"... and the real victims of the Nazis were not the Jews, but rather this group. Russian Christians are targets of a conspiracy by a global elite, who, using the vocabulary of liberal democracy and human rights, attack the Christian faith and the Russian nation. Putin’s propaganda is not aimed at an obviously skeptical west, but rather appeals domestically to this strain of Christian nationalism.... The attack on liberal democracy in the west comes from a global fascist movement, whose center is Christian nationalism. It will be hard to disentangle this movement from antisemitism (albeit a version of antisemitism that allies with forces pushing for a Jewish nationalist state in Israel). Unsurprisingly, proponents of the view that a Christian nation needs protection and defense against liberalism, 'globalism' and their supposed decadence, will be marshaled to their most violent actions when the faces of free, secular, tolerant liberal democracy prominently include Jewish ones."
From "The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to ‘denazify’ Ukraine/The Russian leader’s pretext for invasion recasts Ukraine’s Jewish president as a Nazi and Russian Christians as true victims of the Holocaust" by Jason Stanley (The Guardian). Stanley, a Yale philosophy professor, is the author of "How Fascism Works."
ADDED: Also in The Guardian, there's "'It’s not rational': Putin’s bizarre speech wrecks his once pragmatic image/Analysis: President makes appeal to Ukraine’s military to abandon its ‘drug-addicted, neo-Nazi’ leaders," in which Andrew Roth describes the speech Putin gave on Friday:
“Once again I speak to the Ukrainian soldiers,” he said, addressing his enemy. “Do not allow neo-Nazis and Banderites to use your children, your wives and the elderly as a human shield. Take power into your own hands. It seems that it will be easier for us to come to an agreement than with this gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis.”
The speech seemed to be ripped from an alternate reality – or from the second world war, where Putin appears to be spending more of his time as he launches the kind of broad military offensive not seen in Europe for nearly 70 years.
Banderites? From Wikipedia:
The term derives from the name of Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists. The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles. This was the result of the organization's extreme Polonophobia, but the victims also included other minorities such as the Jews and Romani people. The term "Banderites" was used by the Bandera followers themselves, by others during the Holocaust, and during the massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia by OUN-UPA from 1943–1944. These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
According to Timothy D. Snyder, the term continues to be used (often pejoratively) to describe Ukrainian nationalists who sympathize with fascist ideology and consider themselves followers of the OUN-UPA myth in modern Ukraine....
९६ टिप्पण्या:
That’s quite a word salad from Jason Stanley, who is trying awfully hard to paper over the anti-semitism of western leftism. There is another simpler explanation of Putin’s appeal to de-Nazification and it doesn’t involve weird conspiracy theories about christians and jews at all. In WWII, the Ukrainians sided with the Nazis against the Russians. At least until the Ukrainians discovered Hitler wasn’t interested in their support. Russians remember that.
a version of antisemitism that allies with forces pushing for a Jewish nationalist state in Israel
hmmm? Pro-Jewish, Pro-Israeli, antisemitism ????
huh?
i mean wait a minute; I thought Joy Behar and the rhyming chick were supposed to be the clueless morons?
Or, is this Newspeak? Was it Minitrue that came up with this new 'definition'?
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is strength
It seems he has been listening to the Progressives in America and using the "NAZI!!!" slur against anybody that doesn't think like them.
timmaguire, that's true. However, there is context to the Ukrainian welcoming of Nazis:
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr];[2] derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'),[a][3][4][5] also known as the Terror-Famine[6][7][8] or the Great Famine,[9] was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It was a large part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and allegedly intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement. As part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[10] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine[11] and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.[12]
Headline in the Jeruselum Post:
How Volodymyr Zelensky went from Jewish comedian to Putin’s No. 1 enemy
Joe Biden warmly greeting neo-Nazi Tyahnybok
I don't think that the corrupt Putin should have invaded Ukraine, but this war is a consequence of a single-mindedly feckless foreign policy by the United States "interagency" who saw themselves not answerable to US elections and corrupt Ukrainians who have been recklessly encouraged, and who took sides in American partisan politics.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/ukraines-deadly-gamble .
People believe Donald Trump was a Russian agent so they’ll believe anything.
I am one confused American. Help me here.
Trump is a Nazi. Per Putin, Ukraine, led by Zelensky, are Nazis. Putin is trying to kill these Nazis. Antifa (read: Anti-fascism),the left's favorite protest group, want to eliminate Nazis. Biden sanctions Putin and thereby supporting these Nazis in Ukraine. Zelensky is Jewish, whose ancestors survived the holocaust. The holocaust was executed by Nazis. Sort this out for me please.
"Russian Christians are targets of a conspiracy by a global elite, who, using the vocabulary of liberal democracy and human rights, attack the Christian faith and the Russian nation."
That vocabulary originates in Soviet disinformation running back to Stalin, now lovingly preserved and developed in our corrupted institutions.
Talk about kayfabe. The Nazis when they were at home slaughtered Jews, but in Ukraine they were Jews? Everything that Russian nationalism has had to oppose, including capitalism and Ukrainian nationalism, is led by Jews? Or: there is so much anti-Semitism around, the best way to get any political movement going, right or left, is to say our enemies are led by Jews? The first Politburo in the Soviet Union had a number of Jews on it, and this indeed means Jews were involved in slaughtering Ukrainians, but Communists in Europe have tended to play the anti-Semitism card sooner or later. When Stalin died he was in the midst of a campaign against Jewish doctors, which almost inevitably came to mean most or all doctors. It was literally difficult for the Politiburo at the time to find a doctor to confirm Stalin's death.
This war has been several decades in the making with, IMO, Bill Clinton mostly at fault. Ukraine has always been the jewel Putin has been angling for Step by step. To think this is all about Trump or Biden is silly.
It's all laser pointers right now, but we don't have to chase them.
This has been a good year for Nazis. Putin sees them in the Ukraine, Trudeau sees them amid Canadian truckers. The Boys from Brazil never had it so good.
"Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government."
And Walter Duranty's Pulitzer is still displayed in the lobby of the NYT.
Howard said...timmaguire, that's true. However, there is context to the Ukrainian welcoming of Nazis:
What’s with the “however”? What’s “however” about it?
So, it's ok to call Zelensky a Jewish Nazi, but bad to call George Soros one, even though there's no historic or other principle backing up either statement?
I agree with Mr. Maguire. It's a buncha word salad to avoid acknowledging that Putin is making a ham-fisted, and ultimately unpersuasive, attempt to sound like a typical Western liberal to put a fig leaf over his invading privates. If he threw in making the Ukraine safe for the LGBT-alphabet brigade, he'd hit the trifecta.
Putin uses the 'Jew' card like our media, progressives, and Democrats use the race card in this country.
They are all of the same intellect to me.
Stanley's verbal contortions remind me of a line from that NYT story you posted about the other day on Durham's court filing re: spying on Trump.
To paraphrase:
The latest Putin claims about de-Nazification appeared to be flawed, but the explanation is byzantine — underlining the challenge for those crafting narratives calling their opponents Nazis all the time.
However, Stalin's actual Holocaust in Ukraine made Hitler look like a better option. A very understandable mistake. Woops.
If he threw in making the Ukraine safe for the LGBT-alphabet brigade, he'd hit the trifecta.
This would work with Westerners but not with Russians. Putin has too often used the LGBT community as evidence of the degeneracy of the West. The approval of faculty lounges, airhead celebrities, and HR departments is not what he is looking for.
It's hilarious watching Anne Applebaum on MSBNC telling us this morning that Putin, trotting out the Nazi label, is an age old trick to sway the Russian people. She fails to note the obvious. That is, her own gang of lefties use the same tactic.
>>Sort this out for me please.
There's nothing to sort, Hump.
You must be from the old age.
We now live in the Humpty Dumpty Age, where words mean exactly what you want them to mean.
Arsonists and rioters are peaceful protestors.
Bruce Jenner is a woman.
Jews are now Nazis.
Just push in the clutch on your brain, hop in the handcart, and enjoy the ride.
Too bad that most of the commentators here are so obsessed with attacking the American far left that they can't bring themselves to offer any support for Ukraine's plight. Your sole interest would appear to be seeing Biden screw up.
Let's see the helpful thoughts Trump has added to the conversation so far! In full:
2/24/2022: If I were in Office, this deadly Ukraine situation would never have happened!
2/23/2022: Putin is playing Biden like a drum. It is not a pretty thing to watch!
To say it very sarcastically, 'Nazis' are the Jews of today.
Ps. "In WWII, the Ukrainians sided with the Nazis against the Russians."
Less then half I believe. But even then why would anyone expect Ukrainians to fight for the USSR, the regime which inflicted a genocide level mass murder upon them. The Germans were first seen as liberators and not only by the Ukrainians. Hitler rapidly, and foolishly, changed their mind on that and yet there where people, hundred of thousands of them, see Vlasov, a Russian, who thought Stalin was even worse and I for one can't blame them.
Hitler and Stalin were both monsters but Stalin was the monster which won the war.
Only Hitler's crimes are remembered and that should never happen of have happened. 'Marxist' should be as vile a term as 'nazis'. If Chamberlain was bad in Munich 1938 then the Western Allies were infinitely worse in the aftermath of the war, 'super'-Chamberlains so to speak.
Obama/Biden 2014: Putin invades and takes Ukraine's Crimea.
Trump 2017: zzzzz....
Trump 2018: zzzzz....
Trump 2019: zzzzz....
Trump 2020: zzzzz....
Biden 2022: Putin invades Ukraine.
Sensing a trend here.
".....and the real victims of the Nazis were not the Jews, but rather this group. "
Um - the Nazis had many real victims. Ukraine initially sided with the Nazi invaders (albeit not without justification), and Putin is invoking that. The war in the East was complictated - maybe too complicated for Western academics who need everything to be in black and white.
"If I were in Office, this deadly Ukraine situation would never have happened!"
Bluster, an unprovable assertion.
"While I was in office, the Russians did not invade the Ukraine."
Undeniably true.
Zelensky actually seems like an admirable leader.
Interesting.
Howard said...
This war has been several decades in the making with, IMO, Bill Clinton mostly at fault. Ukraine has always been the jewel Putin has been angling for Step by step. To think this is all about Trump or Biden is silly.
Yeah. That is what we would expect someone who refuses to take responsibility for his actions would say.
You choose to play dumb when you are really just terrible.
Your problem is Putin sounds like a standard Democrat Politician talking about Trump and white people.
And Putin has given billions of dollars to Biden and to leftist environmentalist groups.
jim5301 @ 2/26/22, 7:52 AM
A less erudite but more honest example of every Democrat trying to change the subject to anything but how Biden enabled this disaster.
"And Putin has given billions of dollars to Biden" Source?
It must be nice to live your life totally untethered from facts and reality.
jim5301 said...
Too bad that most of the commentators here are so obsessed with attacking the American far left that they can't bring themselves to offer any support for Ukraine's plight. Your sole interest would appear to be seeing Biden screw up.
Let's see the helpful thoughts Trump has added to the conversation so far! In full:
2/24/2022: If I were in Office, this deadly Ukraine situation would never have happened!
2/23/2022: Putin is playing Biden like a drum. It is not a pretty thing to watch!
This war happened because of you.
This war happened because the dumbshit you supported poops his pants in public.
This war happened because oil is 100$ a barrel.
Oil is 100% a barrel because the environmentalist activists Putin funds in the US killed Keystone XL and are kneecapping the US oil industry.
Because of Joe Biden and Democrats we import 21% of our oil from Russia. We are funding this war every time we get gas now.
jim5301 said...
"And Putin has given billions of dollars to Biden" Source?
It must be nice to live your life totally untethered from facts and reality.
You can deceptively edit my post if you want.
It just makes you a piece of shit.
I said:
And Putin has given billions of dollars to Biden and to leftist environmentalist groups.
Do you wish to retract your lie?
The Biden Regime has only received Millions from Putin.
Really anyone that supports Biden is supporting a known traitor.
Putin learned this from western leftists
What lie? So I guess if Putin gave $1 to Biden and billions to environmental groups, then your statement would be correct? Give me a fucking break.
And your source is that Biden's adult son got 3.5 million from the wife of an ex-Mayor in Moscow? Okay, so account for the other $1,996,500,000. (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that when you said "billions" you meant only 2 billion.)
So tell me about the environmental groups that Putin has given billions to. I always thought he was an oil guy.
Everybody plays "Its another Holocaust card" or the "You hate Black people card" or the "you hate LQgTZwhatever card"
I won't be surprised Putin's next claim is he's stopping the Ukrainian Government from imposing white supremacy on their beloved black Ukrainians.
There are in fact Neo-nazi "organizations" that operate freely in Ukraine. More like small clubs in a handful of rural areas. No real threat, but they are there.
When people hear "Nazi" they think WWII SS Stormtroopers. Those people are long dead.
It is an invasion. And the Ukrainian military had the opportunity to watch what happened to Belarus. And fighting to the death is better than going to reeducation camps and either dying or being enslaved. Hitler, I mean Putin, changed the equation and then tried the same old thing. But people learn. Not Biden, he doesn't have enough cognitive ability left to tie his shoes. But the Ukrainians....well, the prospect of being hanged sharpens and concentrates ones mind wonderfully. The Ukrainians may yet lose....but damned if it won't be expensive for the Russians in terms of both blood and money.
If Putin really wants to overthrow a fascist dictatorship he needs to invade Canada.
Big Mike - Good one.
I love how we have two nations fighting each other and hundreds are getting killed, and everyone's like "Wow, did you know there are nazis in the ukraine. Thats intolerable!"
At this point blaming Biden for his and Obama's and Clinton's stupidities is useless. What Biden should do if he can man up and push the progs to the side is undo his actions with respects to oil and gas, quietly arm the Ukrainians, the Balts, the stans that Putin wants back along with Georgia and Armenia. He should also push the NATO countries to seriously up their defense budgets as Trump exhorted them to do. A real arms build up coupled with a large drop in oil prices will force Putin to back off. If the Ukrainians manage to hold on and inflict a fair number of casualties in an insurgency war against Putin may well result in Putin's removal. Incidentally 100 a barrel not only hurts the West but China as well. A fact that won't go unnoticed by China. Neither will a NATO build up go unnoticed by China and a quiet arming of Taiwan will curb Xi's enthusiasm.
On a more serious note. Putin won the war the day he invaded. The Ukraine can't win, its too weak. Their Government should stop fighting and start negotiating. Every unneccessary death is on their heads.
All these stupid American news articles about "Heroism" and "Handing out AK-47s" is just getting people killed for no reason. War isn't a football game.
Blogger Achilles said...
Zelensky actually seems like an admirable leader.
Interesting.
Yes, but he hitched his wagon to the neo-libs in the west. He could have and should have come clean about Biden. He chose poorly.
This whole thing is like a drug deal gone bad.
“Remember seeing those neo-Nazis and Klansmen and white supremacists coming out of the fields with lighted torches? Veins bulging? Spewing the same anti-Semitic bile heard across Europe in the ’30s?”
Biden ran for President to de-Nazify America. Putin was inspired. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, even among propagandists.
This thread is subject to Godwin's Law, namely, "as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches 1."
Of course, Putin, Trudeau, and most Democrats have shifted the field of fire from the internet to political discourse in general, a most discouraging development. Everyone hates Nazis. There aren't any real Nazis left, and their poor real-life imitators are completely on the fringes of society. Nazi has become a catch-all insult from the left that means nothing. I blame Gore Vidal.
Let's go Brandon!
jim5301--
$3.5 million is enough.
Calling your opponents Nazis justifies anything you want to do. That is lesson of the last few years, is it not?. Trudeau learned it. Putin is trolling the left in the west with this.
Howard said...
However, Stalin's actual Holocaust in Ukraine made Hitler look like a better option. A very understandable mistake. Woops.
2/26/22, 7:48 AM
"The Ukrainians have nothing to do with Nazis, but here's why they backed them historically!"
I know playing on American ignorance is why the Soros types think Ukraine's color revolution will endure, but it's clear that Twitter likes from Biden stooges aren't worth very much against enemy armor. The fact Russia hasn't devastated Ukraine like America wrecked Iraq hasn't been lost on anyone, and by now Zelensky realizes that he's not getting admitted to NATO or even the EU. Ukraine is fighting alone even as the Biden regime sends thoughts and prayers: do you expect Zelensky to fight a la mort knowing the entire Russian military can obliterate you at range when they tire of the soft option? Would YOU fight under those odds?
The Ukraine situation seems like a geo-political Rorschach test, It says as much about the commenter as it does about the situation. I feel sorry for Ukrainians who appear to have been used as a pawn in disputes between much more powerful countries. Their fate appears not to be as a free and independent people like the powerful countries that surround it. It hurts to acknowledge that the world is not fair to countries that lack geographical advantages. Ukraine always has been a crossroads of various powerful tribes and later countries. One needs to care for individuals caught up in this and pray for their souls.
My favorite part so far is that the US is telling Zelensky that he can't meet with the Russians without a US minder in the room. Which is exactly what is pissing off Putin. The US installed, via a coup, a puppet government, and when Biden called and said "Shit!", "Son of a bitch," Biden continued, "Ukraine answered back 'What color?'" Now everybody in the room laughs at this humiliating insight into US - Ukraine corruption.
I think Putin is saying that the Ukraine is a godless, atheistic, rootless, deracinated, anti-nationalist regime working for world conquest which is the usual description of the former Soviet regime but Putin chooses to call this "the Nazis." And Putin is rallying the forces of Russian nationalism and the Russian state religion and Russian anti-Semitism against the godless, etc. destroyers so that Putin is describing himself in the terms the Nazis used - (though the nation and the mission is now Russian, not German.) Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Czar. By this reversal of meanings Putin hopes to put lipstick on the pig of war. I doubt that the Russian people are confused by the reversal and the rest of us cannot understand an attack out of the blue on a neighbor nation. It looks like a home invasion by brutal thugs, not like a Christian revival meeting.
Jason Stanley twists words like a Kremlin propagandist. He doesn't have much grasp of actual history. I'd say he's typical of scholars who were led astray by the big money in anti-Trump books and ventured far from their field of expertise.
I despair of the prospects for real dialogue and constructive argument when stuff like this is the starting point. Where to begin?
Sounds just like everyday democrats to me. I really cannot tell the difference.
tim in vermont said...
My favorite part so far is that the US is telling Zelensky that he can't meet with the Russians without a US minder in the room.
My favorite part was the US State Dept. telling Americans in Ukraine they're on their own, but they can evacuate to Poland, provided they have their vaccine passport.
This war is a consequence of the Ukrainians giving up their nuclear weapons. And the United States continual pushing for Ukraine to be in NATO.
But mostly the giving up of nuclear weapons. See how well it worked for Gaddafi.
Browndog, did they truly say that americans could evacuate to Poland IF they had their vaccine passport? Is that true?
I mean I've been pretty embarrassed by the US since Biden, but goodness gracious. With the flood of unvaccinated illegals streaming into our country, they honestly choose that as a requirement?
doctrev - I may be wrong but I think Zelensky may have changed his mind over the course of the build-up to the invasion. The public announcements by the Biden junta about the imminence of invasion feel like they were designed to pressure Zelensky into doing a deal that would make Biden & Co look like heroes for deterring the invasion in exchange for him getting a permanent sinecure and Putin getting a compliant government in Kyiv. What's the point of announcing a date certain when Putin can make you look like a laughingstock by holding offing 24 hours other than to undermine Zelensky saying he had things under control? I think he does intend to fight to the last man. It's not a good position to be in but he doesn't have a lot of other options, and this is the most honorable one.
"I despair of the prospects for real dialogue and constructive argument when stuff like this is the starting point. "
That's the point. Honest discussion would short circuit the greedy ambitions of people like Vindman.
"Nazi" isn't the term that surprises me, it's beginning to overtake "racist" as the pejorative du jour. "Drug-addicted" is more puzzling and more worthy of discussion, IMO.
’ This whole thing is like a drug deal gone bad.’
The best analogy I’ve heard so far.
An armed Zelensky hits the streets, a witless Biden hits his basement.
Putin, at his core, is a KGB thug. But he always seemed to be a cold, cunning, calculating one. Now he appears to be an untethered dictator ruled by emotion rather than reason.
Up until now he has played the geopolitical cards dealt to him shrewdly. After he took over from Yelstin, Russia has gained military strength, military budgets in the West have subsided and large parts of Europe are dependent on Russian oil (aided by Gerhard Schröder's sellout). He has also benefited from Brexit, the rise of European nationalism and a US more divided than any time in recent history. (The core factors for those were in place, but I'm sure his operatives added fuel to western fires where possible.)
He also got Crimea back with little bloodshed. I thought the smart move, from his perspective, was to use the current military buildup to bring the "Russian" eastern Ukraine under his control and exact a concession that the rest of the Ukraine would not join NATO. He most likely could have done that with little bloodshed and cost to Russia. Instead he made what appears to be a gross miscalculation about Ukrainian resolve. He can win the war, but if its done with a lot of bloodshed then Russia is looking at a long and very costly occupation that will foster a deeper sense nationalism in the Ukraine. European countries will likely increase their defense budgets and lessen their dependence on Russian oil. My guess is that 5-10 years Russia will be in much weaker position than they would have been if Putin had stayed with a gradualist approach for attaining his goals. To me it looks like he overplayed his hand now, perhaps out of impatience or an emotional imbalance.
The Ukrainians are nationalists here, are they not? Haven't we been told over and over, nationalists are Nazis?
A lot of Ukrainians have emigrated to Canada.
That is why so many unvaccinated truckers in Canada are Nazis.
Nazi shmatzie.
The important thing to learn from the invasion of the Ukraine is that, to be safe don’t depend on eastern or western promises. If you have nuclear weapons, keep them. If you don’t have them, get them as fast as you can.
m5301--
So tell me about the environmental groups that Putin has given billions to. I always thought he was an oil guy.
********************
Here ya go:
https://freebeacon.com/issues/foreign-firm-funding-u-s-green-groups-tied-to-state-owned-russian-oil-company/
Not billions, but a helluva lotta money.
Essentially "oil guy" Putin is paying green dupes here in the US to stymie fracking and hobble *our* oil industry, all to make us more dependent on Russia.
But I guess "millions" is just insignificant small change....right?
Dude1394 said...
Browndog, did they truly say that americans could evacuate to Poland IF they had their vaccine passport? Is that true?
Yes. US Embassy Ukraine issued the directive on Feb 12. Walked back to "encouraged" by Feb 14.
The U.S. State Department has spread false information claiming that American citizens evacuating from Ukraine to Poland will have to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination to be allowed entry into Poland.
All that is needed is a negative test result to avoid a 7-day-quarantine. pic.twitter.com/48VUTo47t3
— Visegrad 24
Google has scrubbed it, leaving only the "fact checks" saying the claim is false. LOL.
Here's a reporter asking Jen Psaki about it
Naziism and Stepan Bandera aren't ancient history in the Ukraine any more than they are in Russia. In 2010, pro-Western president Yushenko named Bandera an official Hero of the Ukraine, shortly before pro-Russian president Yanukovych took office. Then Yanukovych reversed that because, well, Bandera was a Nazi. Then Yanukovych was toppled by the Euromaidan mob. The new pro-Western government then renamed a street in Kiev to honour Bandera. Apparently in the Western half of the Ukraine -- the more fiercely pro-Western half -- Bandera remains a heroic figure, particularly in Lviv, near the Polish border (the Poles, for obvious reason, do not appreciate this). Looking into this, Zelenskyy does not seem to be a big Bandera booster (seeing as he is Jewish and Bandera was a murderous anti-Semite, this is unsurprising) but I don't know whether the current government of the Ukraine has actually taken steps to distance itself from celebration of their old Nazi hero. That would do a lot more to rebut the charge that the current Ukrainian government is full of Nazi sympathisers than just repeating that their President is Jewish.
The first images I saw of the Euromaidan protests were protesters with Nazi SS emblems (specifically the Wewelsburg Black Sun symbol) -- I think it was on CNN while I was waiting in an airport. The first thought through my mind was, "What? Those are Nazis!" I didn't know about the Ukrainians creepy hero worship of Bandera at the time, but those images of the protesters have set the frame through which I've viewed the government established following Euromaidan. Every time I've heard happy talk about how wonderful they are, in the back of my mind, I think, "But what about all those Nazis?"
The Ukrainian SS-men I saw on TV were probably from the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, now integrated into the National Guard of the Ukraine. It looks like they are based out of Donetsk and Mariupol in the east, both under near term threat from the Russian attack. They were apparently instrumental in beating back the separatists years ago, so they'll probably be massacred if the Russians capture them.
This isn't to say Russia's in the right here. "But they're Nazis!" isn't a valid justification for invasion, and Putin has his own nostalgia for the world historical evil of the Soviet Union. Just that I'm skeptical of the Ukraine, and recent efforts by Ukraine supporters to bluster and deflect their way past accusations of Nazi-sympathisers in the Ukraine have not made me any less skeptical.
Antifa Inspires Putin...
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.
"This war has been several decades in the making with, IMO, Bill Clinton mostly at fault. Ukraine has always been the jewel Putin has been angling for Step by step. To think this is all about Trump or Biden is silly."
Yes it is silly to blame the guy who is actually President of the United States when something bad happens. It makes much more sense to blame every President who came before him. It's never little Joey's fault.
"So tell me about the environmental groups that Putin has given billions to. I always thought he was an oil guy. "
Why take our word for it when you can hear Joe Biden say it.
"Their newfound environmental concern has really impressed me" - Joe Biden
Does it shock you that Putin would fund anti pipeline groups in Canada, as Hillary Clinton claimed in a speech that appeared on Wikileaks, in order to suppress his competition, and get more money for his own oil?
Re: Amexpat:
He can win the war, but if its done with a lot of bloodshed then Russia is looking at a long and very costly occupation that will foster a deeper sense nationalism in the Ukraine.
Can he though? I don't know how trustworthy reports out of the Ukraine are right now -- a lot of them seem to highlight superior Ukrainian "Will," which is the kind of thing losing armies, whether the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific or the French in Indochina, tend to stress. But the Russian advance does indeed seem to have stalled out immediately, and there are reports that the Russians don't actually have significant material reserves of rockets and heavy munitions lined up to sustain a long war. This could turn out to be a military debacle like the 1939 Soviet invasion of Finland. Although with a nuclear deterrent, no one (China?) is likely to launch another Barbarossa any time soon.
Anti-Nazi implies anti-left-wing (i.e. authoritarian) ideology, anti-Pro-Choice (e.g. selective, opportunistic, life deemed unworthy of life, ethical) religion, anti-diversity [dogma] (e.g. color judgment, class-based bigotry, Jew privilege), anti-social justice (e.g. wars without borders) anywhere is injustice everywhere.
Christian? Try being a Protestant or RC missionary in Orthodox Russia and see how Chrisrian the place is. Orthodox an arm of Putin's state.
Does it shock you that Putin would fund anti pipeline groups in Canada, as Hillary Clinton claimed in a speech that appeared on Wikileaks, in order to suppress his competition, and get more money for his own oil?
The Green blight of renewable, intermittent energy gauntlets. A single/central/shared economy through mandate and monopolistic practice. The heavy hand of progressive prices and costs.
Russia armor out of diesel all over Ukraine.
Zelensky quickly becoming an American cult hero.
Can he though? I don't know how trustworthy reports out of the Ukraine are right now -- a lot of them seem to highlight superior Ukrainian "Will," which is the kind of thing losing armies, whether the Imperial Japanese Army in the Pacific or the French in Indochina, tend to stress. But the Russian advance does indeed seem to have stalled out immediately,
Yes he can win the war, the Russians can cut power and water to the cities plus starve and bomb Ukrainians to submission.
But that wasn't his plan. I think his plan was to shock and awe the Ukrainians and quickly install a new government. That didn't work and that was his miscalculation.
It now looks like he will need to inflict heavy losses on Ukrainian civilians and his own troops to prevail. That will weaken Putin everywhere. Europeans are starting to react. Germany just agreed to allow arms sales to Ukraine, changing a policy that they stubbornly adhered to since after WWII.
I also think most Russians were OK with a limited action to "liberate" the areas of Ukraine where there was a Russian majority. I don't think that will be the case for a bloody occupation of all of the Ukraine.
"Zelensky quickly becoming an American cult hero."
You do know that the first casualty of war is truth, right? Don't let yourself get sucked into it. We simply don't know yet what is really happening. Maybe Putin gets a bloody nose, or maybe we get a long drawn out war where hundreds of thousands die rather than Russia lose face. Or maybe it's all lies and it will be mostly over by the time Biden comes back from his weekend in Delaware. I don't pretend to know and I can live without knowing.
"Putin, at his core, is a KGB thug. But he always seemed to be a cold, cunning, calculating one. Now he appears to be an untethered dictator ruled by emotion rather than reason."
Hysterical and over the top language. Funny how Putin does that to people. And the Chicom leaders never do.
As Nixon would say: Let me make this perfectly clear. Russia - not just Putin - doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. Nor do they want a hostile Ukraine on their border. Nor do they want Russians in the Ukraine to be oppressed.
Looking at this as: Putin's a CRAZY MAN he's TRYING TO CONQUER THE WORLD. is incredibly dumb. I hope to God Biden and the State Department are smarter than this.
"Nor do they want a hostile Ukraine on their border."
Then they are doing it wrong.
Look, I still don't want American lives spent on defending Ukrainian sovereignty. That doesn't mean Putin launching an invasion is something we should ignore. Given the problems he is having there, the situation may resolve itself, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking this invasion was morally justified.
tim in vermont said...
"Zelensky quickly becoming an American cult hero."
You do know that the first casualty of war is truth, right? Don't let yourself get sucked into it. We simply don't know yet what is really happening
I reject the notion I shouldn't make observations based on what I've seen and read. I have no dog in this fight, no agenda, no emotional or political attachments. Go to any English speaking website that allows comment; social media or news, you'll see "wish Zelensky was my President" over and over.
As far as knowing nothing--tons and tons of video shot in real time. Everyone has a camera. Real reporters with real names from real eastern European countries are on the ground in Ukraine.
I submit it's easier to sort through the fake and find the truth in the here and now than it will be after the fact when a narrative is established and opposing facts and evidence are scrubbed are scrubbed from the web.
Apparently we have sent advisors, 100 of them, who are legitimate military targets and will only serve to increase Russian casualties. WWIII is now that much closer.
tim in vermont said...
Apparently we have sent advisors, 100 of them, who are legitimate military targets and will only serve to increase Russian casualties. WWIII is now that much closer.
Agreed. Resources are pouring in from all over the world, in all forms. American anything isn't needed.
Elon Musk
Starlink service is now active in Ukraine. More terminals en route.
5:33 PM · Feb 26, 2022
Blogger Chris Lopes said...
Yes it is silly to blame the guy who is actually President of the United States when something bad happens. It makes much more sense to blame every President who came before him. It's never little Joey's fault.
It's like blaming George Bush for 9/11.
"It's like blaming George Bush for 9/11."
As I recall, more than a few people did.
Jason Stanley doesn't understand that Russians were also victims of Nazism on an enormous scale and obviously hate Nazis. For the most part they react viscerally against anything labeled neo-Nazi. Christianity had little if anything to do with it, as the feeling was shared by the most atheistic Stalinists.
Trying to make out that Putin's rage against "globalism" is based on anti-Semitism is also propagandistic and false. America and the West did try to have their way in the post-Cold War world to the detriment of Russia. Stanley's making out that this is all about Jews suggests that he may be the one who has an anti-Semitic obsession, rather than Putin.
That's not to say that Putin is right or that his invasion is defensible, but Jason Stanley isn't any sort of reliable commentator or analyst. Polemicists have gotten very good at breaking views they don't agree with down into ugly or unpalatable elements, and ignore that their own side may not be free of ugly and unpalatable elements either.
" no agenda, no emotional or political attachments."
Isn't it pretty to think so.
Stephen McIntyre@ClimateAudit. 4h
@moonofa makes important observation that kicking Russia out of SWIFT, satisfying as that may feel in the moment, could easily end the role of US dollar as primary international currency. With rise of Asia, Western Europe and US are only part of total world economy.
India and China are both making non dollar denominated deals with Russia. The dollar is facing a huge inflation risks. This sure looks reckless and I hope that they know what they are doing. Ending the dollar as the world's reserve currency has been a long time goal of a lot of countries.
Christopher B said...
I think he does intend to fight to the last man. It's not a good position to be in but he doesn't have a lot of other options, and this is the most honorable one.
2/26/22, 10:26 AM
I'd consider it more likely that Mel Brooks was prepared to violently engage professional soldiers than Zelensky. I suppose we'll see if otherwise empty Twitter politics is backed by genuine and sufficient force.
Balfegor said...
The Ukrainian SS-men I saw on TV were probably from the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, now integrated into the National Guard of the Ukraine. It looks like they are based out of Donetsk and Mariupol in the east, both under near term threat from the Russian attack. They were apparently instrumental in beating back the separatists years ago, so they'll probably be massacred if the Russians capture them.
This isn't to say Russia's in the right here. "But they're Nazis!" isn't a valid justification for invasion, and Putin has his own nostalgia for the world historical evil of the Soviet Union. Just that I'm skeptical of the Ukraine, and recent efforts by Ukraine supporters to bluster and deflect their way past accusations of Nazi-sympathisers in the Ukraine have not made me any less skeptical.
2/26/22, 12:18 PM
Well, YES, but the fact is that the vast majority of American media, even on the "conservative" side doesn't engage with any of this. Do I suspect this means considerable resolve on the part of the Russian Army and genuine reluctance on the part of Ukrainians who aren't Nazis? You betcha.
Isn't it pretty to think so.
No need to be a dick, but you do you.
I’m trying to figure out whether “the ghost of Kyiv” is a single, extraordinarily skilled, Ukrainian fighter pilot (flying, one notes, the obsolescent MiG 29) or whether multiple fighter pilots have scored kills that are credited to a single anonymous fighter pilot for psychological reasons. Either way, the Ukrainian Air Force is still in the fight.
Big Mike said...
I’m trying to figure out whether “the ghost of Kyiv”...
It's looking more and more like a hoax/Ukrainian propaganda.
What's the real reason for the invasion: HOOLIGANISM. There simply too many Hooligans in Ukraine.
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