But how about this Yoshiro Mori character?! When I was growing up, back in the 1950s and 60s, it was stock repartee to say that women talk too much. But it's 2021! You don't just say women talk too much, let alone stake out the opinion that it's annoying! Ha ha ha.
Speaking of talking too much — Mori really hurt himself. Don't make the same mistake! Don't be saying that women are making your meetings soooo much longer. Just sit there and put up with it. The consequences of complaining are even more annoying than the time that ticks by as you see your life running out — irretrievably! — like sand in the hourglass.
ADDED: Commenters over at WaPo are quick to present the research:
It is a widely held belief that women talk more than men; but experimental evidence has suggested that this belief is mistaken. The present study investigated whether listener bias contributes to this mistake. Dialogues were recorded in mixed-sex and single-sex versions, and male and female listeners judged the proportions of talk contributed to the dialogues by each participant. Female contributions to mixed-sex dialogues were rated as greater than male contributions by both male and female listeners. Female contributions were more likely to be overestimated when they were speaking a dialogue part perceived as probably female than when they were speaking a dialogue part perceived as probably male. It is suggested that the misestimates are due to a complex of factors that may involve both perceptual effects such as misjudgment of rates of speech and sociological effects such as attitudes to social roles and perception of power relations.
That study was all the way back in 1990. Who knows how behavior and perception have changed since then? And the study doesn't seem to look into how people value efficiency versus relationships and who's contributing versus who's wasting time. If everyone worries that they will be judged negatively if they don't sit still, maintain a pleasant demeanor, and let the women be heard, then they are creating new distortions in perception and new conditions for changes in behavior.
पोस्ट्स
१५८ टिप्पण्या:
I didn’t know the olympics was still a thing. I guess talking too much gave it a promo.
Women are big on leaving things unsaid, in other words. A paradox.
The meeting complaint from women in all-women meetings is that they long for a male voice.
Needless to say, I'm impressed with Matt Bonesteel's moniker. I'd love to do an Ancestry research on his family name and it's origin. I'm sure its legendary.
I've been told I write too much. I agree. But I would never tell a woman she talks too much. I just leave the conversation, or the room. If in a meeting I would politely tell them it's my damn jimmy legs and I have to get up to move around now, and I'd 'jimmy' out the door. Jimmy Legs
It’s early and my coffee might not have kicked in yet but:
“... male and female listeners judged the proportions of talk contributed to the dialogues by each participant”
This is science? “Judged”?
Here’s an idea — count the words and length of time using AI. There’s no reason to have anyone “judge” anything when you can, you know, count it.
Did that "study" try to break down the talk to on-point thoughts that advanced the interests of the group vs. unnecessary chatter?
I'm in a predominantly female field, have almost always had female bosses, and am often the only male in the room at meetings, so if I say women do most of the talking, well, of course they do. And most of those women are fully capable and get to the point.
But some drone on long after they've run out of things to say and seem to trail off and then come back, as though they are struggling not to surrender the floor once they have it. It can be very frustrating trying to be respectful and wait for them to decide they are done.
Most women don't do that, but when someone does, that someone is always a woman. I have never met a man who struggled so hard to not stop talking once he got going.
Speaking the truth today always gets you in trouble. But let's do it, anyway.
How about they make long-distance talking an Olympic sport?
@Jeff Brokaw:There’s no reason to have anyone “judge” anything when you can, you know, count it.
They did count the time talking. That's how they knew that people "judged" that women were talking longer than men even when they were not. That was the point of the investigation, the bias of the listeners.
Even women think women talk more than men, no? Every woman I know would probably roll their eyes and say “of course!”
Are they being sexist too?
Companies with lots of meetings wind up being run by people who like meetings.
If you're stuck in a woman-dominated meeting, you can always pass the time by undressing them with your eyes.
I agree. I hate complainers. Very unmasculine. Whenever women are talking too much I find "are you finished?" works super well at shutting down the convo. It's like a bolt from the blue. They're not sure they heard what they just heard. While they're processing that information they stop talking and things can go on another direction. It does become less effective the more you use it, and I recommend it only be used in public forums where the number of participants can amplify the effect.
Gresham lectures with women lecturers make you clothe them with your eyes. Several down-insulted coats eventually.
It's fairly inconsiderate of the men to have an unattractive woman leading the thing.
Men and Women are different. Or they are not.
Be careful of which side of that equation you agree with.
@Gabriel - thanks, point taken. Not enough coffee. Plus relying on the stub instead of clicking the link. Oh well.
Biden All-Female Communications Team Won't Tell Nation What's Wrong, Nation Should Already Know
WASHINGTON, D.C.—Biden's transition team has announced they will be appointing an all-female communications team. According to sources, the team will not tell the nation what's wrong, since the nation should already know.
"It's fine. Everything's fine. Nothing's wrong, OK!?" said Jen Psaki in her first press conference as a part of Biden's team. "Why would you think I'm not fine? Ugh... if you have to ask, I'm not going to tell you."
“Matt Bonesteel”: a new series about a civil war era surgeon who moonlights as a private eye.
Women in a lecture are using a male model of the world:
The lecturer and the audience join in affirming a single proposition. They join in affirming that organized talking can reflect, express, delineate, protray - if not come to grips with - the real world, and that, finally, there is a real, structured, somewhat unitary world out there to comprehend. (After all, that's what distinguishes lectures from stints at the podium openly designed as entertainments.) And here, surely, we have the lecturer's real contract. Whatever his substantive domain, whatever his school of thought, and whatever his inclination to piety or impiety, he signs the same agreement and he serves the same cause: to protect us from the wind, to stand up and seriously project the assumption that through lecturing, a meaningful picture of some part of the world can be conveyed, and that the talker can have access to a picture worth conveying.
It is in this sense that every lecturer, merely by presuming to lecture before an audience, is a functionary of the cognitive establishment, actively suporting the same position: I repeat, that there is structure to the world, that this structure can be perceived and reported, and therefore, that speaking before an audience and listening to a speaker are reasonable things to be doing, and incidentally, of course, that the auspices of the occasion had warrant for making the whole thing possible.
- Erving Goffman, _Forms of Talk_, "The Lecture", p.194-195.
Another sexist tradition in Japan is that pregnancies last ten months.
! When I was growing up, back in the 1950s and 60s, it was stock repartee to say that women talk too much. But it's 2021!
True then, still true today. What you might call a timeless truth. And ever shall it be so.
Yoshiro Mori's got a pair on him, doesn't he?
Don't know about meetings anymore but all the compulsive talkers I've known have been men.
And boy, don't get them started...
quick to present the research:
IOW, it seems like women talk more, or talk longer, because they're more boring than men. But don't worry, someone else will have different research results.
"Whenever women are talking too much I find "are you finished?" works super well at shutting down the convo.
I often interjected "help me I'm talking and I can't shut up" for anyone, man or woman, who had kept droning on when his/her last relevant thought had been communicated some time before.
There should be a special place in hell for people who always feel they *must* say something no matter how unnecessary.
What happens when women talk too much in a Zoom meeting?
Toobin.
I am Laslo.
You don't just say women talk too much, let alone stake out the opinion that it's annoying!
Why not? The first part is true...women talk too much. Especially in business settings when you need to be focused on the topic at hand. I KNOW!!! I worked in women dominated situations early in my career and later in men dominated settings. Not only did some of the women talk too much, creating time wasting diversions...they were supremely annoying.
People can dispute whether it is factual that women talk too much or not.
HOWEVER.....The second part is his OPINION. Are we not allowed anymore to express our opinions. Or are we to keep silent, bite our tongues and bow to the self anointed speech police?
George Orwell didn't write fiction..He was prophetic.
"It is suggested that the misestimates are due to a complex of factors that may involve both perceptual effects such as misjudgment of rates of speech and sociological effects such as attitudes to social roles and perception of power relations."
Nah, I suggest that from my experience it is not that women talk too much or more than men it is that what they say isn't relevant or interesting, so it seems like they are talking more. And I'm only suggesting this rather than stating it because, you know, it's 2021 and c'mon man. I will also note that I never say this to women in meetings, as our host suggests I either suffer in silence or do as Temujin does and make up an excuse to leave.
"Here’s an idea — count the words and length of time using AI. There’s no reason to have anyone “judge” anything when you can, you know, count it."
But they weren't studying who talked more! They were studying the *perception* of who talks more — the distortion. The actual length that females and males talked was controlled in the study. What they wanted to see was how people thought about what happened, that is whether there is sexism in the perception, and they found it.
I've only read the abstract, but I'd like to know more about what the females said versus the males. Verbose and unhelpful talking is *properly* judged to be overlong even when it takes up no more time than a pithy and highly useful contribution.
Remember all those stories about how women are more verbal, and have advantages over men because of it?
And how men need to communicate more in relationships?
Weird.
And this seems appropriate:
"You start a conversation, you can't even finish it
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?"
Men appreciate silence and women feel compelled to fill that silence with every thought that crosses their minds.
Simple solution: have fewer meetings.
"What happens when women talk too much in a Zoom meeting?/Toobin."
That is actually something I thought when I was writing the post.
If you have to just endure boring chatty talking, you have to have some way to keep calm and not make the conversation any worse than it already is. Elongate something other than the conversation.
Oh, hell! I finally found something in The Babylon Bee really funny!
I have nothing to say.
Thanks, Wince.
tim maguire said... Did that "study" try to break down the talk to on-point thoughts that advanced the interests of the group vs. unnecessary chatter?
Exactly.
Verbose and unhelpful talking is *properly* judged to be overlong even when it takes up no more time than a pithy and highly useful contribution.
Men as well as women can be guilty of this verbose and unhelpful talking. In my experience, in women dominated businesses and later men centered... it is almost always women (not all but many women) who wasted our time.
Trying to lead a meeting full of women is like herding cats.
Most meetings are colossal time wasters, anyway. My husband proposed that all meetings should be held standing up.
It's only ok to say men interrupt, steal your ideas, and mansplain. No saying anything bad about women!!
Anecdotal evidence: bfore retiring as a HS teacher one of my duties was to stand with the principal in the foyer as the kids came into school- good duty; got to say hi to the lads and lassies as they came to school, got to chat with our principal, a friend who I’d worked with for 25 years. I noticed that when males came up to ask him something the conversion would go something like:
“Mike, can I do so and so?”
“ Yes”.
“Thanks, see ya”
However when females came up:
“Mike, can I do so and so?”
“ Yes”. “
“ because you see I need to do this because ....blah blah blah ...
Not a scientific survey, not true 100% of the time, and observed by someone who believes women talk more than men, but there you go.
And rhhardin gets the comment of the thread:
“Women are big on leaving things unsaid, in other words. A paradox”
And:
“Biden All-Female Communications Team Won't Tell Nation What's Wrong, Nation Should Already Know”
Most of the trouble I’ve gotten into over 35 years of marriage has come from not already knowing.
Ann Althouse said...I've only read the abstract, but I'd like to know more about what the females said versus the males. Verbose and unhelpful talking is *properly* judged to be overlong even when it takes up no more time than a pithy and highly useful contribution.
I bet that's a factor--only a few people at the meeting talk too much, but those few people are always women. What people take away from it is that women were talking too much. All women get blamed for it. Even by other women.
Gender is a construct.
But for the knuckle-draggers still viewing humans old school style, check out the (suspected) inee/outee distribution of reporters at Psaki time yesterday.
And the ASL folk in the lower left box seemed to be all men. I saw a series of 3 rotating through before settling on a an "African American" dude with a pony tail for most of it. Kinda weird to see them just exit frame, leaving it empty briefly. They should learn from Louie Farrakhan's security teams that rotate in/out like chambers in a revolver. I still find the exaggerated facial expressions a bit odd when paired with boring discussions.
An enterprising radio host should..snatch..up the soundbite of Jen offering to buy an outee a drink. Would make a great "drop" when discussing the new civilized tone in those pre-screened sessions.
I have found that women can't keep talking if you put something in their mouths.
THEOLDMAN
I'm a chef and I was talking about food, what did you think I was talking about?
At AA meetings, we hear "now I'm just rambling, so I'll shut up."
THEOLDMAN
Works for me
However when females came up:
“Mike, can I do so and so?”
“ Yes”. “
“ because you see I need to do this because ....blah blah blah ...
I've noticed this a lot in old people of both sexes. Rather than just ask the waitress if they can get X but hold the Y. It's a long explantion to someone who needs to move to other customers about how they can't eat Y anymore.
Of course every day I move closer & closer to coot-hood myself..
An individual study might be powerful evidence if carefully designed and carried out and with a large data set. A single study that cherry picks data is garbage.
This one study from 1990 might be great, or it might be terrible. But which was it, and was it the only one in the last 30 years? Anyone citing it to prove a point, who hasn't reviewed the literature, is just cherry-picking a study that supports what they want to say.
And since so many of them involve a few dozen college students for extra credit, you can find a published study that shows practically anything.
Most research in soft sciences (psychology and sociology mainly) cannot be replicated. So there’s that.
Besides, as Althouse notes at 7:36, the content snd density of what we say, and the way we put words, thoughts and phrases together, leads to perceptions in others about whether we are talking “too much” or not. In fact those are probably far more important than actual word count amd elapsed time.
Unless the study figured that into the equation, it’s not all that revealing of anything useful.
"Elongate something other than the conversation."
Well-played.
I am Laslo.
My bad. ASL dudes in lower right.
Had to circle back and correct that.
Just sit there and put up with it. The consequences of complaining are even more annoying than the time that ticks by as you see your life running out — irretrievably! — like sand in the hourglass.
Like the Buddha said: "Life is suffering” Except he said you would never run out of time, too.
unhelpful talking is *properly* judged to be overlong even when it takes up no more time than a pithy and highly useful contribution.
A: They are never going to make such a judgement, and if they did judge that the female contribution was of the “pick a little, talk a little” variety, it would never get published, even back in the ‘90s. At least that is my hypothesis which I believe is widely shared.
B: This is why rhhardin is a way better commenter than I am.
Dunno. In every conservation I participate in, everyone else does all the talking and I am forced to listen. Nothing to do with gender.
Remember all those stories about how women are more verbal, and have advantages over men because of it?
And how men need to communicate more in relationships?
Tomorrow at noon, all men will start talking more about their relationships.
And by 12:05, all women will be sorry.
Women may talk a lot, but the real bores, the ones who can produce tears of boredom (it’s a thing) are almost invariably men.
Blogger tim maguire said...
...
But some drone on long after they've run out of things to say and seem to trail off and then come back, as though they are struggling not to surrender the floor once they have it. It can be very frustrating trying to be respectful and wait for them to decide they are done.
Most women don't do that, but when someone does, that someone is always a woman.
2/4/21, 6:57 AM
This is exactly my professional experience.
tim maguire: "Most women don't do that, but when someone does, that someone is always a woman. I have never met a man who struggled so hard to not stop talking once he got going.
Heh :) You need to come to one of our corporate meetings! My firm is the opposite (predominantly male) and the two biggest talkers happen both to be men! But then, to your astute point, that was statistically more likely.
I think it's a nervous tic. One of the power talkers is a technical guy. He knows his stuff, but thinks he's the only one capable of understanding technical issues (sadly, the victims of his monologues often know more than he does about a particular issue). He literally goes on and on and on, long past the point where the big light bulb went on for most of us. At least he knows he's doing it - after repeating the same points over and over and oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooover again, he will often catch himself and say, "Gosh, I am talking past the close again".
One day whilst he was holding forth, someone on the call actually fell asleep and started snoring :p Good times.
The other nonstop talker is a senior exec. Someone pulls his See-and-Say string, and he literally *cannot* shut up and let someone else get a word in edgewise. He's a high-functioning introvert who's on the Asperger's spectrum, and can't sense when his audience is ready to gnaw off a limb to get away. Nice enough guy, but don't ever ask him a random question in the hallway or you may never be seen again :p
Re: women talking more at work, my experience has been that men talk more at work and less in social settings than women. People's perceptions (especially men's perceptions about how long a woman has been talking) may well be influenced by the difference in communication styles.
Women often present history or context/background info first, building up to the point. Men often present the bottom line first, then - maybe - provide context and background info, or worse just repeat the point over and over as though mere repetition (or saying the same thing, only with more conviction) establishes the correctness of whatever they're advocating.
Whoever said we're from different planets wasn't kidding :p
PET study from 20 years ago: Women's brains light up similar to drug use at the sound of their own voice. I heard it reported on NPR, so you know it's reliable.
Oh so so so true. The other day I attended a meeting for a parish ministry. Used to be run by a guy, who got us in an out in about 1/2 hour...handed out information, exhorted us to take it home and read it thoroughly etc etc...the women now in charge ran the meeting out to 2 hours...going through the printed information line by line, then pausing for questions...and since the attendees were all women, loads of them felt compelled to raise their hands and "share their experience." OMG. I thank God after each such experience that Catholics have remained faithful to the all-male priesthood. The minute we change that, men will no longer darken the door, and who could blame them.
Tomorrow at noon, all men will start talking more about their relationships. And by 12:05, all women will be sorry.
OMG... that made my day. Truer words...
No woman must be made to feel bad about, or responsible for, anything, ever.
"It's only ok to say men interrupt, steal your ideas, and mansplain. No saying anything bad about women!!”
Speaking of stealing ideas, I keep seeing this trailer for a show about Madame Curie that claims that she envisioned nuclear power and punters like Einstein who came up wth E=MC^2 were just stealing her ideas, is the logical inference.
mockturtle said...
Most meetings are colossal time wasters, anyway. My husband proposed that all meetings should be held standing up.
my former supervisor, used to have a sign on the wall of her office that said:
Daily Productivity Meetings Will Continue; Until The Cause Of Our Lack Productivity Is Determined
Seems like the problem isn't people talking too much...
It's people not stopping, once they've said all they have to say
"You don't just say women talk too much, let alone stake out the opinion that it's annoying! Ha ha ha."
Whoa. Strong Orientalism vibe here. You don't, unless you are Japanese. You do respect other cultures, don't you?
"Mori really hurt himself."
Maybe. But at least he gets people to think about the Olympics.
"Don't make the same mistake!"
Good advice. Honesty hurts.
"Just sit there and put up with it."
We know, we know. Do we have to like it, too?
But when a prominent man hurts himself by stating his honest opinion about women, and men are told to sit there and put up with it, can we all agree that the patriarchy is over and done?
---There should be a special place in hell for people who always feel they *must* say something no matter how unnecessary.
How frustrating to discover there is -- the house next door.
OK, having read his entire comment now, it's somewhat amusing that a man is suggesting "regulating" speaking time at meetings (but apparently, only for women).
That's what the meeting moderator is for. There are ways to shut someone down in a well-run meeting without bringing identity politics into the mix. I've had to do that (so I could talk... just kidding :p), and it's not rocket science. Or you could just make a rule that *no one* in a meeting can talk for more than X minutes.
Sheesh :p
This is similar to run-on comments. It is not gender-specific.
Longest comment: Cassandra
Subject: blah blah blah men talk too much blah blah blah
I work for a male dominated engineering firm. I have difficulty getting anyone on the technical side to speak up in meetings -- the verbosity comes from folks on the business side.
It's not uncommon though for everyone to have weighed in on a subject except for the lone woman in the meeting. I always ask, "how do you feel about this Ann" to draw them out, but at my company, I get the feeling that women think meetings are generally a waste of time.
Tim in vermont @ 8:05 yes that is definitely true — lots of guys are guilty of talking far FAR too much about themselves and their lives, drives me nuts. SO self-absorbed. It’s boring and annoying.
In my job I talk to lots of people and knowing when to shut up and let them contribute is a big deal, an important skill ... I find this very easy because I am just not someone who likes to hear themselves talk and go on and on. Listening comes naturally for me.
In a lengthy address delivered without notes, Dr Summers offered three explanations for the shortage of women in senior posts in science and engineering, starting with their reluctance to work long hours because of childcare responsibilities.
He went on to argue that boys outperform girls on high school science and maths scores because of genetic difference. "Research in behavioural genetics is showing that things people previously attributed to socialisation weren't due to socialisation after all," he told the Boston Globe yesterday.. - The Guardian
Lost his job. We are now in the era of “The truth hurts... those who speak it."
Well we know now that she asked simply and he responded without expression. That's Hemingway level shit right there.
American women complain that they are far more likely to be judged on their voices and personalities than men and, as a result, are less likely to speak in business contexts. That is so sad! Consider Kamala Harris for example. Jenna Ellis, a senior legal advisor for the Trump campaign, compared Ms. Harris' to Marge Simpson. Ms. Harris does sound like Marge Simpson, a typical suburban mom and a Karen. Marge Simpson responded that she would "probably vote for the Democrats."
I get the feeling that women think meetings are generally a waste of time.
After 20 years in corporate consulting, I came to the conclusion that the primary purpose of meetings is to diffuse responsibility for bad or risky decisions. So no. They are not a waste of time for bureaucrats who avoid accountability.
This study does not try to prove if women actually talk more. They played recordings of plays and the test subjects said the women were talking longer when the were not. So, when listening to recordings of plays people are biased in thinking women talk longer, that is the only conclusion you can draw. The study is silent on whether women talk more at meetings.
Women don’t talk more, it just seems like it...
Shorter thread title: rhardin softball
Curious George said...Longest comment: Cassandra
Subject: blah blah blah men talk too much blah blah blah
I'm biased here since she was mostly responding to me--I said the "never use 10 words when 100 will do" phenomenon is a female thing and she cited two men who do it--one self-aware and the other not.
I thought it was interesting.
I speak more than anyone in a conversation, by far, so any conversation with me in it is going to look male-dominated when it might be just me. The next comment in a discussion should always be by the person who has the most important thing to say, and that is usually me. Among extremely intelligent, highly learned, or specialist groups my contributions go way down. They know more than I do. This also changes somewhat in professional situations, as I am very focused on getting the best information out of the group (even when I am not the leader) and others will have more important information than mine because of their specialty. Like Tim Maguire, I work in a nearly-all female environment, including more than half of team leaders and upper management. I have a similar impression to his about content.
All that as background for the following: the experimenters in the research worked hard to close doors where biasing data might leak in and I think got most of it. But they did not study much about the content, the type of speech each member produced. Were the sentences short interjections of support or agreement, which can be important in the flow of discussion without taking up much space? Were the comments on-topic, or if slightly off-topic, directed to important new angles that would have to be addressed eventually? Are personal examples being shared, and are they actually helpful? Are some interactions (when viewed in retrospect) clearly trying to change the group dynamics, such as harmonising the discussion, taking over leadership or undermining another, or reducing tension with humor?
As all this is just as important than the amount of time someone is speaking, the research only lays some groundwork. Their impressions about whether gender roles play a part is premature. Though I'm sure it's fun. That's why people do such research, usually, not to actually get answers, but to have interesting things to talk about.
I always ask, "how do you feel about this Ann" to draw them out,
Someone once asked me in a meeting 'how I feel about' something. I responded, "Not sure how I feel about it but here's what I think.
>>I've noticed this a lot in old people of both sexes. Rather than just ask the waitress if they can get X but hold the Y. It's a long explanation to someone who needs to move to other customers about how they can't eat Y anymore.
I grew up as a young child in a very old family. Dad was 51 when I was born, and he was the youngest of a family of 9. So all of my aunts and uncles were old folks.
It was a shock to me to meet my friends parents and relatives. They talked about sports, and current events, and their jobs.
I had internalized that grownups sat around and talked about their illnesses, their various pains and aches, and their doctors all the time!
I have resolved, as I get older, to never do that. I will answer "How are you?" with "Fine", even if I'm in the ICU having a heart attack. :)
Yap yap yap.
In other news, James Gorden, a certified LEGEND in Georgia High School baseball officiating passed this morning. He deserves a word of acknowledgment everywhere. Just a great man.
Josephbleau said... This study does not try to prove if women actually talk more. They played recordings of plays and the test subjects said the women were talking longer when the were not. So, when listening to recordings of plays people are biased in thinking women talk longer, that is the only conclusion you can draw.
Not the only conclusion. IMO...it is that the offending women don't get to the point and talk in circles, ramble on with extraneous thoughts not pertinent to the topic at hand.
It may not BE longer...it just seems that way.
Also, Cassandra's point about speaking styles is important. While there are global and sequential speakers among both males and females, males do tend more often to be global, telling you the main point first and then filling it in. Females are more likely to be sequential, telling you how the information was arrived at before getting to a summary statement. Sequential speakers do not much mind global speakers and do not get frustrated with them on that basis alone. Global speakers do very much mind sequential speaking however, and find the lead up frustrating to listen to.
Husbands are known to be particularly impatient about sequential information-sharing, wanting to interject "I don't care about the lunch. did you get the job?" Women are more comfortable hearing the lunch as part of the story, to enter into the experience of the person telling it more fully.
When a man talks too much, the girl says: "You had me at hello"
I'm surprised Mr. Misogyny Romcom didn't bring up this paradoxical snippet that proves the more general rule.
May as well interject and say "so, when are you going to get to the sammich making?"
I would say it's a stereotype. We all observe things that reinforce a stereotype, but of course doesn't mean it's generally true. The problems occur when the object of the stereotype is overly sensitive to it. Now we have a convenient, and simple, weapon.
But how about this Yoshiro Mori character?! When I was growing up, back in the 1950s and 60s, it was stock repartee to say that women talk too much. But it's 2021! You don't just say women talk too much, let alone stake out the opinion that it's annoying!
Well, this "character" is a man born in 1937, meaning he was already an adult in the late 1950s. And he's Japanese, and the stereotype is that the Japanese are more sexist than Americans.
Most of the trouble I’ve gotten into over 35 years of marriage has come from not already knowing.
Mine comes from having a "tone."
Sandwiches? Why can't American women cook? Sandwiches is food prep, not cooking.
Howard said...When a man talks too much, the girl says: "You had me at hello"
As head writer for Jerry Maguire, Cameron Crowe is the hero of this story.
So, if I design an experiment that takes men and women of the same height, and asks a group of people to say which person is taller when they are viewed together and even though they are the same height, the majority of people stated the man was taller. Would that be evidence that 'suggests' men and women really are the same height on average and there is a misperception of height due to a biased system of blah blah feminist star trek magic words?
Howard said...I'm surprised Mr. Misogyny Romcom didn't bring up this paradoxical snippet that proves the more general rule.
Notice that he never takes gratuitous swipes at you. Does that make you feel insignificant?
"tim maguire said...
Curious George said...Longest comment: Cassandra
Subject: blah blah blah men talk too much blah blah blah
I'm biased here since she was mostly responding to me--I said the "never use 10 words when 100 will do" phenomenon is a female thing and she cited two men who do it--one self-aware and the other not.
I thought it was interesting."
Tell me more....
I'm digging this snowfall. Time to ski some laps on the frozen lake.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2020-12-30
Chickelit: that was a compliment. Just because you have a weak self esteem doesn't mean everyone else does.
NPR just said "Mori replied that he had been thoroughly scolded by his wife, daughter and granddaughter", thereby reinforcing his point.
What are the odds we’ll hold the 2020 Olympics before 2023?
I'm guessing everyone at the Tokyo Olympic organizing committee talks too much. Those meetings must be unbearable.
Husbands are known to be particularly impatient about sequential information-sharing, wanting to interject "I don't care about the lunch. did you get the job?" Women are more comfortable hearing the lunch as part of the story, to enter into the experience of the person telling it more fully.
For 290,000 years men were hunters, and needed to be able to communicate in short, precise ways in order to hunt effectively. Speed was important, and excessive talking might spook the prey.
For 290,000 years women were gatherers, who talked socially while they worked. There was no need for quiet, and the work could be done over an extended period of time.
But some drone on long after they've run out of things to say and seem to trail off and then come back, as though they are struggling not to surrender the floor once they have it. It can be very frustrating trying to be respectful and wait for them to decide they are done.
Yes. A million times yes. I was in a Zoom yesterday and this was happening. A (female) colleague was rambling, rambling, rambling. Occasionally a salient point would be made, but for the most part it was so much chaff. She does this all the time.
I am always trying to end a meeting early. If I want to make points they are brief and succinct and then I stop talking.
You could shorten things up considerably if you told the women Macy’s has a sale on purses and shoes.
I’ll let myself out.
AVI: Husbands are known to be particularly impatient about sequential information-sharing, wanting to interject "I don't care about the lunch. did you get the job?" Women are more comfortable hearing the lunch as part of the story, to enter into the experience of the person telling it more fully.
Ha! My husband is very much bottom-line-up-front - too much intro drives him crazy, and he's not shy about letting me know it. Part of his masculine charm :p
I mentioned this thread to him, and he said that working with Marines for 40 years (very heavily male), there are tons of guys who can't/won't shut up or get to the point. He complains about that all the time.
re: Curious George: Curious George said...Longest comment: Cassandra. Subject: blah blah blah men talk too much blah blah blah
Two thoughts:
1. I had the same thought just before posting that (long) comment - too funny!
2. I wasn't saying men talk too much, though. I agreed w/tim maguire that if you work in a male/female dominated workplace, the biggest talkers are more likely to be in the majority group.
I will point out that Mori did not say that women talk too much. He said they had difficulty finishing, which is another thing entirely. I question why the Headline Writer wanted to slant things.
My mother cannot get to the point. It's hilarious.
She cannot answer a basic question without backtracking into every layer of history that led up to that point. Then what was asked, is forgotten.
Assistant Village Idiot said...
I speak more than anyone in a conversation, by far, so any conversation with me in it is going to look male-dominated when it might be just me. The next comment in a discussion should always be by the person who has the most important thing to say, and that is usually me. . . .
TLDR
The issue of speaking beyond need is gender neutral. There was a guy at my workplace who had a management rule specifically about him, explained to all new hires, allowing anyone in the place to say to him, "Dave, I have to work now. Shut up and leave." This was the ONLY way to get Dave to shut up or leave, once he got to reminiscing about his long history at the company.
I also recall, at another company as it started flailing badly, when a VP brought a tape recorder to a meeting about failure to meet product delivery schedules. He put it in the center of the table and started recording as the meeting began. He was surprised nobody would open their mouths at all.
Women talking too much at meetings? In my experience: true. Most men find meeting excruciatingly boring, but women seem to enjoy them and want to draw them out as long as possible.
Roughcoat said...
Most of the trouble I’ve gotten into over 35 years of marriage has come from not already knowing.
Mine comes from having a "tone."
----------------------------------
I should've already known that 36 years of marriage would teach me I should've skipped the first 24 and held out for the last 12. To someone who, in our daily meetings, frequently tells me, "I just like everything about you." To which I frequently take a "tone" and answer, "Oh do go on... and on... and on..." Which is frequently answered with something to the effect of, "Hey, why don't you just shut up and kiss me?"
"If you're stuck in a woman-dominated meeting, you can always pass the time by undressing them with your eyes."
We've known the dangers of listening since at least the time Homer wrote the "The Odyssey".
In broadcasting there's a hand signal which means "Wrap it up".
If you find yourself in a woman dominated meeting, you should know it's time to get a real profession.
And then I undress her with my eyes.
"AVI: Husbands are known to be particularly impatient about sequential information-sharing, wanting to interject "I don't care about the lunch. did you get the job?" Women are more comfortable hearing the lunch as part of the story, to enter into the experience of the person telling it more fully."
It's just a bad communication method.
Last week my mother started a long-winded story about her interaction with her cell phone company over a $1,400 phone call to Africa (which she didn't make).
Me: "Mom! Stop! Are you on the hook for $1,400 or not!"
Her: "No."
Me: "OK, now tell your story."
My wife does this incessantly and it drives me nuts, but I have to pick my battles. Usually I let her go; not that I'm paying any attention by the time she gets around to the point. Try as I might, my attention span isn't long enough. But sometimes I just have to stop her: "I don't care what the doctor was wearing, was your cancer test positive or not!"
Do not make the mistake that the whole world, Japan in particular, is as woke as you are.
Lucid-Ideas@7:10
Thanks for the spit-take.
It's funny to read here how many people have the exact same communication issues with their spouse that I do. It's impossible to listen intently through the whole story, but you never know when the important information is going to come out. It could be lurking anywhere.
Roughcoat said...
"Most of the trouble I’ve gotten into over 35 years of marriage has come from not already knowing."
Mine comes from having a "tone."
Mine too. I often think complaining about my tone is a ruse to avoid dealing with what I'm actually saying.
But at least he gets people to think about the Olympics.
I'm sure a lot of people forgot about the Olympics were even still happening, and indeed they may not. (If they get cancelled altogether, it'll actually be the *second* time this has happened to Tokyo...they were supposed to host in 1940, as well!)
I often think complaining about my tone is a ruse to avoid dealing with what I'm actually saying.
"Tone" is something women use when they sense they're losing the argument. (Crying is also effective in these situations.)
But at least he gets people to think about the Olympics.
I'm sure a lot of people forgot about the Olympics were even still happening, and indeed they may not. (If they get cancelled altogether, it'll actually be the *second* time this has happened to Tokyo...they were supposed to host in 1940, as well!)
I often think complaining about my tone is a ruse to avoid dealing with what I'm actually saying.
"Tone" is something women use when they sense they're losing the argument. (Crying is also effective in these situations.)
I read some research a few years, might have been in the Harvard Business Review, that the length of a meeting does not improve the decisionmaking and recommended that meetings stay short. There was another article that noted that more women executives and managers lead to longer and more frequent meetings. Women cared to make sure everyone felt heard.
Decisionmaking is key need from executives and managers. If you want decisions made quicker, there is a difference in the sexes.
Everybody talks too much at business meetings, even the people who say nothing at all.
Blogger Howard said...
Chickelit: that was a compliment. Just because you have a weak self esteem doesn't mean everyone else does.
who lashes out more?
a. Men [ ]
b. Women [ ]
c. Howard [X]
Curious whether the research on relative speaking time was cross-cultural. My subjective impression is that more senior people in Japan speak less in meetings than more junior people, so the male vs female pattern found in US (or Western) studies might not replicate elsewhere.
Howard said... If you find yourself in a woman dominated meeting, you should know it's time to get a real profession.
I was in a woman dominated work environment. Banking. Small town branch of a large regional bank. I was the Commercial Loan officer, also processed Agricultural loans and later also wore the Investment Representative hat. All employees, except one, were women.
My job was to take loan applications, interview clients, analyze their finances, business plans, credit worthiness, asses the feasibility of the loan request, potential for success, repayment, failure. Etc etc. I needed to concentrate. Lots of number crunching before making a decision. A decision for which I personally would be responsible if the loan went Dixie. Then give the clients the good or bad ☹ news.
We would have monthly "sales" meetings to discuss cross selling bank products, loans and making referrals for investment prospects. My job then was trying to teach the tellers how to qualify or decide what is a good referral and what is a total waste of MY/our time. The Branch Manager and I were on the same page and she also felt the herding cats vibe. She was a GET TO THE POINT type of person.(She was my best friend and stood up beside me at my wedding 27 years ago)
Those meeting were incredibly painful.
Soooooo... I did get a better profession and became a financial planner and investment/portfolio advisor. CFP, SEC licenses, RIA fiduciary. This is a very male dominated profession.
Regional meetings among the other advisors, about 95% men...were so much better. Everyone was focused. The meetings didn't last forever. You didn't need to explain and RE-explain over and over the most simple concepts.
However, I will say even then, there were the chatty gabby rambling types of people. It isn't JUST women. Men can gasbag as well.
You had me at "who", Iman
Out: tone
In: eye rolls
So much for cultural relativism.
"Cassandra said...
AVI: Husbands are known to be particularly impatient about sequential information-sharing, wanting to interject "I don't care about the lunch. did you get the job?" Women are more comfortable hearing the lunch as part of the story, to enter into the experience of the person telling it more fully.
Ha! My husband is very much bottom-line-up-front - too much intro drives him crazy, and he's not shy about letting me know it. Part of his masculine charm :p
I mentioned this thread to him, and he said that working with Marines for 40 years (very heavily male), there are tons of guys who can't/won't shut up or get to the point. He complains about that all the time.
re: Curious George: Curious George said...Longest comment: Cassandra. Subject: blah blah blah men talk too much blah blah blah
Two thoughts:
1. I had the same thought just before posting that (long) comment - too funny!
2. I wasn't saying men talk too much, though. I agreed w/tim maguire that if you work in a male/female dominated workplace, the biggest talkers are more likely to be in the majority group."
thump zzzzzzzzzzz
yakkin'
DanTheMan's tombstone:
"I'm having a great day"
DBQ: As a field geologist, I worked with drillers all the time. In any field meeting to kick off the project, they would either say sounds good or you're full of shit, how about we do it this way. The chattiest driller I've ever worked with was out of Corning. He was a drunk stinking of Captain Morgan at 0700 who was hard on the iron, but could make hole with the best of them. What made him tolerably was you could say yeah, wow, you don't say and he didn't quiz you on what he blathered on and on about.
Women do talk too much, at least compared to men. My joke is a good husband is a giant ear.
Remember that 60s song (which without looking I know has already been referenced by someone above) ..: “You talk too much. you worry me to death. You talk too much you even worry my pets”?
What a great, true, no longer permitted lyric.
When I worked down at the WH, there were two male managers who would get into shouting matches with each other in meetings, absolutely terrifying the rest of the participants. The weirdest about it? They were good buddies outside of meetings, but they had very different ideas of how IT was to be done.
When I told one of the female managers who complained about them that they were good buddies, she couldn't believe it. I explained it as being a male thing, where one man felt secure about pushing the buttons of his male buddy in public because he was relatively certain that his buddy wasn't going to attempt to beat the shit out of him in public. If one man does this to a man who is a stranger, Man A isn't really sure just how much Man B is going to escalate the situation.
Then again, on another project there was a manager, an ex-Marine sniper, who publicly announced to our tech group "I just HATE fags!". So me and another guy would open the meetings by blowing kisses to him across the table. He'd go "You know I can't stand that!" and we'd say "That's why we do it".
Note to would-be male managers --- don't publicly proclaim your "buttons" to the world, for your fellow "buddies" will be only too happy to push them.
As an aside, when we would be in meetings.at the Department of Education (primarily female), it would be a successful meeting if everyone came out feeling good about each other.
Our meetings with the Department Of Economic Development (primarily male) would be judged successful if we got sh!t done.
Original Mike @10:31... funny stuff!
YH,
Males might make the buttons more obvious, but don't kid yourself the same doesn't go on with inees. Consider many women prefer to work around men.
Considering rhardin has a PhD on this subject, I'm impressed by a couple of early comments, followed by admirable restraint!!
An example to others, who rant on and on.
They could just count the number of "you know," "like," and "I feel" by each. Any doubt which way that would go?
Remember that 60s song (which without looking I know has already been referenced by someone above) ..: “You talk too much. you worry me to death. You talk too much you even worry my pets”?
What a great, true, no longer permitted lyric.
Big Joe Turner, "Honey Hush":
Come on in this house, stop all that yakety-yak,
Come on in this house, stop all that yakety-yak,
Don't make me nervous -- holdin' a baseball bat.,
The jury is still out on whether they may or may not talk too much, but everyone will agree that they do blog a shit-ton.
Is femsplaining a female (i.e. sex) or feminine (i.e. gender) quality? Does it also affect the feminine half, third, of the transgender spectrum?
I used to think men talked less until I started hanging out at the driving range. Some guys are pals and they never stop yakking. And the thing that's funny to me is that they talk to each other much the same way women do as far as being extremely gossipy.
I can relate to the comments about certain women (AOC, Jussie Smollett, etc.) who like to manipulate their listener's emotions and drag out stories. I find it annoying when they insist on reliving every detail and wanting everyone to feel their pain or anger etc., when in fact the situation has already been resolved. It's not about the information, it's about having their feelings affirmed and being heard. The trick is to pretend you are interested and say caring words but do not get sucked in emotionally. Women are good at faking that. Otherwise it's just a drain.
Generally I prefer the company of men who generally have better senses of humor -- probably because of the sex thing.
I loved what Meade said today about what Ann says. Very sweet. Thanks for sharing that in the month of love. We need more of that.
I don't know if women talk more than men. I've met people (male and female) who just seem to love the sound of their own voice.
Also, is talking too much correspond to engaging in gossip? My FIL used to refer to my MIL and her group of friends as the Hen Club. One of his favorite refrains "Telegram, telephone, tell a woman".
HistoryDoc said...
Considering rhardin has a PhD on this subject, I'm impressed by a couple of early comments, followed by admirable restraint!!
An example to others, who rant on and on.
2/4/21, 12:05 PM
--
Probably discovered it far less interesting to be on-topic.
Caroline said...
“……I thank God after each such experience that Catholics have remained faithful to the all-male priesthood. The minute we change that, men will no longer darken the door, and who could blame them.”
That’s what happened in the NO (Novus Ordo) form of the Mass with the introduction of female altar servers. It has done particular harm to the ranks of those boys who might seriously consider the priesthood. Females everywhere getting in the way. It’s why the rules for the EO (Extraordinary, a.k.a. Tridentine) Masses still specify only males as servers. (there are other reasons, but it's too much inside baseball)
The issue with women in meetings is not that they talk too much, it’s that nothing gets done. It’s always talked to death but no one has the nerve to pull the trigger on the actual decision. Does this come from a lack of understanding of the solution or a fear of being called out by other women for not waiting for “consensus”? It’s what dooms so many meetings to nothing more than hours of argle-bargle.
>>DanTheMan's tombstone: "I'm having a great day"
I like it! I'll let the stonecutter know. :)
She was a GET TO THE POINT type of person
..and that's the difference. I encounter get the point people of both genders (two) and there's call wreckers of both genders that don't know how to wrap it up. Sometimes the women need to go around the horn and each express their feelings of the situation. Not many men are into that...
The Olympics are one big corruptocratic party paid for by the host nation's local corruptocrats (therefore their taxpayers, if that's how their government operates). Sounds like the type of people that have plenty of time and plenty of other people's money to waste.
I can think of another deduction to be made from ubiquity of female altar servers in RC church. I was an altar boy, and today my attitude would be, great way to meet girls. (Although being an altar server for Tridentine Mass was more fun for sure.)
Olympic head's youth sport was rugby. Now 83. Rugby has some of the same dementia issues as NFL and boxing.
Does it really matter whether women talk more, or if it just seems like it?
;)
My experience in business and academia is that men go for the result while women do process. YMMV. This suggests that men sensing that women are talking too much is really about men not caring about the process and wanting to get to the result.
This suggests that men sensing that women are talking too much is really about men not caring about the process and wanting to get to the result.
Which is fine, if there is already enough process (generally the case in large companies or government, where there is arguably too much process).
I work for a small firm. We have very little process, and the result is too often chaos and confusion and inefficiency and endless rework. My own generalization is that the "right amount" of process varies, and the least amount of process that gets the job done is optimal.
Yoshiro may as well just fall on his sword and get it over with.
He voiced an unapproved thought and has no future.
I trust nothing from the WaPoo (the NYT, too!)
The 83-year-old head of the Tokyo Olympics has resigned. To be replaced by an 84-year-old guy!
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