१८ ऑगस्ट, २०२१

"Of course, I blame President Biden for the disastrous retrograde operation still unfolding. But let us not allow that to deflect us from heaping even more blame on military leaders."

"They stonewalled President Trump rather than beginning deliberate preparations to exit the country when he told them to. They thought that they could outlast him and then talk sense to his successor. Then after the inauguration, they pressed the new president to reverse course. He wisely chose withdrawal. Then and only then did the generals begin their preparations in earnest. But it was too late to do it well.... General Milley must resign. Not only is he the Chairman of the Joint Staff, prior to that he was the Chief of Staff of the Army. While all services share the blame, the Army is the land domain proponent. The 20 years of failure in Afghanistan is an Army failure.... The capital fell in less than 90 hours. Failure must be punished. And punishment in a bureaucracy means mass firings and a smaller budget—not more money so that they might be better the next time. Congress must consolidate and collapse our intelligence agencies. And when its reorganization is done, if the overall size of the nation’s intelligence apparatus is a quarter of what it is now, that still is too large.... [T]he generals, the intelligence analysts, the defense contractors, and the pundits all leveraged America’s rarest resource: the American serviceman and woman... Even after its failure was apparent to their leaders, they continued to enlist and reenlist, largely because their superiors—the experts—assured them that success was possible. It was not. It never was."
 
That's part of a message from "a senior military officer" published at Instapundit.

११८ टिप्पण्या:

rehajm म्हणाले...

It would be better to sign your name to this but it is all truth. Unfortunately the military/intelligence infrastructure is now sitting on the same side of the negotiating table as the politicians that feed it, and they're willing to do whatever those politicians ask, including bungling their primary mission to spend all their time on woke.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

Maybe USA needs a Cordelia Naismith to teach it to not eat its children


Cordelia

Leland म्हणाले...

If there is one consistency from 11 September 2001 to now; it is our national Intelligence community (FBI, CIA, DIA, DHS) is a disaster. They missed 9/11, failed to track Bin Laden or Saddam, convinced leadership on WMD in Iraq, failed to warn of Russia taking Georgia, failed to see overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt, failed to see overthrow of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, failed to see rise of ISIS, failed to predict Russia taking of Crimea, finally managed to find Bin Laden, spent years telling us Russia interfered in 2016 Elections, and predicted months for Afghanistan to be retaken by the Taliban when it only took a few weeks. That's 2 decades and 4 Presidencies of utter failure. When you get garbage coming in...

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"They thought that they could outlast him and then talk sense to his successor."

They were correct.

"The capital fell in less than 90 hours."

Are we talking about Kabul or Paris?

The next republican elected president (fingers crossed) should fire at least ten thousand people from the top ranks of the military and the government, in addition to decommissioning entire departments like education, the FBI, etc.

If not, we will be forever living in the shadow of a deep state, that even crazy liberals must admit exists, and exists for nefarious reasons.

TreeJoe म्हणाले...

I read it and then came here, not knowing you cross-linked it. I won't post at Instapundit anymore - there's no point.

The core point of that "Senior Military Official" message is correct. Failure must have consequences at the individual, team, and functional level. This is not a navel-gazing exercise of self-reflection and then new proposals to do better next time. Now is the time for wholesale changes to Intelligence and Pentagon.

The blatant failures...not in terms of nation building, but even in terms of predicting when an enemy advance will occur and at what speed, are beyond unacceptable in a nation we spent 20 years in. This wasn't foreign territory and an untested enemy - this was 2 decade occupied territory with embedded intelligence assets and a well known enemy. Hell, a well known US trained Afghan army and government too.

Colossal failures in predictions.

It's happened. It's done. Now is when things get truly dangerous for the U.S.

Failure to act swiftly to change those failed individuals and teams and functions is the most dangerous thing of all. Relying on them is beyond dangerous, for when we rely upon them to identify threats, assess imminency of danger, and plan responses.....now we know that given all the time in the world and in a well planned and well foreseen circumstance, that they are categorically unreliable.

Captain BillieBob म्हणाले...

Agree with everything he says.

We should also reduce the size of every other government agency by the at least half and move them out of DC.

Koot Katmandu म्हणाले...

Pretty good read. I spent 27 years in the Military enlisted -so more of a grunts eye view. I agree with the author. Too bad he fears to put his name on it? I guess that is the times we live in. Free speech is dying more every day.

I once thought most big mistakes or evil deeds could not be covered up in the US. I thought people of conscience would speak out. I do not believe that anymore. The bureaucracy jobs are structured and career locked. Speak out loose your job, pension, and next gig. Too easy to go along and pretend not see things.

Conrad म्हणाले...

I'm sure the military is blameworthy in any number of ways for what's happened in Afghanistan, but I don't follow the reasoning of this anonymous critic's post. Despite a relatively small number of U.S. boots on the ground, the situation in Afghanistan was fairly stable until Biden, contrary to the advice of the military brass, decided to cut and run. That previous stability, moreover, was due in large part to the air support and special forces resources that the U.S. was providing to aid the Afghan army in holding off the Taliban. Without the support the U.S. military was providing, it was completely foreseeable that the Taliban would overtake the country. So why is the military to blame? Is it to blame for the decision to pull out? No. Is it to blame for the decision to pull out in such a disorganized, abrupt fashion? Again, this seems to have been Biden's decision, made in contravention of the military's advice. Is it to blame for not bringing the Afghan military up to the level of the U.S. military in terms of air support, special forces capabilities, etc.? Perhaps, but that conclusion seems to cut against the poster's premise that the army's sole purpose is to win wars and go home.

Biden just wanted out and didn't much care about the consequences. He figured that most Americans no longer cared about Afghanistan, and those who did were anti-war types who have been beating the drum for withdrawal for years. Biden did this mainly as a sop to them, and so he could cross off "Ended war in Afghanistan" on his presidential accomplishment bingo card. He remembered Ford and Kissinger getting away with letting South Vietnam fall to the North and figured he would similarly skate on this if and when it all blew up.

I'm sure the military made a million mistakes in all of this, but the biggest failure in the end was Biden's utter lack of judgment and his lack of concern for those most directly affected by the U.S. pullout.

Final thought: If it's true that there are thousands of Americans who may not get out, and if those Americans end up getting killed or taken hostage, Biden would not survive that, politically. He would have to resign.

Iman म्हणाले...

I have a member of our extended family who wrote a good book about his military experiences in Afghanistan, “Hammerhead Six”.

From a “product description”:

“Two years before the action in Lone Survivor, a team of Green Berets conducted a very different, successful mission in Afghanistan's notorious Pech Valley. Led by Captain Ronald Fry, Hammerhead Six applied the principles of unconventional warfare to "win hearts and minds" and fight against the terrorist insurgency.

In 2003, the Special Forces soldiers entered an area later called "the most dangerous place in Afghanistan." Here, where the line between civilians and armed zealots was indistinct, they illustrated the Afghan proverb: "I destroy my enemy by making him my friend." Fry recounts how they were seen as welcome guests rather than invaders. Soon after their deployment ended, the Pech Valley reverted to turmoil. Their success was never replicated. Hammerhead Six finally reveals how cultural respect, hard work (and the occasional machine-gun burst) were more than a match for the Taliban and Al Qaeda.“

So, no matter the effort put forth, the Afghans will revert to their ways.

Chuck म्हणाले...

Well I suppose that I should take some satisfaction in Glenn Reynolds' anonymous friend acknowledging that the US military's senior leadership opposed Trump's election-year pullout scheme, and that they carried their opposition over to the Biden Administration. Rightly. Before following the civilian leadership, even if it was stupid leadership.

The best substantive response to this appeared this morning at The Bulwark. The brilliant Robert Tracinski, who gave us "The Charlottesville Hoax" Hoax is back, now with his take on the Afghanistan pullout:

Real Afghanistan Withdrawal Has Never Been Tried

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Did Trump ever stupidly advertise a withdraw date?

The idea that Biden "inherited a plan from is predecessor" - is laughable when we consider Biden has trashed everything Trump ever did or set up.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

so the leaders of Taliban expect to be able to fly safely in >>> where is Trump when you need him >>> why not shoot the plane down?

do we even have /intelligence/ able to identitfy which plane ??!!

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

MATT TAIBBI:

“Every image coming out of Afghanistan this past weekend was an advertisement for the incompetence, arrogance, and double-dealing nature of American foreign policy leaders. Scenes of military dogs being evacuated while our troops fire weapons in the air to disperse humans desperate for a seat out of the country will force every theoretical future ally to think twice about partnering with us.”

The corrupt powers that be removed Trump - and now blame Trump. They (The corrupt left) cannot have it both ways.


Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

The way they disobeyed orders from Trump is a sign every flag officer should be fired now.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

@Althouse, you read that, too? It has a lot to ponder. BTW, if you’re unfamiliar with DoD acronyms, CENTCOM, formerly commanded by the current Secretary of Defense, has an Area of Responsibility (AOR in DoD terminology) that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, a few other countries whose names end in “stan,” as well as Iran, Iraq, and the rest of Middle East. If you want to know which generals stonewalled then-President Trump in developing complete and comprehensive disengagement plans then former CENTCOM Commander and current Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin III, then Chief of Staff of the Army and current Chsirman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley, and then-Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis. So far only Mattis has had the grace to resign if he did not feel he could be responsive to the Commander in Chief’s orders.

mccullough म्हणाले...

Who is going to replace these scoundrels if they resign?

Who has any confidence that the New Bosses of the military will be any different?

We have a generation of lying careerist failures in the ranks.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Potemkin Biden and his handlers wanted a 9/11 anniversary feather in his cap. Or a feather in his ice cream cone. A big group hug talking point for his soft-touch media to gush over.

It appears the incompetent bureaucratic woke military generals F*k-ed it up. They have blood on their hands.

*insert whine &* * blame Trump!*

Mr Wibble म्हणाले...

If he's not willing to go on the record with his criticism, then I don't care what he has to say.

Owen म्हणाले...

I recently began reading David Halberstam’s “The Best And The Brightest.” The parallels are depressingly complete. Whatever lessons we eventually from the debacle in Vietnam were forgotten long ago —probably in the orgy of self-congratulation after Iraq War #1.

Lars Porsena म्हणाले...

During WWII the ratio of general officers to soldiers was 1 to 6000. Now the ration is approximately 1 to 1500. If you want a lean hard efficient military, start by slashing the officer corps.

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

I agree. Milley must be fired. Also SecDef Austin. Jake Sullivan. And the head of the CIA.

Many, many people need to be fired over this. Major house cleaning.

And after that, then Joe must resign.

But none of this will happen because this is the Deep State. Our government is wildly corrupt and inept.

Joe won't resign because Hunter's art sale is coming up.

The Taliban will take many hostages. KSM will be out of Gitmo by Xmas.

China is already planning something for Taiwan.

Today on Fox Business with Maria, Trump said he is effectively running in 2024.

wendybar म्हणाले...

Who would EVER enlist now?? Who would ever work with Americans again in the world??

JAORE म्हणाले...

We have had, seemingly, unending failures of intel and military operations. The FBI's screw up train, for example, led straight to upper management.

How many top heads rolled after the embarrassing failures? I don't know the number, but it certainly approaches zero.

Every inquiry seemingly ends with a finding they can not find a culprit.

That must end. Firing, demotions, assignments in Nowhere, Nebraska. Hell, do that to those charged with the inquiries. Can a few GS-14's until they tell the truth about the GS-15's and you'll get the truth out of the SES people. Then come the political appointees.

Jim Gust म्हणाले...

That is an outstanding analysis. I thank you for spreading it beyond the Instapundit multiverse.

I am deeply troubled by the admission that our military has already concluded it cannot stop a Chinese incursion to Taiwan or a Russian invasion of the Baltic states. I have family in Lithuania, I wonder if I should be getting them out now?

Skeptical Voter म्हणाले...

It was an interesting read over there at Instapundit. The Perfumed Princes of the Pentagon are essentially political players. And a combination of their career experience--mostly "nation building" and little wars or incursions over the last 30 years, and the political general's instinct to toady to whoever or whatever is in power yields General Milley.
Who wants to read up on Critical Race Theory and transgender dysphoria.

Compare and contrast with George Patton who knew what an Army should do.

mikee म्हणाले...

My questions to our past several presidents: Why were the Taliban allowed safe haven in other countries, from Pakistan to Qatar? Why were the countries sheltering the Taliban allowed to do so without severe repercussions?

One lesson of Vietnam was that an enemy with safe havens and ongoing external support is available to return to the battlefield upon cessation of defensive activities.

gilbar म्हणाले...

Remember the old days? Back when i used to joke about "the reanimated corpse" of RBG?
It sure seems, like they should be using some of that zombie magic on President Sleepy Jo Biden.
I mean,
there's a crisis...
So, they put Jo on Ice for a couple of days, then pump him up with Adderall...
And he manages to limp through a 20 minute photo op (no Questions! Please!)
Then, back on Ice for what? another 3 days? (a week? (a month??)).
Since Jo has been Commander in Chief; how many minutes (TOTAL) has he been in public eye?

Maybe (Just Maybe),
having a brain dead buffoon for Leader of The FREE WORLD; isn't really a good idea?

CWJ म्हणाले...

The last I recall, some years ago Afghanistan was expanded into a NATO operation. Did it become unNATOed since then? If not, were our allies kept in the loop at all? What do they think of all this?

Mark म्हणाले...

"the experts—assured them that success was possible. It was not. It never was."

This is utter and complete nonsense (the rest of the piece is OK).

Success was certainly possible for the Taliban. They never thought their defeat was inevitable. They never gave up. Instead, the Taliban had the superior WILL to prevail.

The problem is that Osama bin Laden was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in his assessment of the U.S. -- that the U.S. might rain down on them for a while, but eventually the U.S. would give up and go away because the U.S. lacks the necessary will. Meanwhile, these evil thugs have been warring with civilized humanity for the last 1400 years. You didn't see the Taliban whining about "It's been 20 years! It's not worth it! No mas!"

Sigivald म्हणाले...

"While all services share the blame, the Army is the land domain proponent"

I'm gonna suggest that the Coast Guard is blameless here.

And probably the Navy had very little to do with prep for leaving.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Insiders $$$$ do not get fired. They get a pass.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"Who is going to replace these scoundrels if they resign?"

Who says they should be replaced?

This country was designed to be run at the state and local levels. It has morphed into a gigantic DC grift-mill of epic proportions. For example, more than 30,000 people work in the Pentagon alone.

I say we do an actual decimation of federal workers...only one in ten will remain.

Mark म्हणाले...

You want to know why the U.S. is an independent country today, why we are still not a colony of Great Britain?

General Washington had a vastly inferior army. Ill-equipped, poorly-fed, under-paid, incompletely-trained farmers and good-for-nothings going against the superior troops of His Majesty's service. And yet he prevailed.

Why? And why did this feat make him America's greatest president? Because of his obstinate superior will that refused to give up no matter what.

Chuck म्हणाले...

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...
Did Trump ever stupidly advertise a withdraw date?


"I made early withdraw possible by already pulling much of our billions of dollars and equipment out and, more importantly, reducing our military presence to less than 2,000 troops from the 16,000 level that was there."

"Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do," Mr. Trump said. "I planned to withdraw on May 1st, and we should keep as close to that schedule as possible."

~ Donald Trump, April 18, 2021.

Temujin म्हणाले...

And while we all moan and wail in anger and frustration, people are living minute to minute in both Afghanistan and Haiti. And our borders are wide open. If I were a strategist for Al Queda, working with the Taliban, I would have been in phase 4 of a plan at this point. They knew the Taliban were taking over Afghanistan. They knew who to pay off. They certainly knew the Afghan army, such as it was, was afraid and incompetent, and would never have stood up to a real battle. They knew this. Our people now say they knew it as well, but here we are. So why wouldn't Al Queda work with the Taliban, asking them to keep the Americans attention on what's going on in Kabul, while they insert some of their finest mujahideen across our southern border, to safe houses here in the US?

Our current leaders not only have no idea what they are doing, they have no idea what they are doing on any level, with any situation. So I can say with pretty good conviction, that danger has already come across our border, or is on it's way currently. With a plan. Something our administration seems to not like using much.

I had been commenting here for an entire year prior to the last election, stating that there should not be another Democrat elected for two generations. I meant it. And now it may be too late to avoid the damage they've done. That party is a disease on the American Dream. And not just for us, but for the entire world.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Chuck - Good thing Trump was ousted by the Chi Com virus.

That way Biden could use 9/11 date instead. A much better date, indeed.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

It's stupid to advertise a withdraw date. Both Biden and Trump did so. OK.
However, Biden is the president, and the buck stops with him. Right?

The 9/11 date was a pathetic idea. Tying surrender with an act of terror that was a success for terrorists. Even Trump isn't THAT dumb.


Reality - The buck stops ... er... the bucks pile up in Biden family bank accounts. The Big guy.

Meade म्हणाले...

“Did Trump ever stupidly advertise a withdraw date?“

WHILE he was Commander in Chief? No. Of course not.

Chuck म्हणाले...

CWJ said...
The last I recall, some years ago Afghanistan was expanded into a NATO operation. Did it become unNATOed since then? If not, were our allies kept in the loop at all? What do they think of all this?


In the UK, they are royally pissed off:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/17/uk-politicians-decry-joe-bidens-defence-of-afghanistan-pullout

Tom Tugendhat is a Tory MP who served a decade or more in the British Territorial Army in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who was a senior intelligence officer in Afghanistan. He is furious at both Biden and Trump.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58220730

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Good point, Meade.

Trump isn't president anymore. The powers that be made sure of it.

Drago म्हणाले...

As LLR Chuck is amply demonstrating, marxists make very poor strategic military analysts.

Meade म्हणाले...

“I have family in Lithuania, I wonder if I should be getting them out now?“

Not offering advice but if it were me, I probably would. But then hell, I have loved ones in New York City, and I’m thinking about trying to get them out.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"The corrupt powers that be removed Trump."

It was the voters who removed Trump.

That said, I admire Trump's intent to withdraw from Afghanistan, but he was too weak to overrule his generals. Also, the post-withdrawal outcome we're seeing now would have occurred exactly the same...just then instead of now.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"they continued to enlist and reenlist, largely because their superiors—the experts—assured them that success was possible."

I doubt that was the primary motivation. Most enlistees never fight anyway. No need to lard a sensible critique with BS.

"It was not. It never was."

Of course. But that was obvious to everyone who paid attention. The only thing different now is that the lies and incompetence have been unspinnably exposed.

Chuck म्हणाले...

Blogger Meade said...
“Did Trump ever stupidly advertise a withdraw date?“

WHILE he was Commander in Chief? No. Of course not.


Of course he did. He absolutely did. To the absolute horror of every serious adult involved in national security. Remember? It was October of 2020 and Trump was getting desperate about the upcoming election. And so Trump announced that US troops would be entirely out by December, or the end of December, depending on whether you believed Trump or his slightly less incompetent White House Communications Office.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/08/donald-trump-afghanistan-us-troops-taliban

That was only the most chaotic part. The Doha Agreement has the US committed to a large majority withdrawal by July 2020 and complete withdrawal by May 1, 2021. Commitments by Commander in Chief Donald Trump.

The October thing was of course electioneering panic. But give Trump no credit at all for it having been foiled by massive Pentagon pushback.

Jaq म्हणाले...

I hate to let Biden off the hook in any way, but this is kind of like firing MacArthur, except that Biden apparently doesn't have the stones to fire the people who helped get him elected by undermining Trump. Misplaced gratitude is a fatal weakness in a head of state.

Drago म्हणाले...

I find it unsurprising that LLR and self-anointed Field Marshall Chuck has deemed himself sufficiently competent to attempt to deflect from what is clearly the truth and is being exposed more and more everyday by the very institutions that LLR Chuck adores.

And it was just months ago that those very institutions were said to be sacrosanct and beyond question by LLR Chuck and his lefty minions.

But that's the thing with marxists, they will rewrite history and change the narratives minute by minute if need be as that is what it takes to keep the attention off their affiliated marxists.

Iman म्हणाले...

I saw a photo of some Taliban mopes eating Joe’s ice cream cone, and they were smiling as they did it.

cubanbob म्हणाले...

The only way to gain the respect and confidence of our allies and put fear into our adversaries is to fire everyone in the military from brigadier up. Get rid of the deadwood. Once the firings are done then review to see which general officers are worth keeping and promote from below.The function of the military is to kill our enemies and destroy what needs to be destroyed in order to win. The only officers the services need is those that are competent and capable of carrying out the mission.The social workers must go at all levels. The same house cleaning is needed at all the intelligence services and at the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies. As noted by others above thread budgets need to be slashed for incompetence and failures along with personnel and various agencies and departments need to be either pruned for mission creep or abolished outright. Unfortunately I don't see any plausible candidate for Presidency including Trump ( whom I support) to have the guts to do this and face off with Congress when it comes to reducing the spending.

MikeR म्हणाले...

That is exactly how I feel.

Iman म्हणाले...

If anyone still thought the Biden Administration was competent and effective, watching Jake Sullivan struggle at the podium should disabuse them of that notion.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

So many here and in the USA continue to take the wrong lessons from our military catastrophes. It's not that we should have "had more will" or "stayed longer" (Hoo Boy!) or a "better" (sic) president to prosecute a "better" (sic) war, it's that we never should have initiated these baseless, pointless, illegal wars in the first place,wars born of the hubris and unending hunger of empire for ever more: more power, more plunder, more profit.

As General Smedley Butler explained in the last century, "War is a Racket!"

"-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

"I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

"I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger men' to point out enemies, its 'muscle men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations, and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

"It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

"I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

"During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Kevin म्हणाले...

"As part of my brilliant plan, we're going to shut down Bagram and the US Embassy before we tell any of our allies. Then we'll trust the Taliban to let American citizens through their checkpoints in the hope we can find some way to evacuate them from the airport with only one runway. As for the translators, they need to go to a US government website and see if anyone gets back to them."

~ Donald Trump, April 18, 2021.

Oh right, that didn't happen...

Drago म्हणाले...

The real "tell" on how any situation is playing out in the real world is to watch the actions of the less leftist democratical politicians.

The dynamic we see at Althouse blog is that even as reality sets in through the thick skulls of the democraticals in DC, a number of far left usual suspects at Althouse blog (particularly LLR Chuck, Howard, dumb lefty Mark and Left Bank) will continue the dead talking points for weeks and months and, in some cases, years, after complete debunking and rhetorical retreat (garnering retrogrades!) of most everyone else.

Let's see how long this crew keeps this up.

Should be fun.

Chris Lopes म्हणाले...

@Chuck

You really have to get over the guy. You are fighting a battle you have already won. I'm sure if he were here he'd tell you ,"Look, it's not you, it's me."

M Jordan म्हणाले...

I've had this feeling for about a half-year now that the Woke moment is over, that the wave crested sometime last fall. Somehow (probably by fraud) the left managed to keep it alive long enough to dump Trump but their day was over even before Biden took office.

Now we see it all in plain view: the entire progressive community has failed. We can't fire them all but I suspect all the institutions will now retrench, allow conservative voices to return again, at least to a small degree. Trump will likely even get his place back on Twitter if he wants it.

The progressive left is morally bankrupt and soon to be fiscally bankrupt. Cuomo's gone, Newsom next, and who knows, Biden may not last out his term. As for Gen. Milley, he was gone before he was gone. I doubt he'll last a year.

NKP म्हणाले...

The problem with senior military officers is not that they're stupid; many are brilliant but all are careerists and the warrior ethic takes a back seat to knowing which way the wind blows. Advancement depends more on support of environmental causes, HR initiatives, legal opinions and contractor influence than preparing to fight and win wars. Civilian masters of the military, in most cases, are spectacularly unqualified for their positions. Until we again insist on standards that only the best meet, we're stuck the approved mix of women, POC and QWERTYS. God help us, all.

M Jordan म्हणाले...

I taught in Lithuania two terms. I love the country. But they know what's happening. They're building a wall right now to keep Belarusa from shoving "immigrants" into their country. They lived through the Soviet times and the Nazi times. Memories are long there.

We are about to see a dramatic turn away from progressive values. I hope that doesn't include the good liberal values that once mattered.

effinayright म्हणाले...

If I were living in Taiwan I would be shitting moo goo gai pan right now, knowing that Eleven Jinping will very likely take advantage of the mortally-wounded Paper Tiger.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

the fake voters removed Trump.

U-hauls and endless counting in targeted precincts. - under cover of nightfall without proper vigilance. Many of us fear cheating occured. but we are not allowed to say so.

Breezy म्हणाले...

This essay is well-written and full of ideas that should be vetted, along with others, then acted upon within months, not years. The US must reclaim its pre-eminent stature for all the freedom loving people in the world.

Unfortunately, we live in an age where things take an inordinate amount of time to resolve... Stakeholders stall and stall because they can - they benefit greatly in terms of power or money... until they are no longer allowed to.

Let's sweep those ridiculous Infrastructure Bills off the table post haste and get on with the government purge and reset that is long overdue.

Temujin म्हणाले...

Chuck- at this point you should cease using the phrase 'every serious adult' in the same sentence as 'national security'. While some of them may be serious people, they are certainly not good at their jobs, and in many cases, probably not serious adults. I mean, these are the same serious national security adults that missed the fall of the Berlin Wall. Pretty big deal to miss. They also missed the fall of the Soviet Union, these serious adults in national security. As well as the Russian takeover of the Crimea. And a little thing we like to call 9/11. Yeah. They missed that, even as the terrorists advertised their project by taking public flight instructions in Florida. I guess our serious adults were out drinking some serious adult beverages at that time. And for the last 50 years or so. How about the first World Trade Center bombing. Remember that one? Our Serious Adults missed it.

And of course, remember 'weapons of mass destruction'? They didn't miss that one. They made it up instead. And got so good at making things up, years later they used that newly found talent to help create and push the Steele Dossier. They're more like serious fiction writers than they are national security. You'd have to say that by now.

And they seem not worried one bit about our southern border because they're too busy setting up supposed kidnappers of a weak Michigan Governor, and jailing, without charges or bond, people who walked in and sat down in the Senate chambers, which didn't piss off Nancy Pelosi nearly as much as that guy who sat in her chair and put his feet on her desk. Now THAT demands a national security measure.

The Doha Agreement and dates given by the Trump team were benchmark dates- the process going forward only as long as the Taliban held off. The result of them not holding off would have been worlds different under Trump than it is under Biden and the Model Airplane Club he calls his National Security team. Those doubting now that Trump would have laid the thick wood on the Taliban are the same people who used to tell us they laid awake at night worried that Trump would let loose the nuclear arsenal at any moment. Well, which is it?

Anyway- this is Biden's complete fuck up. Trump is not in office. Biden is. I would think there are about 69 million people embarrassed with their vote last November. That is the 69MM that actually voted for Biden, plus the 14MM that were 'found' late at night, after the polling stations were 'closed'.

Roger Sweeny म्हणाले...

General Butler is right. We should have abolished the army in 1933. Then I could use all that German I learned in high school.

Meade म्हणाले...

Chuck said...
“Did Trump ever stupidly advertise a withdraw date?“
“Of course he did. He absolutely did. To the absolute horror of every serious adult involved in national security. Remember? It was October “

Re-read that Guardian article you linked to. Read it carefully. Your own evidence impeaches your dishonest allegations. Chuck, you are a fraud, and a liar. Based on your actions, I have to question whether or not you are even American.

Michael म्हणाले...

"So many here and in the USA continue to take the wrong lessons from our military catastrophes. It's not that we should have "had more will" or "stayed longer" (Hoo Boy!) or a "better" (sic) president to prosecute a "better" (sic) war, it's that we never should have initiated these baseless, pointless, illegal wars in the first place,wars born of the hubris and unending hunger of empire for ever more: more power, more plunder, more profit."

So where would you have held the ceremony of surrender to Al-Qaeda, Robert Cook?

Yinzer म्हणाले...

'It was the voters who removed Trump.'

Continue to believe that lie if you want. There were not, nor will ever be, 80 million voters for Biden. If this comment puts me on the terror watch list, so be it.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

Probably close to everyone in the highest ranks of the bureaucracy is a greedy corrupt money whore.

Hunter and Joe lead the way. Pelosi FAMILY is America's Castro Family.

Yes, Fidel is dead, but the Castro family is worth hundreds of millions while the islanders of Cuba are poor. yeah yeah - their so-called free health care is crap.
Castro family health care is good stuff - much like our congress.

I'd like to line the Castro family up against a wall and go Che on them and return all of that money they stole TO THE PEOPLE.

There are wars worth fighting but we no longer have the will and we certainly don't ever help anyone for humanitarian reasons. Which is a shame.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Sure, I enjoy punching Chuck in the nose all the time, but is it useful to any discussion? Inga is a better commentator and I disagree with her on nearly everything. Is she being censored here, or has she just not tried?

Gospace म्हणाले...

Robert Cook said...
"The corrupt powers that be removed Trump."

It was the voters who removed Trump.


There are a significant number of citizens who do not believe that, and that is a BIG problem.

Red flags galore- Trump- the first ever president to be defeated who received MORE votes in his reelection campaign then in his election. Biden- drawing 10 million more votes than the lightbringer who is going to heal all racial divisions and unite the country, 10 million more votes while rarely emerging from his basement, drawing awesome crowds of less than 100 people when he does so. Wild enthusiasm everywhere.

Middle of the night vote counting stop- in 6 states that Biden miraculously won with huge sudden vote surges.

And, the Democrats are so certain he won legitimately and there was no cheating involved- they're fighting tooth and nail in courts with a full on public relations blitz in the media- provided free by the media- to prevent any meaningful full audit of votes.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Robert Cook,

I agree with pretty much all of that. I think going after Al Quaeda in Afghanistan was a just act of retribution, and one no president was going to be able to avoid, but not what followed.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Some stuff is starting to leak out from the administration as people start trying to assign, shift, and deny the blame for what happened last week. Almost all of it suggests that the plan, such as it was, was all Joe Biden- that the orders of withdrawal were down to him and him alone. Perhaps Biden got terrible advice from the intelligence community, but the leaks are saying plans to withdraw all the civilians first and the military last were in place before Biden changed it all up, and I am inclined to believe these leaks. If people like Austin and Milley are to blame, it is on them for not resigning in protest when the plans weren't followed, and it is now on them to come forth and tell the American public what happened. Congress could, of course, do its actual job and bring all these people to public hearings under oath, but they are too busy lining their pockets and investigating people who took selfies in the Capitol on January 6th.

Icepilot म्हणाले...

The Afghan army wouldn't fight for woke women. Or LGBTQ. Or transgenders. Or for the latest crop of junior officers cycled in to get their combat pins. Or for the woke crew of guys w/stars on their collars.
Go figure.

phantommut म्हणाले...

At this point my chief disappointment with Trump is that he didn't use his signature "You're fired!" move often enough.

Iman म्हणाले...

Watching Austin and Milley “answering” questions… journalists listening and then asking the same question again IN ANOTHER VAIN ATTEMPT TO GET AN ANSWER.

As one black journalist said, “the video is not matching the audio”. Asks her question and after Austin’s evasion says, you didn’t answer the question and asks it again.

Incompetent Clowns!

Iman म्हणाले...

My God! These people are buffoons. I’m nearly 70 years of age and I have never seen an appearance by senior military people where they came across as bad as this. The constipated look on Miley’s face at times is priceless.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

The problem is like COVID-19. The strategy of Afganistán was politicized. Listening to Rush’s replacement I remembered why we were there.

Everybody forgot about al Qaeda. Including me. Even though I do remember, scantily, when I take my shoes off at the airport. If al Qaeda comes back to Afganistán and begin plotting and recutting and attacking from there. Today’s decision to leave Afganistán is going to hurt really bad.

Holy fuck.

The Covid balls took off our eyes.

Bender म्हणाले...

Success was certainly possible for the Taliban. They never thought their defeat was inevitable. They never gave up. Instead, the Taliban had the superior WILL to prevail. [Meanwhile,] eventually the U.S. would give up and go away because the U.S. lacks the necessary will.

Afghanistan Vet: Every Enemy Knows How to Defeat the United States Now
We as a country have been here before. We did this in Iraq in 2019, 2011, and 1991; Vietnam in 1975; and Cuba in 1961. In fact, we have abandoned everyone who has ever helped us in a major conflict since 1953. Since Vietnam, our adversaries have learned that all it takes to defeat the most powerful, technologically advanced military that has ever existed is to simply be patient. . . all you must do is wait it out. Poke and prod and kill enough Americans to keep the war on the front page of the news, and eventually, an election cycle will come up with the slogan: “Bring our boys home.” . . . The irony, of course, is that this is precisely how we defeated the largest and most advanced military in the world some two hundred years ago.

Bender म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
Bender म्हणाले...

the plan, such as it was, was all Joe Biden- that the orders of withdrawal were down to him and him alone

Cut to the scene in Red October -- >You arrogant ass. You've killed us!

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

A question for Althouse and Meade- under the new moderation method, are all new comments in a thread at the end of the thread. I usually only go back to the last comment at the end before an new update, so it would be good know if I need to look deeper into the thread for new comments.

Drago म्हणाले...

And now we have the inevitable conflicting reports coming from the astonishingly inept White House and the astonishingly inept Pentagon (represented by Thoroughly Modern (Gen) Milley (h/t to Mark Steyn))

The White House is reporting what other agencies are reporting: there is significant interference at the airport by the taliban (you know, "relatively peaceful" beatings and shootings according to Howard) meanwhile, our Fabulously Woke Pentagon (did you know they now stock tampons in the "Identifying as Male" bathrooms! So exciting! Plus all the lipstick colors you could ever want! And don't get me started with what they have in the "identifying as Women" restroom!) is claiming that there is no problem whatsoever.

And if we've learned one thing, its that we can certainly trust our intrepid CIA-ers (the ones not assigned to work directly with the NSA/FBI to set up republicans/conservatives) and military "intelligence" types to give us a clear-eyed view of the situation on the ground, can't we?

Final Note: According to our marxist supporting LLR Chuck and his 2nd stooge pal Howard, having the White House and Pentagon conflict with their interpretations on the ground situation was an "Absolute Requirement of the Trump Plan" and therefore our poor, poor, all round good guy Biden had no choice but to implement that plan. Darnit! That diabolical Bad Orange Man!

Drago म्हणाले...

Breaking News: Kamala fans, foremost among them LLR Chuck (although, truth be told, LLR Chuck would really prefer if Kamala were a little more to the left on the issues, just like LLR Chuck), will be happy to hear that Kamala is OUTTA HERE!

She is headed off to the Pacific as fast as her AF2 Bird can take her (Pro Tip: Check the wheel wells for "surprise passengers", which has become quite a "thing" under democratical leadership).

Now, as LLR Chuck and Howard will no doubt tell us all shortly, this is a bad move PR wise, but that darn Bad Orange Man's Plan was all laid out and required the VP leave for a trip to the Pacific at the height of this Historical Inflection Point Crisis.

VP Kamala Cackle probably doesn't want to go, but what can she do against this tidal wave onslaught of prior-Trump planning? All her agency has been removed and now she must meander robot-like to the plane and leave DC even though it is her deepest wish to stand before the American people and take charge of this situation since its clear that Dementia Groper Boy is not up to the challenge.....but darnit. She can't! Because of Orange Man Bad's "plan"!

Oh what bad luck!.........What other requirements were in that plan you may ask.

Well, stick around because Howard and LLR Chuck are busy little beavers in uncovering all the nefarious land mines Orange Man Bad laid for our unsuspecting heroes and they are happy to share them with all of us...and given LLR Chuck's deep, deep understanding of combat operations (he once read a Daisy Air Rifle ad) he is able to put these land mine Trump rules in the proper context.

Thank goodness!

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Do I really think that the nearly incapacitated Joe Biden dictated to Milley and Austin when they and their predecessors routinely blew off Trump? Well, maybe, but then they are dupes and fools. Our collective experience is that senior government officials slow-walk things that they don't want to do. Austin and Milley are in this up to their necks, and it is being done badly. This isn't about their obeying Biden's orders. This is about their being incompetent.

Iman म्हणाले...

“Unexpected evacuation challenges may occur”…

You abandoned Bagram a few months ago, pretty sure they will occur.

Drago म्हणाले...

More Breaking News: According to published reports in many of America's New Pravda Press organs, President "Can I touch your 8 year old chest where your breast is" Two-Scoops, has yet to call a single foreign leader about this crisis.

According to LLR Chuck and Howard, that's only because the Bad Orange Man's detailed plan, from which no deviation is allowed lest the Earth literally spin out of its orbit and thus killing all organic life on the planet, called for shutting down all out-going Presidential phone lines at just this point in the crisis!

Can you believe it?

According to LLR Chuck and Howard, this might not even be the sneakiest little "rule" in that nefarious Trump plan! My God! What else could there be?

It is my understanding that even now Biden is tapping out his code (Joe Biden was once imprisoned with Nelson Mandela (LLR Chuck can vouch for that) and had to learn POW tap code to get word out on how to break him and Nelson out of prison..soon to be a made for TV After School Very Special Presentation) and having it transcribed into blocks of ice cream which are then photographed onto a random instagram accounts to be shared with foreign leaders.

Not to worry dear reader. Our intrepid President, though shackled beyond all reason by the evil Orange Man Plans, will do whatever it takes to sniff little girls in extraordinarily uncomfortable ways while in public and communicate with his counterparts to Save The Day.

That story is no doubt already written and Hollywood is simply waiting to greenlight it after all rights are fully secured. Our own generation's "PT 109" story!! Hooray!

Joe T. म्हणाले...

From Joseph:
At some point in the late 80s or early 90s, satirist A. Whitney Brown wondered what the discussion in the Kremlin might have been when the Soviet Union's leaders decided to go into Afghanistan--something like, "We need more barren, mountainous territory. And who ever heard of a Muslim holding a grudge?" A mess for them, and it contributed in no small way to their ultimate collapse.

Twenty years ago, progressives like Michael Moore were telling us that Iraq was based on a lie and that we should go--had an obligation to go, in fact--into Afghanistan. While we may all agree now that Iraq was based on bad information, I'm not at all sad that Saddam Hussein is gone. About a month before we went into Iraq, the New Yorker published a lengthy piece about Hussein's sins, especially his mass murder of the Kurds. The article suggested the plausibility that he had chemical weapons. Iraq was a bad place, he was a bad man.

The problem is that the Middle East has many bad places run by bad people, and there seems to be damn little we can do about it.

As much as I dislike DJT, his one good decision was to get us out of Afghanistan, and it now appears that the military and people in the Pentagon dragged their feet, hoping it wouldn't happen. A good example of the craziness that overtook progressives beginning in 2016 was the reaction to Trump's decision. WaPo and the NYT printed opinion pieces and interviews with foreign policy experts, many if not most of them Republican, criticizing Trump and predicting disaster. These were often people that the editors and reporters in both media outlets would have scorned in the past, quoting them but also undercutting their observations by finding other sources that disagreed.

I have to laugh at the conservative comments here that talk about the "deep state." Distrust of the CIA and FBI were always the position the left took. When conservatives like Limbaugh started talking about the dangers of those organizations, I was truly stunned. On the other hand, when my progressive friends started referring to them with tones of respect just because they seemed to be opposed to Trump, I was equally flummoxed. The CIA and FBI do important work--and they have to be watched very, very carefully to keep them from abusing their power.

I'm, at best, lukewarm about Biden, but the idea that anyone could have extracted us from this mess in Afghanistan cleanly is laughable. To the extent that America should have prepared the way for people there who helped us to get out should lead media outlets to criticize the way our withdrawal was handled. And, yes, I'm not yet seeing the amount of hue and cry from them that would surely have resulted had we left when Trump originally wanted us to.

One more takeaway from this: It's driven by culture and by religion. The Taliban are pious, zealous Muslims, driven by their faith. Progressive will still insist on saying Islam is a religion of peace. I don't know if the Taliban is representative of Islam as a whole, but it stands for a large portion of the population--the part that isn't affluent and educated. Progressive who tell us the extremists don't define the faith are the same people who tell us that an anti-abortion activist stands in for every conservative Christian.

In the end, I don't think this region can ever be other than what it now is. Our involvement in the Middle East has been a gigantic screw up, and aside from our support of Israel (despite its occasional sins, a beacon of sanity and democracy there) we should get out and let them all--including the Saudis--fight among themselves until it all ends in a smoldering mess.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"So where would you have held the ceremony of surrender to Al-Qaeda, Robert Cook?

A willfully obtuse and snarky question. We were never under any risk of serious harm from Al Qaeda. They had no aims of world conquest or even of destroying the USA. Their reasons in committing their terrorist acts in this country had to do with their anger at our political and military interference and intrusive presence of US troops in their lands.

Their acts were crimes and should have been responded to as crimes--the planners and perpetrators identified, located, and arrested to be tried under the law--and not as a basis to launch massive invasions that squandered trillions of our dollars and brought injury, ruin and death to millions. Bin Laden knew we would undermine ourselves by the sort of rashly aggressive response with which we responded, and, in so doing, do much more damage to ourselves than the Muslim extremists could ever have achieved.

pacwest म्हणाले...

Doha = contingencies (who knows if it would have worked any better)
Biden = cut and run (and to make sure it was done as stupidly as possible, fighting season, non-incremental, suprise!)
Apples and oranges Chuck

I think that Biden hopes "at least he got us out of there" will be the final thought on the matter once the fecalstorm has died down. Goodbye Taiwan, goodbye Ukraine seems more likely.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"General Butler is right. We should have abolished the army in 1933. Then I could use all that German I learned in high school."

1. General Butler did not advocate abolishing the military. He correctly pointed out the very limited circumstances in which our military should be used. I believe he would have considered our belated entry into WWII an acceptable use of our military.

2. As pointed out above, we were very late to the war, and the British and Russians had done much more work to fight the Nazis and had suffered much greater violence, destruction and deaths of their citizens and soldiers than we ever did. We take more credit for the victory over the Nazis than is warranted, though we were certainly important to the joint effort.

3. We probably could and should have abolished our military, either completely or significantly so, after WWII. We have squandered trillions of dollars to no good ends on unnecessary wars since then, to no good results, and often to bad results, in all the decades since then.

typingtalker म्हणाले...

From Reason Magazine ...

As the humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan continues to brutally unfold, there are not a few "we told you so" lecturers out there. But nobody has earned their stripes more than the office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR). Created by Congress in 2008, SIGAR's job is to serve as independent oversight over the more than $140 billion dollars appropriated for the country's reconstruction efforts.
...
In the preface, Inspector General John F. Sopko gives only the barest mention of successes in Afghanistan, explaining that this new report documents, "how the U.S. government struggled to develop a coherent strategy, understand how long the reconstruction mission would take, ensure its projects were sustainable, staff the mission with trained professionals, account for the challenges posed by insecurity, tailor efforts to the Afghan context, and understand the impact of programs."

"There have been bright spots—such as lower child mortality rates, increases in per capita GDP, and increased literacy rates," he says, adding that "after spending 20 years and $145 billion trying to rebuild Afghanistan, the U.S. government has many lessons it needs to learn."


https://reason.com/2021/08/18/the-afghanistan-lessons-america-refused-to-learn/

Much more at the link.

Drago म्हणाले...

I am almost reluctant to post about this next report, for fear that it will bring far too much joy and perhaps even pleasure to the Althouse bookends, LLR Chuck and Howard, but here goes:

Christian groups with people on the ground in Afghanistan are reporting that as the Taliban go house to house in all cities they control, they are confiscating phones and if they find any Bible apps on that phone they kill the owner of the phone immediately.

Howard would call this "relatively peaceful" religious-based murder.

Inga म्हणाले...

“Inga is a better commentator and I disagree with her on nearly everything. Is she being censored here, or has she just not tried?”

I’m taking the rest of the summer off.

gilbar म्हणाले...

serious question
What was the last war... That we won?

The War on Poverty? no, wait; i'll get it
The War on Drugs! That's it! no, wait; that's not right
OH i KNOW! the War on Terrorism! nope

We DID win WWII, didn't we? Or did the Russians win that TOO?

typingtalker म्हणाले...

An insider's view from Ajmal Ahmady (Governor of the Central Bank of Afghanistan) via twitter ...

"1/The collapse of the Government in Afghanistan this past week was so swift and complete - it was disorienting and difficult to comprehend.

This is how the events seemed to proceed from my perspective as Central Bank Governor."

https://twitter.com/aahmady/status/1427265049668636674

What I haven't seen discussed in the press so far ... "6/Friday - we received a call that given the deteriorating environment, we wouldn’t get any more dollar shipments."

Who was it that said, "Follow the money"?

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"I have to laugh at the conservative comments here that talk about the "deep state." Distrust of the CIA and FBI were always the position the left took. When conservatives like Limbaugh started talking about the dangers of those organizations, I was truly stunned. On the other hand, when my progressive friends started referring to them with tones of respect just because they seemed to be opposed to Trump, I was equally flummoxed. The CIA and FBI do important work--and they have to be watched very, very carefully to keep them from abusing their power."

'Conservatives' take this position because they've seen it play out in real time. Exhibit A is the head of the FBI giving a briefing to a newly-elected president, knowing full-well that the information under discussion was part of a disinformation campaign created by the opposition candidate. And then, having given that briefing, leaking the contents to CNN to make it a story in order to have a special counsel appointed that would cripple that incoming president, hopefully leading to his impeachment and removal from office.

That's the deep state that wasn't watched and is not being watched now. And that's a big fucking deal as Joe would say...and it's not much to laugh about.

अनामित म्हणाले...

I am deeply troubled by the admission that our military has already concluded it cannot stop a Chinese incursion to Taiwan or a Russian invasion of the Baltic states. I have family in Lithuania, I wonder if I should be getting them out now?

Don’t be too hasty. A day fast approaches when it may be preferable to live in a Lithuanian satrapy of Moscow than to remain in the “Land of the Free and Home of the Brave” as it completely falls apart.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"A question for Althouse and Meade- under the new moderation method, are all new comments in a thread at the end of the thread."

Yes.

Bender म्हणाले...

What was the last war... That we won?

The U.S. wins wars. Then throws away the peace.

But as regards the war against Islamism -- Do/did you seriously expect to win a war that has gone on for 1400 years??

No. The West will NEVER "win" the war against the Muslim army. We will need to fight for the rest of our lives and the next 1400 years. Even if we run away again and again, in country after country, still the war will go on BECAUSE THE ENEMY WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT whether we fight back or not.

All these "U.S. out of Afghanistan" people -- MANY of them here, together with Biden and, yes, Trump -- can't seem to get it through their heads that we might not have wanted to continue fighting the Taliban, but the Taliban is sure as hell going to keep fighting us. If not in Afghanistan, then through their allies in Al Qaeda, et al., elsewhere in the world, including right here in the territorial United States.

The Afghan War, 20 years long, did NOT end this past week. It will go on. It just will go on beyond that country.

Joe T. म्हणाले...

"'Conservatives' take this position because they've seen it play out in real time."

A ridiculous assertion. It has almost always been the case that liberals give a pass to Dems who abuse the powers of the FBI and CIA--Kennedy and Johnson, for example--and conservatives do the same with the GOP--Nixon is a good example. The difference is that this time those organizations took an opposing position to the President because he was an outsider and seemed reckless.

In fact, Joe Smith's use of the term 'conservative' is questionable. Trump was in no way a free market guy and he spent loads of money to drive up our deficit even further. His Supreme Court appointments were conservative, but that was McConnell's doing--a long game player if there ever was one--and Lindsay Graham was the architect of the tax breaks, which should have included an agreement from large corporations to bring blue collar jobs back.

Drago म्हणाले...

Unknown: "I have to laugh at the conservative comments here that talk about the "deep state." Distrust of the CIA and FBI were always the position the left took. When conservatives like Limbaugh started talking about the dangers of those organizations, I was truly stunned. On the other hand, when my progressive friends started referring to them with tones of respect just because they seemed to be opposed to Trump, I was equally flummoxed. The CIA and FBI do important work--and they have to be watched very, very carefully to keep them from abusing their power."

Those on the left and/or liberals that kept their principles intact in the age of growing populism on the conservative side (a global phenomenon which Trump stepped into in a fortuitous timing scenario here in the US) are Glenn Greenwald, Michael Tracey, Matt Taibbi, Aaron Mate amongst others.

It makes sense for those on the left to have been wary of these institutions long ago as the FBI/CIA had been targeting left wing organizations since the 1930's and that accelerated tremendously during the Hoover "beware the Black Messiah" COINTELPRO days.

Greenwald started The Intercept precisely to challenge the encroaching deep state and has always been a fan of what Assange and Snowden exposed.

Trump's runs accelerated the "learning process" amongst today's conservatives which also coincided with the absolute collapse, due to unprecedented corruption and incompetence, of this nations self-anointed "elites" who have brought about the justified "Death of Expertise".

All that is left on the republican/conservative side is about 1 to 3% of the republican base who will give deference to these obviously compromised corruptocrats who have not only been selling out the working man and woman for 80 years but also now are happy to sell out the American experiment itself to their ChiCom and EU benefactors. And that's both parties.

What the establishment fears the most is already well under way: a realignment of parties where the republican party becomes the combination of the larger working class and populist segments joined with principled liberals/leftists (who don't agree at all on everything) but do agree on what is most essential.

That's why they keep attacking Trump. Imperfect as he is he is still the most dangerous "vessel" for this potential combination. And that's why they are so scared of DeSantis. A potentially more effective working class/populist leader who can do the Trump stuff when he wishes but doesn't share the same flaws.

It's why so many on the populist right resonated with Tulsi Gabbard even though on many social issues there was zero agreement.

Original Mike म्हणाले...

My God…

"Stuart Ramsey reported for Sky News, “A senior officer told me they had no choice because the situation was out of control, but said the blockade will live with some of his soldiers for the rest of their lives. ‘It was terrible, women were throwing their babies over the razor wire, asking the soldiers to take them, some got caught in the wire,’ he told me. ‘I’m worried for my men, I’m counselling some, everyone cried last night.’”"

effinayright म्हणाले...

"Thoroughly Modern Milley" shouldn't just resign for consigning ten thousand Americans to likely abuse or slaughter by the Taliban.

He should be stripped of rank, cashiered, and then fall on his sword like the Roman generals did whenever they fucked up unforgivably.

Browndog म्हणाले...

I see the band is back together-

Woo-Hoo.

In the meantime, debates won or lost, clever quips, and endless bleating of what is known and obvious will not save you from tomorrow. You're still fighting the enemy of yesteryear.

It's kinda cute how many think the same activism of the '60's will change the course of America now that the activists of the 60's are now in charge.

effinayright म्हणाले...

2. As pointed out above, we were very late to the war, and the British and Russians had done much more work to fight the Nazis and had suffered much greater violence, destruction and deaths of their citizens and soldiers than we ever did. We take more credit for the victory over the Nazis than is warranted, though we were certainly important to the joint effort.
************

Are you freaking serious?

You completely forget that Hitler declared war on US. Many Americans did not want to get involved in the European war. At the time when we had a very small army. But I suspect even your anti-war general would have been willing to defend against the Nazis.

Every German general knew that the war was lost once the US---with its huge population and industrial might, all beyond the reach of German military power other than for its U-boats---mobilized to defend itself. Yamamoto knew that as well.

You further forget that Britain was fighting an entirely DEFENSIVE war, after the Dunkirk debacle, when it retreated back across the Channel. They were fearing an invasion, remember? And wanna 'splain to us how their ineffective nighttime bombing raids did ANYTHING to destroy the Nazi's Fortress Europe? Wanna tell us what British fighters could go all the way to Berlin to protect our bombers on their daytime thousand-plane raids?

Only the USA's limitless supply of war materiel and men, its unparalleled logistics and its much more aggressive tactics, made the German cause hopeless. It wasn't Brits or the French who spread across Western Europe to push the Nazis back, it was mostly Americans.


And yes, the Russians eventually broke the Wehrmacht's back on the Eastern front. But they did it with Soviet indifference to human losses, as that's all they *could* do.

30 million Russians died; 450,000 Brits did; we lost 407,000 in both theatres of war.

You sound disappointed that more Americans didn't die.

Will you tell us next that we didn't really win against Japan as well?






Interested Bystander म्हणाले...

I agree with the "retired officer" 100%. Cut the intelligence and Dept. of "Justice" 80%. Completely defund the FBI. They need to be disbanded so we can start with a clean slate and new laws limiting their reach. Take a hard look at military funding. If it doesn't have something to do with the threat from China, Russia or Islamic terrorism, cut it.

MountainMan म्हणाले...

An astonishing meeting of the UK Parliament today on the Afghan crisis. Both the Commons and Lords crowded into the Commons chamber for its first normal meeting in over a year. The entire day was spent on the Afghan crisis, with the MPs and peers condemning the dishonor Biden and his withdrawal and the abandonment of the Afghan army. Not sure if you can get to the full article as it is behind a paywall. There is a video lasting over 7 hours embedded in the article. Perhaps there is a condensed version on YouTube.

Francisco D म्हणाले...

Let's see how long this crew keeps this up.

Should be fun.


After our enforced vacation from the Althouse Debate Club, I was able to live my life with minimal anger and frustration. Now, what I thought was fun is not amusing at all. The intellectually dishonest lefties who inhabit this site simply want to stifle debate. I wish they would go away so that people with honest disagreements could have a dialogue.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Mountain Man--

So much Joe Biden "competence" to absorb--and he has disappeared like Punxsutawney Phil, looking for a good night's sleep. Joe's falling over like a rotten tree was predictable. What is so surprising is that the team around Biden is so weak. I won't be surprised if Milley falls on his sword. He really has disgraced the uniform. Sec. Austin is a model of a man who has been over-promoted. We have a couple of Lieutenant Colonels who have been stuffed into four-star uniforms. The clothes don't fit.

The debate in the UK Parliament was astonishing. MPs who had served in the military--and there are many--pulled no punches. And, of course, there are many UK nationals stuck in Afghanistan with no clear road out.

Welcome to Bidenville. It is going to get worse. But Joe has Giggles and Nancy "Freezers" Pelosi behind him, so he probably will stick around as long as he is breathing.

Joe T. म्हणाले...

"'Conservatives' take this position because they've seen it play out in real time."

A ridiculous assertion. It has almost always been the case that liberals give a pass to Dems who abuse the powers of the FBI and CIA--Kennedy and Johnson, for example--and conservative do the same with the GOP--Nixon is a good example. The difference is that this time those organizations took an opposing position to the President because he was an outsider and seemed reckless.

In fact, Joe Smith's use of the term 'conservative' is questionable. Trump was in no way a free market guy and he spent loads of money to drive up our deficit even further. His Supreme Court appointments were conservative, but that was McConnell's doing--a long game player if there ever was one--and Lindsay Graham was the architect of the tax breaks, which should have included an agreement from large corporations to bring blue collar jobs back.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"You sound disappointed that more Americans didn't die."

I suggest you read what the words say to avoid completely misunderstanding the point.

My meaning is clear, and no other meaning is implied, to wit: the US was certainly an important member of the allies fighting against Hitler, but we were a part of it. We were not the winners of WWII, we were not the only factor that won victory: it was the result of the combined armies and resources of all the allied nations, contrary to the general view of Americans that it was Uncle Sam against Adolf in a mano a mano> caged death match.

As for victory over Japan, there are those who argue it was not our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that compelled the Japanese to surrender, but their learning that the Russians had agreed to join the war against them.

And, here.

Drago म्हणाले...

Unknown: "A ridiculous assertion. It has almost always been the case that liberals give a pass to Dems who abuse the powers of the FBI and CIA--Kennedy and Johnson, for example--and conservative do the same with the GOP--Nixon is a good example. The difference is that this time those organizations took an opposing position to the President because he was an outsider and seemed reckless."

I think I see where you are coming from and I should have been more clear about which subsets of the generalized groups I was referencing.

On the other hand, you too are falling prey to categorizations with presumed group outlooks that are no longer operative.

So, let me try again with a succinct statement that is better formulated:

There is a rapidly growing % of our society that does not trust our institutions and is distrustful of supposed govt/institutional "expertise" and that group now contains the lions share of the more populist conservative base voters which is creating, in a very fast and fluid way, interesting new political coalitions and political possibilities.

Drago म्हणाले...


Unknown: "My meaning is clear, and no other meaning is implied, to wit: the US was certainly an important member of the allies fighting against Hitler, but we were a part of it. We were not the winners of WWII, we were not the only factor that won victory: it was the result of the combined armies and resources of all the allied nations, contrary to the general view of Americans that it was Uncle Sam against Adolf in a mano a mano> caged death match."

Not enough time to fully respond to this but bottom line, without America in WW2 Europe is lost, the best the russkis can hope for is stalemate...until the Germans develop nukes, and there will always be historical revisionists who will want to downplay America's contributions to the world as a cultural/political ploy.

And yes I read that analysis of the supposed "importance" of the Soviets declaring war on Japan....at the very end.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

As for victory over Japan, there are those who argue it was not our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that compelled the Japanese to surrender, but their learning that the Russians had agreed to join the war against them.

There are those who argue that the earth is flat, but that is not the way to bet.

Kristo Miettinen म्हणाले...

I submit for your consideration that what happened in Afghanistan was not a bungled attempt at withdrawal, nor a military failure; it was a bungled attempt at remaining, and a diplomatic failure.

Consider two otherwise incomprehensible facts, namely, that we pulled out of Bagram before we pulled out of Kabul, and that in the week prior to Kabul falling we had somewhere around 15,000 Americans in Kabul (much more than our military force in country for a long time). Both of these facts indicate that we never intended to pull out of Kabul, we only intended a handover from our military to our bloated embassy with its dependent NGOs, contractors, and other levers of influence.

When Biden promised the world that “America is back”, one of the clarifications he offered about what that means is a return to diplomacy-based foreign policy. That explains, to my satisfaction, what happened in Afghanistan. We maintained the largest embassy staff ever seen anywhere (50% larger than Baghdad at its peak) because we anticipated that there would be a lot of diplomatic work for us to do – this was to be the career-making Super Bowl of diplomacy, and a generation of State Department staff would earn their spurs negotiating a power-sharing fusion government with the Taliban. That is what was botched.

Kristo Miettinen

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"There are those who argue that the earth is flat, but that is not the way to bet.

Not a substantive answer.

"And yes I read that analysis of the supposed 'importance' of the Soviets declaring war on Japan....at the very end."

I provided a link to a another paper analyzing the Soviet influence on the outcome of the Pacific War.

There are others who present similar analyses.

"...there will always be historical revisionists who will want to downplay America's contributions to the world as a cultural/political ploy."


It's not a matter of denigrating the US's "contribution to the world," it's a matter of trying to accurately assess and describe our contribution to the world, positive and negative, without slighting the contributions of other nations or ignoring the damage we have done. There will always be home-team boosters (in every nation) who want to overstate their nation's contributions to the world as a cultural/political ploy, and the US is no slouch in tooting its own horn while mixing out the discordant notes that might be displeasing.

Drago म्हणाले...

Unknown: "There will always be home-team boosters (in every nation) who want to overstate their nation's contributions to the world as a cultural/political ploy, and the US is no slouch in tooting its own horn while mixing out the discordant notes that might be displeasing."

There will also always be home-team de-boosters (in every nation but particularly the US) who want to vastly understate or completely negate our nation's contributions to the world as a cultural/political weapon, and these types are certainly not slouches in denigrating America while mixing out the discordant notes thus yielding pleasing "historical melodies" to likeminded folks.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

Hmmm...I'm surprised to see that my previous comments were marked as by "Unknown." I thought I was logged into my account. I'm surprised my comments were allowed through.

Anyway, it's me.

"There will also always be home-team de-boosters (in every nation but particularly the US) who want to vastly understate or completely negate our nation's contributions to the world as a cultural/political weapon, and these types are certainly not slouches in denigrating America while mixing out the discordant notes thus yielding pleasing "historical melodies" to likeminded folks."

Pretty flabby.

I would say the USA record of bad acts, past and present, is far under-reported domestically and largely obscure to most Americans. The USA boosters are winning the information wars by a far length.

Drago म्हणाले...

Robert Cook: "Pretty flabby."

Take a look in the mirror laddie.

Robert Cook: "I would say the USA record of bad acts, past and present, is far under-reported domestically and largely obscure to most Americans. The USA boosters are winning the information wars by a far length."

We could probably find some degree of agreement on that overall thought but you would have to be specific about which bad acts you believe are underreported.

Part of the problem is that given the range and degree of these bad acts there are so many hours in a day so you'd have to figure out which are the most critical to make known to the majority of the citizenry.

However, in this particular thread, I am more than happy to speak about the unseemly failure of our establishment in general and the failure of our military "executive class" specifically.