"In school, they’ve learned more about the United States’ shortcomings than about her triumphs and the nation’s indispensability as a global force for good. The crisis caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exposed that blind spot.... The Cold War generation better understands the stakes.... It’s prudent to be cautious about drawing World War II analogies, but it’s proper to recount the carnage that followed America’s turning inward during the 1930s...."
From "Why Biden should deliver a European history lesson during the State of the Union" by James Hohmann (WaPo).
How old is Hohmann? I wondered. It wasn't easy to Google, but I think he graduated from college in 2009, which might make him about 35. It's safe to say he's a millennial.
I went looking for his age when I read "The Cold War generation better understands the stakes." Usually, we're called Baby Boomers, and our understanding of "the stakes" was powerfully shaped by Vietnam, and that took place under the compulsion of the military draft.
You'd better take that into account when you say we're different from these kids today who grew up under "the national humiliations in Iraq and Afghanistan."
पोस्ट्स
१०६ टिप्पण्या:
Those of us who have been suckered into wars before see this differently.
Every useful or pleasing claim about the war, no matter how unverified or subsequently debunked, rapidly spreads, while dissenters are vilified as traitors or Kremlin agents.
There is no propaganda as potent or powerful as war propaganda. It seems that one must have lived through it at least once, as an engaged adult, to understand how it functions, how it manipulates and distorts, and how one can resist being consumed by it.
As I examined in the first part of that video discussion, war propaganda stimulates the most powerful aspects of our psyche, our subconscious, our instinctive drives. It causes us, by design, to abandon reason. It provokes a surge in tribalism, jingoism, moral righteousness and emotionalism: all powerful drives embedded through millennia of evolution. The more unity that emerges in support of an overarching moral narrative, the more difficult it becomes for anyone to critically evaluate it. The more closed the propaganda system is — either because any dissent from it is excluded by brute censorship or so effectively demonized through accusations of treason and disloyalty — the more difficult it is for anyone, all of us, even to recognize one is in the middle of it. - Glenn Greenwald
But yeah, the establishment is calling out for us to forget their fuckups, no matter how fresh thy are in our minds.
I'm Gen X and I grew up during the Cold War, too.
It's funny that Putin is taking the same line against Russian anti-war protesters as Trudeau did against the Canadian truckers, that they were foreign agitators and fascists.
I see your blog has a theme today: "Ben Rhodes was right about journalists."
The Boomers did a great job of tearing down stale, corrupt, and unjust cultural institutions.
However, the replaced said institutions with nothing more than decadence, failed utopianism, knee-jerk negativity, and selfishness.
The Boomers can thank themselves for the poor state of the world and failed fantasies they dumped on later generations. But they'll all die off before they understand the consequences of their actions.
From the mid 70s thru to early 80s there was a constant stream of Lessons Of Vietnam books, symposiums, lectures. There was an honest effort to grapple with the calamity we created.
There has been no such self-examination about Iraq and Afghanistan. We are poorer for the lack of such.
I was taught to "duck and cover" during the Cuban Missile Crisis at an elementary school 5 miles from an airbase full of B52 bombers, a top 10 target in the event of nuclear war. I grew up in the cold war. Vietnam taught different lessons. They're not mutually exclusive, just give each other nuance.
This appears to have things in common with the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviet Union, concerned about US intermediate ranged missiles that could reach the USSR Turkey, replied with missiles in Cuba. The Soviets imagined there was some equity in this. They wanted a buffer zone to protect their territory similar to what the US had with its oceans and the Caribbean. And, according to Soviet history, Khrushchev thought he could safely confront JFK after sizing him up as weak at the recent summit.
Now Putin, in part, Putin wants a buffer against NATO which after the end of the Cold War only exists to confront Russia. And we haven't had a president more obviously weak and in effective than Biden in decades. Putin may be playing other games and he's probably delusional, but there is some logic in the madness.
We were also taught and studied World History and American History. Not the Howard Zinn version. So we were not taught that the US is a pile of racist dung, and have to start our world view from that. We learned about the world from our parents, history books, documentary films on WW II, and other means. I get the feeling that today, the generation that bemoans someone calling them 'he' instead of 'they' or 'zir' has a long way to go to get their head around European history.
I mean...where do you start when someone thinks a bad day is when their local Starbucks is out of coconut milk?
I'm with MayBee, strongly. and literally.
If you're charitable, he might have just been combining everybody older than him into one big lump.
To riff off of Ann's point about Vietnam and MayBee's comment though, I think Gen-X has a stronger claim to the title of 'Cold War' generation. The Berlin Wall, Cuban Missile Crisis, and Korea were fought more by the GIs and Silents then the Boomers who were largely too young. The Gen-X experience of the conflict was not shaped by the hot but peripheral conflict in Vietnam when direct antagonism to the USSR was tamped down, for obvious reasons, but staring the Soviets down straight across the Fulda Gap. We hit draft age right as Carter got the anti-Russian religion and the Regan buildup started. We didn't have 'duck and cover' drills but the nuclear possibilities were front and center all the time. Remember the 'Doomsday Clock'?
Biden deliver a history lesson? Are you joking? Biden may not know where he is at any given moment. Asking him to talk about century-old history that no LIV cares about is begging for national humiliation, at least more than falsely calling this sick old pervert "President."
If Russia is being driven out of Ukraine next week (real unlikely) all Biden has to do is cheer them on. Conversely, if the hasbara isn't enough to get the Russian army to pull all of its troops, then the American empire will be advised to stay as far away from Ukraine as possible. At that point, total disgrace of the entire post-war UN-backed system will be just around the corner.
Is there irony in the fact WaPo drops the paywall for a story about nationalism and the importance of borders?
"But they'll all die off before they understand the consequences of their actions."
You guys are gonna live in a hell of your own making, don't worry.
It is not compelling for US lefties to discuss the sovereignty of other nations when they reject sovereignty, nationalism, borders and the 2nd Amendment in their own country.
A cynic might note that the left has taken every opportunity to shape education to trash the United States - and now they are ioset it might impede their policies.
It's a sign of hope that a millennial actually understands the fact that Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan was a disaster.
MayBee said...
I'm Gen X and I grew up during the Cold War, too.
me too. the eighties were the Cold War... Most of the REALLY close calls took place in 1983 (Reforger's Able Archer 83 and the 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm incident).
(i'm Sure you old fogies think the Cuban Missile crisis was close... But No Cigar; 1983 wins)
I was born during WWII, so I'm not a member of the "Boomer" generation, but I am definitely a member of the Cold War generation. I not only grew up during the Cold War from start to finish, so did my children. I did "fight" in the Cold War for 26 years, but also fought in Vietnam and the Gulf War during the Cold War. I don't know what this guy's point is (I don't read the WAPO,) but his basic understanding of generations seems suspect.
As for his suggestion that Biden should give a "European history lesson," all I have to say is "are you shitting me?"
Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...
It's a sign of hope that a millennial actually understands the fact that Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan was a disaster.
I was surprised to read 'humiliations in Iraq and Afghanistan' until I realized with respect to Afghanistan they are probably referring to Operation Enduring Freedom under George Bush...
Partial credit for their self-admitted ignorance of 'ancient' history...
"As for his suggestion that Biden should give a "European history lesson," all I have to say is "are you shitting me?""
Like getting financial advice from Inga.
This is more analogous of Finland 39-40. I'm pretty sure the our constitution isn't being taught in schools forget about European history.
To quote the entire sentence about the "cold war generation": "The Cold War generation better understands the stakes, but they’re becoming a smaller share of the electorate each year."
That made me assume he was talking about Baby Boomers: He's visualizing us dying: We're at the end of the conveyer belt of life, dropping off into oblivion.
If you Gen Xers want to be what he's talking about, please know that he's talking about the people who are slated to die soon.
Also, if you google the phrase "cold war generation," which I did before publishing this post, all I see is an equation with Baby Boomers, not Gen X.
Have you seen that new show Ukraine Invasion? Awesome! Check it out.
Some Baby Boomer said...That made me assume he was talking about Baby Boomers:
Once Again, a Baby Boomer lets us know; that in Their mind... It's All About THEM
Soon the Baby Boomers will be dead and gone, and the world will have to get on without them..
So Sad
That’s really funny to me that the writer of this article thinks the aversion to war comes from feeling the “humiliation” of losing those wars. Like that’s the only reason why young Americans wouldn’t want to go to war.
Vietnam was a massive influence on early Boomers.
If you're a late Boomer and grew up with Ford, Carter, and Reagan what happened in the later Seventies and early Eighties marked you more.
But I wonder about those early Boomers -- hippies, radicals, and college protestors were only a part of that generation. Most seventysomethings are people who didn't go down that path.
Whenever the "my generation got shit on" topic comes up, I always think of the WWI/Spanish flu-Great Depression-WWII generation....for perspective.
"Soon the Baby Boomers will be dead and gone, "
For certain values of 'soon.' The FDR Democrats were a long time leaving the stage, it seemed to me, just saying, and the senescent POTUS isn't even a Baby Boomer, he was born during the second world war, and has lived long enough to blunder into the third one, which hopefully ends before it gets nasty. It was still the '40s when he flunked the third grade.
This war is playing out on Bloomberg rather than CNN, BTW.
"In school, they’ve learned more about the United States’ shortcomings than about her triumphs and the nation’s indispensability as a global force for good.
Bullshit. The problem is that generations have been brainwashed into believing nothing but America's "triumphs" and how we're supposed to be "a global force for good" even at the cost of our own good.
I supported Iraq and Afghanistan and still think they were the right decision. But we're not obligated to get involved in every single fight around the world, protecting every pissant savage against every tinpot dictator. "Global force for good" has become an excuse to enable the globalist class to push grey-goo progressive beliefs around the world while at the same time looting the working class and third-world countries.
Christopher B said...We didn't have 'duck and cover' drills but the nuclear possibilities were front and center all the time.
I was in South Florida in the late 70's and we did air raid drills in school.
Was talking about the Ukraine war with my 10 and 12 year old grandsons last night. I explained how the Russians were fighting because they were forced to by Putin purely for Putin's benefit whereas the Ukrainians were fighting for their land, homes, friends and families.
The 10 yo piped up and asked if I thought the insurgency would last 20-years like Afghanistan. I told him my guess that Putin couldn't survive a year of protracted insurgency before his inner circle terminated his contract with extreme prejudice. Since Putin knows this, he has started to threaten a nuclear response.
We then discussed the Cuban Missile Crisis and how that was negotiated to semi-secretly remove US missiles from Turkey.
I explained that Putin may be looking for a broad agreement on expansion limits of NATO. However it's not clear the West will ever negotiate with Putin on anything and it was likely that our Deep State operatives are already trying to make deals with other Russian leaders.
Hohmann is basically saying that he wants Biden to prepare the country for the use of US troops to once again save Europe from itself. He's overlooking the fact that our Iraq and Afghanistan adventures were also built on heavy doses of official deception. That distrust will not wash away easily.
"They wanted a buffer zone"
They still do. Are we saying that is not a legitimate goal for a great power? But perhaps Putin now wants more, having upped the ante.
"we're not obligated to get involved in every single fight around the world"
Indeed. Ukraine is a vital interest to Russia, not to us. We should act accordingly.
Look up a John Mearsheimer lecture on Ukraine on YouTube. Realism has its virtues.
Well...given that the Iron Curtain was established in 1945, I don't see how Gen X was part of the Cold War generation. Even though the curtain remained in place until the fall of the Berlin Wall, the idea of the 'Cold War' was so integrated into everyday life that it was not even noticed. Like a stain on the rug that you do nothing about. It just blends in with the surroundings after awhile.
We baby boomers used to have bomb drills in grade school, going under our desks or out into the school hallways sitting down with our heads between our knees and our hands clasped back over our necks. In this way we would survive a nuclear blast.
I don't believe Gen Xers had any nuclear bomb drills in their cold war years.
I explained how the Russians were fighting because they were forced to by Putin purely for Putin's benefit
I agree with a lot of your post, but I don't think the Russians are being forced to fight. Russians are nationalists. The soldiers in the Russian army probably think their actions are justified.
When I hear "Cold War Generation", I just assume he is talking about the generation that fought it. This would include the people born between about 1880 and 1974, leaders and soldiers. It wouldn't include me born in 1966 because I was neither a leader nor a soldier at any point.
It also wouldn't include Althouse or around 80% of the Baby Boomer generation as a guess.
I don't believe Gen Xers had any nuclear bomb drills in their cold war years.
I'm at the tail end of the Baby Boomers, born in 63, and I never had to do duck and cover drills, so I'm sure Gen Xers didn't have to.
"the nation’s indispensability as a global force for good"
The belief in indispensability is a form of hubris, particularly if followed by the non sequitur that since we are indispensable as a force for good, our intervention will produce good.
What is "good" for Ukraine? Complete westernization would be good, sure, but 1. the Russian half of the country doesn't want it, and 2. the great power next door won't accept it. So good is an acceptably stable second-best: neutral Ukraine with minority rights guaranteed. Whether that is still possible after the invasion is an open question. It seems Vlad has determined the West will never give him what he wants in Ukraine, and the only way to achieve his goal is direct control to dictate terms.
The very fact that he was willing to sacrifice so much to invade should tell us something. So far it hasn't. Not good for Ukraine.
There are a lot of neo-cons going about this morning trying to deny that anyone warned about the problems of expanding NATO to the borders of Russia in the last 25 years. We were warned by members of the Cold War generation and others that expanding NATO was a blunder and an unnecessary provocation- they have proven correct by the events since 2008 in Europe.
These dumb fucks in charge of the West today are in the early stages of a process of blundering into an armed exchange between Russia and NATO.
From "Why Biden should deliver a European history lesson during the State of the Union" by James Hohmann (WaPo).
Why does it have to come from Biden? Can't these little pinheads do a bit of reading on their own? Or is it a case of modern day Führerprinzip and the "Punch A Nazi" crowd need to hear about such things from "Glorious Leader" to believe them?
Also, Iraq and Afghanistan weren't half as humiliating as Vietnam.
Seemingly unknown to the western press, Belarus had a "referendum" yesterday to amend their constitution, to allow for nuclear weapons. Not surprising it passed.
Putin puppet Lukashenka is actively participating in the war on Ukraine. He runs the country like a Soviet hardliner, dissent is illegal.
Keep an eye on Belarus.
Ron Winkleheimer said...
I'm at the tail end of the Baby Boomers, born in 63, and I never had to do duck and cover drills, so I'm sure Gen Xers didn't have to.
I second that. I was born the same year and also grew up right next door to a major US Army base that was definitely on somebody's target list. I never did duck and cover or any kind of air raid drills growing up.
the Soviet tool in the Cold War, just like John Kerry or Leon Panetta, would not be lecturing anyone,
What is scarier for Xi? If the US somehow manages to depose Putin and brings Russia into the fold? Or US sanctions? This is WWIII, the way wars are fought now. All Xi has done so far in support of the West is to deny Putin dollar denominated trade deals, but the trend in dollar denominated deals between the two has been dropping steadily over the years, and had already dropped to 20%.
Brazil wants nothing to do with the sanctions, neither does India. You learn this stuff watching Bloomberg. We are sort of back to Russia being fucked by its lack of warm water ports. Maybe they can ship their commodities east via rail to get them onto the high seas that way, but that seems a heavy lift. Is the Bosphorus going to be closed to their freight shipped via Crimea? IDK, but it's interesting to watch.
I have to say that this is the most concerned I have been about nuclear war since stockpiling food and water during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The shoe is on the other foot now, then we almost brought on WWIII because the Soviets were the ones putting military forces 90 miles from Miami.
Same here, MayBee.
Gen X.
Yesterday, Saudi Arabia announces "OPEC+1" to include Russia.
Today, UAE foreign minister in Moscow for meetings.
Somewhere In the late 50’s or early 60’s my dad built a bomb shelter in the basement of our little cape house in MA. Took up nearly half the floor space. He dismantled it when the house went up for sale in 1965.
I would sooner think it’s the concept and focus- not just the duck and cover.
We had a fallout shelter at school- do they still have those?
I always love how the second people stop wanting to get involved in useless wars or foreign conflicts that have nothing to do with us, the power elite starts shouting "isolationism!" its "Hitler all over again!!".
I'm all in favor of the USA "being a force for good" in the world. But maybe we can do that by giving the world foriegn aid instead of cluster Bombs.
"There are a lot of neocons going about this morning trying to deny that anyone warned about the problems of expanding NATO to the borders of Russia "
Putin gave a speech in December that a deal to keep NATO out was the "only way" to avoid a "full scale invasion," which Biden dismissed as bluster. He was too busy tying Putin to J6 and Trump. Of course this invasion will have backfired spectacularly on Putin, possibly bringing Sweden and Norway into NATO, which has to have him shitting pickles.
Hopefully we can pull this off without triggering the legendary Russian "Doomsday Machine." But maybe it will end up like when George Washington blundered into the French and Indian War and left the British Empire, for which he fought at the time, in control of the lion's share of North America.
they blockade the sea of azov, so oil coming through ports on the Black Sea, are also out luck, where are the Turks in this,
I was too young for Vietnam, but I tell you my parents and older siblings felt betrayed over the Vietnam war and my Aunt felt bitter about it for the rest of her life. Lots of people bought LBJ's lies: "Just trust us, we need to fight in Vietnam and win" and "We have to fight them over there or we'll be fighting over here" or "Fall in line and support your commander in chief, your country calls".
Then it turned out that was all crap. They never wanted to win. They never knew how they could win. The whole war was a lie. And same was true of the Iraq war. There were no WMD's. Sadaam had nothing to do with 911. We went there to nation build not because of America's security.
Chimpy McBush just had a messanic belief of the USA running around the world forcing "Democracy" on everyone at the point of a gun.
narciso said...
they blockade the sea of azov, so oil coming through ports on the Black Sea, are also out luck, where are the Turks in this,
They closed the strait to Russian warships two days ago. I can't see any country trying to block Russian oil and gas shipments, at least not right now.
As a kid, the Vietnam war made for great tv on the evening news. I always looked forward to seeing Geraldo Rivera. He was always "in the shit" as they say.
Temujin,
"I don't see how Gen X was part of the Cold War generation."
Well, when I was ten I was pretty sure it could all go up in a bright flash any time. Given that I was ten in 1983 (see gilbar at 7:23), it wasn't just my overactive imagination. I can still hear Reagan's joke the next year, "I am pleased to announce that today I have signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes." I chuckle, recalling it. At the time I wasn't amused in the least.
"We baby boomers used to have bomb drills in grade school"
You've got me there.
"In this way we would survive a nuclear blast."
As I'm sure you know, it comes down to rough rings around Ground Zero. Within the first or outside the second, you don't much need to bother. In between them, you may as well hunker down the best you can.
“I don't believe Gen Xers had any nuclear bomb drills in their cold war years”
Right, because by then everyone assumed it wouldn’t do any good. Which is more frightening?
We grew up watching Red Dawn and The Day After. And then in college we got to watch the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. Definitely Cold War influenced, but in different ways. We went from “we are all going to die” to “holy crap, we won”.
"I can't see any country trying to block Russian oil and gas shipments, at least not right now."
Except nobody wants to risk their ships by loading up with Russian oil. It's like the Canadian banks under Trudeau's 'emergency,' when the rules go out the window, people become extremely conservative.
Yeah...no one, not even us kids thought kneeling below our desks would help protect us from a nuclear bomb. Yet we did it.
Kinda like wearing masks to keep out a virus, or staying six feet apart, huh? The same people set the action standard.
I don't quite agree with Scott Adams that analogy is a substitute for thought, but there are lots of questionable analogies.
Iraq a successful Vietnam, proving that the neo-cons are right, nation-building is possible even in unpromising circumstances? Well, at a huge cost, and with an ambiguous outcome. Among other things, Iraq and Iran used to counter-weigh each other; Bush Jr. made Iran much stronger. No President has seriously considered something like Iraq again, so it must not be regarded all that favorably.
Afghanistan: Vietnam all over again? Up to a point. A naive under-estimation of how much would be required to "nation-build," and an over-estimation of the willingness of Americans to sacrifice for a remote country, with so little at stake.
Putin: Another Hitler? No real choice but to stop him now? Count me among those who didn't think he would invade Ukraine (on a bigger scale than he has been doing since 2014). I still don't think he'll go for Latvia. Some reports suggest he is over-extended as it is, and I hope he does what he did in Georgia: threaten the capital so as to get when he wants, then retreat to the territory that he actually considers to be legitimately Russian: in this case, perhaps the part of so-called Ukraine that is east of the Dnieper. This is one "surprise" invasion, very different from Hitler in 1939.
Howard said...
Was talking about the Ukraine war with my 10 and 12 year old grandsons last night. I explained how the Russians were fighting because they were forced to by Putin purely for Putin's benefit whereas the Ukrainians were fighting for their land, homes, friends and families.
Was talking about the Canadaian protest with my 5 and 8 year old daughters last night. I explained how the Ottawa Police were fighting because they were forced to by Trudeau purely for Trudeaus's benefit whereas the Canadians were protesting for their land, homes, bank accounts, friends and families.
For Americans, losing in Iraq and Afghanistan was an unfavorable geopolitical outcome. That's it. We do not live in fear of foreign occupation and oppression, so we don't care. No one is going to enslave us. It's the Russians who are driven by decades of humiliation and the collective trauma of communism. They're the danger.
I would have thought that the first Gulf War in 1990-1 would have garnered a mention?
I graduated high school in 1992 and at the time had the belief that a focused US military would defeat Soviet armed forces be they Iraqis or actual Soviets given the contemporaneous decline of the USSR.
Russian troops are NOT fighting purely for Putin. Russia has a desire to see a demilitarized, friendly Ukraine on its border. Also, 30% of Ukrainians are Russian native speakers. They dominate in Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine.
This war isn't being fought just because of Putin's personal desires.
Its funny how the MSM can make the libtards dance any tune they play. One day its "the Cold war called, Mitt, it want's its foreign policy back. The next day: "Putin is Hiter".
Russian troops are NOT fighting purely for Putin. Russia has a desire to see a demilitarized, friendly Ukraine on its border. Also, 30% of Ukrainians are Russian native speakers. They dominate in Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine.
This war isn't being fought just because of Putin's personal desires.
Its funny how the MSM can make the libtards dance any tune they play. One day its "the Cold war called, Mitt, it want's its foreign policy back. The next day: "Putin is Hiter".
I think Gen-X has a stronger claim to the title of 'Cold War' generation. The Berlin Wall, Cuban Missile Crisis, and Korea were fought more by the GIs and Silents then the Boomers who were largely too young.
The Baby Boomers were largely known for opting out of the Cold War.
It was known as the Peace Movement and many advocated for Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament.
All employees of the U.S. Embassy have been evacuated from Belarus.
QuidProJoe "deliver a history lesson." Bwahahaha!
https://irconsilium.com/ukraine-is-not-enough-just-the-beginning-of-russias-assault-on-the-world/
Among other things, Iraq and Iran used to counter-weigh each other; Bush Jr. made Iran much stronger.
I disagree. Iraq was a counter-weight to Iran back in the 80s, but that ended after the Gulf War, when the Iraqi Army was destroyed and never fully reconstituted. After a decade of sanctions and bombing by the US, there's no way Iraq would have been able to withstand any Iranian offensive. If anything, Iran was weakened, since they were forced to spend billions backing Iraqi militias while their own people faced high unemployment at home.
You got that wrong, Achilles. Cops beat demonstrators because they are sadistic weaklings who hate people with balls. The Canadian truckers strike was an action of a trace minority over an issue of little consequences. Your dedication to Vlad is noted.
After the Democrats stopped teaching children history, it seems they want senile old Joe to do some.
I am a Boomer born at the end of the Baby Boom post-World War 2. I was born on the day the East Germans started the construction of the Berlin Wall in 1961. Thus, I grew up and experienced the Cold War in its fullest from Day 1 of the Wall. I don’t recall ever experiencing the “Duck and Cover” drills at school but I do recall from my youth the various buildings in my city with the Civil Defense signs posted outside of them designating those buildings as Fallout Shelters. I never thought I would see the day that the Wall would fall, let alone how quickly the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries’ Communist governments would fall. I briefly had hopes that Boris Yeltsin would create a stable and non-threatening Russia but when Putin came on the scene, I suspected an ex-KGB Agent leading Russia wouldn’t be interested in democracy and would want to put the old Russian Empire / Soviet Union back together again. I thought this 20 years ago just by analyzing the news stories about Putin.
I find it hard to believe that the people in the Biden admin (and before that Obama admin since almost all are now back for a second go around), many Gen Xers and Millennials couldn’t figure out that Russia would actually invade Ukraine since they don’t know the actual European / Russian history (other than maybe they admired what the Russian Revolution accomplished, whitewashed of course of the genocide and inmates in gulags that occurred until the fall of the Wall) As for Biden giving a history lesson, when he speaks off the cuff, he gets the actual facts wrong or twists them up. Since his SOTU speech is mostly written by his staff, any historical events mentioned will be through the lens of CRT and thus leave out crucial details of what really happened in order to advance their agenda.
rcocean said...
I'm all in favor of the USA "being a force for good" in the world. But maybe we can do that by giving the world foriegn aid instead of cluster Bombs.
The biggest problem with most countries is the people in charge.
Lack of food is because of the people in charge.
Eliminate those terrible people and people can make their own food rather than beg the shitheads for the food you shipped.
In my previous post I had “through the lens of CRT”. I forgot to add something - it should have said “through the lens of CRT and European Imperialism”.
My apologies - Scotty.
Nobody under 40 has the wisdom or intelligence to comment on their elders' experiences.
"Yeah...no one, not even us kids thought kneeling below our desks would help protect us from a nuclear bomb. Yet we did it."
For a while there, I had no idea what the "air raid drill" was for. We had "fire drills," and I knew what fire was, but "air raid" meant nothing. And, now that I think about it, "drill" made no sense either. It was just a thing we did.
When the Cuban Missile Crisis happened, the school sent me home with a memo to my parents, telling them to teach me the route to walk home from school. Just in case the whole system collapsed and we were wandering in the wreckage, schoolless and busless, we could walk toward home and maybe get there. I didn't really understand all that, but I know in retrospect, that's what the the memo meant. My parents read the memo and did absolutely nothing.
I was concerned that my parents were given a task and were not doing it, but I understand their choice now: 1. It would scare the kids to explain how to walk home and therefore definitely and directly hurt, 2. There was only a small possibility that the situation would devolve into exactly the conditions in which knowing the route home would save us, and 3. The school's exercise of authority over my parents did not win their respect and obedience, 4. Maybe I would learn something from seeing them decline to hop to it when in receipt of orders from the government.
If a nuclear bomb goes off, the safest place is a refrigerator.
People seem to forget there are good reasons to go to war. And it's not just being attacked.
The biggest thing I've seen of the past 70-80 years is that the cultural revolution against "imperialism" seems to think that if a country has dangerous leaders and dangerous ideology, you can just fight them back OR demolish their militaries and it'll all work out. Which I haven't seen actually work out...ever. Just makes the losing country's population suffer more.
By comparison, as much as this also has downsides, it appears to me that the empire countries often experience the greatest stability and advancement for their populations over decades/centuries - albeit historically with a class issue between the dominant countries class and the local countries under-class.
As an older millenial, I never understood why we would invest hundreds of billions or trillions in war only to hand the land and treasure back over to a populace who has not yet evidenced they can be relied upon to provide stability and good governmental and human rights. Nor that it's in our interests to invest in nation-building and then walk away. If you are going to go into a country and basically take it over, keep the freaking country. Or at least make that your plan. The only time you should go into a country, take them over militarily, and walk away is if they attacked you/represented a mortal threat to your country in the first place. And then only if you don't want the land/people/resources.
Remember this beauty? Duck and Cover
I don't. But I do remember other posters and lessons from our local and school Civil Defense teams. I doubt something this stark and real could be shown to kids today. Talk about triggering.
@Prof Althouse, thanks for the context. It does appear that he was using it as a synonym for Boomers. I'll still maintain he was using it at least a bit incorrectly though fully recognize people's opinions will differ. The conflict lasted so long that multiple generations experienced different phases at different times in their lives, from containment to the hot proxy conflicts and then to a period where the US was more directly assertive.
There's a Puerto Rican who writes a substack basically about COVID issues (he was kicked off of Twitter many moons ago). But he also ventures into other topics, and he has an interesting take on US foreign policies:
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/si-vis-pacem-para-bellum?utm_source=url
The basic theme is that the USA is lousy at foreign policy and should do as little of it as possible. There's much to debate here, but his thoughts are interesting.
One of my takes on the Russia-Ukraine conflict is that the Europeans have beaten hard on each other for centuries. The 20th century was the worst. Thus Europe as a whole (and many other peoples with histories of invasion, conquest, and so forth) has very different security perspectives from those of a large, young, underpopulated country, buffered and cocooned by two enormous oceans, and possessing economic and industrial might unparalleled in human history.
To be an American is to grow up believing all things are possible. WWII put an enormous exclamation point on that sentiment and drove it perhaps beyond reason. The Baby Boomers became jaded after Vietnam, 9/11, Iraq, and Afghanistan, but I think the traditional sentiment lives on in the younger generations. It is not a sentiment most of the rest of the world shares.
The purpose of the under-the-desk drills, as I understand it, was mainly an attempt to prevent flying glass from shattered windows from cutting the children to shreds. For example, in Hiroshima the direct blast was lethal out to about one mile, but the damage and injuries from the resulting shock waves were felt to some degree out to at least 10 or 12 miles depending on terrain and buildings in the way of the shock wave. Surviving the initial blast because you were outside the bomb's fireball may not mean much if you're standing by a window five miles away when the shock wave arrives. Also, burns from the fireball's intense heat/light are greatly reduced by anything that helps block the direct heat and light from the blast, which would include desks to some degree. Most of the severe burns experienced in the WWII Japan bomb explosions were due to exposed skin. Even simple clothing offered some protection from flash burns.
Duck and cover drills were not completely without merit.
"I had no idea what the "air raid drill" was for. We had "fire drills," and I knew what fire was, but "air raid" meant nothing"
I entered school in 1965. We had the occasional duck and cover for a couple years, but I think they called it civil defense or some such,like it could be useful in a tornado. The Civil Defense insignia remained stencilled on certain areas of the building for as long as I was at the school.
"I was too young for Vietnam, but I tell you my parents and older siblings felt betrayed over the Vietnam war and my Aunt felt bitter about it for the rest of her life."
Your Aunt is not the only bitter one in your family. Judging from your posts, probably not even the most bitter.
Gen X had the honor of turning the lights out on the Cold War as we came of age at the denoument. I'm still waiting for my peace dividend check.
(i swore i was going to let this rest; but i can't.. like a moth to the flame)
The purpose of hiding under a desk is for flying glass.
If you're on ground zero, you're not worried about flying glass. If you're a few miles away..)
about 4nd grade ('72) They stopped referring to them as disaster drills and started calling them tornado drills.
I don't remember them ever being called anything else besides "disaster" or "tornado"
though, we all "knew" what they were for... And we All "knew" that they were 'stupid', because (OBVIOUSLY!) Hoffman Estates was going to be GROUND ZERO. In reality, we were 35 miles from Chicago.
Of course, by 1980, the Russians had about 25,000 H bombs, and things were different.
Fun Questions for baby boombers (the COLD WAR GENERATION)
How many H-bombs did Russia have in 1963? How many ICBMs?
How many H-bombs did Russia have in 1983? How many ICBMs?
never mind... YOU were the Cold War Generation... 'cause, it's All About YOU
John Mearsheimer lecture on Ukraine
========
is he of fame from Mearsheimer - Walt - Isreal?
how does he explain Iran etc.? from Realisme perspective?
Since the old air raid warnings have come up, along with Covid restrictions: the U.S. government now says: in case of nuclear attack, get inside a building (preferably brick or concrete) and once inside, practise masking and social distancing as much as possible. Not a joke. Here.
Wait just a minute here...
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/when-obama-left-ukraine-defenseless/
Smell a set up? I do!
Filthy Communist traitor James Hohmann (WaPo), lecturing the younger generation on patriotism. Isn't that special!
In the last 10 years the Far Right has joined the Far Left in the dopey conviction that America is Evil with a capital E.
“Maybe I would learn something from seeing them decline to hop to it when in receipt of orders from the government.”
When the Canadian truckers had their protest people thought it was about the vaccine mandate. “How stupid, just over a vaccine.”
It wasn’t that at all- it was the straw- that pricky proverbial stem of grain- and enough is enough.
O/T not really though: an ad for Bernie was on the radio this morning- he wants to be available (idk if in person) at town meetings this year to “listen to the people” on how the Federal Government can better assist communities.
No clue, these people.
We had two types of drill. 1950s. One was the flash kind (the teacher would shout "flash") and you get under your desk in seconds with hands over eyes and neck. The other was if there was supposedly a longer warning time, and we all assembled and marched down into the basement where we sat in rows. No one took the flash drills seriously. But I loved the longer ones because it gave me time to sidle up to and sit next to "Sandy" on whom I had a crush. Only time I could get her to pay any attention. It only occasionally worked. Oh well, it was only fourth grade. I learned life's frustrations early. So I guess that does make me a Gen Cold Warrior. As to World War II analogies, they are as useless as Hitler analogies. This current situation bears NO resemblance at all. Sorry, Hohmann, but I do not need a history lesson from Joe Biden, even though I am sure he was there with Chamberlain and latter with Churchill and probably waddled ashore at Omaha Beach for all I know and for all he remembers. But spare me.
"From the mid 70s thru to early 80s there was a constant stream of Lessons Of Vietnam books, symposiums, lectures. There was an honest effort to grapple with the calamity we created.
"There has been no such self-examination about Iraq and Afghanistan. We are poorer for the lack of such."
We completely ignored the "Lessons of Vietnam" that we were told would guide us in the future. They were aware the younger folk had little or no knowledge of the Vietnam clusterfuck and never heard of the lessons supposedly gained therefrom. And, as always everywhere, the warmakers lied and lied and lied.
In short, whatever "Lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan" that will be brooded over after the inevitable books, symposia, and lectures are brought forth in the fullness of time will also be forgotten or ignored.
So it continues, from generation to generation, epoch to epoch, millennium to millenium, as empires and less-than-empires rise and fall.
"Kinda like wearing masks to keep out a virus, or staying six feet apart, huh? The same people set the action standard."
And yet, these things did reduce the rate of infection in those places where it was followed, such as NYC, however much you want to deny it.
"I agree with a lot of your post, but I don't think the Russians are being forced to fight. Russians are nationalists. The soldiers in the Russian army probably think their actions are justified."
Just as many American troops probably thought we were justified in invading Afghanistan and Iraq.
Robert Cook said...
Just as many American troops probably thought we were justified in invading Afghanistan and Iraq.
It was really cool watching girls go to school in those countries.
For a little while anyways.
I know you don't really give a shit about the kids in Afghanistan or Iraq though.
You seem to think they deserve to grow up being raped and sold as property.
Wasn't the reason to hide underneath your desk to reduce exposure to flash burns and protect from falling debris?
It was better than nothing.
And yet, these things did reduce the rate of infection in those places where it was followed, such as NYC, however much you want to deny it.
Nope but nobody can shake your faith in your delusions. It's been proven many times.
Robert Cook confusingly said...
And yet, these things did reduce the rate of infection in those places where it was followed, such as NYC, however much you want to deny it.
That's WHY rate of infection in New York is 21st out of 50 states, unlike places without those things like Georgia (34th), or Texas (35th)
But, I know (i KNOW!) those things are JUST LIKE SOCIALISM, it hasn't worked; because it hasn't been FULLY APPLIED.. Right, Robert? i mean, RIGHT?
Gilbar,
I’m not talking about NY state, but NYC.
Achilles, you seem to think we really invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to help their lives. OMG! That wasn’t our purpose and that wasn’t its outcome.
A lesson in 40 years of US "good works" (sic[k]).
Not so long ago, the vast majority of Boomers married young, had children, and did not participate in the revolutions so fondly imagined today. They were too busy doing the day to day work of raising kids and paying bills. College was out of reach for most.
Most women who would have been my late mother's age encouraged us to be feminists then regretted their encouragement as the world didn't stop "freeing" us from children, husbands, maturation, romance, commitment, faith, and choices, unless the choice was the sacrament of abortion. I'm speaking about women here, but men and fathers abandoned their roles as parents with even less concern -- or justification.
But now, as then, the real danger lies in the schools. Propaganda posing as educating starts every cry to every rampart. This relatively young man has been miseducated. No surprise there.
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