Although these vigilante groups often cite the Second Amendment’s “well regulated militia” for their authority, history and Supreme Court precedent make clear that the phrase was not intended to — and does not — authorize private militias outside of government control. Indeed, these armed groups have no authority to call themselves forth into militia service; the Second Amendment does not protect such activity; and all 50 states prohibit it. The danger of these groups was brought home on Thursday with the announcement that the F.B.I. had thwarted a plot by people associated with an extremist group in Michigan to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and overthrow the government....
Even before the adoption of the Constitution, the colonies recognized the importance of a “well regulated” militia to defend the state, in preference over standing armies, which they perceived as a threat to liberty. The militia consisted of able-bodied residents between certain ages who had a duty to respond when called forth by the government. But “well regulated” meant that the militias were trained, armed and controlled by the state. Indeed, 48 states have provisions in their constitutions that explicitly require the militia to be strictly subordinate to the civil authority. Likewise, state constitutions and laws then and now generally name the governor as the commander in chief of its armed forces — and only the governor or a designee has the power to call forth the able-bodied residents for militia service....
... Justice Antonin Scalia [wrote for the majority in] District of Columbia v. Heller... that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms for self-defense, but “does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations.” Although there are many gray areas about Second Amendment rights, this is not one of them....
Much more at the link.
पोस्ट्स
१३८ टिप्पण्या:
the same mary mccord who ran the fisa operation against trump, whose legal advisor was atkinson,
First: Do we really believe the FBI?
Second: Do we really believe the FBI in an election year?
Third: Do we accept that the governor is a pathological Karen that gets on everyone's nerves? There are probably kindergarten classes that want to kidnap her and put her on nap time.
So antifa is an idea but some nut jobs call themselves a militia and they all have to go? Convenient that.
Militias are the leftists big foot. They only exist in their minds.
"there is no evidence of any central control or organization"
Shhhh isntthatwhattheysayaboutantifa
Are these private militias rioting/looting/throwing Molotov cocktails and burning down buildings and business in our inner cities?
Asking for an Antifa friend in Portland...
The really offensive thing is, people like this actually have law degrees, and yet seemingly know nothing about the law, except it exists to mean whatever they want it to mean.
If this is the pinnacle of our professional class, we need to start burning things down, starting with Georgetown Law.
I realize paid-for pundits have to say something about this now, but I am reserving judgement. I wish to know how much the FBI involvement propped the plot up.
Any evidence they wanted to do more than tar and feather her?
Would this include any formal group that utilizes weapons for the purpose of defending their stated cause. It seems that Antifa is just as much a militia for a specific purpose as any of these organizations and there are many others. Any group with minimal amount of organization and a propensity to use other than entirely non-violent protest would be banned. Maybe they already are, but certainly any such ban must absolutely be viewpoint neutral and so any violence in cities has to be rigorously banned.
It's often, of course, the lack of rigorous policing that leads to the rise of such militias, such as the Vigilance Society in San Francisco.
Where the government can't or won't respond, the people are, it seems, given Constitutional leeway to make do another way.
Oh for fuck's sake, not this again.
Notice that McCord doesn't define what is actually meant by private militia in her fucking article. That is a tell, isn't it. Here is my definition- a private militia is an private organization of armed men taking up arms and acting against the government- state, local, or federal. There is nothing illegal about a group of men buying legal firearms and calling themselves a militia, and there should nothing illegal about a group of men buying legal firearms, calling themselves a militia, and talking about acting against the government. The latter is basically thought crime. Our law is quickly devolving into recognizing thought crimes, and McCord is the poster bitch for this sort of dangerous thing. It is calls like this to make crimes of thoughts that gets you fucking shot by someone pissed off enough to take action. You want actual armed resistance from private militias? Then, by all means, follow Mary McCord's recommendations in this essay. Fucking morons.
I'm sure the local British governors from 1774 and Jefferson Davis agreed just fine with McCord's interpretation.
Funny how the supporters of all-powerful, centralized government such as McCord find it necessary for government to oversee all possible opposition to one-party, autocratic rule. It's almost like they favor, I dunno, tyranny maybe?
She sure doesn't seem to keen on the idea of unalienable rights. I'm sure she thinks she's smarter than the men who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
I think there's a sliding scale between "an anti-government club where all the members own guns" on the one hand, and "a paramilitary organisation bent on overthrowing the government." In between, you have gangs, militias, and vigilante neighbourhood/community organisations that use force to impose extra-legal rules -- usurping the role of the state.
At the start of that scale I think freedom of association ought to protect them. At the middle, it seems appropriate to me to prosecute individuals and small conspiracies when they break the law with violence or the threat of violentce, and for law enforcement to monitor them carefully on an ongoing basis (Antifa and Black Bloc mostly belong in this middle category, I think). By the end, it's basically insurrection, so aggressive prohibition seems right.
Most militias seem to be more towards the anti-government club end of the spectrum -- they have their compounds and mostly keep to themselves spinning autarkic fantasies. And when they don't, like this libertarian/anarchist plot against Whitmer, it's reasonable to crack down.
404 Page Not Found said...
The really offensive thing is, people like this actually have law degrees...this is the pinnacle of our professional class [Elites]..." 10/9/20, 1:56 PM
I agree! If Mr. Trump had not won in 2016, 'Globalism' would've won. As a consequence, of the subsequent 'hallowing out of the USA's middle class' I would see a negative violent reaction toward our country's 'Elites' very similar to the "French Revolution". Nasty business that!
The people involved in the alleged plot are ANTI-TRUMP anarchists.
Chicago is full of armed militias
I would suggest that Antifa is a paramilitary group, financed and supplied by both domestic and foreign groups and individuals, with a well established strategy to dismantle the United States government and culture.
Anyone from our esteemed experts parading around in Established Washington, academia, and the NY Times care to include Antifa in this discussion? Because the last I saw, Antifa has destroyed entire blocks of multiple major US cites and killed people. The Wolverine Watchmen had a meeting to discuss what they'd like to do.
Waiting for Christopher Wray to get his priorities in place. And no- I don't mean- getting Joe Biden elected.
Right, the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee these groups the right to exist. That's what the First Amendment does. Freedom of association.
What the Second Amendment does is guarantee the members of these organizations the right to bear arms.
Now, between these two provisions, you cannot either prohibiting them from associating on the grounds that they bear arms, nor prohibit them from bearing arms on the grounds that they're associating.
So the claim that the Constitution doesn't protect their existence is ridiculous. Unless and until they act for unlawful ends, they're absolutely protected by the Constitution, by the intersection of the First and Second Amendments.
That they call themselves "militias" is fundamentally irrelevant to their Constitutional rights. It doesn't take them away any more than the fact that the Salvation Army calls itself an army instead of a church affects its Constitutional rights.
Is McCord arguing Trump should immediately invoke the insurrection act?
A pike fishing club is nothing to sneeze at.
I do wonder, do people like Ms. McCord stay up nights thinking of things that should be prevented by rule of law? I'd call her a petty tyrant, unfortunately she, along with all the other "petty tyrants" on the left, add up to a very real problem for our republic.
The majority opinion by Scalia on Heller, (near the top):
[…]It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.
It is therefore entirely sensible that the Second Amend ment’s prefatory clause announces the purpose for which the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia. The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting. But the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution. JUSTICE BREYER’s assertion that individual self-defense is merely a “subsidiary interest” of the right to keep and bear arms, see post, at 36, is profoundly mistaken.[…]
There is solid evidence these people are anarchists and not " right wing" one arrested man is seen on video speaking in his home with the anarchy flag hung on the wall behind him. Does this matter? Yes.
Darrell,
Does a pike fishing club fish for pikes or with pikess?
A pike can be a useful tool for carrying a king's or governor's head around as well.
John Henry
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Okay, I give up. Why does this sentence make any sense according to the [well-accepted] interpretation of the article? Who exactly does the amendment think is going to do the infringing, and how does "a well regulated Militia" do something that they would want to infringe?
So no need for any due process here or a trial to find out if this militia even really existed, because some goofballs are talking about stuff in their basement, and FBI accused them of something. After General Flynn, and the RussiaGate lies, I need more than that. Maybe they got a FISA warrant.
Right wing militias are not the kinds of militias that are referenced by the Second Amendment. EVERY state defines and prohibits private militias and paramilitary activity. The government doesn't want an armed insurrection. That's a no brainer. So the NYT is right: these groups are "illegal." But so what? Most of these groups are just wing-nuts and conspiracy theorists playing war games in the wilderness. And what about the good guys? Militia groups like Deacons for Defense and Justice were also illegal. The Deacons where armed preachers (!!!) who protected their people from the Ku Klux Klan.
My brother continues to claim right wing extremist are the real cause for concern in America. He cites the DHS report. I challenged him to show some examples and offered to pull some from the left.
So far, crickets.
It's a silly attempt to deflect from the growing disgust at Antifa/BLM rioting since they are the left.
But silly, amplified and repeated ad nausea by the media become rock solid fact to certain folk on the left.
They should have called themselves a "mostly peaceful protest group". There are no limits on what such a group can do. No laws apply to them.
1. Determine your political enemies.
2. Declare them a militia.
3. Remove their Constitutional rights, based on their lack of a right to exist.
Nope, nothing to see here folks...
we have had six months of riots, funded by a former terrorist, who has extorted 2 billion dollars, interesting that's as much as the insured cost for damages,
I really wonder if this whole Whitmer thing is going backfire on the Dems. A lot of people in MI are really unhappy with her. When the peaceful protests (that really were peaceful) against her overreach began, the the protesters were labeled Nazis, accused of blocking access to emergency rooms, of being extreme right wing etc. instead of people who just wanted to get back to work and earn a living. Now, the MI Supreme Court has ruled that she did exceed her powers. Given all this background, I wonder if the current effort to associate these alleged plotters with Trump is just going to make her, and by association, the Dems even more unpopular. We'll see I guess. I think the Dems are really afraid of losing MI again and I think there is a very good chance they will. I personally am suspicious. It's not like the Dems and the FBI haven't tried something like this before.
A government big enough to give you anything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have. Gerald R. Ford
If you have questions about Mary McCord, read up on how she dealt with the Flynn investigation. As I recall, she thought the Logan Act questions had more moxie than Sally Yates did, and she surely was willing to push the idea that Flynn had legal problems.
She is a swamp rat all the way.
Shorter article: You can keep your Second Amendment rights in exchange for all the others.
Note to Readers:
TRUMP is the Authoritarian!
TRUMP is the Authoritarian!
TRUMP is the Authoritarian!
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled program.
Freedom of association. There's your constitutional right.
A large black militia was marching in Tennessee I think just the other day. Hundreds.
Hands up those wanting the police to forcibly confiscate their guns and insignia.
No one in the media mentions that the Michigan Supreme Court ruled the Governor had exceeded her legal authority and she simply claimed it under another provision to keep everything in place.
Nope, not relevant to this discussion at all.
Why skip all the way to the second amendment. It seems to me that they are covered by the 1st:
"First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
My offhand first reaction was doubt that they could have pulled it off, not that groups of this or that kind ought to be legally banned for groupiness.
Hey Mary, just think of them as BLM or antifa. In your mind that should make it all "good", right?
These groups have no constitutional right to exist.
My second amendment says otherwise.
Why is it that these people increasingly sound like Tories? What I mean is King George III Tories. For Christ's sake this person could be making the exact same statement in reference to a gathering of people objecting to the Stamp Act in Boston Common or forming a fraternal organization in Philadephia, the only difference is it's being made today.
Worse yet is the 'militia' was the very basis for the organizing principles against just this kind of kvetching the first place.
McCord should fuck off right back to London.
“... the right of the people peaceably to assemble,”
If they called themselves a “boogelparf” instead of a “militia,” would that make McCord happy? She seems hung up on a word, but as long as the people involved are peaceable, regardless of what they call themselves, what is the complaint? As others have pointed out upthread, the FBI tells us that these people were plotting a violent act — or were they just getting drunk and talking big? — but at the same time there really are people who assemble to protest (if peaceable, then allowed), engage in looting (not allowed), commit arson (not allowed), riot (not allowed), stop cars in order to pull people out and beat them (not allowed), and kill people deemed Trump supporters or otherwise insufficiently “woke” (manifestly not allowed). The evidence that these assembled individuals are financed across state lines, and that they cross state lines with the expectation that they will commit criminal actions in partnership with like-minded violent people, seems very overwhelming. Yet where is the FBI?
@Dr. Michael K., does your daughter Kate understand yet why her organization is viewed skeptically by law-abiding Americans?
Personally, I view these militias as delusional has-beens and never-weres, recognizing however that a couple of these lunatics managed to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City and kill scores of innocent people. The Wolverine Warriors and other Michigan Militia groups want to go camping and play soldier and cast themselves in heroic roles saving our liberties. People like that—including the KKK in its day—attract fringe types who talk big and invariably include police informers and FBI infiltrators. Antifa and certain BLM activities are just as looney as these militias, but are much better funded and not infiltrated by the cops. And somehow Antifa and BLM have gained the ear and the favorable attention or at least neglectful indifference of one of our two major parties.
But we can also recognize the institutional rot that leads to Ruby Ridge, Waco and the Branch Davidians, the Fast and Furious fiasco, and the railroading of Gen. Flynn.
The most troubling thing about the current time is that the elites and elected officials are unwilling to confront the implications of having the police stand down while the mobs and thugs stand up. Take a look at the homicide figures in Chicago for the last two years. No one should put up with what has happened on the west and south sides. And sending in the social workers by the busload (as recommended by the perpetually dim Biden) won’t improve a thing.
I hold no brief for the intellectual prowess of many of my progressive friends. But they would say that many of the commenters on this post are egaging in "what about ism" when talking of Anti Fa and BLM.
To which I'd say, "Yeah--so what." Loud talk and plots not carried out will get you thrown in jail if you are arbuabliy on the right. Thrown Molotov cocktails, weapons grade fireworks mortars fired at police guarding a federal courthouse in Portland will get you a pat on the po po and a quick release from the Portland clink (if you ever actually get out in there for as long as it takes to be given a cup of coffee).
The Scalia quote was from the Heller decision and was in reference to the Court's ruling in Presser v. Illinois in 1885. That ruling was based on the principal that the Second Amendment did not constrain state governments, but only the federal government.
This changed in 2010 (two years after Heller) in McDonald v. Chicago when the Court "incorporated the Second" by holding that that amendment was binding on the states as well as the federal government. Presser has not been overruled but it's basic premise is now invalid.
Mary McCord knows this and is lying to you when she uses the Scalia quote.
You don't respond to requests for law professoring, Althouse, but this would be a good opportunity to do a little teaching.
Right wing militias are not the kinds of militias that are referenced by the Second Amendment.
I wasn't aware The Founders used partisan litmus tests when crafting the Constitution. Who knew?
The original Michigan Militia was created after Ruby Ridge and Waco. Following the McVeigh bombing it was systemically dismantled by the FBI. The media, and corrupt law enforcement label attach the label "Michigan militia" to white person with a gun, much the same way they label every white person "white supremacists". Psyo-ops knowing you'll think of the clan.
Everyone knows all of these "right-wing" terror groups, as they used to call them, are 90% undercover FBI/informants, 10% loser drunkards targeted by the FBI. Hey, gotta justify the funding-
All this, yet they say Antifa is too tough to crack-
Fuck-off.
Young men need to see a future. If they don't you'll get the real deal. Same as with the Middle-East, drawn to islamist terrorism.
But “well regulated” meant that the militias were trained, armed and controlled by the state.
No, they weren't
This is flat out wrong. The members of that "well regulated militia provided their own weapons, they were not "armed" by the State.
They were not trained by the State, either. They met on the town green on Sunday and trained together, with their own officers. To quote from Wikipedia:
During colonial America, all able-bodied men of a certain age range were members of the militia, depending on the respective state's rule.[2] Individual towns formed local independent militias for their own defense.
http://sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/ff_militia.htm
George Mason: “I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people.” (Elliott, Debates, 425-426)
If I have to chose who to get my understanding of a Constitutional term from, George Mason beats Mary B. McCord every day of the week, and twice on Sundays
The government doesn't want an armed insurrection. That's a no brainer. So the NYT is right: these groups are "illegal."
1. The Constitution limits what the GOVERNMENT can do.
2. The authors of the Constitution had just initiated an armed insurrection.
3. They wanted to make damn sure they could initiate another one, should it become necessary.
What "the government" wants was never a concern of the people who'd just fought a war with "the government" for their freedom.
The really offensive thing is, people like this actually have law degrees...this is the pinnacle of our professional class [Elites]..."
The lesson one gets from earning a law degree is to start with the verdict you want, argue backward, cherry-pick your facts and citations, and hope the other side doesn't know enough to counter or you get a sympathetic judge so you win.
Yes, that's exactly the problem with this country. An excess of lawyers have migrated this thinking into every corner of our society.
I thought Michigan had been swallowed up by the Great Lakes.
Didn't hear a peep from anyone when the Governor declared she was going to ignore an unanimous Supreme Court ruling declaring she had exceeded her constitutional authority. BTW wasn't that what those peaceful gun carrying protester accused her of. These militia seem to fill a vital role in pointing out unconstitutional authoritarian rule. Having now been validated by the Supreme Court.
Sounds like this tool is proposing thought crime. I may lampoon your vaunted proudboy incel obesity opioid army, but unless they do some actual illegal shit, let them jack off on Mom's service porch and brag about how baddass they are at the bar.
According to the left/Democrats, Trump is a fascist dictator, right? What kind of self-respecting fascist dictator directs his secret police (i.e., FBI) to set traps for citizen groups that are supposedly in support of his regime, instead of arresting rioting groups set against him? Can't Trump get this dictator shtick right? It's embarrassing to the MSM's narrative!
How do you stop a few guys getting together and saying "We're a militia!" without doing substantial damage to speech and association?
@Dr. Michael K., does your daughter Kate understand yet why her organization is viewed skeptically by law-abiding Americans?
Oh, I'm sure she is a Biden voter. As for the rest, the local FBI tend not to get involved in politics. It would be interesting to learn who these agents were and where did they come from. She was in the Detroit office for 7 years. Nothing but drug dealers.
"The Militia" was described as "white males between 17 and 35."
I am way more worried about private militias of K Street lawyers like Marc Elias who has a team of 200 lawyers who are attacking our voting rules and regs in every state.
"These groups have no constitutional right to exist."
The Constitution describes rights of the people that shall not be infringed by the government, it does not grant them.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
unalienable:
not transferable to another or not capable of being taken away or denied; inalienable:
Words- they have meanings.
Duke Dan,
Chicago is full of armed militias.
Well, exactly. These are also illegal, of course, and "gang affiliation" is the sort of thing that the sentencing laws tend to take into account. But if you don't call them "militias," they don't sound so right-wing scary, do they? Even though the Chicago-style "militias" routinely kill hundreds of people a year, whereas the scary right-wing ones have, so far as I know, killed no one, or very few, since the Oklahoma City bombing. I think the combined dead of the OK bombing would be rather less than a year of Chicago weekends.
10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes
The above defines who shall be a part of "The General Militia Of The United States". That provision does NOT define or provide for "Command-And-Control". The legal view quoted is another example of a judge "making law from the bench"---Unless you can provide a provision of the US Code as so provides.
I doubt me that the provided maximum age of 45-years would now stand constitutional challenges.
Howard said... I may lampoon your vaunted proudboy incel obesity opioid army, but unless they do some actual illegal shit, let them jack off on Mom's service porch and brag about how baddass they are at the bar.
Are you talking about yourself Howie or did you morph into Ritmo?
Chicago is a feral city and my home state something of a failed state. But I don't think street gangs are trying to seize state power...
This Michigan thing is definitely a Dem information operation. I hope this means internal polling there looks bad for the Dems.
No constitutional right to exist?
The Constitution grants nothing. Its sole purpose is to protect pre-existing rights whose Source is the Almighty, NOT government.
But if you want an answer, try this. The right of free association.
What's the definition of militia? Is it necessary or sufficient that a group call itself a militia? I suppose if antifa is anti-fascist merely because it calls itself anti-fascist, then the Michigan militia is a militia merely because it calls itself a militia. But I don't accept that antifa is anti-fascist. (Note: spell check keeps trying to change "antifa" to "antics," which seems appropriate.)
Our state legislatures have criminalized every part and angle of a crime. Surprised they have not criminalized waking up and eating breakfast on any day you might also commit a crime.
“The people involved in the alleged plot are ANTI-TRUMP anarchists.”
Really? Not all of them.
One of the key suspects in the case, Adam Fox, described Whitmer as a "this tyrant b---c' for not allowing gyms to reopen in the summer and urged his co-defendants to “do something” about her, according to conversations recorded by an FBI informant.
On social media, Fox frequently posted language that appeared to encourage violence against Democratic politicians, calling them traitors and criminals, while demonstrating his support for Trump, BuzzFeed News reported. In May 2018, for instance, he reportedly tweeted, “Trump’s a winner and the US will continue to win under real leadership!!””
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-some-suspects-in-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-tied-to-boogaloo-20201009-6xdf2sty5vefrkmary6vgf3srq-story.html?fbclid=IwAR1EpQWocxxfs4J2cGqhjR-2P9MsZSUu_Uyqo4Y8cDUDm7AszvkesYXr-B4
In a social profile verified by date of birth, Croft wore a tricorn hat and a sweatshirt with the insignia of the Three Percenters, an armed anti-government movement. Croft's online footprint shows what appears to have been years of involvement in armed movements.
In 2016, while he was living in Wilkesboro, North Carolina, Croft pushed pro-Trump conspiracy theories that absolved Russia of meddling in the 2016 election, calling investigations of Trump an "uprising."
Croft added that he would be willing to fight for his beliefs and that he would be joined by millions of others, adding that they had more firearms than their perceived enemies.
A second law enforcement action Thursday involved state charges against seven more members of the Wolverine Watchmen.
The men, identified as Paul Bellar, Shawn Fix, Eric Molitor, Michael Null, William Null, Pete Musico and Joseph Morrison, face an array of state charges, including counts of threat of terrorism or material support of terrorist acts.
Musico had a YouTube channel on which he railed against Whitmer and praised Trump.
"So sick and tired of hearing about Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump. Well guess what?" Musico said, pointing to a Trump 2020 hat on his head. "I hope that triggered a whole lot of people."
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whitmer-conspiracy-allegations-tied-boogaloo-movement-n1242670
OT:
Joe Rogan
What's the Deal with Hunter Biden?
I think it's interesting, in a way-to-spin-the-truth-to-make-it-Trump's-fault way, that at least two of these militia members are anarchists. No one on the alt-right is an anarchist... more like a reactionary neo-fascist. So, Antifa has learned to disguise itself as a militia (never mind the John Brown Gun Club militias that have spun up to counter 'right-wing' militias and who were patrolling the CHAZ/CHOP in Seattle this summer... and who had a member try to burn down the Tacoma DHS/BCP office last year and was shot by responding police for his efforts) and go after elected government officials, who then blame Trump for their actions.
Next, Democrats blame Republicans, Trump, and conservatives in general for civil unrest and use violence against the right to address the issues... we can call it Krystalnacht. Any bets on this happening if Biden wins?
Our leaders (Elites) today have more in common with your run of the mill dictatorships vs democracies - Whitmer its a perfect example. It is impossible to know if the regime is a democracy or a dictatorship. Elected officials care more about increasing and expanding their power bases, which includes Bureaucracies vs. governing people.
But if you call your outfit a “movement”, no problem.
I'd say if they can find "Kill Babies" in there, militias shouldn't be hard to find either. Predominately black babies, they are, too!.
In 2016, while he was living in Wilkesboro, North Carolina, Croft pushed pro-Trump conspiracy theories that absolved Russia of meddling in the 2016 election, calling investigations of Trump an "uprising."
Hahhahahhahaha! Such a conspiracy!!!
have no constitutional right to exist.
They're not viable? They have a right to exist. They don't have a right to occupy businesses, homes, and neighborhoods; to destroy public property (e.g. statues); to trap people in their cars; to set fires to their property and vehicles; to prosecute redistributive change (e.g. looting); and protest over a multi-trimester period. They don't have a right to deny human (e.g. life) and civil (e.g. liberty) rights. Oh, and clean up after yourselves.
Blogger Spiros said...
Chicago is a feral city and my home state something of a failed state. But I don't think street gangs are trying to seize state power...
No, they just want the money and the goods in Saks and Water Tower Place.
AS long as they get that and the pols are tame, why add complexity?
Inga has a new scoop she hasn't read. Welcome back. Comic relief has been short around here.
The Constitution grants nothing. Its sole purpose is to protect pre-existing rights whose Source is the Almighty, NOT government.
That's the black letter and original intent. However, the Twilight Amendment that established the Pro-Choice religion ("ethics") (e.g. wicked solution, diversity, female chauvinism, political congruence) recognizes that human and civil rights, that reality are, in fact, fluid (e.g. negotiable), which is the basis of ostensibly "secular" religions dictated by mortal god and goddess philosophers.
Not only that Doc, but if you also own a firearm you are part of the militia.
Molon Labe bitches
After victimizing her state
Now she can play the victim
What a wonderful world
Hey Inga,
How is the rioting going in Wauwatosa?
Are you burning down the patriarchy or patching up the rioters?
Is it safe at County Hospital?
Inga: "In 2016, while he was living in Wilkesboro, North Carolina, Croft pushed pro-Trump conspiracy theories that absolved Russia of meddling in the 2016 election, calling investigations of Trump an "uprising."'
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Hoax collusion now, Hoax collusion tomorrow, Hoax collusion For-Evah!
Remember, Inga pronounced all Trump voters and especially Trump staffers of being treasonous traitors.
And she never modified that position.
Which is particularly ironic now that we know Putin and his team knew all about Hillary's scheme to accuse Trump of russian collusion to cover up her corrupt email server scandal.
And Inga bit down as hard on that as any fool has ever bitten down on any transparent hoax.
If this plot shows the danger of private militias, guess we need more public militias. Is that a call for vigilantism?
Pause for a moment to think back when we were in thrall to the three networks and the NYT for our news. The gatekeepers would have made sure this sort of story and speculation never saw the light of day or was deftly refracted to make the left look good.
Not only that Doc, but if you also own a firearm you are part of the militia.
Yes, no judicial override, not fluid mechanics, no Twilight fringe (penumbras and emanations). The black letter, explicit meaning of the Second Amendment is that citizens are expected to prepare (e.g. hunting, self-defense) in their daily lives to become members of a "well regulated militia" in order to ensure the security of a free State.
Cold, dead hands.
Bitch.
Re: Spiros:
Gangs are not trying to replace the state, but they do enforce extra-legal rules (e.g. no snitching) with violence. Similarly, violent protesters in places like Portland use violence to enforce extra-legal rules, e.g. suppression of dissenting speech. They challenge the state in the sense that they reject the existing legal framework in favour of their own rules, which they enforce by violence or the threat of violence.
as we all know,
there was a kidnapping/terrorist attack planned in Michigan; by right wing, Life Long Republicans...
like this guy: Brandon Caserta
he SEEMS to be an anarchist/antifa/commie punk; but, in REALITY... is a Right Winger
serious questions
Has ANYONE, EVER seen Brandon Caserta and our poor Chuck at the same time?
we KNOW that they are BOTH in Michigan...
can ANYONE PROVE that they are NOT both the SAME PERSON??
i thought not
I'd say if they can find "Kill Babies" in there, militias shouldn't be hard to find either
Well regulated militias are Second Amendment.
Yeah, planned parenthood happens in the mainstream, if behind a wall. Planned parent, too. "Kill babies"... Fetal-Americans, is a rite found in the Twilight Amendment (i.e. penumbras and emanations), includes: abortion chambers, cannibalistic (i.e. reduce, reuse, recycle) clinics, too. Also, diversity, sex chauvinism, redistributive change, protests, occupation, political congruence, cancelling, witch hunts, warlock trials, etc. It's a Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic quasi-religious ("ethics") thing.
Blogger Rusty said...
Not only that Doc, but if you also own a firearm you are part of the militia.
Molon Labe bitches
I have a safe full of them. One has a 30 round mag.
“ the same mary mccord who ran the fisa operation against trump, whose legal advisor was atkinson”
https://www.lawfareblog.com/contributors/mmccord
Yep. Notice the link. She writes for Lawfare. Not only was she in charge of the illegal FISA applications against Carter Page on the DOJ side, she is also a Lawfare operative, which gave us the Logan Act misuse and Obstruction of Justice misinterpretation that allowed the Mueller SC investigation to prevent itself from being shut down, as well as preventing DOJ OIG and Congressional investigations of the Trump/Russian collusion hoax that we found recently was started by Crooked Hillary and her campaign to take the focus off of her illegal use of her private email server to run the State Department.
This is classical Lawfare. She deliberately miscited legal history, and deliberately confused 1st and 2nd Amdt protections. Of course the 2nd Amdt doesn’t protect local militias from being formed. That protection is found in the 1st Amendment’s freedom of association. What the 2nd Amendment protects is the right of those militias to be armed. If this mistake had been made by lay people, I would chalk it up to lack of knowledge. But the attorneys running Lawfare are very bright, which is why they are so dangerous. And why, it is so obviously deliberate Lawfare misinformation.
This is a private militia group, self regulating, recognized by the State of NY and the federal government. Not the only such unit in existence, though at the moment it seems google can't find them. There aren't many- but they exist.
The idea that the people couldn't self organize into local militias would be anathema to the writers of the Constitution, since the Revolution itself depended on such to succeed.
Now, when is the militia called out? More frequently than most think.
"Hey, a little kid is missing in the forest- we need people to search for her!" Everyone who shows up and starts searching is a volunteer member of the militia. Often they come as organized groups- like BSA troops.
There are other organized volunteer units that straddle the definition of militia. Volunteer fire departments. They self organize, elect their own officers, show up for disasters, for search and rescue, and to redirect traffic, some are designated as "fire police". Are they or aren't they militia? In some states- NY, they're their own taxing districts. In others like SC, they receive no tax money but rely on "donations". If you live within their district- donate, or watch them stand around and watch your structures burn down after rescuing people inside them.
The Volokh Conspiracy in 2014: In Colorado today, at least 17 county Sheriffs’ Offices have organized posses. These days, posse service is not a matter of being summoned, but of volunteering. The volunteers are trained to high standards by the Sheriffs. To the extent that the posse needs be armed at any given time (and the Sheriff has always had complete discretion in this matter), posse members provide their own arms according to the Sheriffs’ guidelines. Posses provide everything from gate security at the County Fair to assistance in hostage situations and high-risk arrests.
These county posses are supplement by the Colorado Mounted Rangers, a statewide volunteer organization which has memoranda of understanding with over two dozen local law enforcement agencies to provide support as needed. Go ahead- make the argument they're not private militias. They're not state forces- such as the NY State Guard. And they're not controlled by the state government. The Colorado Rangers operate their own training and recruitment, and serve without pay. They may not call themselves a militia- but they are.
The beauty of the 2nd Amendment is people have to die to take it away.
The ugly thing about the 2nd Amendment is people will die trying to take it away, but not the people trying to take it away.
The people trying to take it away understand, and plan on, people dying--just not them.
The people defending the 2nd Amendment, too many I'm afraid, may not be willing to die so others can live.
I hope it all works out.
I lived on the Huron shore upper of the lower MI for years. There are some weird crazy people that live in the woods, get over it, they have no agenda and are not smart enough to talk with.
Why did people vote for Whitmer? Is a (D) behind the name enough?
Wow... no constitutional right to exist. But apparently Antifa and BLM do, even when they do riots, arson, attacks on people....
Just like Hitler's brownshirts the left's brownshirts will get a pass from compliant police while opposition is banned.
Lawfare shares the exact same right not to exist as a militia.
The stench of the left's totalitarians grows stronger.
We don't have private militias. We have people like the participant whose picture was posted in front of his anarchist flag and showing us the really big plugs in his ear lobes. He has no point of view, he has no meaningful life, he is interested mostly in getting attention. For all we know, he's a registered Republican.
He's got nothing, and he's going nowhere.
Like many of his cohorts who have been burning Portland and threatening its normal, careful residents in the service of his ostensible support of BLM, but he doesn't know any African Americans.
Across the country and especially in this awful year, he's among many persons looking for meaning and finding it by engaging in thuggery.
There's a word for people like these: Losers.
If they were real terrorists, wouldn't Bob Mueller be helping them flee the country right about now?
The stench of the left's totalitarians grows stronger.
"Why is it that these people increasingly sound like Tories?"
I call "liberals" and other modern State-fellators "The New Tories." If you read the literature of the pre-1776 era, the Radical Whigs sounds a lot like modern libertarians, while their opponents sound a lot like modern "liberals." Many modern historians, sympathetic to the statist side in any argument, have accused the Radical Whigs prone to conspiracy theories' but at least one of their defenders (I'm guessing it was Bernard Bailyn) has said that the British Crown was guilty of exactly the kind of conspiracies their Tory critics (Old and New) were dismissing as so much pishposh. Sound familiar?
Strangely enough, I don't recall McCord's condemnation of the shooting attack on the GOP legislators on a soft ball field or the assault of Rand Paul. If it wasn't well known that all journalists are fair and truthful....I'd swear McCord is a cheap political hack.
So when they defund the police who will provide the local "law" and order?
A local gang, a vigilante mob, a local militia? How can you tell a local militia apart from a gang protecting its turf, Antifa (who autocorrect insists on capitalizing) protecting their autonomous zone, or some other neighborhood organizing to keep these two out?
If we are seeing the organization of local militias, it just might be because people see the rise of "anti-militias" that intend to take over the role of police and selectively enforce the "law" as they see it. Their "laws" include persecution of anyone who is not actively with them and destruction of property for anyone against them.
So... we have an Anti-Trump anarchist and a BLM supporter involved, but these are supposed to be right-wing militia??? I’m calling yet another bullshit Deep State concocted frame job.
The definition of a militia is interesting and subject to much wiggle room. Like many liberals might argue about their own disputed actions, if you don't call yourself a militia, you can't be one.
People can arm themselves and train together in preparation for personal protection or community defense if called on for further training and deployment by local government, but they wouldn't be a militia because they don't call themselves that. How about "Adult Scouting"?
Oh and a fundamental right of a people established in our declaration of independence is to rebel and overthrow tyranny. However, you must be committed and prepared for the consequences if you fail.
“One of alleged plotters, 23-year-old Daniel Harris, attended a Black Lives Matter protest in June, telling the Oakland County Times he was upset about the killing of George Floyd and police violence.”
Now they'll have to release him.
What's the definition of militia? Is it necessary or sufficient that a group call itself a militia?
The definition of militia is in the constitution. Every male between the ages of 17 and 30, With the 14 amendment, it would now include the other 23 1/2 genders.
Others have already fisked the idiocy of the "opinion" about militias.
Another story of an Inga-approved previously deported illegal alien "spark of divinity" killer taking the life of a father of 3:
https://cnycentral.com/news/local/undocumented-immigrant-pleads-guilty-to-drunk-driving-crash-that-killed-weedsport-man
I hope that dead father appreciated dying at the hands of such a wonderful "spark of divinity" type of guy and that his 3 children take to heart what Pelosi and Inga have to say.
rhhardin wrote:
>"My offhand first reaction was doubt that they could have pulled it off, not that groups of this or that kind ought to be legally banned for groupiness."
Yeah, assuming the government's accusations are accurate, these guys were silly little boys playing at being revolutionaries. My guess is that they were really into video games and Marvel comics.
My understanding is that such groups are often heavily infiltrated by the feds. No doubt some of their members are goofy enough to think that being a "double agent" is super-cool.
Too much reading of escapist fiction and too little reading of history.
Dave Miller in Sacramento
Except for the first and second amendments, who cares?
Does Mary McCord have a constitutional right to exist?
A well regulated militia operates within the framework of the Constitution. It is similar in nature to the military, but consists of private citizens, who prepare (e.g. hunting, self-defense) to serve in a militia, in order to stand for the Constitution and America, against transgressors foreign and domestic. As noted by Balfegor, this is separable from the right of people to associate and assemble.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes
A mask mandate in public, even if unproductive, counterproductive, would probably not violate the prudence clause. Vote.
That said, probable? Actionable? Realized? Thought crime?
Rob C said...So antifa is an idea but some nut jobs call themselves a militia and they all have to go? Convenient that.
--
Duuude!
Well, they were caught. But, they also should strike fear in overreaching politicians and bureaucrats. I don’t support violence but I also don’t support authoritarianism. One, sadly, begets the other.
Some reports have one of the leaders, Caserta, as having been seen as a misfit since high school, and expected to get into some kind of similar trouble.
Wouldn't be the first time the fibbies have used a mental case to punch up their arrest numbers.
Still, it could be worse. Five years ago, the fibbies enabled a couple of jihadis to shoot up a cartoon exhibition in Garland, Tx. It being Texas, both were dropped on the spot.
wiki has a lot on that, including the subsequent lawsuit. It failed, the judge ruling that the egregious behavior of the agent in question was within the rules, which will give you an idea of the rules.
The article Althouse quotes is written from ignorance.
The idea of a "militia" dates to before the Revolution, specifically to the French and Indian War. Militias had no attachment to "the state."
The French paid the Indians to attack settlements in the Far West, which was then Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Western New York. The settlers self-organized to resist these attacks. The militia consisted of every local adult male with a gun. The militia was raised to address a specific problem and was dissolved after that issue was addressed.
It is impossible to overstate the ignorance of modern academics. They are dunces.
You know who's organized, heavily armed and actually shooting a lot of people?
Criminal gangs.
I don't think a group of intelligence and law enforcement agents armed with the latest surveillance technology and dedicated to over-throwing the legitimately elected government has a constitutional right to exist either, but there they are.
It is 100% true that just because these guys shouldn't have plotted to kidnap her, it doesn't make Whitmer a good governor. She has overstepped.
(in her speech announcing/denouncing this plot, she once again went to the "I hate having to do this" well. Saying she understands how hard it must be for business that are going under. But does she understand? Because she alone has the power to do something about it)
I wonder why the group with a flag, ideology, chapters, and doctrine known as antifa isn't considered a militia.
The militia with no name, how fucking uncool is that. Even the Angela Davis group had a name. Then there are the Weathermen and Baader–Meinhof. Fuck!, even small town gun clubs have cool patches and officers.
Lucid-Ideas said...
.....
McCord should fuck off right back to London.
10/9/20, 3:21 PM
Ha ha! That gave me a good chuckle. Apropos.
This is a complete misinterpretation of the constitution and statutes of the 50 states. While I’m most familiar with Kentucky statutes, I suspect most states are worded such that any militia must be subordinate to civil powers. It’s easy to assume that civil powers refers to those in government, but it says no such thing.
In this case, a group has declared themselves a militia (no problem, we can call ourselves what we like), have grouped together (1st amendment), and are armed (2nd amendment). However, they have no, and have intended to act, with no civil oversight, which would be illegal.
(KY also has statues preventing groups from ‘playing army’, as It wouldn’t be a surprise MI has, but that’s irrelevant in this case).
I trust nothing the NYT prints.
Sometimes public figures mess up and speak what they truly believe. They should be destroyed utterly and removed from public life every time they do so in the manner of this individual.
"The militia with no name, how fucking uncool is that. Even the Angela Davis group had a name"
American Citizen.
Howz zat?
Rusty
I agree with you, American Citizens. I was making fun of these losers with no name.
I doubt they were an actual militia, no more than ten armed guys holding up a Brinks truck. The fucking FBI has no credibility. I imagine they would call a neighborhood watch a militia if it worked in the press.
“ The article Althouse quotes is written from ignorance.”
I really don’t think so. McCord is Lawfare. Which says to m that it was very deliberate misinformation.
@narciso said...
the same mary mccord who ran the fisa operation against trump, whose legal advisor was atkinson
So Mary McCord worked for with the guy (Michael Atkinson) who properly turned over the whistleblower report to House Intelligence on Trump's illegal attempt to get the Ukraine to lie about Biden. That puts Mary McCord in my highest regard category. The failure of Senate Republicans to do their job in the face of overwhelming evidence against Trump, we are living with a crazy man in charge today.
Well for all the talk of militia and Constitutional rights; one of the accused kidnappers was recently pardoned by the Democrat governor of Delaware. He was previously convicted of armed robbery. Anybody else famous from Delaware?
“ MadisonMan said...
I realize paid-for pundits have to say something about this now, but I am reserving judgement. I wish to know how much the FBI involvement propped the plot up.”
Yeah, it’s like Randy Weaver. Minding his own business until an ATF(?) agent cajoled him into breaking the law. Or the KKK—now, what, 25 hillbillies and several hundred FBI agent “infiltrators”.
“ Blogger Duke Dan said...
Chicago is full of armed militias”
Those militias are different. Because reasons.
This idiot thinks groups need Constitutional authorization to exist?
It's bizarre some people think nothing should happen unless government approves it. The very concept of freedom is foreign to them.
Rick writes: "This idiot thinks groups need Constitutional authorization to exist."
Apparently so. I used to edit a magazine that did not cover politics, but it was clear to anyone wide awake that we were libertarians. We used to get letters from some guy in Canada whose attitude was "everything not expressly permitted by Big Brother is forbidden." Reading his letters--and similar letters from other Canadians made me wonder if Canada had become one of the Iron Curtain countries. But it was the complete opposite of a free man's attitude. This guy wouldn't go to the bathroom, it seemed, without getting a permission slip from Big Brother.
“ So Mary McCord worked for with the guy (Michael Atkinson) who properly turned over the whistleblower report to House Intelligence on Trump's illegal attempt to get the Ukraine to lie about Biden. That puts Mary McCord in my highest regard category. The failure of Senate Republicans to do their job in the face of overwhelming evidence against Trump, we are living with a crazy man in charge today.”
Hard to know where to start there. Here are some of the flaws with your statement:
1) Congress has no oversight authority over the White House, because it wasn’t created by Congress, but is rather a core part of the Executive, a separate and coequal branch of government. No Oversight means no IG oversight.
2) conduct of foreign policy is a core Executive function, and the complaint was that it was improper. Vindman, etc had no moral or legal authority to determine foreign policy and to second guess the President.
3) If Congress had had oversight authority (they didn’t), it would have been the foreign relations committee that they should have reported to, not the Intelligence committee.
4) IG AtkinSon only had oversight over the operation of the intelligence community agencies. None of them were involved. Not the CIA, DNI, etc.
5) It wasn’t a legitimate whistleblower report, because no crime (except for the whistleblowing itself, and the violations of the Espionage Act that allowed the WB to get his information) was reported.
6) It didn’t qualify under the WB statute because It was pure hearsay, with little reliability and reason to believe that it was credible. And, it turns out that it was wrong, in the important areas, according to the transcript of the call.
7) The DOJ determined that IG Atkinson had no jurisdiction in the matter before the “whistleblower report” was turned over. Ditto, the DNI IG. He did it anyway.
What must be remembered is that Atkinson worked for McCord at the DOJ before she was forced out for her part in illegally acquiring the four FISA warrants on Carter Page. She then went to work for Lawfare and then HPSCI chair Schifty. It is fairly obvi9us that the “whistleblowing” was a setup by Schifty and his Dem HPSCI staffers (esp including McCord) and Atkinson. This was typical Lawfare misuse of judicial process. Nothing more.
So much for your “properly turned over the whistleblower report”.
The ICAP is a political agitprop group that engages in partisan litigation and should not receive nonprofit status let alone consult with the DOJ. Litigation is listed as its mission statement, which also should removed it from affioiation with Georgetown Law.
There are many types of weapons wielded by militias. IACP is a militia.
The Legion of State-shtuppers is going to town on this on YouTube, And in all the YouTube videos on this I've seen, Whitmer always had that deranged look Leftist women tends to have. I wonder if they ever realize that. I'll bet Inga looks like Madame Defarge on crack.
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