In one scene, the Wednesday character, cast as Pocahontas in a children’s Thanksgiving play, goes off script to take violent revenge on the Pilgrims. “You have taken the land which is rightfully ours,” she calmly seethes. “Years from now, my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans and drink highballs.”
That's from an NYT article, "The Thanksgiving Myth Gets a Deeper Look This Year For many Native Americans, the Covid-19 toll and the struggle over racial inequity make this high time to re-examine the holiday, and a cruel history."
Is this year a particularly good time to revisit the negative side of the origins of Thanksgiving?
At first, I thought no. For millions of Americans, Thanksgiving is a tradition within their own family's story, and that tradition is sadly disrupted by the pandemic. Many of us have recently lost loved ones, and we all have suffered for almost a year from the enforced distance from family and friends and that separation feels especially awful with the approach of Thanksgiving — the holiday that has come to mean gathering indoors with a big group of people we love. It's about love, family, and food, not being upper middle class (which is what that "cardigans and highballs" business is supposed to mean).
But then I thought, sure, why not? Why not pile on and kick people while they're down? We're already feeling terrible. Give us something else to feel terrible about. We're deprived of loving warmth we'd come to expect at this time of year, so fling open the window and make it as cold as possible. Can't do Thanksgiving this year? Well, you should have never been doing Thanksgiving anyway, so let's just call this Year 1 of America Without Thanksgiving, and let's try to think of other sacrifices you need to make.
Stop asking what am I thankful for. Start asking what more can I give up.
AND: Let's consume the entire Addams Family scene:Wait, we can not break bread with you. You have taken the land which is rightfully ours. Years from now my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans, and drink highballs. We will sell our bracelets by the road sides, and you will play golf, and eat hot hors d'oeuvres. My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They said do not trust the pilgrims, especially Sarah Miller. And for all of these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your village to the ground.
१७३ टिप्पण्या:
What more can we give up? For starters, under a Biden admin:
Freedom of speech
Jobs
Consistent electricity in our homes
You seem to be living in some fantasy world where the patina is the actual substance. Maybe it's a happy place to be I don't know
https://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/165havel.html
Well it is the NYT. We’ve tried to demolish one them of American settlement via the 1619 project. Why not demolish the other, the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving.
Face it America is a horrible place...And that’s why we elected Joe Biden.
Stop asking what am I thankful for. Start asking what more can I give up.
They won't be asking.
If I promise to give up Thanksgiving, will the NYT stop lecturing me about utter bullshit like “racial inequities”?
Can anyone even give me a definition for “equity” as used by these bullies, thieves and posers? I mean, other than “give us your stuff”?
At Thanksgiving this year, I will break out my cardigan, forego the highball (don't drink), and regal my guests with historical tales of Indian atrocities.
THEOLDMAN
Pass the gravy, please.
They don't need to ask. They just have to look at your data to know what you want. Then they can tell you what you should want, and find the right algorithm to direct you to that place in your mind.
The Times and Post plus all the social media tools, dedicated to the service of the gleichschaltung. You'll love it! No, really!
You Will. Love. It. Science!
Progressives won't be happy until everybody hates everybody else, if you haven't noticed.
Years from now, my people will have the option of living in mobile homes on reservations, which your people won't have. Your people will wear cardigans and drink highballs.
Everybody wins.
Rest of Wednesday's quote:
"And for all of these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your village to the ground."
nyet: "I always start with histories of dispossession as a way of contextualizing why food sovereignty has become such an urgent contemporary project,"
LOL. Nice hobby; the trick is getting taxpayers to pay you for it.
"regale", not "regal" Typing too fast. My apologies
Baby, it's cold inside...
I’ve concluded that COVID has been a great character revealer.
No link to the scene in the movie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJE3KDxTbWI
I love that movie, and I love Thanksgiving.
Thanksgiving plans are still on in our household. The next day is a big family wedding; the third I will have attended since the pandemic. If our political elites can do it, then I'm sure it is safe for me to do as well.
The best time to kick someone is when they are down. Here is my kick to these evil assholes: FOAD. I might just pull out a cardigan (that's a sweater, right?) and mix up a highball or two. Actually, I prefer an Old Fashioned made with decent bourbon. Decent, not the higher quality sipping stuff.
Don't worry, we'll always have Lent (Yom Kippur for our Hebrew friends) ...
https://www.acouplecooks.com/whiskey-highball/
My brother and his girlfriend were in town a couple of weeks ago on vacation. Since it's Florida, we are living relatively normal lives, not shut down. We all got together on their last full day here and Shelly cooked a full Thanksgiving dinner with all the trimmings, since they would be back in Kansas for the real Thanksgiving. We had a great time not living in fear of COVID. Highly recommended for all.
Indians that assimilate do fine. Stay on a reservation and you're in poverty.
Lyz Jaakola, 52, a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa
Plenty of Finndians up in the North Country ...
Phil 314 said...
...And that’s why we elected Joe Biden.
"What this 'we,' white man?"
/tonto
Blogger stevew said...
"I prefer an Old Fashioned made with decent bourbon. Decent, not the higher quality sipping stuff."
Try Two Stars bourbon out of Louisville KY. Reasonable quality and price, a little bite, good for mixing. Not sippin' whiskey but fine for a Manhattan or Old Fashioned.
This year, those of us who paid off our student loans or went to a trade school should be thankful that we'll have the privilege of paying off our asshole liberal neighbors' Gender Studies degree. Thanks Biden!
Actually, nah. Trump will win this. I was getting pretty hopeless, but hope begins to return. The evidence of fraud is just getting too overwhelming now.
I repeat; they left has no animous to Thanksgiving and Christmas. These 100 stories (always the same, names and places changed to protected the simple minded)that run every single year do not mean what they plainly say.
Why are you upset about this? These are the people you support doing this.
I always get my validation from spoof cartoons made for the big screen.
Some of my best memories are of the community Thanksgiving dinners pit on by an alliance of 6-7 churches in our town. As a kid awakening early to be there by 5am to start with the set up, then later years doing the cooking as well. Was something to see high end town leaders sitting shoulder to shoulder with the struggling single mom living in a mobile home.
Wish it was like that everyday, but am grateful to have that as a childhood memory even if just for one day.
Thanks hawkeyedjb, will give that a go.
I would like to note that even in this year of ridiculousness and amid the evil demands of my government and its sycophants, I have much to be thankful for and will celebrate it all with my family Thanksgiving weekend.
In 1634, my ancestor Seth Ward bought 60 acres on which the previous settlers had been massacred a dozen years before. It's now part of the Defense General Supply Center below Richmond. Thanks, Indians, for making the land available and affordable.
Start asking what more can I give up.
To start with???
Every last G-Damned Karen on Earth. (male and female versions)
Journalists.
Social media dictacrats.
Un-elected bureaucrats who want to rule our lives.
Corrupt Politicians (that would be about 95% of them. Good riddance)
Entrenched government employees clogging up the system and subverting the voters choices...FBI, CIA, County...everywhere.
Mosquitoes and soy burgers.
Edit: deleted first comment cuz extra spaces at the end and I know Althouse doesn't like that :-)
Bitter stunted people who are not thankful about anything tell us We Are Doing It Wrong.
Daddy Issues America.
I am Laslo.
If you read the story of Squanto (Tisquantum), the Indian who rescued the Pilgrims, you clearly see the bitter warfare between Indian tribes that European settlers encountered. The Indians were no angels, and, of course, neither were the Europeans.
That's life.
Plus, when the Pilgrims arrived somewhere between 70 to 90 percent of all the local Indians had died from a some unknown plague, possibly introduced by European settlers. The same thing happened wherever the two civilizations met.
It seems no one wore masks.
WTF Ann
I'm not giving up Thanksgiving without a fight. You can take my turkey leg from my cold dead hand
First they came for Thanksgiving and I did not speak out because it was never my favorite holiday...
Wake up Mamaw, it's time for the Rending of Garments.
I am Laslo.
The irony is that the encounter of the Western world with Indian cultures is misunderstood even worse by the race panderers than by those who push the Pilgrim fathers image uncritically. In fact, both sides were equally barbaric and violent beyond comprehension. Thanksgiving is actually a holiday instituted at a time when this nation was transcending one of the worst forms of that barbarism, slavery, during the Civil War. You'd think these people who put up signs announcing that hate has no place in their homes could set their hatred of America aside for one day to celebrate what they claim to care about.
The goal has always been to eliminate the common bonds of culture, history, and tradition that tie people together, so all that is left is tribalism.
the catharsis she felt as a young woman watching the movie 'Addams Family Values,
When your opinions are shaped by fictional movies you might want to rethink how you go about determining reality.
Thanksgiving is less about the Pilgrim's and Native Americans than it is about taking a day, just one fucking day, to be left alone and apart from the scolds, and be allowed to give thanks for what we do have. For our families, friends. Our own lives- small and racist as they may be.
And though our families may have some of those same scolds within the clan, it is a day when we can all be in the same room so we can tell them to their face just what we think of them and their wokeness.
Then we can eat good food, drink, and hope that the Lions game is finally over.
"When the gales of November come early..."
"I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, other people get it, too. They realize how ridiculous the whole image of Thanksgiving is." Said "Lyz Jaakola, 52, a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa...
Isn't saying "like, oh my gosh" at age 52 a greater surrender to white cultural imperialism than, like, mobile homes, highballs, cardigans and Gordon Lightfoot combined?
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called Gitche Gumee
Superior, they said, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early
Yeah the natives never killed each other in sadistic and barbaric ways and took each others’ stuff and land and enslaved each others’ children and sex trafficked each others’ young women. It was like the Garden of Eden all up in here before whitey showed up. Just like in Africa before while people invented slavery.
OK, I'll try to come to the defence of one of my favourite movies.
1. The camp organizers try to keep everything as lily-white, blond haired and blue eyed, heterosexual and non-disabled, wholesome and smiling, as possible. They present Thanksgiving as a well-deserved victory of their kind of people over the other people.
2. Little Wednesday is not offered any leading role because she never smiles (when she does she looks even creepier), she doesn't want to watch Disney movies, and she's too brunette or something. She and her slavish boyfriend gravitate to the excluded outsiders.
3. You can question whether "Addams Family Values" would really agree with today's progressives (why shouldn't the weak suffer?) but they never want to go along with what is merely popular, and the wholesome people are never their people.
4. The camp puts on Thanksgiving as theatre; in some ways Wednesday's play is better.
5. At its best Thanksgiving can bring people who hate each other to the same dinner table for a few hours. Maybe not with Trump admirers vs. Trump haters.
But the Indians and Pilgrims worked together... Squanto showed them how to farm. Massiquot brought game and attended the feast. They named the state after him!!!!! What are these people learning in history class.
Also, fuck off, “Lyz.” You’re welcome to find some land and go live in a dugout with willow bark for medical care and die in childbirth as some sub chiefs third wife if you want. Renounce the internet and the English language and movies if all you can do is bitch.
"Why not pile on and kick people while they're down?" Eric Blair had something to say about that: "A boot stamping on a human face. Forever."
In the spirit of Big T season, I'm thankful for the Covid virus for one thing: my wife and I have a graceful out from having to spend the Friday-after at her son-in-law's parents.
Nasty, self-important, Palm Beach Leftists, I won't have to listen to their endless sermons on solar power, electric cars, and every other virtue signaling topic they can think of, and the inexorable snide political remarks. Like most Leftists, they can't help themselves.
I do like their son, which is why I made the effort to go in previous years.
I like it when the myth of the wise, peaceful native is swallowed whole by the natives. Life in pre-Columbian N. America was one of violence and unimaginable cruelty. This culture remained when Europeans landed and a new, weaker class of victims could be exploited. Then more Europeans arrived. History.
My wifes family is large and lives close by. They are almost all democrats so there will be no family thanks giving. My side is far flung and more amenable to contact, but, alas, travel become a problem. So I will make TG dinner for just the two of us.
Thanksgiving is about giving thanks to God. Don’t listen to people who claim it for their pet causes.
https://www.jbrokaw.com/2016/11/thanksgiving-is-about-giving-thanks-to.html
This Thanksgiving will be like every one since our marriage. Husband and I will have dinner. Alone.
Just us because all of our family lives very far away, some are still working, going to school, have small children/babies, are in the military and it is too difficult with weather conditions to all get together. We can Skype. This year, we have lost both of our remaining parents, a sister and some close friends. NONE due to Covid.
We will visit during the day with some friends who are in similar positions. Have a drink and share some home made treats. We will toast to our dead and long distance relatives over our dinner. Be thankful for the life that we have built together and hope that we can continue in peace. Watch a movie and go to bed early under our down comforter.
We will also be thankful that we are older and won't have to put up with this bullshit that is occurring much longer. I would hate to be 20 years old right now. It is going to get much worse and for a longer time before it gets better. We will pray (even though we are not really religious) for our younger family and the rest of the world that the future doesn't get as bad as we fear.
"Your people will wear cardigans and drink highballs"
Somewhere on the Internet I found a lengthy review of the movie in question that said it was all about some Jewish screenwriter's endless resentment that Grampaw couldn't get into his preferred country club. (Never seen it, couldn't comment)
Year Zero, Althouse, not Year One. The Left always turns to Year Zero in recreating humanity.
Not just a death cult. A miserable death cult.
I mean, there could be a joyful, grateful death cult, but that's not the death cult our elites worship.
Wednesday's supposed to be a precocious obnoxious pre-teen. That is not meant as an aspirational state for America's adults. I still like the movie, and the incomparable Raoul Julia and Angelica Huston.
Because “The Addams Family” is the gold standard for American History.
I think Blutto Blutarski is better sourced and more nuanced in his analysis.
From link above at my blog:
George Washington issued the first Thanksgiving proclamation in 1789 to set aside “a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God.” This should surprise no one, really; the act of giving thanks requires someone to give thanks to.
How many people know this? About 2% of our population, is my guess. That’s criminal.
Me and my SO’s family live far away, so that’s out of the question this year. We were going to do dinner, just the two of us, but our friends who live close by just invited us to dinner at theirs, so I think that’ll be the plan.
Who started it again
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/native-american-history/king-philips-war
Laslo you are a treasure. And I loved Wednesday's scene in that movie - she's perfect in that role! Happy Thanksgiving all - don't let the haters get you down!
"Ask not...." - John Kennedy
"Stop asking what am I thankful for. Start asking what more can I give up." - Today's left.
Nicely summarized, teach.
"Lighten up, Francis." -- Sgt. Hulka
"Give us something else to feel terrible about." When I need something new to care about, I go to NPR.
That's straight up cultural appropriation.
You want to know where this kind of thinking gets you? Read up on King Philip's War. It was terrible for the colonists, and worse for the natives.
Hence the link up top, sounds a little like the kerfluffles between the israelis and the bedouin.
I'm going to go to the local mental ward, start a newspaper, and call it The New York Times.
King phillips war was 50 years later, like the jugurthan war prompted by thr upstart king of pontus.
"Wednesday's supposed to be a precocious obnoxious pre-teen. That is not meant as an aspirational state for America's adults."
Can you say Greta Thunburg? I knew you could.
As long as we're being urged to consider the whole story, look with clear eyes at Wednesday's vision. It entailed terrorism and genocide.
The Left considers that a feature, not a bug.
Don't celebrate it then. Go to work. Shut up. Nobody cares if you don't celebrate being Thankful...Just be the miserable little fucks you have been for the last 12 years. Why change??
The treaties were abrograted by an arrogant prince. Who chose poorly.
Most of our Thanksgiving traditions have nothing to do with the first Thanksgiving, but it is historically inaccurate to say that the Pilgrims were living on stolen land. They weren't. And they had good relations with the Indians (which wouldn't have been possible if they had stolen the land). In fact, generations of Europeans had good relations with the Indians before population pressures put the two groups in competition. Which is no one's fault. It's just the way things work.
Biden won, so his supporters who hate the USA are celebrating by telling us all that we should hate the USA too.
"I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, other people get it, too. They realize how ridiculous the whole image of Thanksgiving is."
Said "Lyz Jaakola, 52, a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, recall[ing] the catharsis she felt as a young woman watching the movie 'Addams Family Values,' a dark comedy released in 1993":
Wonder how many highballs she'd consumed before she had that epiphany?
I love Adams Family Values, but it's not something to build a philosophy of life on.
"You have taken the land which is rightfully ours."
Get Off This Estate - A Poem
‘Get off this estate.’
‘What for?’
‘Because it’s mine.’
‘Where did you get it?’
‘From my father.’
‘Where did he get it?’
‘From his father.’
‘And where did he get it?’
‘He fought for it.’
‘Well, I’ll fight you for it.’
Carl Sandburg
“If you read the story of Squanto (Tisquantum), the Indian who rescued the Pilgrims, you clearly see the bitter warfare between Indian tribes that European settlers encountered. The Indians were no angels, and, of course, neither were the Europeans.”
“That's life.”
The Indians weren’t conquered because we hated them (though some did) but because, for the most part they were underutilizing the land (arguably, the Five Civilized Tribes were shipped to OK in a naked land grab, because they actually were, apparently, good farmers). But, as others have noted above, the Indians constantly raided, fought, and killed each other.
We had one of the, if not the, earliest semi permanent white settlements in W MT in our area. David Thompson, working for a Canadian/British fur trading company, came into the area a couple years after Lewis and Clark had come through a bit to the South. Thomson established a fur trading post that survived for maybe 20 years. His journals make interesting reading. The local Indian tribes (Salish, Flathead, Kalispell) befriended them, and eagerly traded furs and critical food for tobacco, rifles, and powder. Thompson’s party probably wouldn’t have lasted the first winter, without their help. One of the interesting things though is that there would be a Blackfoot (who mostly lived at the time east of the Continental Divide) sighting, and a group of Salish would jump on their horses, and take off after them. Needless to say, when they caught the Blackfoot interlopers, they killed them. But there were a lot of false alarms. But the trading post ultimately failed when the friendly Salish were pushed west by the much less friendly Blackfoot. Turns out, they were being pushed west themselves by plains tribes - likely the Crow, pushed themselves by the Sioux, who by then had undergone a population boom, due to now being able to follow the huge bison herds, using horses, instead of having to wait for the bison to come to them a couple times a year.
This was just the way it was, with stronger tribes pushing out weaker tribes, and those, in turn, pushing out even weaker tribes. All with significant bloodshed.
But it isn’t just Native Americans. Much of our history is a result of just this sort of forced migration where one group of people grew, often for some technological reason, and pushed out their neighbors, who did the same, often resulting in large movements of people over extended distances. All with a lot of attendant bloodshed. The technological reason might have bee better farming practices, or the use of chariots, or stirrups, or even lactose tolerance (that apparently allowed the Mongols to being their food supply along with them).
And it wasn’t just our species doing this. Humans and Neanderthals apparently lived less than harmoniously by each other for better than a hundred thousand years. It looks now that Neanderthals came out of Africa and settled much of Europe first. When humans came out, they found Europe, in particular, but also much of Asia, already filled with their relatives. There was a lot of neighborly bloodshed, and it looks like they initially kicked our butts, effectively forcing our species to retreat to Africa. We tried it again later, and ultimately prevailed. We don’t know if the last Neanderthals died at our hands, or we just reduced their population dow below the level needed to breed. It has been suggested that the reason that we ultimately prevailed was that we began rudimentary farming that allowed us to live more densely, ultimately overcoming their advantages in strength and ability to live in harsher climates with our numbers.
OK, I've had some coffee and see that a link to the scene was provided. Embedded even.
As the democrats constantly tell southerners as they tear down all of their history, “you lost, get over it”.
This is all middle-class liberal bullshit. Listen paleface, if you feel so sorry for the Indians having their land stolen, then give your property deed to the nearest Indian tribe and go back where you came from. Otherwise, you're just a receiver of stolen property.
BTW, I've noticed that these "lo, the poor Indian" types are impervious to historical facts and arguments. No, they just hate the white settlers and their descendants, and want to virtue signal as being so "concerned" about the "poor Indians". Unlike those nasty Bad Whites who don't.
The thing that really shows how awful white settlers were here is how they treated the native population so much worse than they treated each other back home.
The Vikings, Celts, French, British, Romans were always like, "Oh, this is your land? So sorry! Do you care to share? Let's have tea and wine and celebrate diversity!"
Then those people came to the US and were all ugly and killy. All because of racism and not at all because that's how people used to treat each other.
Metacom (King Philip) was Massasoit's son. Needless to say, relations had deteriorated from 1620 to 1675 for reasons alluded to above. The Native American alliance set out to annihilate the colonists across New England. The reverse happened. A sad story indeed, but one reflected in Wednesday's little speech and mostly peaceful riot.
Don't start things you can't finish.
alanc709 said...
Why are you upset about this? These are the people you support doing this.
11/18/20, 6:50 AM
Althouse loves it. She's getting what she asked for. Good and hard.
Althouse feeds the meme that all women want to be dragged off into a cave and raped. You get the man, you get the sex, you get the baby, but since ostensibly you had no hand in the decision making, you need never be grateful nor take any responsibility.
Althouse loves Big Brother. She craves the mouthful of egg salad, forever.
Since I've read several Marlon Brando Biography I understand the liberal/left-wing, almost always well-to-do, types that lap this kinda of stuff up. Brando was a millionaire actor who lived in a mansion and hated average white people. His constant "White people are so terrible, so racist, and so genocidal" was always about HIM being better than everyone else. It also allowed him to play the "Great White Father" to the various Indian tribes he supported. What an ego boost for him!
Brando constantly TALKED about the Indians, and how Horrible we Americans are. But other than giving the Indians a few worthless acres of land, its impossible to find any evidence he gave much of his $millions to them. Where are the Brando Indian medical clinics, scholarships, drug treatment centers, or schools? If he gave any money it was to radical extreme groups that did nothing except kill FBI agents.
He'd love this NYT article.
It's like all you people have inherited parchment thin skin from the Donald. How dare anyone challenge the 1947 Walt Disney history of the United States. You're White Fragility is showing.
I'm celebrating Thanksgiving the Native way. I'm going to walk over to the next village, burn down some houses, kidnap some women for a little fun later, maybe capture a couple of the dudes so I can enjoy torturing them to death. Such great fun until whitey showed up with all his rules and stuff.
As for the history, talking historical facts is like throwing pebbles in the ocean. The main killer of the Indians was disease, the source of which was unknown to everyone before about 1850. The number of Indians who died of starvation or by violence numbers in the thousands. And the Indians gave as good as they got.
They were also paid, in current currency, what their land was worth. The land became valuable because white Englishmen settled it, and made it into productive farm and cattle land. This the "Lo the poor Indian" stuff has been going on since James Fenimore Cooper. Even Grant was saying we needed to help the Indians more in 1872.
The Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts and set up a settlement on land gifted to them from all the governments of Europe who appreciated their practice of religion and wanted them to get first dibs on setting up neighborhoods in the new country.
So like the NYT and the Left as a whole to tear apart everything that is good and wholesome about our history. Thanksgiving is not a myth, BTW.
The technological reason might have bee better farming practices, or the use of chariots, or stirrups, or even lactose tolerance (that apparently allowed the Mongols to being their food supply along with them).
Often it was the discovery of Iron. The book of Judges states that the Philistines were kicking the Israelite's asses because the Philistines had iron weapons and the Israelite tribes could not produce iron weapons.
And in 1 Samuel 13:19 it is stated that the Philistines prevented the Israelite tribes from having blacksmiths.
'Now no blacksmith could be found in all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, “Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears.”'
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Iron
The point is that as Bruce Hayden states, its the historical norm for tribes to clash, competing for resources and if one has some advantage over the other then they are going to utilize it. Forced resettlement and extinction of the losing tribes culture due to their being subsumed into the dominant culture is, historically, the merciful option.
Howard said...
It's like all you people have inherited parchment thin skin from the Donald.
Do you live alone, Howard?
As four of my antecedents were on the Mayflower, I have studied at length the Pilgrims' histories which are well documented. Thanksgiving is not a myth. I even have copies of deeds showing my ancestors' purchases of land from individual natives. The natives did indeed help them to survive that first winter. Most of the pilgrims did not.
Let's just disestablish Thanksgiving as a federal holiday. Then we will be spared the annual whining, white-guilt flagellation, etc. All federal workers man your stations and all you ignorant kiddies back to the books.
The tribes that came to dinner had allied themselves to the Mayflower survivors who welcomed them after harvest to a 3 day feast sharing food together as a covenant confirming act. Bradford had earlier given God the thanks for a crop saving rain during a drought. It came after fasting and prayer and it amazed the Indians. The Plymouth Plantation guys were all in on faith in God. But without that faith, Thanksgiving is just dinner.
Fortunately that Reformed Protestants faith tradition spread across the northern half of the USA all the way to the west coast. And it won the War of the Southern Rebellion. See, How the West Was Won.
How can I ever be alone when I live rent free in your head, Nichevo?
The Aztecs were scrupulous in always inviting the conquered tribes to their victory feasts. Their culinary skills were designed to celebrate diversity and inclusion. Sadly though, their technological skills were not sufficient to include the Spaniards, the other white meat, in their victory celebrations.
The experience has been similar in settler atates like israel and i assume australia.
As has already been noted above, Thanksgiving is about giving thanks for all that we have. The model event is what the Pilgrims did in holding a celebration meal to note the bounty that kept them alive in the wilds of the Massachusetts woods. The fact that they shared the celebration with a local indigenous tribe is a nice historical fact, but hardly the focus for the celebration. This is how it should be viewed today - a day set aside to be thankful and to spend with your loved ones. Is that such bad thing that it needs constant criticism? Indians harshing your mellow? OK - just leave them out of your celebration/narrative - problem fixed.
BTW - as also noted above, there was two way conflict between settlers and Indians - not just one-way. And Indian tribes fought fiercely amongst themselves. No one is a saint in that saga, and by the way, that subsequent fighting had squat to do with Pilgrims giving thanks or our national holiday. And there are always the complaints (many of them deserved) about Indian reservation conditions today, but why don’t these articles mention the great privilege of having exclusive rights of Indian tribes to run casinos on ‘free’ land and make multi-millions of dollars that go exclusively back to tribe members? (e.g., Potawatomi)
It's possible that the first Thanksgiving was influenced by the native Green Corn Festival. That came after the corn ripened while the Pilgrims celebrated the actual harvest, their first corn harvest. Still, there were more Wampanoags at the feast than Pilgrims so we have to assume they found the idea of a harvest feast familiar. They'd just finished one and were ready for another.
Meanwhile, listening to discussions of 2020 Thanksgiving is getting be like listening to cultists. Can purity be maintained with all those ... people? Near each other. Ugh. I plan to watch one of those thrill of horror movies showing people crowding together - maybe Friday Night Lights so as to remember how sports were also. And, of course, I'll thank God - or maybe it's the Regulators - that we have none of THAT going on anymore. Have you watched the movie, St. Elmo's Fire? Recently? Terrible. I had to peek through my fingers at the bar scenes. Overall it's scary that lefties are running the culture but you notice they are running everything right into the ground - not making movies and plays, sports ruined, schools closed, CNN ratings tunneling down on a journey to the center of the earth etc., elections a mess. Lefties even cheated in California elections! Why? They're just doing things without knowing the real purpose and that's the culture the American left creates when it acting without restrictions and on its own. It's like watching Sherman march through Georgia. Oh, my country. And then, Hunter's doting Dad up there talking about "Unity," meaning "the beatings will continue till morale improves." Maybe we should just tell Our Betters that we want Thanksgiving 2020 completely called off. But then they'd make us get together and celebrate. Hmmm.
Is there any effort being made to learn why so many Native Americans are having such severe difficulties with C-19? There is likely something more than just the poverty which is so prevalent in their societies--a genetic difference perhaps. I hope some university med center out west is investigating. Is a lack of key steps in immune response the cause of the severity of cases on reservations?
There is some evidence that an immune system deficiency can be behind the fact that some individuals well under 70 yo have such severe infections, while the vast majority of youthful victims just shrug it off. This deficiency may possibility lead of the cytokine storm which leads to ruin of the lungs, clotting of arteries and other horrific aspects of this infection.
A friend of mine in his mid 40's had such a severe battle with the virus, he is now virus free but is making no progress in pulmonary rehab. He is advised he may need a lung transplant.
Sure would be good to know a way to identify those who are at risk of such rapidly progressive and deadly course of the disease.
Annie C. said...
"Wednesday's supposed to be a precocious obnoxious pre-teen. That is not meant as an aspirational state for America's adults."
Can you say Greta Thunburg? I knew you could.
I'll see your Greta Thunburg and raise you a David Hogg.
Rush Limbaugh: "I don’t know what you were taught about Thanksgiving, but I was taught a version that goes like this: The Pilgrims showed up, and they were incompetents. They were well-intentioned good-hearted people but incompetent, and they didn’t know how to do anything. They were stumbling and bumbling around in a foreign place, had no idea even where they were.
And as they’re on the verge of starvation, the Indians stumbled upon ’em — across them — and showed them how to basically live, gave them everything, showed them how to grow crops and kill turkey and build tepees and stuff, and so the Pilgrims survived, and we were giving thanks, that Thanksgiving is to acknowledge the Indians’ role in saving the first Pilgrims. Now, it’s a quaint story, and it has attached itself to a number of people, but… but it is very far removed from what the first Thanksgiving is really about." Thanksgiving is thanking God for the blessings He gave, and I guess if you don't believe in God it is silly, but the Puritans did, and George Washington did.
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/11/22/the-true-story-of-thanksgiving/
It's also worth noting that a great disease killed many natives before the Pilgrims arrived, hence they Pilgrims did not meet them initially and they probably would have been killed if they had.
Bruce Hayden said...The Indians weren’t conquered because we hated them (though some did) but because, for the most part they were underutilizing the land
My town used that logic a few years ago to take a working class neighborhood with older housing stock and hand it over to a developer of high end shopping malls. The people and most of the houses are gone, squatters have moved into the remainder, and there are legitimate doubts about whether ground ever will be broken on the proposed mall. It does seem we hate our working class.
I'm thankful that I learned at an early enough age that my life belonged to myself and not to the State, so I didn't grow up a State-cultist, as many young people seem prone to do.
What is this "You have taken the land which is rightfully ours" crap? As if the native American tribes never fought with each other for territory. We took it, now suck it.
In that vein, why not take Canada too. It's 1/10th our size and has 170 Bb of oil reserves. We could have them under our control by a week from Friday.
They do Thanksgiving in Canada, too, where their history with the First Nations is quite a bit different.
My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts.
What the fuck does that even mean???
This is borderline mental illness.
Spend some time with a schizophrenic, and then read the NYT. You can't tell where the facts end, and the fantasy starts.
The idea that the natives encountered by arriving Europeans were the "original" Americans is a myth.
Those natives were descendants of others who conquered the originals or their descendants.
We just don't know what the originals looked like.
forced to live in mobile homes on reservations.
I had no idea they were banned from living where they want and in whatever type of home they want. This is an outrage! Oh, wait, that’s not true? Nvm
We just don't know what the originals looked like
Kennewick Man eerily similar to the Hairy Ainu of Japan an indigenous (pre Japanese) caucasoid race also somewhat related to other proto caucasoids in eastern Russia and Australia
Ainu man 1880
The American continents were peopled LONG before the current native Americans. Possibly as much as 40 thousand years ago...similar again to Australian Aborigines time frame.
Notice we don't have anyone weeping for the Neanderthals
Clash of civilizations.
North American Natives were a Stone Age people who hadn't even invented the wheel for God's sake.
There was bound to be a winner and a loser.
And you don't really believe the early Europeans were genocidal.
If they were, it was perfectly within their capability to wipe out every single native.
They didn't.
It's been 500-something years. Quit your bitching. Blacks have a better case.
It must be so hard to be so negative all the time. True Grinches.
Start asking what more can I give up.
The day is coming when they ask you to give up your life. What will you do then?
Ok, fine, I’ll admit it’s a little embarrassing always to be “punching down” just by existing
Most of the genocide that reduced the Americas indigenous population by 80% was mostly from European diseases related to animal husbandry and ignorance of germ theory.
So a case can be made that it really wasn't intentional genocide.
I'm sure the victims are happy with the "whoops my bad" apology
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
Yeah the natives never killed each other in sadistic and barbaric ways and took each others’ stuff and land and enslaved each others’ children and sex trafficked each others’ young women. It was like the Garden of Eden all up in here before whitey showed up. Just like in Africa before [white] people invented slavery.
****************
HEH
People can learn the REAL story about both topics (Indians and slavery) in "Debunking Howard Zinn: Exposing the Fake History That Turned a Generation against America"
(which I suspect Ms. Pants must have read)
Blogger Howard said...
Most of the genocide that reduced the Americas indigenous population by 80% was mostly from European diseases related to animal husbandry and ignorance of germ theory.
So a case can be made that it really wasn't intentional genocide.
I'm sure the victims are happy with the "whoops my bad" apology
The victims aren't around. Got any other blazing insights?
The survivors are victims too Rusty. Just think of all those Jews who survived the Holocaust are they not victims of the Nazis. Do their families and future generations still carry some of those scars?
Dear Dumbass,
You, personally, would never have existed if it weren't for every single "injustice" ever done to "your people" before you were conceived. Accordingly, the only way to bring you to the state that you would have if those injustices had never been done, is ending your existence. Our death squads accordingly will roll out to give you your justice as soon as possible.
-----
Copy and paste that to everyone of any background that ever complains about something that happened before they were conceived as if it were an injustice done to them.
I shall weep for the Visigoths
Thanksgiving should be renamed “This is what happens when you have open borders day."
A long time ago, my ancestors were attacked by the Romans. I haven't been able to get worked up about it.
Yes, let's review how the NYT supported slavery and worked against the Union during the Civil War. I wouldn't be surprised that they were great supporters of the KKK and Jim Crow.
"The American continents were peopled LONG before the current native Americans. “
Seal hunters in kayaks got here working the edge of the ice sheet, probably.
You might feel differently Freeman if you were speaking Latin right now but as it turns out your ancestors and mine kicked the living s*** out of those swarming little Romans and Rose up to dominate the whole world like no other tribe has ever done in history. It's easy to feel secure when you're part of the in crowd.
Howard said...
The survivors are victims too Rusty. Just think of all those Jews who survived the Holocaust are they not victims of the Nazis. Do their families and future generations still carry some of those scars?
I'm sure you'll do your utmost to see that they do.
Nice dodge Rusty.
tim in vermont said..Seal hunters in kayaks got here working the edge of the ice sheet, probably.
there is a hypothesis that there was early migration came from the East. Europe. Solutrean culture. Specifically from the Iberian area and came over the ice sheets that covered the ocean between Europe and America. Several thousands of years before the Bering Strait hypothesis. Artifcats PREdating Clovis have been found on the east coast. Much of the artifacts and sites that might have been there from the Solutreans 20,000 years ago, have been flooded by the rising sea levels from the melting ice sheets of the last ice age
Across Atlantic Ice Interesting and very boring if you aren't into ancient archaeology.
Both sides of this debate are adamant that they are right.
Why can't it be both Solutrean, Bering Strait or even more migrations. Such as the type represented by Kennewick Man. Recent findings in South America tend to show habitation LONG before the Bering Strait hypothesis. Who knows what is real. Until we invent a WayBack Machine ala Professor Peabody...it is all an academic argument.
Academic debates are so tedious :-)
Freeman. A long time ago, my ancestors were attacked by the Romans. I haven't been able to get worked up about it.
Mine were attacked by the British and Anglo Saxons and a few Vikings. I'm still mad about it. /wink.
I googled Lyz. She appears to be the Native American version of the modern Australian Aborigine activist. Both types appear to be 7/8ths Caucasian.
Steven said...
Dear Dumbass,
You, personally, would never have existed if it weren't for every single "injustice" ever done to [and by] "your people" before you were conceived. Accordingly, the only way to bring you to the state that you would have if those injustices had never been done, is ending your existence. Our death squads accordingly will roll out to give you your justice as soon as possible.
Orz
The White man offered assimilation and integration. The tribes offered death, slavery, and social justice a la Hutu/Tutsi, post-apartheid Progressive South Africa, Zimbabwe, Swaziland, etc. Some White men, yes. Some tribes, no. Unfortunately, diversity is a clear and progressive problem, yesterday, today, and probably forevermore. Lose your Pro-Choice quasi-religion ("ethics"). #BabyLivesMatter
I'm half Irish and Half English. Every Saint Patrick's Day I get drunk and beat myself up.
Democrats like Howard: You shall not give thanks for anything in America.
God: In nothing doth man offend God, or against none is His wrath kindled, save those who do not confess His hand in all things, and keep not His commandments.
I.e. giving thanks to God is essential. Washington knew it, which is why his proclamation of thanksgiving is so oriented toward thanking God. Howard and Biden and the left vehemently oppose that idea.
there is a hypothesis that there was early migration came from the East. Europe.
"Native" communities that were subsequently invaded by "indigenous" tribes. The statues were torn down, the records were offensive and either banned or burned. What followed was waves of now "native" people invading this land. Some that carried out inter and others intra-tribal genocide. Others yet were peaceful, tolerant, even kind, but the distinction was blurred through the progress of diversity (i.e. color judgment) dogma.
Bilwick sez: I'm half Irish and Half English. Every Saint Patrick's Day I get drunk and beat myself up.
I'm half English and half Scottish and forever trying to gain independence from myself. It's tiring.
Wait, we can not break bread with you. You have taken the land which is rightfully ours.
So the Native Americans were anti-immigration?
And for all of these reasons I have decided to scalp you and burn your village to the ground.
What is Lyz Jaakola view of Obama and Biden's cages for illegal immigrants on the border?
*according to my DNA, however, I'm also 1% Bantu African but so far that percentage has maintained a pretty low profile.
Howard said...
"Nice dodge Rusty."
Oh. Was I supposed to play your little grievance game?
I'm 36% Welsh. 23% Scottish 30% Irish. The rest Iberian Peninsula (family legend says Basque) and 1% or so North Western Germanic.
Poster child for Celtic people.
Genetically I’m English, Scottish, and Irish. Why do I have a genetic condition that’s called the Viking’s Disease? I’m sure any Viking who went adventuring was very mindful of my ancestors. I’m also sure they were as attractive as Travis Fimmel from the History Chanel’s Vikings.
My sixth great-grandfather Eneas McDaniel was captured in Licking Creek,Virginia by 250 British Soldiers and 850 Native Americans and held as a prisoner of war during the Revolution.
Oh, my second great-grandfather suffered debilitating diarrhea for almost fifty years after serving with the 90th Regiment, Indiana Volunteers during the Civil War.
So am I owed something from somebody, somewhere? It has nothing to do with me directly except for the fact they left me with a great county.
Why would anyone put on a Thanksgiving play at summer camp?
Addams Family Values, written by Paul Rudnick. Christina Ricci didn't improv her lines.
Always credit the writer.
Maybe it's different out East, but here in my neck of the woods, Thanksgiving is less about Squanto and Massasoit, and more about being grateful for what is good in your life.
Wednesday and the Addamses were supposed to be weird and asocial, but Paul Rudnick, the scriptwriter, used them to get back at straight society. Viewers pretty much were supposed to identify with Wednesday and her strange family in their conflicts with the shallow and abusive normals. On the other hand, did anybody really expect that people would take her rant seriously? Was it anything more than just an opportunity for a laugh? Woke ideology walks on the edge of self-parody and sometimes falls in.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
I'm 36% Welsh. 23% Scottish 30% Irish. The rest Iberian Peninsula (family legend says Basque) and 1% or so North Western Germanic.
My own ethnicity has more hyphens than the faculty roster of a Womens' Studies department.
I don't like to hear Thanksgiving called Turkey Day, either.
I observed earlier: *according to my DNA, however, I'm also 1% Bantu African but so far that percentage has maintained a pretty low profile.
**But who knows when it might rise up and start demanding reparations?
Lucira has just an hour ago been authorized by the FDA to market its in-home covid test which gives a result from a nasal swab in half an hour. But I suspect that Madison's latest regulations which ban any outsiders from your own house will be statewide by Thanksgiving Day. But - what if you had been tested with a Lucira that day? And what about Christmas? Will this be the new hot Christmas item? Or the vaccine? A small card showing an appointment for the vaccine is showing up under Christmas trees this year.
"Poster child for Celtic people."
Well, Celtic women are usually gorgeous imho (bring on the gingers!), so you probably have that going for you...
"You might feel differently Freeman if you were speaking Latin right now..."
The Romans stopped my ancestors' barbarous practice of human sacrifice, and I make my kids learn Latin, so...
The Romans didn't make it up to my husband's ancestors. There's a wall instead. When I look at my husband and his brothers, I think, "Yeah, if I were the Romans I'd pass on fighting a bunch of these guys too."
mock turtle- funny! I have a Mayflower traveler too! Funny to think our people would have known each other.
"The Romans stopped my ancestors' barbarous practice of human sacrifice, and I make my kids learn Latin, so..."
Sure, but what have the Romans ever done for us?
mock turtle- funny! I have a Mayflower traveler too! Funny to think our people would have known each other.
Who was yours, MayBee?
"I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, other people get it, too. They realize how ridiculous the whole image of Thanksgiving is" said Lyz Jaakola, 52, a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, recall[ing] the catharsis she felt as a young woman watching the movie 'Addams Family Values,' a dark comedy released in 1993"
In 1993, she was 25. Do you look to 25 year-olds for insight and wisdom on historical topics that are important to different people for different reasons?
Yeah, me neither.
William50 said...
I'll see your Greta Thunburg and raise you a David Hogg.
Keep them apart, for God's sake! Don't let them breed!
Let's just pretend that the Indians didn't scalp women and children and that many of the tribes sided with the French, the enemy.
Indians lost the Indian wars. Plus Andrew Jackson, the first Democrat President, ignored the Supreme Court and forced then on the Trail of Tears. How, exactly,is all this relevant to Thanksgiving, which celebrates a time of Indians and the English working together?
"Indians that assimilate do fine. Stay on a reservation and you're in poverty."
This was true even back in the Trail of Tears days. Indians who had assimilated and adopted American citizenship didn't go. I know of at least one Cherokee who had a large farm in western North Carolina who choose not to go. He gave up his right to claim land in Oklahoma. He also, presumably, gave up allowing his young sons to prove their manhood by stealing his neighbor's live stock and burning their barns, A traditional practice even among the so-called Civilized Tribes.
"Indians that assimilate do fine. Stay on a reservation and you're in poverty."
This was true even back in the Trail of Tears days. Indians who had assimilated and adopted American citizenship didn't go. I know of at least one Cherokee who had a large farm in western North Carolina who choose not to go. He gave up his right to claim land in Oklahoma. He also, presumably, gave up allowing his young sons to prove their manhood by stealing his neighbor's live stock and burning their barns, A traditional practice even among the so-called Civilized Tribes.
Fascination Ann, your cruel neutrality with the squish of a not “one handed economist”. The signs of a person addicted to liberalism, and not the classical kind.
Wednesday entailing terrorism and genocide is her basic appeal. Get with the program.
Mockturtle- samuel fuller and his son (and Mrs fuller i believe but she seems to have died on the voyage)
I may have another too but am still researching
William50 said...
I'll see your Greta Thunburg and raise you a David Hogg.
Clyde said:
Keep them apart, for God's sake! Don't let them breed!
Don't cross the streams!
@MayBee: I may have another too but am still researching
If you have one, dear cousin, it's likely you have another, and another, and another. I am up to 11 now. 3 Fullers, 3 Mullins, 3 Tilleys, Alden, and Howland.
In fact, anyone who can document New England ancestry to before the Civil War is statistically almost certain to be a Mayflower descendant. Proving it can be a trick, but much of the hard work has already been done.
Mine are John Howland, his wife-to-be Elizabeth Tilley and her parents.
Skookum John! You are my dear cousin and mock turtles cousin!
We are all a happy family!!!!
Almost all of my ancestry is NE before the civil war, spreading out eventually to the promised land of Ohio and beyond.
Pre-Columbian America is properly speculated in Charles Mann's "1491."
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