The NYT reports.
“The name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn Manson,” Ms. Wood wrote in an Instagram post. “He started grooming me when I was a teenager and horrifically abused me for years. I was brainwashed and manipulated into submission. I am done living in fear of retaliation, slander, or blackmail. I am here to expose this dangerous man and call out the many industries that have enabled him, before he ruins any more lives. I stand with the many victims who will no longer be silent.”
Wood was 19 — a teenager — when the relationship began. Manson was twice her age. His Instagrammed response is:
“Obviously, my art and my life have long been magnets for controversy, but these recent claims about me are horrible distortions of reality. My intimate relationships have always been entirely consensual with like-minded partners. Regardless of how — and why — others are now choosing to misrepresent the past, that is the truth.”
From the NYT:
Ms. Wood, who supported a California law that extended the statute of limitations on domestic abuse, testified before the State Senate in 2019 that a man whom she did not identify by name had groomed her when she was 18.
“He cut me off from my close friends and family one by one, by exhibiting rage in some form or another when I was in contact with them,” she said in her testimony. “He had bouts of extreme jealousy, which would often result in him wrecking our home, cornering me in a room and threatening me.”
She said that she felt terrified for her life, and that he broke her down through starvation and sleep deprivation, and by threatening to kill her. In one instance, he forced her to kneel in their bedroom, tied up her hands and feet, beat her and shocked sensitive parts of her body....
Mr. Manson told Spin magazine in 2009 that he had called Ms. Wood 158 times one day after a breakup. “I have fantasies every day about smashing her skull in with a sledgehammer,” he said.
पोस्ट्स
१२७ टिप्पण्या:
You had me at Evan Rachel Wood.
She's that HBO robot thingie, right?
It all sounds horrible, but I am confused. Isn't 18, 19 an adult (not a teenager, exactly)? Can an adult be 'groomed'? I guess so, but that term is usually reserved for minor children, not 18 year old young adults.
Not that it justifies abuse, but we can't afford to equate consenting adult relationships with underage children abuse. And 18 is above the age of consent.
evan rachel wood
switch hitting thing of beauty
i’m Boss With Hot Sauce
She wasn't a young teenager...she was 19. (not saying it didn't happen, but come on....it's not like she was 14 and being groomed. She should have known a LITTLE better at 19) Does she have a new movie out and need publicity??
So Manson is not homosexual?
That's a relief!
I am a glass-half-full sort of guy.
Manson would be wise to remember the warning of the blogger Tom Smith:
Imagine the entire human universe is like the surface of a sphere. So all its dimensions, social, economic, cultural, sexual and so on, are represented as points on the surface of this sphere. Yes, it's a simplification. On this sphere somewhere, perhaps where we might put Uzbekistan, is the land of the crazygirls. It is fairly populous. Here live the ladies who fall in love with someone else the moment they get engaged to you and have mad everything-but-actual-sex with him (because that would be wrong) and then write all about it years later in the New York Times. Here live the young women who canoodle with you all summer long but don't have sex because they say (falsely) they were raped, but when they finally do sort of have sex with you, they hate you because you made them feel such a strong emotion. And this, I assure you, is just the beginning. Down the road lie the hours, the years of ultimately fruitless therapy, the crazykids fluttering like frightened bats against the windows, the absolutely, no kidding, forget about due process and just get her out of her, certifiable lunatic mother in law. The father in law who packs the wooden sailboat his uncle left him with 20 pounds of TNT, sails out into the sound and is never heard of again, save once. The person with whom sex is good or bad, but always deeply, deeply confusing. Anyway, that's where they dwell. What you want to do is draw a line from the land of the crazygirls through the center of the earth and then out to the other side of the world. That is maximum distance from the land of the crazygirls and that's where you want to dwell. This is nothing to fool around with, not even as a tourist.
If only there had been a warning sign...
It all sounds horrible, but I am confused. Isn't 18, 19 an adult (not a teenager, exactly)? Can an adult be 'groomed'? I guess so, but that term is usually reserved for minor children, not 18 year old young adults.
No woman must be made to feel bad about, or responsible for, anything, ever.
What I remember about her movie Thirteen was that her character shoplifted all the time.
"Yes, I am a normal, emotionally mature woman, that's why I started seeing a show biz guy with a woman's name, who wore goth make up, and a colored contact lens."
Lol.
"Yes, I am a normal, emotionally mature woman, that's why I started seeing a show biz guy with a woman's name, who wore goth make up, and a colored contact lens."
Lol.
A woman's first name. A serial killers last name. No red flags there!
Sure, an adult should have known better. But relationships like that don't start out with one person being controlling. They start out with that person acting as though you are the greatest thing ever. It's very flattering to have someone center their world around you and it's easy for a young person to fall into that. This is what the storybooks and movies have told us love is like. Then very slowly, the other person cuts you off from your friends and family. They don't want time away from you (more flattery and you feel so loved). Or they make you think that other person doesn't have your best interests at heart. (How ironic.)
They make you question your choices, your ideas, everything. It's not obvious in the beginning, it's just little remarks from someone you admire, and in this case, someone older and with more experience. Those remarks are done to make you unsure of yourself so you become more and more dependent on them. It's hard to break away.
I’m sorry, but this story lost me at “I was 19 at the time”
This girl needs therapy for stuff that most likely happened to her way before she was 19 and stuff that had nothing to do with Marilyn Manson who looks like he is in for a royal screwing. His cover of Sweet Dreams was great. Totally changed the way I hear the original.
Once you are 19, it isn’t “grooming,” it’s seduction.
Didn't Evan Rachel Wood invent that speed-reading thing?
Why do I care? Why would I beleive?
No one has mentioned it yet so I will.
Tara Reade
I saw Manson open for the Smashing Pumpkins a few years ago. I never was much of a fan of his, but the album he was promoting on that tour- "The Pale Emperor"- is pretty good.
However if I had to choose between a musician I only sort of like, and Rachel Evan Wood... she wins every time.
No clue what is true here and not going to read it, but how many every day victims are afforded this manner of press coverage? She voluntarily chose to get in a relationship with Marilyn Manson, 19 years her senior and with all of the attendant PR baggage he publicized, let alone privately harbored. Is anything involving Marilyn Manson and maybe less than "normal" behavior really a shock worthy of a self-serving victimization press release? There has to be some level where "eyes wide shut" becomes a thing for celebrities and their press agents, and the media doesn't treat it as "news" when victims without press agents are ignored.
He should have been smart and gone after Tara Reade.
Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women. Way to stay consistent with your corp beliefs.
She started in Hollywood as a child.
18 in Hollywood years is 50.
It is also 12.
I am Laslo.
If you look at the person that plays the character Marilyn Manson and fail to react like the author of the Crazygirls essay above, you may be a Crazygirl. If you put up with the shit described by Wood for more than five minutes, you may have problems with interpersonal relationships and the ability to identify trouble when you see it. People tend to be all over the place when they're eighteen, and somebody hopefully helped her get out of that particular hell.
It's hard to be human. More for some than others.
I hope Wood finds some peace. It can't be easy when you're the product. You keep having to find ways to stand out and be noticed.
Nobody is siding with anybody, just wondering how you can be so dumb and BLIND when you are 19. They want to be considered an adult, until they don't.
According to Wiki she has three brothers.
In the Golden Days of Patriarchy one of them would have beaten the shit out of the guy.
I am Laslo.
Piss off, Howard.
That said; it is entirely possible to groom vulnerable young people who are adults and thus responsible for their decisions. That's how Scientology does it's damage.
I don’t know what is/is not true. But it’s pretty frightening how a non legal accusation can get someone cancelled in an instant. I guess PayPal, MasterCard, visa, Amazon, Google, YouTube will now follow suit.
He's a homely head-case who managed to strike it rich.
As such, he had access to a higher class of girls with Daddy Issues.
The cliches about trailer parks translates to Hollywood, too.
Just more tinsel.
I am Laslo.
wendybar said...
"Does she have a new movie out and need publicity??"
Or he has a new album out, and he asked her to help him recapture his edgelord status.
Seriously, though, when you've structured your whole public image the way he has, it's hard to convince people, "I would never make a woman do gross and demeaning things." And I read him to perhaps be saying that he did indeed make her do stuff that looks abusive, but he thinks it was consensual because it was their thing.
She's looking back on it, on the other hand, and saying she wasn't in her right mind and he knew it. She weakens her point by saying "teenager," but my guess would be that she had some dysfunctional childhood, latched on to him as her first major relationship because he made her feel adult and rebellious, and then had no idea what to do when he turned out to be a rage monster.
She's named Evan, he's named Marilyn? I'm confused.
Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women.
As far as I can tell, not one person has defended MM actions. In fact I have no idea of what he's supposed to have done. You know, two consenting adults? Most of us are commenting on the fact that She's trying to claim the protection of childhood so she doesn't have to take responsibility for a bad decision she made as an adult.
As with many here, I question the repeated use of language normally reserved for children on somebody who is 19 simply because we pronounce this adult year with a "teen" at the end.
Maybe Manson was an abuser who she should have walked away from much earlier, but she chose not to. Meanwhile, alarms go off when I read, "In one instance, he forced her to kneel in their bedroom, tied up her hands and feet, beat her and shocked sensitive parts of her body..."
It's either serious crime or she is using their normal BDSM relationship (normal for BDSM) as a weapon against him to get herself in the news.
Gosh, he seems like such a normal, well-adjusted fellow. Who would have guessed?
(obligatory)
So, she was a “girl” ?
so, how does all this tie in to Rose McGowan?
You, know the Rose McGowan that was able to get a job on the show (Charmed) as a witch "since she has major goth cred as Marilyn Manson's former flame"
The Rose McGowan that started the PoundMeToo Movement?
The Rose McGowan, that EVERYONE expected to accuse Marilyn Manson of Something...
But never did
It's very flattering to have someone center their world around you and it's easy for a young person to fall into that. This is what the storybooks and movies have told us love is like. Then very slowly, the other person cuts you off from your friends and family. They don't want time away from you (more flattery and you feel so loved). Or they make you think that other person doesn't have your best interests at heart. (How ironic.)
They make you question your choices, your ideas, everything. It's not obvious in the beginning, it's just little remarks from someone you admire, and in this case, someone older and with more experience. Those remarks are done to make you unsure of yourself so you become more and more dependent on them. It's hard to break away.
WORD. I was a month shy of my eighteenth birthday when it started. He wasn't older, but he was much more broken than I suspected (even though I knew he was "dark" and therefore romantic). I married the guy - the guy who, at first, made me feel so very special, but over the course of the next five years managed to cut me off from every possible friendship, every activity that didn't involve him; who wouldn't let me sing along with the radio because it was disrespectful to the artist; who only put up with my going to church because I got paid to sing there, but never failed to ridicule and belittle my faith; who, every Saturday when we washed our cars whether they needed it or not, made me be inside each car cleaning everything with various noxious products, using Q-tips to clean every vent, windows up, while he washed the outside; who played video games incessantly and insisted that I watch attentively the whole time; who regularly noted that according to the IQ tests we had each taken in middle school, he had 4 points on me.
Married for 2 years. No kids, thank God. I was young and stupid and I take responsibility for letting it go on that long - but I am here to tell you, he "got" me in such a naive state, and isolated me so completely, that it took me five years to collect enough information about the outside world to realize what I was allowing to happen.
I don't find the argument that she should have known better at 19 convincing. I was incredibly stupid a 19. Heck, I was incredibly stupid through my twenties. Some might argue that I am still incredibly stupid :) What she needed was good advice from someone she trusted. The age difference alone should have been a red flag, those relationships almost always go sour, and quickly.
In the Golden Days of Patriarchy one of them would have beaten the shit out of the guy.
This.
Small town Iowa still works this way to a certain extent.
30 years ago, the town we lived in had a pedophile. He was in prison, then got out. He lived an hour away. Then he started showing up in town. His mom had died, and he would come back and stay at the house, and hang out...at the school.
A group of us fathers got to talking and we started a whisper campaign. We talked about paying this guy a "visit" to explain local customs. Using visual aids like bats and chains.
In about 3 days he left and never came back. We had no intention of doing harm, but we were deadly serious about administering some vigilante justice if a child was harmed.
Yes. Fathers and brothers can serve a useful societal function.
She got involved with the guy who did this (from the Manson Wiki)
"...When Manson left the band's outpost at South Beach Studios "to get something to eat," he ran into Slotsky, a resident of South Beach at the time,[3] who he invited back to the studio to meet the band, Trent Reznor and Sean Beavan, among others. Manson muses that "[...] it was ironic because just that day, Pogo was saying that one of his fantasies was to have sex with a deaf girl because then he could say whatever he wanted without upsetting her or feeling embarrassed."[2] Manson confesses that "to break the ice, I usually say whatever is on my mind," which in this case led him to ask Slotsky to take off her clothes; she complied, stripping down to her boots, leaving the group both shocked and amazed to command this much "sexual power".[2]
The band proceeded to cover Slotsky in a variety of uncooked meats they had collected earlier that day, which Manson describes as "one half hour of pure meat cavorting."[4] The group documented the experience with sketches, photographs, on videotape, and "whatever way we could capture this great moment in art history."[4] According to The Long Hard Road Out of Hell, Manson then tried escalating the situation by asking bassist Twiggy and Stephen Bier, better known as former Marilyn Manson keyboardist Madonna Wayne Gacy, to scotch tape their penises together to see if Slotsky could put them both in her mouth. In the midst of this and the "cameras, street musicians, and sketch artists" in the room, the group allegedly decided that Bier should live his fantasy of having sex with a deaf girl. Manson notes that he does not feel Slotsky was being exploited by this, as it was something she was very excited to be part of, and everyone in the group besides Nine Inch Nails were "having a good time" watching the experience, although one of the things Bier shouted while reportedly having sex with Slotsky "seemed to echo through the room as maybe one of the darkest things we had ever heard."[4]
Afterwards, Slotsky wanted to take a shower to wash off the "meat slime and assorted body fluids." In light of this, Manson reports asking if he and Twiggy could urinate on her, which she purportedly condoned, granted that they kept away from her eyes and boots. During this however, Twiggy did not aim properly and splashed her in the face. Manson explains "that was when everyone else in the room completely shut down and realized things had gone too far..."
It was in his fucking autobiography, 9 years before they met.
I am Laslo.
Howard: "Way to stay consistent with your corp beliefs."
Sounds like something Obama would say, only he would pronounce the "p" in corp.
A couple of things; She was in Hollywood long before she met Manson. Second, he, like many other denizens of the music scene was addicted to multiple substances and might still be. The point being is that they are both incredibly damaged people and that damage occurred long before they began their relationship. I am not going to convict either of these people based on she said/he said media stories.
Lastly, why are so many people willing to suspend disbelief when it trashy gossip, but not when it is news about ant political figure?
I do business with all sorts of crazy and immoral leftists. It's a commercial relationship. Money for product.
Maybe leftists will discover how to do that someday again.
When you're a star they let you grab them by the pussy.
Marilyn Manson is a creep? Who could have seen that coming?
Re: chuck:
What she needed was good advice from someone she trusted. The age difference alone should have been a red flag, those relationships almost always go sour, and quickly.
I can't speak to how frequently those kinds of relationships go sour -- Macron's relationship with his old schoolteacher seems to have started under even squickier circumstances but they're still together -- but yes, she definitely needed someone else's counsel. That said, she also seems sort of like she would have angrily rejected such counsel in the moment.
Sometimes Satan hides underneath the veneer of some normal looking dude like NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo. Other times he takes off the costume and just roams free showing his private parts to anyone who will cheer and awe… like Marilyn Manson.
In both cases liberals that fawn over these kind of men act completely shocked when it turns out they are both evil.
Her story sounds credible and I sympathize with her but ... girls, ladies, you cannot seriously expect rock stars — especially “edgy” rock stars — to respect you or treat you well. Don’t be naive.
Rock stars in general treat females like roadside trash because ... guess what? They can. Enough females are attracted to it that the supply is limitless.
The PUA community talks about exactly this type of thing a lot. They don’t buy any of the “victim” thing. Are they right about that, who knows ... but their world view explains reality well.
Bottom line: as adults we *must* advocate for our own interests. Nobody else is going to do it. If you can’t do that,, well ... it is what it is.
"When you're a star they let you grab them by the pussy."
The real reason lefties laughed at Trump is that he was a square.
Grab them by the pussy? Grab? Ridiculous.
Anyway, what is the basis of prog sexual morality these days?
It doesn't seem they object to anything on the basis of being inherently disordered, or lacking in true human love, or being a polyamorous perversion, or even one of the partners being under age (kids should be allowed to enjoy sex with adults, right?). So anything goes, except what a woman at some point, however many years after the fact, decides she didn't like?
Turns out, sex is a prog tool, too.
I guess a guy like Marilyn doesn't follow the "half your age plus 7" rule.
Wood was 19 — a teenager
But also past the age of consent.
Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women. Way to stay consistent with your corp [sic] beliefs.
Two of my core beliefs is that women need to be responsible for their actions once they’re adults, and, second, that even reprehensible individuals are entitled to the protections built into our legal system.
We are dealing with modern slavery of captured souls. The Concerts are designed to capture the mesmerized and drugged young people who attend to receive the thrill of spiritual bondage. Slave meets Master.
Stated more succinctly: some small percentage of females keep reinforcing all the “negative” things the PUA community says about them.
It doesn’t excuse guys like Manson, but it takes two to tango. You have agency, use it.
I’m skeptical. If she was 19, then it is a question if he raped her or not. If he seduced her, and she fell for the seduction, then I need something else to make me care. Like many others, nothing about Marilyn Manson was/is appeasing to me; not his name, appearance, or music. But I suspect his fame and money would be attractive to a Hollywood starlet looking for a break.
“ he broke her down through starvation and sleep deprivation”
Hm. Sounds like he took Petruchio’s master class in shrew-taming to heart:
“She ate no meat today, nor none shall eat.
Last night she slept not, nor tonight she shall not ...
And thus I’ll curb her mad and headstrong humor.”
Even Marilyn Manson said "Eeew!" when he heard about John Weaver at the Lincoln Project.
The Salem Witch Trials, the Fells Acres Daycare controversy, MeToo, etc. History is repeating itself again.
Manson and his guitarist were once on the Howard Stern show. The guitarist picked his nose and........I'll leave it at that. Has Manson been relevant the last 25 years? Was he ever?
Alice Cooper wannabe with no talent.
But the chicks loved him.
I wonder what they thought of the booger eater?
Cause she's a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star!
Mick sang it - she lived it. Another "it's not my fault". Is that the theme for this week?
wendybar said...
Nobody is siding with anybody, just wondering how you can be so dumb and BLIND when you are 19. They want to be considered an adult, until they don't.
2/2/21, 7:40 AM
For many women, not all but many, you can replace 19 with ANY age and it would still be true.
Of course, we listen to her because she’s stunning. If she were a toad, I, for one, wouldn’t give a crap. She got what toads allow themselves to get. What impresses me is that at the age of her grooming and shocking sensitive parts of her body, she was also allowed to vote for the leftie of her choice.
I guess the abuse never really ends.
- Krumhorn
Howard: the immediate consequences of your anti-Trump behavior include stripping important federal protections from my 12-year old rape victim neighbor who had to go through hell on earth to keep her illegal alien rapist-father behind bars.
That blood is on your hands and the hands of all people who opposed Trump immigration policies in any way, you sick bastard. Because, you know, elections have consequences. In this case, the consequence is this: a 12-year old is brutally sexually abused as her father, and all his priors, are protected by anti-Trump immigration extremists and their useful idiots.
I hope you have nightmares about this, useful idiot Howard. I hope someday you feel the pain that she felt, and also the fear that I feel, knowing that thug's extended family, including adult men, still live right next door to me. Knowing every time I go to get the mail, as I stare at their house and think about what that child suffered inside of it as I was gardening or planting flowers and never heard the terrified child cry out -- because people like you were protecting her rapist.
I now put two by fours across my doors at night, after learning details of the family domicile from the trial transcript. I think about it every time I'm walking on my own property.
How do your daughters sleep, Howard? Do they sleep without fear that a feral bunch of illegal rapists will come through their windows, thanks to your political choices? Do they? Will they blame you if they're raped and sodomized because of your political choices? Be a man and answer the questions.
@Jamie I was a month shy of my eighteenth birthday when it started. He wasn't older, but he was much more broken than I suspected (even though I knew he was "dark" and therefore romantic). I married the guy
I have always wondered to be honest, but it's not the type of thing you can ask about. If I had known this at that little reunion of ours, I would have kicked his ass. I wish I had been around when this was starting.
(And I don't care what his IQ test said, I was the smartest person in that school, until you showed up.)
WORD. I was a month shy of my eighteenth birthday when it started. He wasn't older, but he was much more broken than I suspected (even though I knew he was "dark" and therefore romantic).
It's wonderful when you're young and think your love will be enough to fix the damage in another person. No one has understood them like you do. No one has loved them enough. If you just have faith and show them the support they need, they will be a loving person too. As if. You should just throw your love into a black hole for all the good it does. It will never be enough and will never undo whatever damage they are living with.
It's easy for people on the outside looking in to say, just walk away. They don't understand how insidious it is. How someone can slowly, methodically take over your life like that. It is so nice in the beginning. It's storybook...but less romance and more like Cinderella in reverse. You start out as queen and end up being treated like an object.
The upside is, once you do get away, you recognize the early signs if you see them from someone else later on.
*****
Jamie, I'm glad you got away from that.
"Mr. Manson told Spin magazine in 2009 that he had called Ms. Wood 158 times one day after a breakup. “I have fantasies every day about smashing her skull in with a sledgehammer,” he said."
2009.
"Her story sounds credible and I sympathize with her but ... girls, ladies, you cannot seriously expect rock stars — especially “edgy” rock stars — to respect you or treat you well. Don’t be naive."
Boys, rock stars, you cannot seriously expect young women — especially informed, modern young women — to protect you and treat you well. Don’t be naive.
Blogger Big Mike said...
"Two of my core beliefs is that women need to be responsible for their actions once they’re adults . . ."
On the other hand, there is the actual feminist belief that women are special.
So we get: bad man is responsible! childhood trauma is responsible! sexism is responsible! the patriarchy is responsible! oh, and bad men generally are responsible!
Never: I sucked! I did wrong, totally! I am responsible!
I am open to refutation, seriously: have we seen any major non-BS mea culpas from women who failed in some significant way, morally or professionally?
Howard said...Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women. Way to stay consistent with your corp beliefs.
Interesting use of words from the fake Marine Corps hero.
Do you worry that someone you dated decades ago will come back to complain about your emotionally abusive behavior? You seem more than capable, given your abusive twitting here.
Do I give a crap about these people? not really.
who is telling the truth? Not that it matters in America - where lies and corruption are the bedrock of the media and one-party state.
This is what matters.
And he seemed like such a nice young man . . .
He said she said. I believe Marilyn.
"believe all women" only matters in a political context.
Does Marylin Manson give to the Democratic party? If yes - I'm certain Marylin Manson is innocent.
Apparently Rose McGowan, who used to date Marilyn Manson and is an outspoken supporter of the MeToo movement has put out a statement saying she stands with Evan. Notably no accusations of abuse by Marilyn made by her. In the interviews I've seen of Marilyn Manson he as always struck me as thoughtful. Of course that doesn't mean he wouldn't treat a young woman like shit. Bill Clinton strikes me as thoughtful, or at least he used to prior to his current cognitive state. And he has at the very least treated some women pretty terribly. Also what was the age of him and Monica at the time? I think he was 49 and she was 22?
So when Marilyn and Evan got together he was 38 and she was 19? I don't know what kind of meaningful relationship two people can have that have that big of an age difference. And despite her being an adult and responsible for her own actions that doesn't mean society has to or should turn a blind eye to relationships like these. I don't have any children but if my niece was 19 and some guy in his mid to late 20's, let alone 38, started knocking on the door alarm bells would be going off. I've heard the 'rule' regarding acceptable age difference is half the age plus seven. So if Marilyn Manson was 38 the youngest 'acceptable' age of a woman he should date would have been 26. That certainly seems a lot better to me than the 19 year old.
Ms. Wood was a strong, liberated woman who was old enough to make her own choices and reject social norms.
Until it comes out that she was a immature teenage who was seduced by a destructive controller.
If she were mature now, she would realize the mistakes that led her here, but that would mean rejecting her earlier right to be as bad as she wants. Instead, it’s all his fault.
Sounds like Manson has a breach of contract suit, unless Wood has actual proof of abuse.
Boys, rock stars, you cannot seriously expect young women — especially informed, modern young women — to protect you and treat you well. Don’t be naive.
They don't, and women have been bitching about it for at least a decade.
But he seemed like such a nice young man....
I read Manson's autobiography in 1998. Any woman that dated him after that book came out really has no one to blame but themselves.
What Jamie said reminds me of a line from "The Vow", about the NVXIM cult. One of the guys who was really active and then left said,
"Nobody sets out to join a cult. They join a good thing"
That seems applicable to bad relationships, too. To so many things. I'm glad you are ok now.
I'm not sure what to say about Evan Rachel Wood. It's entirely plausible he saw it as consensual and she now sees it as abusive. Neither of them joined a bad relationship. They joined a good thing. But it went wrong, and it seems almost impossible for us to untangle. How would we rewrite 50 Shades of Gray? Happily ever after, or accusations of abuse?
Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be groupies
Don't let them chase dangerous boys or be treated like sluts
Let'em be actors and brand ambassadors and such
Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be groupies
They'll use media to condemn when they're forced into S&M
By someone who they thought was in love
"Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women”
What age do they stop being young and vulnerable Mr Feminist? The way we Trumpers are consistent is we don’t cop to stuff we don’t believe in pathetic attempt to score young trim.
I personally think that the age of consent for women especially, but men too, should be raised to 21, as well as the voting age, since the brain doesn’t stop developing until about 26, but 26 seems a little extreme. Since that is considered a retrograde position these days, I will be a good little ‘d’ democrat and go with the law as written, not some law that whipsaws around on the whim of a twitter mob.
I didn’t read past ’19’ but if she really was abused, leave her age out of it and make your case as the adult, trusted with the vote and the right to sign contracts and the obligation to honor them, that you are.
Mary Beth, 9:07:
"It's easy for people on the outside looking in to say, just walk away. They don't understand how insidious it is."
Well said.
Jamie, I'm glad you could get out of that.
I'm happy to believe anything she says, but like many here, I believe you get what it says on the tin. If you date Marilyn Manson, you're going to get *Marilyn Manson*, and my sympathy can only extend so far. More pertinently, one can feel, in hindsight, that one was not in a position of consent in a relationship- the problem is whether your assailant believes there is consent. I believe her, but I also believe him. He's clearly a dysfunctional fellow, but again... *Marilyn Manson*...
Jamie, I am glad you are here! Well done getting away from that.
It's entirely plausible he saw it as consensual and she now sees it as abusive.
@Maybee, it’s entirely plausible that she saw it as consensual then and looking back she sees it as abusive now. It’s a pity that some people learn a tough lesson the hard way, but as long as young women feel attracted to “bad boys” things like this are going to happen. Really, when are women like you and Althouse going to try to educate young women on making better decisions about boyfriends and lovers? Or did you try but give it up as hopeless?
Anything about Marilyn Manson – and I am shaken to learn he may not be a good guy in his personal life – reminds me of this, from The Onion at the top of its form:
Marilyn Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People
Laslo Spatula said...
The cliches about trailer parks translates to Hollywood, too.
As well as politics
Given her testimony, her plea is that the age of consent should be 21 or higher.
At what point did she realize this degenerate was a degenerate?
Yeah, what Blair said.
Thanks for all the kind wishes! Some of you sound as if you've been there too - I hope your lives are all as much better as mine is now. And, I am who I am now in part because of my experiences while young and stupid, so I can't truly regret those years. I wouldn't have recognized what I have in my now-husband of almost 30 years if I hadn't first been compelled to realize that volatility, anger, bitterness, and insecurity were signs not of a romantic genius but of a deeply troubled person.
Gahrie, his life has well and truly kicked his ass, I understand. I only feel sorry for him now.
The only clue was that he chose to rename himself after Charles Manson. But in HerWorld that wasn't a clue.
She is the daughter of Ira David Wood III, he of the 3 names and a number. While only a minor player in New York and Hollywood, he was a cultural big shot back home in North Carolina and the only person I ever heard of that made a full time living as a actor there.
Coming from a theatrical family I suspect she's known her share of perverts and wierdos, and by 19 could probably spot one as quickly as a veteran vice cop. So I'm not really buying the abused innocent angle here.
This is forcing me to rethink the 18 year olds voting thing. 21 25 somewhere in there. Also making me rethink in loco parentis at colleges. Women need hours in the dorm until they are 20 at the very least.
There's a reason they used to treat adulthood as 21 and treat 18 and 19 year olds as teenagers.
"Netflix on line 1."
In many ways this reminds me of the story of Timothy Treadwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell
He loved bears. He respected bears. They thrilled him, and he wanted to spend as much time with them as he could, up close and personal. After all, he meant them no ill will, and he loved them enough that they surely could sense it and would never do him any harm.
One day, camping in a high traffic area for bears with his girlfriend, they were both killed and eaten by bears.
I'm not comparing bears to people, but if you are attracted to someone because they are edgy, wild, uncontrollable and dangerous you may find that they remain so despite the fact that you love them SOOO much. They remain responsible for any evil they do, but you retain some responsibility as well for the choice you made that put your in a position of peril.
"Wood was 19 — a teenager"
Wood was 19 — a legal adult in all 50 states
Behold the infantilization of America.
I'm going to assume that she made up for it by making Jamie (Billy Elliot) Bell's life a living hell when they were married ...
It does read horribly -- I assume the NYTimes wants this -- when you read teenager and conjure up an 8th grader at 13. But the reality -- 19 -- a legal adult responsible for her own decisions -- is a good deal different, isn't it?
I'm with the "why should I care?" mob. Corps. Whatever.
Soma sad tales here, really, but bad boys have always made girls hot. My late friend Bob was a classic example: emotionally controlling and verbally abusive to the women in his life, and he got more pussy by far than I ever did. (OTOH a lot of it was skank, and he married two.)
The age of consent, whatever the arbitrary number chosen, is just that. I'm no more bothered by 39 into 19 than I am by 90 into 19 or 19 into 90, and find all the "I'da whupped his ass!" amusing.
Narr
I miss Bob
His alter ego is Charles Monroe. I saw it on the internets.
Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails) wrote a song about Marilyn Manson, called Starfuckers, Inc.
My god sits in the back of the limousine
My god comes in a wrapper of cellophane
My god pouts on the cover of the magazine
My god is a shallow little bitch trying to make the scene
I have arrived and this time you should believe the hype
I listened to everyone now I know that everyone was right
I'll be there for you as long as it works for me
I play a game it's called insincerity
I am every fucking thing and just a little more
I sold my soul but don't you dare call me a whore
And when I suck you off not a drop will go to waste
It's really not so bad you know once you get past the taste
All our pain
How did you think we'd get by without you?
You're so vain
I bet you think this song is about you
Dont you?
Dont you?
Dont you?
Now I belong, I'm one of the beautiful ones
Starfuckers, Inc.
I have become
OK, I have to say this.
I'm Mr. Old School, Neanderthal, conservative on gender issues as we all know. My first instinct is to defend and protect women, it's who I am and how I was raised. Now that I have recently learned of an abusive relationship, I feel actual guilt that I didn't intervene.
It was explained to me several times in college that I am too paternalistic, and that women are strong enough to take care of themselves, they don't need my protection, and if I respected them, I would understand that. What no one seems to understand is, I can respect a woman, and want to protect her at the same time. In fact if I like and/or respect them, it strengthens the urge.
So now, when I do treat women in these situations the same way I would treat a man, I get the "how can you be so cruel?" reaction. But ask yourself, if this had been a female singer, and a male teenager... would anyone be outraged? Would the story have even been written? There's no way she would have been fired already.
Gusty Winds said...
Sometimes Satan hides underneath the veneer of some normal looking dude like NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo.
** This comes to my mind also. How is a Manson different from a Cuomo?
Was Manson in the Lincoln Project?
Tim in Vermont. Age is correlated with maturity and agency although it's a spectrum, not a bright line or an either or. Therefore, her age is a factor morally, not legally. It's true, I'm a male chauvinist pig, but for some reason, women like me.
A serial killers last name.
Charles Manson never killed anyone.
Howard said...
Trumpers siding with an abuser of young vulnerable women. Way to stay consistent with your corp (sic) beliefs.
I did not vote for Trump. I would never vote for Trump. I do not vote at all. I do not support Trump in any context. I spent years helping minor, homeless females exit prostitution at great risk to my personal safety. I think Evan Rachel Wood is solely responsible for the decisions she made as an adult. In fact, I am skeptical of her currant claims.
Therefore:
Fuck you Howard, you one-trick asshole.
(PS I have asked time and time again how to block commenters on this site and nothing anyone suggested has worked. Ann, how about a tutorial?)
Blogger Wince said...
Even Marilyn Manson said "Eeew!" when he heard about John Weaver at the Lincoln Project.
Correction: the Lincoln Tunnel Project
Mary Beth @ 7:22 am: You hit the nail on the head! A close family member of mine married a guy just like you describe. She wasn’t a teenager at that time like Rachel Evan Wood as she was in her mid-20’s when she married. Her husband was a control freak on steroids. He kept her away from family and friends and just totally controlled what she could do at anytime. It took a mental breakdown for her to see what a control freak her husband was and filed for divorce shortly after leaving the hospital.
When the target in question is an adult, what's the difference between grooming and wooing?
Tim in Vermont. Age is correlated with maturity and agency although it's a spectrum, not a bright line or an either or
Time. How does it fucking work?
Balfegor @ 8:10: That said, she also seems sort of like she would have angrily rejected such counsel in the moment.
This seems to be the nut of the problem. I'm not a psychologist, but having 50 years as an adult, I've learned a few things about human behavior. When one is young and impressionable, you can be lead into dangerous liaisons. Also, many people are attracted to risky behaviors and simply don't have the context to foresee the potential outcomes.
Also, people who have persona's such as this Marilyn Manson type give me the willies. I am repulsed now and would also have been at age 18.
There's no accounting for taste, especially when fame and money are involved, but I just don't see how a woman could be attracted to this repulsive worm of a rock star.
"I don't find the argument that she should have known better at 19 convincing."
By the time she was 19 she had been selling her ass in Hollywood for over a decade. She would have had an agent, an entourage and powerful contacts galore, and money - lots of money. The idea that she was a helpless ingénue is nonsense.
The Marilyn Manson character is a stage act, much like Alice Cooper and Gene Simmons from Kiss.
It's all BS.
"(PS I have asked time and time again how to block commenters on this site and nothing anyone suggested has worked. Ann, how about a tutorial?)"
Left click next to the name and the comment rolls up. Or scroll past and don't read that commenter.
Both tricks work for me.
I was once in an abusive relationship. Leaving was tricky. I enlisted one person to help. The End.
Skippy-
C. Manson helped kill Bobby Hinman. With a sword.
Did you miss the news item about the LA DA will not permit his office to oppose parole anymore? The other person who killed Hinman came up for parole and the board approved it.
Gavin Newsome is probably not stupid enough to approve it.
Given the background of Ms. Wood it would not surprise me in the slightest that her grooming started long before she hit it big in LA. If you read the "Crazy Days and Nights" blog often enough you see this is an evergreen source for this kind of stuff.
0_0 said...
Skippy-
C. Manson helped kill Bobby Hinman. With a sword.
Did you miss the news item about the LA DA will not permit his office to oppose parole anymore? The other person who killed Hinman came up for parole and the board approved it.
Gavin Newsome is probably not stupid enough to approve it.
I appreciate the education. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvjxePsmYqg&feature=youtu.be
Readering,
There's a reason they used to treat adulthood as 21 and treat 18 and 19 year olds as teenagers.
Is that the case? I thought it was all the other way around, that behavior and responsibilities once available to younger people have now been restricted to older ones.
The age of consent (as someone says above) has gone way up; in the late 19th c., I believe it was 12 or even younger in many states. Drinking age has gone up. Age to enlist in the military has gone up. (It was 16 in WWI, and kids eager to enlist but not yet 16 lied to get in.) The only thing I can think of that has gone down (and there are proposals to lower it still further) is voting age.
150 years ago or so, it was not at all uncommon for a woman of 18 to be married, living apart from her parents, with a home and a husband and a couple of kids. That profile is still possible today, but extremely rare. You'll find 18-year-old girls on their own with a couple of kids, sure, but how many are married? Or own a house, however tiny?
This has been known in celebrity gossip world for awhile. She was actually 17 when they started dating and his relationship with her broke up his marriage to Dita Von Teese
Re: Michelle Dulak Thompson:
150 years ago or so, it was not at all uncommon for a woman of 18 to be married, living apart from her parents, with a home and a husband and a couple of kids.
Not uncommon, perhaps, but it doesn't seem to have been the norm. Here's a study estimating mean and median age of marriage for English women based on the 1861 census. Means for counties are mostly higher than medians and medians range from 22 to just under 25. That's apparently a decrease from the end of the 18th century, when the mean age at first marriage for women was apparently 26.
150 years ago or so, it was not at all uncommon for a woman of 18 to be married, living apart from her parents, with a home and a husband and a couple of kids.
You don’t need to go back a century and a half. I graduated high school in 1964 and a lot of my female classmates got married not long after completing high school. A few years back I heard from an old flame from those days. She’s a great-grandmother, with 5 great grandkids (probably more by now). Our high school covered a bunch of blue color municipalities south of the city of Chicago.
"'m a male chauvinist pig, but for some reason, women like me.”
That’s a secret that young men don’t get. Women like me too, even when I don’t say things I don’t believe to try to get on their good side. But sorry, in the law it is a bright line. It has to be, unless you are arguing that we should be living under the rule of men and not of law. Which does seem to be the case right now, that’s for sure. Doesn’t mean I have to like it.
"Boys, rock stars, you cannot seriously expect young women — especially informed, modern young women — to protect you and treat you well. Don’t be naive."
In which Althouse learns that it's entirely possible for both sides of a dispute to be morally bankrupt, immature, and just plain wrong.
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