२७ फेब्रुवारी, २०२१

"President Biden has decided that the diplomatic cost of directly penalizing Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, is too high..."

"... according to senior administration officials, despite a detailed American intelligence finding that he directly approved the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, the dissident and Washington Post columnist who was drugged and dismembered in October 2018. The decision by Mr. Biden, who during the 2020 campaign called Saudi Arabia a 'pariah' state with 'no redeeming social value,' came after weeks of debate in which his newly formed national security team advised him that there was no way to formally bar the heir to the Saudi crown from entering the United States, or to weigh criminal charges against him, without breaching the relationship with one of America’s key Arab allies. Officials said a consensus developed inside the White House that the cost of that breach, in Saudi cooperation on counterterrorism and in confronting Iran, was simply too high.... Mr. Biden and his aides have repeatedly said that they intend to take a far tougher line with the Saudis than did President Donald J. Trump, who vetoed legislation passed by both houses of Congress to block weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.... Mr. Trump refused to make [the intelligence findings] public, knowing it would fuel the action for sanctions or criminal action against Prince Mohammed."

From "Biden Won’t Penalize Saudi Crown Prince Over Khashoggi’s Killing, Fearing Relations Breach/The decision will disappoint the human rights community and members of his own party who complained during the Trump administration that the U.S. was failing to hold Mohammed bin Salman accountable" (NYT).

AND: From "President Biden Lets a Saudi Murderer Walk/The crown prince killed my friend Jamal Khashoggi, and we do next to nothing" by Nicholas Kristof (NYT):

Perhaps I’m biased because I knew Jamal. Some may think: It’s too bad about the murder, but other leaders have killed people, too. True, but M.B.S. poisons everything he touches. He kidnapped Lebanon’s prime minister. He oversaw a feud with Qatar. He caused the world’s worst humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen. He imprisoned women’s rights activists. He has tarnished his country’s reputation far more effectively than Iran ever could. 
So, Mr. Biden, it’s not a human rights “gesture” to sanction M.B.S. Jamal was a practical man who didn’t believe in mushy gestures — but he did dream of a more democratic Arab world that would benefit Arabs and Americans alike. And by letting a murderer walk, you betray that vision.

७१ टिप्पण्या:

Masscon म्हणाले...

Hey leftists...meet the new boss, same as the old boss

wendybar म्हणाले...

Bhahahhahahah!! Now just imagine the OUTRAGE if this was said by Trump!!

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

Jamal Khashoggi's killing made sense.

He was doing to Trump, in the Middle East, what the WaPo and the rest were trying to do to him here.

They're lucky they're not all in the Middle East.

David Begley म्हणाले...

Biden didn’t decide. Susan Rice and Tony Blinken decided. Let’s be honest.

MayBee म्हणाले...

Khashoggi's cause was really just a bludgeon to use against Trump. I'm guessing we won't hear much about him ever again.

Humperdink म्हणाले...

Wasn't that Trump's decision also? Why yes it was.

Temujin म्हणाले...

I'm not sure Biden actually knows any of this has happened.

Good to see you again, Crack.

gilbar म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
gilbar म्हणाले...

what Masscon said

gilbar म्हणाले...

Temujin said... I'm not sure Biden actually knows any of this has happened.

Joe Biden, I wake up every morning and ask Jill, where the Hell am I?

Eric the Fruit Bat म्हणाले...

The decision came after weeks of debate. Weeks?

Laslo Spatula म्हणाले...

Needs a "Trump was right" tag.

I am Laslo.

Assistant Village Idiot म्हणाले...

I think it was the right decision, if hypocritical. I will also note that apparently the diplomatic cost of offending us was apparently no big deal to the Saudis. Or maybe they just thought it would all remain under the table.

@ Laslo - or "Just like Trump"

Mark म्हणाले...

So when MBS takes over we have decades we will just roll over no matter what they do.

Great, a few more decades of Wahhabism being exported from Saudi Arabia and saber rattling at Iran.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Trump did more than that. He saw it as doing something that made Saudi owe him a favor, hence the Abraham peace deals.

chuck म्हणाले...

TBH, I don't really care.

exhelodrvr1 म्हणाले...

So Trump was right. Again

jeremyabrams म्हणाले...

I believe Obama's objection would have been that the proper way for a government to kill one of its own citizens is by drone.

Iman म्हणाले...

May the fleas of 1,000 camels infest their armpits.

Browndog म्हणाले...

When do we start bombing Egypt to punish them for removing Morsi?

BUMBLE BEE म्हणाले...

To quote a previous U.S. presidential candidate: "Picky, Picky, Picky".

Lucid-Ideas म्हणाले...

NO REFUNDS!

Lucid-Ideas म्हणाले...

"Never be surprised at Joe's ability to fuck things up."

- A man who sits like a woman with another man born in the USA

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"the dissident and Washington Post columnist"

But that's not all he was.

How did he become a "columnist" anyway? Who in the deep state conspired with pro-terrorist Muslims and anti-MBS Saudis to get him that gig? I mean, it wasn't the quality of K's wit and wisdom, was it?

At his next press conference, if he ever holds one, someone should ask Joe who Kashoggi was.

Leland म्हणाले...

What this tells me is that Trump was a better President than Biden is today.

Pretending not to know who killed Khashoggi is a better situation for the US to be in than to announce "Yeah we know, but we are too weak to stand up to the guy!" Reminds me of Obama's bow.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

It was always plain to any serious person that relations with Saudi Arabia cannot be dramatically altered in response to this murder, however heinous it may have been. Our realistic options were limited. It’s just another example of journalistic idiocy; the willingness of the media to undermine our country and even further limit our government’s options. Especially when there is a Republican in office. Obviously, now that a Democrat is safely installed, the outcry will be muted. Biden did the right thing, the only thing.

Ironclad म्हणाले...

Khashoggi was no angel - he was a flunky for the Saudi regime for decades and was the editor of the most virulent anti Jew, anti Israel newspaper published there - I know, I used to read it daily since it was the only English local paper. He backed the wrong side after king Fahd died and was on the outs. He just “sold” himself to the Muslim Brotherhood and Qatar which had become an open enemy after they got rich from natural gas. ( Saudi literally dug a moat between the borders)

What happened to him was awful, but that happens to everyone who crosses the big guys running states in those areas - they play for keeps. And if we “ retaliated” on each one - well we would not be talking to anyone there. Such is the world and realpolitik. I wonder how Xiden would react to Iran, since they do this type of thing wholesale.

The ONLY difference here is this piece of work was “working” for Pravda on the Potomac ( WAPO) and being paid by Qatar for his columns. It was high profile and got the virtue signalers attention to make it “ news”. Just one more in the day to day business of the Middle East.

Amexpat म्हणाले...

I get that the Saudis are a key US ally, but at some point it's not worth it. Their leadership is decadent and corrupt. There is a strong strain of fundamentalist Islam in their society that is directly responsible for 9/11 and the 2016 terrorist attack in Sacramento. It looks to me that their leadership is using that as a bargaining chip - support us in our gradualist attempt to modernize the country or have to potentially deal with an Al Qaeda run Saudi Arabia.

If Iran had a fair election, the fundamentalists would most likely be voted out of power. If that happened, Iran might be the better long term ally.

Dude1394 म्हणाले...

Is expect the CIA did it, or at least the CIA is lying about it now, never trust the CIA/FBI anymore.

Rory म्हणाले...

"What happened to him was awful, but that happens to everyone who crosses the big guys running states in those areas - they play for keeps."

I wondered for years why an Islamic Gandhi never appeared. Finally realized that some probably did, but they never made it to maturity.

stevew म्हणाले...

On look, Biden continues get another of the policies of the evil and despicable President Trump. Shocked I am not. Lefties rationalize and, of course, explain that this is different.

daskol म्हणाले...

Needs a "Trump was right" tag.

This re-airing and other snubbing of MBS is undermining the Arab-Israel-US ME axis so strengthened by Trump, and I'm sure whatever signals were intended to regional players, notably the Iran side, were sent. You can sense that our leadership would love to scrap it, but proceed cautiously rather than all at once.

They keep calling Kashoggi a journalist, which I guess is supposed to tug at the "freedom of speech" strings, but I don't think the martyrdom of journalists is going to sell, and that seems a debasement of the word "journalist." Especially when it comes to international affairs, the whole thing is murky--where does intelligence work end and "journalism" begin? Can one be both an intelligence agent or asset and a journalist, or is journalist just cover, even if you produce output that can be considered part of the corpus of journalism?
Increasingly this murkiness pervades domestic affairs coverage. Most of the news has been so co-opted into the service of state or deep state interests, from the corporate level to the product itself. If it's all or mostly a great big psy-op, even the journalists who aren't wittingly intelligence agents who propound disinfo or assets who pass on what their handlers feed them, but who cover the bullshit and let it dominate the news, even they seem pretty useful to those interests.
Kashoggi's murder sounds particularly nasty and gratuitously brutal, shamelessly lacking in plausible deniability, but then maybe that was part of the point. This also seems to describe Epstein's "suicide"--maybe the public nature of it was seen by some as an obstacle, but the audacity sends a powerful message to les autres.
I remember when we bombed the state-associated media HQ and broadcasting center in Belgrade. My wife was working then in our true capital (media sense) NYC in news at a major media org, and I was struck: wow, information warfare and the bombs and bullet kind are just different tactics for different battles, or different stages of battles. Those journalists went into work thinking they were fighting the propaganda war, and within a day or two, but for the handful killed in the bombing and anyone who peaced out, were back at it.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

Trump handled it much more diplomatically. Hmm. Isn’t this the kind of Biden boneheaded antitrumpism we warned y’all about? Yes. Yes it is.

Browndog म्हणाले...

FJ
@Natsecjeff

Who hates Crown Prince MbS? Let's take a look.

- Turkish govt and its lobbyists.

- Qatari govt and its lobbyists.

- Iran & its lobbyists.

- Global Islamists.

- Global Jihadists.

- Lefties.

- All the CIA-allied assets he sidelined in Riyadh.

- Israel haters.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"Bhahahhahahah!! Now just imagine the OUTRAGE if this was said by Trump!!"

Trump didn't take any action in response to Kashoggi's murder, either.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"So Trump was right. Again"

Nope. You forget: two wrongs do not make a right.

Kate म्हणाले...

When my guy says, "I will hold that foreign nation/leader to account!" and he doesn't, it's disheartening.

When their guy says, "I will hold that foreign nation/leader to account!" and he doesn't, I'm glad rhetoric is mostly gas, as I expected.

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"I believe Obama's objection would have been that the proper way for a government to kill one of its own citizens is by drone."

This is the reality: the US is as murderous as any nation or foreign leader we might condemn for their murders.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

Trump decline to release the intelligence report. Are people saying that was right? Doesn't Biden deserve credit for letting the information be seen when it is information that makes it easier to criticize him?

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

NO releasing the intelligence is a cheap bitch move to embarrass the Saudis he wants to punish. The little two-step dance is the kind of thing foreign policy geeks like: a gesture towards “transparency” without being really open. Then the dramatic reveal that we will do... nothing. So why bring it up and embarrass a putative ally? Stupid. Too many hands on the till.

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

Great list Browndog of the Prince MBS enemies!

The enemies of MbS were trying to sideline him, and reduce Saudi influence, and this report was just the latest attack.

Other recent Biden actions:
- refusing to deal with MbS directly, only his Father
- Declaring Houthani not terrorists
- Threatening ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia
- no more support for Yemen War

My guess is the Saudis reminded the Biden administration, there are other options besides the US, that would love to be friendlier to the Saudis... and it would be tragic if the Saudis reduced oil exports and spiked oil prices...

daskol म्हणाले...

Trump decline to release the intelligence report. Are people saying that was right? Doesn't Biden deserve credit for letting the information be seen when it is information that makes it easier to criticize him?

That's a half smart take. Biden is a front and entirely expendable. His taking political damage is either irrelevant, or more likely part of the plan to help ease Kamala into office. And the real target was the Arab-Israeli-US coalition Trump built up.

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

The US and Israel go through incredible efforts to reduce non combatant deaths.

Compare and contrast to Russia, Assad, and Iran. They use terror as a strategy.

The US is like boy scouts compared to other nations.

>US is as murderous as any nation or foreign leader

Big Mike म्हणाले...

Doesn't Biden deserve credit for letting the information be seen when it is information that makes it easier to criticize him?

No. It is going to complicate the US relationship with Saudi Arabia for no discernible benefit to the United States.

Meanwhile Nicholas Kristof acts like he’s the only person who has ever had a friend murdered and the killer walked. He needs to meet more people, starting with the friends of Ashli Babbitt and the boyfriend of Jessica Whitaker.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

... and it would be tragic if the Saudis reduced oil exports and spiked oil prices

Not to the US while we are a net exporter of oil. But Joe is trying to fix that.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

It would have been highly hypocritical for the US government to object to the killing. Seriously- how many Saudi citizens have we killed in the last 2 decades by designating them as worth killing? At this point, I am sure the numbers are in the thousands.

Narr म्हणाले...

Biden's a pragmatic punk-ass bitch who will do what he's told, as others have already noted.
And our professional punk-ass bitch journo class will stress how much he agonizes over such trivia.

"The US and Israel go through incredible efforts to reduce noncombatant deaths," says Rory. That may be true, and would explain a lot.

Narr
What is the Russian term for "collateral damage"?

Narr म्हणाले...

Sorry Rory! Sorry Ray - So Cal! I quoted the latter but cited the former.

Narr
My bad

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"The US and Israel go through incredible efforts to reduce non combatant deaths."

What data leads you to this opinion?

KLH म्हणाले...

The media’’s outrage over Khashoggi shows their self-absorption and elitism. He was not a US citizen and was not killed in the US. We are all supposed to be SUPER OUTRAGED about this tragedy, why? Because he had a column in the WP. Sure, it’s a sad tragedy, especially for his family, but the media is looking out for their friend and colleague, personalIzing it. I don’t think the news is supposed to be about them.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

what is connection between Jamal and Adnan?

daskol म्हणाले...

last name?

Narayanan म्हणाले...

Robert Cook said...
"So Trump was right. Again"

Nope. You forget: two wrongs do not make a right.
-------------============
where do you see two wrongs

there is only one and same wrong to see?!

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

In the US Clinton era they added an infestation of lawyers in the military.
> What data leads you to this opinion?

In Israel they also set up a system to reduce the chances of lawfare being used against them.

Russian Translation of collateral damage is on target.

Just imagine the civilian casualties if the US and/ or Israel started stopped taking actions to reduce collateral damage.



Narayanan म्हणाले...

Big Mike said...
….
Meanwhile Nicholas Kristof acts like he’s the only person who has ever had a friend murdered and the killer walked. He needs to meet more people, starting with the friends of Ashli Babbitt and the boyfriend of Jessica Whitaker.
--------============
why did you leave out Seth Rich and Jeffrey Epstein

Robert Cook म्हणाले...

"Just imagine the civilian casualties if the US and/ or Israel started stopped taking actions to reduce collateral damage."

That is not an answer.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

As far as I can tell, Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen who was working against the interests of his country.

The penalty for that could well be death, and in his case it was.

That is completely consistent with Saudi culture.

Who are we to say it is wrong?

All cultures are equal.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

By not releasing the report and not shaming MBS on the world stage, Trump had leverage over him, and used that leverage for the greater good.

Take a look at the peace that broke out in the Middle East.

Sometimes you've got to break a few eggs...collateral damage and all that.

Rabel म्हणाले...

As I understand it, the CIA's assessment is almost entirely based on the fact that MBS was in charge and the murder couldn't have happened without his approval, therefore it is most likely that he ordered the hit. They have no hard evidence.

Weak tea from a disreputable source.

Biotrekker म्हणाले...

1. All these countries are run by thugs. What's new?

2. When Saint Barack kills people, it's ok because he's a Nobel Laureate and it was an accident (also, these people were not friends of Nicholas Kristof, so they don't count).

Wikipedia: "On orders from U.S. President Barack Obama, U.S. warplanes fired cruise missiles at what officials in Washington claimed were Al Qaeda training camps in the provinces of Sana'a and Abyan on 17 December 2009.[246] Instead of hitting Al-Qaeda operatives, it hit a village, killing 55 civilians.[247] Officials in Yemen said that the attacks claimed the lives of more than 60 civilians, 28 of them children. Another airstrike was carried out on 24 December.[248]"

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

>That is not an answer.

US and Israeli efforts to reduce collateral damage:

US Efforts:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a579024.pdf

https://www.justsecurity.org/74619/avoiding-collateral-damage-on-the-battlefield/

Israeli Efforts:

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/gabriel-granatstein/israel-gaza-conflict_b_5683201.html

https://jcpa.org/the-gaza-war-2014/israel-gaza-humanitarian-law-civilian-casualties/

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/03/israeli_soldiers_speak_out.html

Narr म्हणाले...

My translator renders "collateral damage" in Russian as "winning."

Narr
Who speaks of the Chechens any more?

Narr म्हणाले...

What do you market mavens think about a play in Peace Bombs and Mercy Missiles now that the lefteous people are back in charge?

Narr
In addition to gold and guns of course

DavidUW म्हणाले...

Jamal was not a good person engaged in rabble rousing against a not good, indeed, a medieval regime.

Don’t care

No one would care except somebody let him scribble shit at the wapo.

Andrew म्हणाले...

Jamal was part of the Saudi security state, he turned on the state. He was no inocent. He fucked up and paid the price.

daskol म्हणाले...

Another entry in the "journalist, agent and/or something else" category. The answer is not easy. If there is to be a thing such as journalists that we'll most of us think of as reporters rather than activists/agents, those who are prominent in media today ought to get a little finer about making these distinctions. Otherwise we might think they're just fucking with us, playing "journalist mask on, journalist mask off" and complicit in the game their ideological compatriot "journalists" are playing.

MikeR म्हणाले...

Meh. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Salman#Human_rights (which has become significantly biased against him recently). He is one side of a massive power struggle inside Saudi Arabia. The other side is the Wahhabis who support religious persecution in Saudi Arabia and worldwide, and a lot of entrenched powerful people in Saudi Arabia who support them. His side is the one that supports rights for women and a lot of other things we support. He kills people because he's in a war.
Americans don't think that way but it's still true.

daskol म्हणाले...

More prominent and more important died in this power struggle more or less contemporaneous to Jamal K, and many were severely "inconvenienced" (e.g. detained, probably beaten/tortured, and dispossessed of vast sums). This one, for whatever reason, was done a bit more publicly than the helicopter crash that killed a Saudi royal, and with less plausible deniability. None of them every had a byline in the WaPo, either.

Balfegor म्हणाले...

We've cooperated with much, much more vile regimes and murderers in our time (see, e.g. Stalin and the Soviet Union). The logic of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't unusual, even if it sometimes results in the Most Christian King of France forming an alliance with the Ottoman Sultan, even as the Sultan fights for the subjugation of all Christendom.

Achilles म्हणाले...

Robert Cook said...

"The US and Israel go through incredible efforts to reduce non combatant deaths."

What data leads you to this opinion?

Personal experience.

अनामित म्हणाले...

Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself. Nome sayin?