pace, and that comparisons to US forays into Iraq are inappropriate since the US spent a month bombing the country before walking into the "charred hut", as I saw it called. WEF-backed, fighting for "the new world order", etc.; NOT so much western-backed, since as Mearshimer prophesied in a speech on YouTube in 2015, the west led UKR "down a primrose path" making promises it had no real intention of keeping re UKR defense. Recall, Obama sent blankets, not bombs and armaments.
And now, in the throes of Gell=Mann amnesia, the American populace has licensed its media to launder its tattered reputation with this "war reporting", which is little more than one-sided narrative fabulism, demonstrated clearly by the repeated calls to disallow Americans from viewing RT and other sites from different points of view. "Censor them!" they say; it's for the children.
For all the reporting, when you subtract the overarching "THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN" Trump/collusion narrative stylings from Putin's boondoggle, what's left that's worth paying attention to, much less paying for?
The dogs bark but the carnival moves on. Our press is a one-trick pony and is leading Americans and the west towards a cliff using obvious bullshittery but is so wedded to the narrative that nothing and no one will stop it. Amazing!
There are rules about subjecting prisoners to propaganda, but I don't know of any prohibitions against releasing a video of them calling their mother.
This is the kind of double think that amazes me.
Ukraine, in the west, is the noble underdog fighting above it's weight class and holding it's own. Further, it's dominating the propaganda and war-image effort. I give them huge credit.
At the same time, I look at all major U.S. reporting, and I know I have no idea of what's actually going on in Ukraine. Reddit helps some, but it's also an echo chamber.
BTW, the negotiations on giving Iran the atomic bomb are going great! Since desperation for oil from is now driving them. Negotiators giving away the store to lift Iranian sanctions right now. Putin's ally much happy.
My wife is Lithuanian, but she grew up in Klaipeda, which had a half-Russian population, and so she speaks Russian fluently. She and I usually speak with each other in Russian.
Although I have quit Facebook, she still is on it. In the past several days, she has spent a lot of time watching Facebook Russian-language videos that have been posted about the Ukrainian situation. Many of these videos have been made and posted by people in Ukraine. Some of those people are ethnic Russians, some are Russian-speaking Ukrainians, etc.
I have watched many of these videos over my wife's shoulder. These videos are tremendously effective criticisms of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I suppose that these videos are watched by many people in Russia.
I'll describe a few of these videos that my wife and I watched yesterday evening.
One woman -- one parent was Russian, the other was Ukrainian -- owns a horse-stable business in Ukraine. She was weeping about how she did not have food or water to give to her many horses. She said she now hates all Russians.
Three Belarussian policemen talked about how they had been deployed into Ukraine, having been told that they were supposed to help guard some sites against "terrorist" attacks. They were injured by gunfire and were captured. Now they were giving a press conference, telling how they had been duped into their mission under false pretenses.
A movie producer challenged people in Russia's movie business to use their celebrity and artistic talents to protest publicly.
One extremely eloquent woman -- perhaps she was a professional actress -- spoke a diatribe expressing her fury. Some of her video was illustrated by video clips of children who had been injured by Russian bullets or bombs.
------
My wife watches such Facebook videos by hours. There are many, many such videos. The few that I happened to watch were all very effective protests against the invasion.
I don't know about the Geneva Conventions, but I do think this would be a contravention of the Hague Conventions (1929):
Art. 2. Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or formation which captured them.
They shall at all times be humanely treated and protected, particularly against acts of violence, from insults and from public curiosity.
Measures of reprisal against them are forbidden.
Are they still in effect?
That said, the Russians have never been particularly good about adhering to the laws of war (well, maybe they were under the Tsar?) so I don't think they'd have much standing to complain here. And yes, the Ukrainian propaganda machine is incredible. Much better than the Russians, although -- to be fair -- the Russians are the ones invading, and there are a lot of countries who have had the misfortune to be invaded by Russians. So they have a much heavier lift.
I watched the video. It seems genuine. the lady with the young soldier seems genuinely concerned about him. At one point she waves off someone with a camera who gets too close to the boy. I don't speak Russian or Ukrainian, but the tone of voice certainly seemed almost motherly.
It's gut-wrenching to watch, particularly as my 16 year old son, who looks a bit like the young soldier just asked me about having to register for Selective Service and if he was going to get drafted.
As to whether it's a violation of the Geneva Convention? I don't think so. Primarily because, at least in this cass, It's not something that the Ukrainina government appears to have control over. It's no different than the newsreels in WWII showing US G.I.'s giving a smoke to baby faced Wehrmacht soldiers. And you can bet your sweet bippy that THOSE had to make it through an Army censor.
It's hard to know what is real and what is staged.
Okay, former Army MP who served as a camp guard in United States POW camp during the first Gulf War here.
According to laws of land warfare, signatories (or the successor governments of signatories) can't photograph PWs and release to the public. Personally identifiable photographs are specifically forbidden, although photographs of the camp and/or PWs from a distance are okay. That being written - partisans are not signatories. HOWEVER....if the partisans abuse prisoners then the government that sponsored them (or allowed them to operate) can be held to account, and individual partisans could (theoretically) be tried if a War Crimes tribunal is convened.
Is this abuse? I don't know. Certainly it's propaganda and would be prohibited if the Ukraine gov't is involved. The hurdle for trying civilian partisans would be so high that unless the PW were murdered or something along those lines, I can't see anyone trying to bring charges.
Except maybe the Russians - as part of their internal propaganda they might try to make a stink about it after the ware when the oligarchs are trying to re-establish control
@tim in vermont, I'm generally with you. GC requires treating captured military combatants with respect. Don't know if there's a specific prohibition on using them *in* propaganda but certainly it's been interpreted that way. This is probably something of a gray area since simply showing pictures of captured troops is generally ok and it's civilians holding them. Didn't notice if this was Ukrainian government released.
tim in vermont said...
There are rules about subjecting prisoners to propaganda, but I don't know of any prohibitions against releasing a video of them calling their mother.
This is the kind of double think that amazes me.
=========
who will hold whom accountable? when all refuse agency and accountable?
I wonder what the reporting would have looked like if current cell phone technology had existed in 2003 Iraq.
The claim this is against the Geneva Convention is rather silly. Kiling POW's is a war crime. Having them call their mother isn't.
I'm glad this teenager was alive and well and was able to call his mother. Others aren't so fortunate. This dumb unnessary war needs to stop. The Ukrainians should negotiate terms now before more men die.
They can't win and all this moronic "Rah, Rah, Ukraine" just encourages their leaders to keep the war going, when they can't win.
This is really stupid and fucked up.
If Ukranians want to make sure Russians fight as hard as possible they will keep putting out videos like this.
You impugn the leadership, not the rank and file. This will be used to motivate.
If they allowed the POW to maintain dignity instead of humiliating them the Russian army would be more likely revolt instead of fight harder.
I had heard the Russian soldiers in Ukraine were poorly fed, but that kid was definitely hungry.
I suspect that if we were in a war, our LGBQWERTY, "woke" and trans "soldiers" would be bleating like frightened sheep, demanding their "safe spaces".
Think of "Upham" in "Saving Private Ryan".
What you are reading and hearing has little or no relation to what is actually happening. Especially the case for human interest stories like this one.
Even in Desert Shield/Desert Storm, which was much more organized and open to the press, and the media was much more experienced and professional, what was printed told very little of what was actually happening, and that rather badly.
What is happening now? I would guess almost unimaginable incidents of senseless brutality and cruelty on both sides.
The Slavs didn't manage to occupy geographic region with few natural barriers by being nice. Warsaw pact military strategy didn't place high value on soldier survivability or the avoidance of civilian casualties.
Artillery is horrific, even the non-thermobaric, non-nuclear stuff (especially the non-thermobaric, non-nuclear stuff), and does not discriminate between combatant and non-combatant in an urban setting.
Putin has not shown himself to be overly concerned about the niceties of the law of war or what the world thinks. He does, however, have a record of dogged persistence.
I don't think the Ukrainians much care about the rules either.
It is ugly, and it will get much uglier.
Too good to be true.
I'm calling bullshit.
Balfegor said...
I don't know about the Geneva Conventions, but I do think this would be a contravention of the Hague Conventions (1929):
.
.
.
Are they still in effect?
I don't think that Ukraine or the Russian Federation are members of the convention.
What teenage boy isn’t going to surrender to the beautiful blue-haired girl?
Wait a minute. Did that soldier go to the Kyle Rittenhouse crying 😭 school?
Very convenient this crying 😉
The Ukrainians are certainly winning the propaganda war. Maybe because they have an actor as president instead of the usual thug. Somebody once asked Reagan about his career as an actor as preparation for the presidency. He said, "I don't see how anyone could be president without being an actor first." Another example.
Achilles now actively shilling for Putin. Sad
If Ukrainians want to make sure Russians fight as hard as possible they will keep putting out videos like this.
You impugn the leadership, not the rank and file. This will be used to motivate.
If they allowed the POW to maintain dignity instead of humiliating them the Russian army would be more likely revolt instead of fight harder.
It really depends on how you view the video. I found both the Russian soldier and the Ukrainian women standing next to him to be very sympathetic. They looked like they were standing at the finish line of a marathon, with the Russian having just run the race and the Ukrainians providing him with food and comfort. They didn't appear to be ridiculing him. Rather, they appeared to be attempting to comfort both him and his mother.
From a propaganda stand point, this video helps make Ukraine look more sympathetic -- full of good people who try to help the soldiers sent to invade them. This undermines Putin's claims that the invasion is necessary to rid Ukraine of Nazis. The point is to undermine Putin's justification for the war; it's not to mock his unwitting pawns.
rcocean said...
The claim this is against the Geneva Convention is rather silly. Kiling POW's is a war crime. Having them call their mother isn't.
It's not the calling home that some of us are concerned about but the act of filming the conversation and publicizing it. We don't know the full context of this kid's capture at all. Presumably his emotion and the demeanor of the Ukrainians is genuine but things in war are not always so nice. At the very least the kid had to realize at some level that expressing himself in ways that would make his captors uncomfortable could result in him being made uncomfortable at the least. Would you be thinking this was so innocent if the kid was confessing on the phone to shooting civilians or other potential war crimes?
Civilians- not an organized partisan forces acting as government surrogates- but civilians, cannot violate the Geneva Convention. Period.
Is Ukraine a signatory to the Geneva convention? An interesting question- to which the answer is definitely maybe. The Ukraine SSR, a supposedly independent nation signed the Geneva Convention. From Wikipedia, for this matter likely as reliable as any other source: Conventions I–IV and Protocols I–II ratified as the Ukrainian SSR. Since then the Ukraine has had two revolutions which have caused actual changes in government structure, and are therefore, not continuations of previous governments. Is the current government bound by treaties signed by the Ukraine SSR?
Interestingly, the supposedly independent country Ukraine SSR with a seat and a vote in the United Nations was not a member of the Warsaw Pact. Or was it? It wasn't a signatory to the pact, but it was an integral part of the USSR, so it was part of the pact...
IMHO, which is as good as anyone else's on the matter, Ukraine is not a signatory to The Geneva Convention until the government in power after the last revolution ratifies it. The whole point of revolutions is repudiating the previous government's actions.
Looking the list of signatories and year the following nations today because of government changes are not signatories of the Geneva Convention because of revolution or violent government overthrow or similar actions since they signed:
Afghanistan 1956
Albania 1957
Belarus 1954 (signed as Byelorussian SSR)
Hungary 1954
Libya 1956
Panama 1956
Romania 1954
There may be others- those are ones I recognize off the top of my head as having had the type of government changes in which the successor government breaks bonds of the previous one since signing teh accords.
This is very good propaganda, but it is propaganda. What is happening with Russian soldiers who are not being filmed?
Amazing how our minds work.
Howard accuses Achilles of shilling for Putin. You want to show us where he does this? It should be easy for such an erudite scholar and logician such as yourself. Since you've been shilling for statism and statists for what I would guess is most of your adult life, is your complaint that he's not shilling for the right statist? Youth wants to know.
tim in vermont said...
"There are rules about subjecting prisoners to propaganda, but I don't know of any prohibitions against releasing a video of them calling their mother."
This is the kind of double think that amazes me.
Do you know what "double-think" means? The difference between exposing prisoners to propaganda and (presumably this is your thought) using prisoners for propaganda is not small or subtle. They are tow entirely different things. And don't think I didn't notice that you left out a really important part of my comment--who's doing it matters as well.
Or maybe you're just really easily amazed?
"What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder."
Honored more in the breach than observed. NVA and China/Norks were big on torturing prisoners to get public "Confessions" of personal war crimes. Don't think anyone was punished.
I doubt that Putin will need a quasi-legal excuse to slaughter all the Ukrainian civilians he likes.
Blogger Achilles said...
"This is really stupid and fucked up.
If Ukranians want to make sure Russians fight as hard as possible they will keep putting out videos like this.
You impugn the leadership, not the rank and file. This will be used to motivate.
If they allowed the POW to maintain dignity instead of humiliating them the Russian army would be more likely revolt instead of fight harder."
Would you rather have them filming these kids by the side of the road getting a bullet in the head? No. This is actually a brilliant propaganda move aimed at the families of the Russian soldiers. Keep in mind this is Putin's dream of glory not the people of Russia. You can bet the family's of these Russian conscripts are telling them; First chance you get, drop the gun and head for anybody to surrender to."
DKWalser
With the left it's always NAZI's.
What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder.
Oh. NOW you guys care about what is happening in Ukraine.
(I'm giving up swearing for Lent.)
"What do the Geneva Conventions say about using POWs for propaganda, I wonder."
You could look it up! It's in the section right after the one about using thermobaric weapons against civilians.
Incredible. Putin invades and is systematically targeting and destroying civilian infrastructure as well as murdering civilians and some here are protesting perceived war crimes by the Ukrainians in the form of a video. What's wrong with you people? I would be fine with them cutting the balls off those soldiers and sending them home to mom in a cardboard box, making sure those mindless bastards can't reproduce to create another generation of mindless bastards.
Wheat "limit up" on Chicago xchang and inflation looking to come in at 10% It was sure worth it to avoid a neutral Ukraine! Thanks Joe! Negotiations impossible with the man who stole the presidency from Hillary!
What struck me, beside how amazing the video seems, is how hungry the soldier is, and how nervous he clearly was (sipping, sipping, sipping...- that's nerves). I guess when you're an invading soldier who gets captured, you should be nervous.
We don't know how real this is, but it sure appears to be the real thing. That said, I don't speak the language and don't know what's being said.
It seems to illustrate what we've heard, that the Russians did send their first wave using soldiers who were not their finest, not their most veteran. Those are the ones following now. We've seen reports of lack of food and fuel. This seems to support that. Or he just got cut off from food for a bit.
Anyway- I doubt very much this will embolden the Russians anymore. They have already crossed into another country and shot up the civilians. I would say they are already emboldened. But it may have the affect on a portion of the Russian troops who are beggining to wonder just what the fuck they are doing there.
So who is winning the war? Have the Ukrainians stopped or slowed the march on Kiev? Is Kharkov still Ukranian?
Winning the propaganda war but losing the actual war doesn't do a whole lot of good.
We need to pull Renaissance man Hunter Biden away from his canvas and deploy him as ambassador and chief negotiator. It would be a shame to squander such intelligence and experience on mere art. Though fine art is increasingly seen as a viable hedge against inflation.
"Oh. NOW you guys care about what is happening in Ukraine"
I know that I cared a lot when Biden gave Putin a green light and you didn't give a flying fuck. I know I cared a lot when Biden humiliated the US Military in Afghanistan and you guys didn't give a flying fuck, I know I cared a lot when Biden killed Keystone and clamped down on US oil production, financing Putin's army, and you didn't give a fuck, and now that Biden has blundered into this war, which Putin said in a speech a couple months ago was gonna happen if Biden didn't open up some talks, but you go ahead and feel superior becaus you "care" about it after it's too late.
Putin is what he is, who's fault is it if you get stung by a scorpion?
Achilles said...
This is really stupid and fucked up.
Your comment is really stupid and fucked up. This tactic is pure genius
If Ukranians want to make sure Russians fight as hard as possible they will keep putting out videos like this.
1/2 the Russian soldiers are conscripts somewhere in their 1 year conscription.
1/4 to 1/3 of those conscripts are, or should be, in training.
Total Russian Army size is less than 1 million
They've supposedly got ~200k invading Ukraine
What these videos and actions do is:
1: Tell Russian soldiers they can surrender, and not get killed
2: Gin up the anti-war sentiment in Russia
Do tell us, exactly what is it about this film that would make Russian conscripts "fight harder"?
You impugn the leadership, not the rank and file. This will be used to motivate.
How?
If they allowed the POW to maintain dignity instead of humiliating them the Russian army would be more likely revolt instead of fight harder.
What % of the Russian troops who are part of this invasion do you claim actually WANT to be part of the invasion?
"We were up against Russia pushing oligarchs and others to buy media. We were even up against phony environmental groups, and I’m a big environmentalist, but these were funded by the Russians to stand against any effort, oh that pipeline, that fracking, that whatever will be a problem for you, and a lot of the money supporting that message was coming from Russia." - Hillary Clinton
BTW, Hillary Clinton's campaign manager was the proud owner of millions of dollars in Gazprom stock, not that he bought, but that thy awarded him. It was in a "green energy" company (read laundering operation for foreign aid)
The green groups that rendered Europe utterly dependent on Russia's fossil fuel exports , and killed off his competition like Keystone and fracking, are the real Putin stooges, but total lack of imagination on your part led you to not understand how these moves led inexorably to the suffering you are witnessing today.
The only country that even pretends to try to follow the Geneva or Hague conventions is the US and perhaps the rest of the Anglosphere. We should just disregard them as the fictions they are.
Blogger Vance said...
So who is winning the war? Have the Ukrainians stopped or slowed the march on Kiev?
Have teh Russians taken over Kiev? No?
Then yes, they've "slowed the march on Kiev."
Last I checked, that "40 mile long column of Russian armored vehicles" is still 20 miles from Kiev.
How many supplies do you think they're burning through each day, just sitting there?
According to the Weather Channel app, it's cloudy and 34 in Kiev, snow expected in the next two hours.
How much gas do you think they're burning, just to stay warm? How long until they don't have any more gas to drive forward?
Do you really think "the war" will be over if Russia captures Kiev? You think there won't be any guerrilla fighting?
How many Russian troops have to die before the Russian Army pulls out? How long does any puppet government they leave behind last? How many Russian puppets do the guerrillas have to kill before the rest head off to Russia?
Is Kharkov still Ukranian?
You mean the ethnic Russian city on the Russian border that the Russian Army decided to shell?
It appears the Russians have captured it.
How many troops do you think they're going to have to leave behind to keep control?
If they don't leave enough, what do you think happens to the supplies of the rest when they try to move on?
rcocean said...
They can't win and all this moronic "Rah, Rah, Ukraine" just encourages their leaders to keep the war going, when they can't win.
Bullshit.
In fact, so long as the West supports them and send them supplies, they can't lose
What we have seen so far is that Russia sucks at logistics, sucks at maintenance, has serious corruption problems, and has a Third World "no initiative" Army.
Ukrainian insurgents can carry and use Stingers and Javelins to destroy Russian air and land, including tank, assets. Ukraine's Eastern European, former slaves of the USSR, neighbors are going to be happy to keep on supplying those insurgents, even if Russia takes over some cities.
WTF? Stop being so pro-Putin.
Stop being so desperate for Russia to win. It's a look that goes quite poorly with "pro-American"
Name, rank, and serial number.......and don't take your cell phone into battle.
Anything from a warzone can be psyops. Just sayin'...
Last I checked, that "40 mile long column of Russian armored vehicles" is still 20 miles from Kiev.
"I don't need a ride. I need A-10s."
...well that's what he SHOULD have said.
This is my first comment since exile to the right-wind squatters cafe, and I don’t plan to make a habit of it. But what you geezers need to understand is that every 15-year-old girl in Ukraine has a smart phone and can edit video like George Lucas. Of course there is propaganda out there, but there is a ton of video from every day young Ukrainians. This war is an intensely documented affair.
This is my first comment since self-imposed exile to the right wing squatters cafe. I will tell you geezers on sound authority that every 15-year-old girl in Ukraine has a smart phone and can edit video clips like George Lucas - it’s their main pastime. Sure, there is propaganda out there, but there is a ton of first-hand video documentation my young Ukrainians.
I want to mention the Israelis setting up a barbeque grill beside the prison where Palestinians were engaged in a hunger strike.
I also want to mention Trump winning the Second Korean war by trading humorous insults with Kim Jong Un.
I have now mentioned both things. Winning.
Scott M said...
Me: Last I checked, that "40 mile long column of Russian armored vehicles" is still 20 miles from Kiev.
"I don't need a ride. I need A-10s."
...well that's what he SHOULD have said.
Look back to the Vietnam War.
Russia (the UUSR) supplied the North Vietnamese, but did not fight us directly.
It's one thing for us to send Ukraine Javelins and Stingers, it's an entirely different thing to send our attack planes in to directly attack Russian troops.
Now, where things could come to a head is if the Russians attack Poland, or into Poland, in an attempt to stop supplies going in to Ukraine.
Because there it would be entirely appropriate for US forces to kill Russian forces.
To continue the Vietnam analogy: no one sane wants to be under Putin, whereas anyone sane didn't want to be under the Communists in Vietnam
So Russia will never be able to conquer and hold Vietnam, so long as the US and some European countries are willing to back the opposition.
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा