१८ जुलै, २०२०

What is the real "free speech problem" on the left from the point of view of a real leftist?

I'm reading "Do Progressives Have a Free Speech Problem?/The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist" by Michelle Goldberg (NYT). Goldberg signed the "Letter on Justice and Open Debate" that was published in Harper's, and she's using this column to expand on the topic.

She says she initially declined to sign the letter, "in part because it denounced 'cancel culture'" — a term she associates with "right-wing whiners like Ivanka Trump who think protests against them violate their free speech." I'd like to see the first draft! I want to know what had to be taken out to get so many signatures. At least we know what one person says she objected to and that it was, she says, edited out. Goldberg notes that discussions of the letter have talked about "cancel culture," even though the words aren't in the draft.

After avoiding writing about the subject — telling herself other things are more important — she got triggered by the "scathing rejoinder" written by Hannah Giorgis (in The Atlantic):
“Facing widespread criticism on Twitter, undergoing an internal workplace review, or having one’s book panned does not, in fact, erode one’s constitutional rights or endanger a liberal society.”

This sentence brought me up short; one of these things is not like the others. Anyone venturing ideas in public should be prepared to endure negative reviews and pushback on social media. Internal workplace reviews are something else. If people fear for their livelihoods for relatively minor ideological transgressions, it may not violate the Constitution — the workplace is not the state — but it does create a climate of self-censorship and grudging conformity....

John McWhorter, an associate professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia who signed the Harper’s Letter, told me that in recent days he’s heard from over 100 graduate students and professors, most of them left of center, who fear for their professional prospects if they get on the wrong side of left-wing opinion.

Some on the left have argued, fairly, that those worried about people losing their jobs for running afoul of progressive orthodoxies should do more to strengthen labor protections, since all sorts of employees are vulnerable to capricious termination.... But it seems strange to me to argue that in the absence of better labor law, the left is justified in taking advantage of precarity to punish people for political disagreements.
There, she's rejecting the idea of putting left-wing political goals (better labor law) ahead of free speech. But she does flag a real argument that she says exists on the left: Let the opponents of strict labor laws experience the pain of firing just for saying the wrong thing so they'll come around and support our legislation. "Some" are saying that, but Goldberg declares it "strange." Is it "strange" that the left would sacrifice free speech as a means to an end it thinks is more important? Or is it just too openly offensive to work and "strange" to think that it could?
None of this is an argument for a totally laissez-faire approach to speech; some ideas should be stigmatized.... But it’s a problem when the range of proscribed speech is so wide that the rules are hard to even explain to those not steeped in left-wing mores.
Now, I'm starting to get the feeling that the "problem" for the left is that its position on free speech is hurting its overall agenda. It's good to stigmatize ideas, but so many ideas are stigmatized that ordinary people — people not "steeped in left-wing mores" — can't even understand what they're not supposed to say. If you put their jobs at risk and you can't "even explain" what the firing offense is, then "it's a problem." It's a problem because it's outrageously unfair and repressive? Or is it a problem because the left-wing will trigger opposition if it scares the hell out of people?
Writing in the 1990s, at a time when feminists like Catharine MacKinnon sought to curtail free speech in the name of equality, the great left-libertarian Ellen Willis described how progressive movements sow the seeds of their own destruction when they become censorious. It’s impossible, Willis wrote, “to censor the speech of the dominant without stifling debate among all social groups and reinforcing orthodoxy within left movements. Under such conditions a movement can neither integrate new ideas nor build support based on genuine transformations of consciousness rather than guilt or fear of ostracism.”...
Aha! The quote from "the great" Ellen Willis comes right out and admits that freedom is not an end in itself and what matters is the political agenda of the "left movement." You want to encourage people to join by inspiring real belief. Scaring them and guilt-tripping them into orthodoxy — Willis claimed — won't build the foundation you need for the movement. In Goldberg's words, the left will "sow the seeds of their own destruction" if it chooses censorship as its means to its end.
Of the conservative campaign against political correctness in the 1990s, [Willis] wrote, “Predictably, their valid critique of left authoritarianism has segued all too smoothly into a campaign of moral intimidation,” one “aimed at demonizing egalitarian ideas, per se, as repressive.”

The same is happening today; the president throws tantrums about “cancel culture” while regularly trying to use the power of the state to quash speech he dislikes.
What does that refer to? I don't know.
Because Trump poisons everything he touches, his movement’s hypocritical embrace of the mantle of free speech threatens to devalue it, turning it into the rhetorical equivalent of “All Lives Matter.”
That is: It hurts the left to allow the right to have possession of the free speech banner, the left-wing agenda is the end, and the position on free speech should be crafted to serve that end.
But to let this occur is to surrender what has historically been a sacred left-wing value.
I think, to be honest, Goldberg ought to replace "what has historically been a sacred left-wing value" with what the left has from time to time presented as a sacred value. I no longer believe the left ever had this value, only that it used the idea in its rhetoric when it wanted more free speech for itself or when seeming to have this value worked as a means to an end.

And Goldberg isn't embracing free speech as a sacred value! She's saying that the theater of holding free speech sacred is too effective to cede to the right.
One reason many on the right want to be seen as free speech defenders is that they understand that the power to break taboos can be even more potent than the power to create them.
That's one of those sentences you have to rewrite to understand. Let me try: By making speech taboo, the left empowers the right to seem heroic for championing freedom. Again, that's about means and ends. Punishing people for saying the wrong thing is a bad choice of means, because instead of concentrating on why one ought to believe the right thing, you let your antagonists avoid the substantive debate and attack you for opposing freedom of speech.
Even sympathetic people will come to resent a left that refuses to make distinctions between deliberate slurs, awkward mistakes and legitimate disagreements.
So... maybe some punishment of speech would work well as a means to the accomplishment of a left-wing agenda, but because the left has reached so far in defining what speech is punishable, people — even people who would be inclined to support the left — are roused from their complacency. It doesn't work, so it's not a good idea.
Cowing people is not the same as converting them.
Again, we see the goal: winning converts for the left-wing agenda.

Now, I say freedom is an end in itself, but that's not the only basis for supporting freedom of speech, and Golberg's last sentence — "Cowing people is not the same as converting them" — does point at another reason — a strong reason — for supporting free speech that I think is worthy and important. This is the idea that people have minds and they should hear a free and open debate so they can choose for themselves what to believe. You can compel people to outwardly manifest a belief, but then — if they have some depth and consciousness — they don't really believe. You just get shallow acquiescence.

If you're really dedicated to your political agenda, however, you might think: I don't care how deep or shallow the populace is. I just want my group in power.

And isn't that what lefties think is always going on anyway — groups acquiring and consolidating power?

१०१ टिप्पण्या:

Oso Negro म्हणाले...

Internal workplace reviews are, IN FACT, happening now. The barrier between private life and work life is broken, and the New Orthodoxy requires that employees embrace the pretensions of the faculty lounge on Facebook. It's quite something. I would enjoy seeing an all-star team of Ivy League feminists or Grievance Studies experts apply critical theory to operation of an oil refinery. It may be coming to that, and you better get on your walking shoes.

FleetUSA म्हणाले...

"Goldbert"? typo

Unknown म्हणाले...

Its so rare to hear a TRUE leftists point of view

Shouting Thomas म्हणाले...

You, professor, and Andrew Sullivan, are among those to blame this attack on free speech.

Your pretend oppression game led to the creation of Marxist feminist and gay indoctrination centers on every campus and in every HR office. Your indoctrination camps created this monster you’re now fighting.

Now, we all have to live with the institutional lies you wanted to mandate. There are no innate differences between men and women. Flirting is assault, Two guys screwing is marriage. Every kid gets pounded with Marxist feminist and gay indoctrination at every level of the educational establishment.

You and Sullivan led the charge to undermine all moral authority and institutions in favor of your own sexual peccadilloes. And both of you were lying outrageously. There was no history of the oppression of women and gays. You’re both rich kids, and you were just doing it for the dramatic emotional hit.

This panic over free speech is partly of your construction. You’re a Menshevik. You just didn’t think the Bolsheviks would get around to censorship, canceling elections and executions. But, they are. You thought the play acting by rich kids would stop at the point you considered reasonable. There’s always another generation of spoiled rich kids who love to play act terror and revolution.

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

"The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right."

That's a lie right there.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right."

To analyze that statement to go with what I'm saying in the post — to Goldberg, the threat isn't about how much freedom of speech would be sacrificed and how "illiberal" they'd make our culture. It's about the overall political agenda to be achieved through illiberalism. The left agenda is good and the right agenda is bad, so quite aside from the problem of losing freedom, the right is more threatening because of what it's using illiberal means to achieve. Even if the right were less illiberal than the left, it would still be more threatening because of its agenda.

Sorry to sledgehammer!

Leland म्हणाले...

Great post Althouse! I can't say much more about the issue of free speech than what is written. However,

And isn't that what lefties think is always going on anyway — groups acquiring and consolidating power?

This is my problem with the COVID lockdown; power has now been consolidated in the hands of just a few elected people. I won't expand to detract from the great post, but I think the left has overplayed their hand in more than just attacking free speech.

MD Greene म्हणाले...

The left, as currently constituted in our much-constricted national "discussion," does not believe in free speech. It believes in coercion and silencing.

This may not be exactly the same thing as Maoism, but you can see it from here. That is why this "canceling" crap offends people.

If you "feel" someone is a racist because something he said can be contorted to fit your strained definition of such, well, guess what? You're one of the re-education camp wardens.

Shouting Thomas म्हणाले...

I was not blunt enough.

Get rid of your Marxist feminism, professor.

There is no other kind of feminism.

Your ideology is the wellspring and cause of this attack on free speech.

It’s difficult to take your pleadings for free speech seriously. Your Marxist feminism cannot be reconciled with free speech.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

You want free speech because you're interested in ideas. That's what jokes are about.

MikeDC म्हणाले...

the left has from time to time presented as a sacred value.

I agree with most of your post, it it’s important to recognize that “the left” (and “the right”) have no values because they are not people. Individuals have values and they collectively take the political sides “left” and “right”.

The trick is putting those on both sides who see the bigger picture (which includes the humanity of the other side, the general welfare, and thus, free speech) in positions of authority. Because, basically, the right and the general public doesn’t punish the left. The left, in the sense of the political and economic organizations full of left wing people punish the left. If they left people in their movement advance through destroying each other, it’s because their leadership was willing.

Same is true on the right, though it’s less important at the moment. The scope of what political people can get away with is defined by the willingness to police itself. The authorities and leaders on the left have to be willing to police the left.

Matt Sablan म्हणाले...

It's like the author never heard of the Heckler's Veto. It isn't Democratic or left-leaning speakers at colleges that lead to violent protests, for example.

Anyone who says the right is worse on Free Speech is, at best, still living in the mid-1900s and thinking about when the right was offended by putting crucifixes in piss and calling art.

narciso म्हणाले...

100 million dead, reasons for concern?

Johnathan Birks म्हणाले...

Do you love it
Do you hate it
There it is
The way you made it

- Frank Zappa

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

"The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right."

I wonder which way her eyes were pointed when she wrote that obvious falsehood.

Jamie म्हणाले...

And isn't that what lefties think is always going on anyway — groups acquiring and consolidating power?

As usual, they're doing what they accuse others of doing - though I suspect now that that formulation is stated backwards. It may be more accurate to say, "They do what they do, believing their actions to be natural and unavoidable, even if morally wrong. And then, because it doesn't occur to them that others may avoid doing those things out of moral qualms, they accuse their opponents of doing those 'natural, unavoidable' things when they think the accusation can help them." They see the world in terms of a power struggle in which there can never be a mutually beneficial equilibrium, only coups to replace the group at the top with a different group - and they want to be the replacement; so they act as if their assumption is real.

Of course she says free speech ought to be high ground claimed by the Left in service of their agenda. But you notice that when she says it ought to be employed correctly so people aren't just "cowed" into acceptance of the agenda, she doesn't say that free speech itself should be used to "persuade"; she says the idea of Leftist support for free speech ought to be used to "convert." That's a very different beast.

buwaya म्हणाले...

The general left-wing problem with free speech is an old one.
It goes back to the roots of the left, in the radicalization phase of the French Revolution.

Regardless of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, or even the Montagnard constitution of 1793 (never implemented), in spite of all the fine words and often fantastic theories, the real operating principle of the French left was simply power.

And so it has been ever since.

The left, any left, is fundamentally in a state of war against any society or polity or culture within which it exists.

Jamie म्हणाले...

She says she initially declined to sign the letter, "in part because it denounced 'cancel culture'"

Any bets on whether the rest of why she didn't sign the letter at first was because she feared for her job?

GatorNavy म्हणाले...

This latest version of the goose stepping left has already lost John Waters. What more do you need to know?


https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/john-waters-interview

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

Back in the day, Ellen Willis equated any speech that condemned her extreme version of feminist potty-mouthism with oppression.

But she seems a relic of liberty compared to the current tinpot fascists at the Times.
Also everywhere else. All revolutions end in camps.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe म्हणाले...

Seems to me she's fine with canceling as long as the conservatives are the ones being canceled. Otherwise, we'd have heard from her earlier.

It's only now that people like her are getting canceled that she suddenly decides it's a problem. I don't buy the crap that giving the right the free-speech issue is detrimental to the movement. It's just detrimental to her. I think it's been very successful for the movement.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

Even if the right were less illiberal than the left, it would still be more threatening because of its agenda.

That certainly is the propaganda the whole DNC-Edu-Media runs on. The truth is that Progressivism denies equality and freedom as goals and is not even hiding those tyrannical tendencies. COVID has exposed a lot. Just compare Governor Whitmer to Governor Noem during the pandemic. One’s ideology led to free people making their own decisions and low death rate, the other larded on executive orders that had to be removed by courts and led to sheriffs refusing to enforce the governor’s crazy decrees.

So fuck these “liberals” and their agenda fantasies. The arcs of history are clear, either you tend toward tyranny or freedom. Freedom scares progressives because it means no one will pay their bills for them. Period. If these riotous youth had to pay their own way they’d be doing something positive not rioting.

wildswan म्हणाले...

Just want to add on that I've read that if you are a member of the Communist party you CAN freely discuss possibilities while the Party is evolving a position as long as thereafter at all times you support the position chosen, including violently and abusively condemning people who support the position you yourself argued for in intra-party debate and that you yourself think is right. That's why it's pointless arguing in private with a hard leftist on party positions - they might agree with you from the start but will never say so, even in private. Know who you are talking to.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Theagendda being?

Lyle Smith म्हणाले...

That bitch loves to project.

Jaq म्हणाले...

If you have an coordinated oligopoly on mainstream publication and use it to control what ideas can be published, how is that different from having a coordinated oligopoly on some commodity, and using it to set prices? What is the difference? Maybe anti-trust laws violate the constitution.

Right now it’s liberals who are under attack by leftists. When Biden wins the White House, these Red Guard types are going to run the show with the same threats and no Democrat will dare stand up to them. Traditional liberalism, not classical liberalism, is the real victim of this cancel culture. Traditional liberals in all media have been discriminating against conservatives for ages. We have adapted.

I am happy that I lived during a time of free thought, my kids have been indoctrinated to the new way of thinking. It’s pretty sad to see, but I will be gone in thirty years, probably, you kids enjoy what the Marxists have wrought for you. If you are lucky you will be given a list of dreams for your life you are allowed to have, like the NBA players have been given an approved list of political statements they can make on their jerseys. All approved by paymaster Xi of course. You will be “free” like the "free range chickens” produced for supermarkets. “Well, they can’t really be free! Imagine the costs!"

daskol म्हणाले...

Free speech as a value in itself is pure Enlightenment-inspired, white supremacist valuing of a principle: if speech doesn't serve to liberate humanity from oppression or some other revolutionary purpose, what is good for? Just a laugh?

अनामित म्हणाले...

"If you put their jobs at risk and you can't 'even explain' what the firing offense is, then 'it's a problem.' It's a problem because it's outrageously unfair and repressive? Or is it a problem because the left-wing will trigger opposition if it scares the hell out of people?" It's been a problem for quite some time, and anyone who's worked for a big American company during that time, as contrasted, with, um, being a faculty member at a law school, would immediately recognize the issue and also understand that threatening livelihoods is not new, is not from the right and is more recently becoming almost impossible for the ordinary person to avoid. And that's the whole point of the threat from the left: to keep ordinary people scared and thereby docile. One could see this coming in early 90s sexual harassment training. An exasperated engineer from Pakistan told the instructor, "Please just tell us what we're not supposed to do, and we won't do it." The instructor was not amused and never did answer that request with any clarity. Where did this crap start? Meritor Savings Bank, that's where. Prof. Mackinnon and her legion of man haters convinced the courts to open the door to curtailing speech in the name of some sort of improvement in working conditions for women. Today's climate is exactly what should have been expected. Kind of like tearing down statutes of Washington and Jefferson.

CWJ म्हणाले...

"Cowing people is not the same as converting them."

Boy, does that bring back memories of a Ben Shahn poster that seemed to be everywhere on or bear campuses during my college years. "You have not converted a man because you have silenced him."

iowan2 म्हणाले...

It's good to stigmatize ideas, but so many ideas are stigmatized that ordinary people — F

Are todays radical leftist this stupid, or just think their followers are this stupid?

Who has the power to stigmatize?
So old european white guys are out of favor. But they could lead. They saved the world in WWII and came home. The european white guys built, what the leftists are destroying. They were on the city council, the Lions Club. They ran the law shops, and accounting firms. They created manufacturing enterprises from the ground up, or doubled in size existing ones. They created. But most important, at every single level, they led.

There's your essence. POWER. This whole fucking dustup is about power. The leftist think they have the upper hand, power wise. Maybe they do. This election is too close. No coalition can be cobbled together to run for city council, on short notice. Not all seats are up for election. But in two years, the people will be ready for real leadership. Not a group from the faculty lounge, trying to sound the smartest, while having no talent or experience in actual leadership. But real leaders with vision and ideals that with stand examination, and challenge.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

“She says she initially declined to sign the letter, "in part because it denounced 'cancel culture'" — a term she associates with "right-wing whiners like Ivanka Trump who think protests against them violate their free speech."”

Bad faith right off the bat: you oppose something because you “associate” it with your opponents, and the association is itself BS—does Ivanka even say that protests violate her free speech? What does that have to do with a museum curator losing his job over a comment about collecting white men’s art?

“I no longer believe the left ever had this value, only that it used the idea in its rhetoric when it wanted more free speech for itself or when seeming to have this value worked as a means to an end.”

OK, now generalize. Which left ideas are not “means to an end”? If you think any idea, particularly the idea of freedom, matters in itself, you have only one political choice.

“You can compel people to outwardly manifest a belief, but then — if they have some depth and consciousness — they don't really believe. You just get shallow acquiescence. If you're really dedicated to your political agenda, however, you might think: I don't care how deep or shallow the populace is. I just want my group in power. And isn't that what lefties think is always going on anyway — groups acquiring and consolidating power?”

All correct. Goldberg may prefer “conversion,” and “free” speech insofar as it promotes conversion, but she and her fellow pseudo-liberals are perfectly fine with cowing as a good second-best.

“Even if the right were less illiberal than the left, it would still be more threatening because of its agenda. Sorry to sledgehammer!”

No need to apologize. We prefer the cruel not-neutral Althouse.

wendybar म्हणाले...

As long as you repeat their talking points and their agenda, you can have free speech....otherwise you are a homophobic, islamophobic, RACIST.....You must think alike, you must think alike you must think alike, you must think alike......

Kevin म्हणाले...

Let’s boil this down: collectivism vs. individualism, which side is for free speech?

n.n म्हणाले...

One conception of Critical Theory is social justification to force a consensus by any means necessary, without regard for collateral damage in the present and on a forward-looking basis. Humanity dies at the Twilight Fringe. Wicked.

Ampersand म्हणाले...

This post does an exceptionally good job of capturing the underlying assumptions of Michelle Goldberg and her intended audience. I hope it causes readers of this blog to see how widespread those assumptions are among the elites. The Covid riots have taken masks off in more ways than one.

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

There is a line at the NYT on Free Speech, did Michelle Goldberg go over it?

Going over it means being driven out of the NYT. Bari Weiss and James Bennet both went over what is politically acceptable at the NYT, and were forced out.

William म्हणाले...

The NYC Government in the person of the Mayor himself painted BLACK LIVES MATTER in huge, block long, yellow letters in front of the Trump Tower. In both placement and size these letters were meant to shock and overawe bystanders and especially those who might be in sympathy with President Trump. Not a safe space to wear a MAGA hat. In my opinion, this was definitely an act of government to inhibit free speech and thought....DeBlasio's act was grandiose and aggressive. It made the sentiment expressed seem both grandiose and compulsory. I have yet to read any left wing pundit express condemnation for this Prime Directive.....Some people are not in agreement with the Prime Directive. The sign has been defaced twice in recent days. Although free speech covers such activities as burning the American flag, defacing DeBlasio's Prime Directive has no such carve out. The last two protesters were arrested. The guess here is that they will be prosecuted by the authorities with far more resolve and zeal than any of the other vandals.

NCMoss म्हणाले...

Crack said, "The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right."

OK, take an American flag to a mostly peaceful BLM protest and see how long before you get pounded for being insensitive.

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

The Crack MC at 6:57 has it right.

There are zero leftwing dominated institutions or Governments that do not attack free speech or do not seek to punish dissenters.

The left has always been illiberal. When they are in complete power, they send people that dissent to work/death camps.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Analyzing Michelle Goldberg is like analyzing a 14 y/o. Anyway, Goldie just comes out and says it straight out: Cancelling Right-winger was fun, but now its gone too far, and people like Goldie are at risk!

As for her other point, its bad for the Left to APPEAR to be against free speech. This is also the Left-wing position on Freedom of Religion and Patriotism. Its bad for the Left to APPEAR to be unpatriotic or too anti-Religion so they should watch their step. Don't give the Right a weapon. But that does NOT mean they are actually patriotic or don't hate religion.

Biden and other D's are now taking crazy positions like open borders or defunding the police. They were ALWAYS in favor of it, but had to APPEAR to be against it for political reasons. Now, they can throw off the mask and be open about it. Strangely, dumbos on the right don't want to see that and want to BELIEVE that "Good ol' moderate Joe" is *really* against all that. Stupid - but that's the way lots of Republicans are.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Every society has limits on free speech. "Fighting words" and pornography have always been banned or limited. However, political speech has never been censored to the extent it is now.

The people in charge of the media and Big Business don't want to discuss thing anymore. Instead, they want to give orders and crush anyone who disagrees. They've tried to crush Trump, but he's been remarkable. Sadly, you have this big blob of morons who never wake up and see what's going on. They'll be crying soon, when things start threatening their physical safety or their pocketbook. Whether that will rouse them from their political stupor is unclear.

Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...

Was it wrong for White Southern business owners in the sixties to fire blacks for registering to vote? Was it unconstitutional? They weren’t the government, and had no obligation to uphold the Constitutional rights of anyone. black workers were free to register, while culturally appropriating democracy, if they chose to, and free from having to work if they did.

Temujin म्हणाले...

The left no longer has any claim to the mantel of free speech. They've spent too much time over the last 2 decades stomping on it. First in the universities, then the media, and now the corporations. They may believe that they are the descendants of Mario Savio and Jack Weinberg and in a way, they are. In a very socialist way. But the idea of free speech has never been a pillar of socialism. Michelle Goldberg thinks the left stands for free speech. If it ever did, it was years ago and for a short time only. Today the left stands for groupthink and censorship. That she is determined to walk around with ear plugs and blindfolds is her problem.

At least she can be surrounded by other blindfolded, ear-plugged people at the Times who will agree with her. They can meet at cocktail parties and talk about how racist and bigoted people on the right need to be removed from her paper, or not allowed on tv, or not allowed to have a network to watch on tv, or, hell with it, just put them all into camps.

tds म्हणाले...

senator McCarthy was a hero. You burn the communism early and with a white-hot iron. Otherwise it spreads

The Godfather म्हणाले...

The Left supported free speech when the Left thought that it’s speech was under attack. Now that the Left dominates the media and the academy, it has no need for freedom of speech — quite the contrary.

bagoh20 म्हणाले...

""The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right.""

"...Even if the right were less illiberal than the left, it would still be more threatening because of its agenda.

Sorry to sledgehammer!"


Perfectly fine, since this is really the whole issue.

I'd like to hear what is so threatening about the Right's agenda, understanding that the modern Right has nothing to to do with the cartoon White supremacist, and neo Nazi bullshit that only exists in small dark basements, and the dark imagination of the left.

The majority of the country that the left hates just wants to be left alone to work, prosper and enjoy their freedom while respecting everyone else's How could that be anywhere near as threatening as the Left has been with real destruction, intimidation, and fascism that they seem so found of using for their agenda, which isn't even able to be explained in any understandable English.

Tell me the Left's agenda. I'll tell you the Right's, and well see who is threatening. I don't think a Leftist can even tell you their agenda without threatening you.

Wince म्हणाले...

The "free speech problem" seems to be that enforced orthodoxy is no longer just hurting just those who are right of center.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

This is why I read Althouse. What a dissection of an essay. It is doubtful that Goldberg is even aware of how badly she disguised her real motives. The real question is why can't Goldberg give an unqualified defense of free speech?

Goldberg's and Giorgis' essays both betray the "no enemies on the Left" trope. In this case, Giorgis is Lenin and Goldberg is Kerensky. All the Harpers signatories are Kerenskys.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Hall's formulation of Voltaire is not good enough for today's left intelligentsia.

bbkingfish म्हणाले...

It took the Republicans over 20 years to cancel millions of RINOs and other squishy species.

The twisted wreckage that remains in the space where the GOP once stood is a powerful example of the perversion that results from the enforcement of ideological uniformity.

Now, people are abandoning the GOP by the hundreds of thousands. It turns out that very few people want to belong to a party that looks to them so much like Jonestown.

Let us hope the Dems can nip this in the bud. 20 years of cancel culture and they, too, could end up in thrall to a crackpot.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Althouse,
You told everybody on the other side of your pet issues that they lost and should get over it.

You celebrated your power.

Explain how you are different?
What?
You think you are in charge of the slippery slope you cheered?
Enjoy the ride.

Original Mike म्हणाले...

Goldberg wrote: "Of the conservative campaign against political correctness in the 1990s, [Willis] wrote, “Predictably, their valid critique of left authoritarianism has segued all too smoothly into a campaign of moral intimidation,” one “aimed at demonizing egalitarian ideas, per se, as repressive.”"

Really? I don't remember anything like the tyranny of the "cancel culture" back then. I'd be happy to entertain examples.

Gahrie म्हणाले...

She says she initially declined to sign the letter, "in part because it denounced 'cancel culture'"

Any bets on whether the rest of why she didn't sign the letter at first was because she feared for her job?


Wait... are you saying she refused to denounce cancel culture because she was scared of being canceled? Hmm....

Jaq म्हणाले...

"Was it wrong for White Southern business owners in the sixties to fire blacks for registering to vote? Was it unconstitutional? “

It was just “consequences," is all. Just like getting fired for having an opinion twits don’t like.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Jamie,
You were on to a solid point but you stopped short.

The Left believes itself moral owing to their religious affiliation as members of the Church of Leftist Collectivism. Therefore, the Leftists believe that what they do *is* moral. That they act immorally as judged from your perspective is inconsequential. Your perspective does not matter. They are moral by definition. It is axiomatic.

Now, they recognize that others do not view them as superior moral beings. So they accuse others of what they are doing because they know that people do not like what they are doing.

But the committed Leftist Collectivist does not even admit the possibility of their potential immorality.

Jaq म्हणाले...

If Sullivan wasn’t so knee jerk and thoughtlessly anti Trump, and if he hadn’t developed an unhealthy obsession with Sarah Palin’s uterus, I might subscribe to his substack.

Wa St Blogger म्हणाले...

Right now the left controls most of the levers of influence: Media, colleges, schools, entertainment. They also have solid representation among business, sports and government. I can't think of any place that the right has control. As a result, they are doing what Lord Acton warned. They are corrupting because they have the power. Let us not be deluded into thinking that the right is better because the left is corrupt. If the right controlled as much space as the left does, we would have similar abuses. The battle needs to be less about right and left and more about how to balance the power so that neither side is able to abuse. Our founders got that theory right. Balance is the only answer. Free speech is an absolute good in and of itself because it is the best way to damper excess by any institution. Thus we need to promote speech above all else and fight any attempts to restrict it. Free speech is the end, not the means. Right now, a vote for democrats is a vote against free speech. It does not matter if the democrat is a principled person, he/she will vote with the party and that party will curtail free speech. Later, we might need to vote democrat because of the same reason should republicans gain too much power. Vote for the out-of-power party. Not based on Pres/congress, but across all institutions. The best thing we can do for this country is have a solid Republican controlled government so that the media and other institutions can be the balance. Anything Democrat will automatically be unbalanced. For now.

hombre म्हणाले...

“The illiberal left is a lot less threatening than the right. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”

There are a couple of differences here that an outspoken member of the amoral Democrat Left can’t or won’t acknowledge. First is influence. The illiberal left is the dominant force in the Democrat Party today. The “right,” whatever the hell that is, is not a dominant force among Republicans, who are largely centrists. The bogeyman right who invade the dreams and the writing of Goldberg and other leftist twits are insignificant in both numbers and influence.

Second is the “threat.” The mainstream “right” may pose a threat to the warped ideology of Democrat leftists like Goldberg, but it does not threaten their civil or constitutional rights. The “illiberal” left is indistinguishable from the Democrat Left for the most part. Both are complicit in the dissolution of First and Second Amendment rights. Both are committed by action or inaction to the corruption of federal law enforcement and courts and the defunding of local law enforcement. Both are involved in cancelling people and their livelihoods for straying from the hive. Antifa and BLM are to Democrats what Brown Shirts were to Nazis. They are not severable.

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

I no longer believe the left ever had this value, only that it used the idea in its rhetoric when it wanted more free speech for itself or when seeming to have this value worked as a means to an end.

THIS is why I read the Althouse blog. I have been thinking that the recent essays by lefties sort of decrying the cancel culture mob attacks and the screaming foam-flecked insistence on ideological purity in the matters of White Supremacy, Systemic Racism, and White Fragility have been cautiously crafted to help take the edge off the tips of the mob’s pitchforks so that common sense traditional leftie voters wouldn’t run in fear into the arms of Trump.

Too late! When Althouse-the-White-Suburban-Female-Dem-Voter weathervane swings in the wind, the wind is already blowing. Most just haven’t yet detected it.

Cribbing a classic line from Justified (a great tv series by the way), our hostess is just a weathervane; she isn’t the wind. And a damn smart one at that.

- Krumhorn

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

You told everybody on the other side of your pet issues that they lost and should get over it.

You celebrated your power.


I disagree with our hostess on the substance of that issue. But she’s not shutting anyone up or getting anyone fired who disagrees. She did an end zone dance. So what? Obummer did one in the White House when he told what’shisname “I won!”. Again, so what?

It’s not the same issue at all.

- Krumhorn

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

Let us not be deluded into thinking that the right is better because the left is corrupt. If the right controlled as much space as the left does, we would have similar abuses. The battle needs to be less about right and left and more about how to balance the power so that neither side is able to abuse.

Horseshit. Any abuse of power by a leftie would be far far worse since the ideology of the modern left is authoritarian in every respect. The worst that a conservative could do to you is leave you alone too much. Oh, and don’t kill your babies.

- Krumhorn

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

I was surprised to see, as was noted, that John McWhorter is still an Associate Prof at Columbia. Is the left punishing him for his ideas? As I recall he got his PhD in the early 1990’s ( I bought his GreatCourses tapes and am a fan.)

As they say, science advances one funeral at a time. I wonder if these cowed grad students are going to change things a bit in future years. The attempt to have all academic papers approved by a wokeness committee scares everyone. I don’t know why anyone would want to be a grad student in climate science, what value would your intellectual effort be? It is all in the can, no more research needed, the debate is over.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

“Right agenda” doesn’t mean anything GOP stands for. Leftists aren’t that direct. When they say agenda of rights or fairness they really mean abortion more abortion and don’t even think of compromise on abortion. Let’s keep it clear.

Inga म्हणाले...

It would be great to read a deep dive into the cancel culture on the right. Do rightists deny there is such a phenomenon? How about the way Never Trumpers and RINOS have been treated? There is a very real demand for purity on the right, we’ve been witnessing it for quite sometime. Non Trumpist conservatives, even here in this blog’s comments sections are not only demeaned and insulted, there are daily calls for them to be deleted and shunned. Any comment even slightly negative toward Trump receives one attack, many of them personal after another. This blog’s comments sections would cancel any non Trumpists conservative if they had that power. Blogger doesn’t have a mechanism for banning (cancelling) a commenter, if it did we would see even more calls to ban certain commenters that expressive divergent opinions here. So I’d suggest taking the beam out of ones eye first before plucking at the splinter in the eyes of others. As for liberals, lefties, we are used to the reception we receive here, so it’s no big deal to be attacked for expressing our opinions. I’m never surprised anymore.

What the right seems to be expert at is denial that they cancel those not sufficiently Trump-like. It seems the left is far more willing to question one another and if we don’t want to fall into the purity trap that conservatives have we should continue to be introspective in our own ideology and strive to be more accepting of opinions that don’t strictly conform. We liberals, should strive to accept a range of opinions under the umbrella of liberalism.

Gahrie म्हणाले...

The Left wants to ban free speech for precisely the same reason kings banned peasants from owning weapons.

mockturtle म्हणाले...

“People don’t have ideas. Ideas have people.” — Carl Jung

George Leroy Tirebiter म्हणाले...

"shallow acquiescence": Doesn't that explain how Trump got elected when polls said otherwise? And how he'll be relected in November?

Birkel म्हणाले...

bbkingfish remains blissfully unaware of the voter registration numbers.

Motivated reasoning is hilarious to observe.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Krumhorn,
She cheered the advance of the Left's power.
And then she thought the Leftist Collectivists would stop their march when they reached "reasonable" goals.

We warned her that the Left had no logical stopping point.
She dismissed the Clarence Thomas dissents on social issues.
She thought Thomas was silly for invoking the slippery slope.

And now the Althouse wing of the Democratic Party finds itself slip sliding away.
They can feel the pace quickening.
They know their feet are unsteady.

Fuck 'em.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Royal-ass-Inga-World equivalents:

What the Leftist Collectivists are doing = what Royal ass Inga imagines the conservatives doing

Also, Royal ass Inga thinks conservatives should not demand their elected representatives faithfully represent the cons wrvative point of view.

IOW, Royal ass Inga does not believe in representative democracy.
Authoritarianism suits her better.

And I hope the authoritarians find her house forthwith.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

@McFadden1932 tweet:
"I am caught between playing nice enough that I can support my kids in the present and resisting/fighting enough that my kids might have a future."

Drago म्हणाले...

Inga: "What the right seems to be expert at is denial...."

Carter Page, russian spy or no?

Drago म्हणाले...

Inga: "What the right seems to be expert at is denial that they cancel those not sufficiently Trump-like."

Then, the very next line in the same post......

Inga: "It seems the left is far more willing to question one another and if we don’t want to fall into the purity trap that conservatives have we should continue to be introspective in our own ideology and strive to be more accepting of opinions that don’t strictly conform."

LOL

Discuss.

Drago म्हणाले...

bbkingfish: "The twisted wreckage that remains in the space where the GOP once stood...."

LOL

This is about the 18th time in my life I have been informed by leftists/marxists that the republican party was destroyed and would take generations to repair, if ever.

An evergreen story line from the marxists.

It's nothing but a moronic narrative pushed as part of the 50 year on-going lefty media disinformation operation which hopes to make conservatives and republicans feel isolated and that the fight isn't worth fighting anymore.

Very typical of marxist insurgencies.

Jim at म्हणाले...

Full-time gigs at The Bulwark and The Lincoln Project are proof positive the right's cancel culture is much, much worse than the left's.

Jim at म्हणाले...

We liberals, should strive to accept a range of opinions under the umbrella of liberalism.

You're not a liberal. There isn't a damn thing about you that's liberal.

You're a leftist. A totalitarian leftist.

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

Fortunately we already have a word for the perfectly constitutional practice of denying employment to those with incorrect political beliefs: McCarthyism.

5M - Eckstine म्हणाले...

Brocas area has telepathed the word illiberal to everyone. It used to never visit me. Now it comes by hourly.

effinayright म्हणाले...

Hey, Inga:

Wanna see what your ideological soulmates the Antifa are up to now?

https://dcdirtylaundry.com/us-authorities-uncover-massive-nationwide-weapons-trafficking-ring-run-by-communist-china-to-arm-black-lives-matter-terrorists-with-powerful-weapons-of-war/

"According to the CBP announcement from June 26th, the shipment originated in Shenzhen, China and was destined for “a residence” in Melbourne, Florida. Inside the shipment was over 10,000 small machine parts that function as full-auto drop-in upgrades for AR-15s. Natural News was able to determine that this operation was part of an attempt by communist China to destabilize the United States by arming Antifa and Black Lives Matter terrorists."

"Now, US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials have seized an operation in Detroit that smuggle suppressors (silencers) into the United States from China, also for the purpose of arming Black Lives Matter militant extremists."

Silencers.....full-auto AR-15s.

Yeah..that's what peaceful protesters carry.

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

How about the way Never Trumpers and RINOS have been treated? There is a very real demand for purity on the right, we’ve been witnessing it for quite sometime.

Inga, bless her heart, confuses the scornful treatment of the RINOs and NeverTrumpers with the screaming bug-eyed leftie mobs that incite their comrades to inundate employers to separate themselves from an offending view point and then brag about it later. If she can give us a single example where conservatives ever went after the livelihood of a NeverTrumper, I’ll concede her point.

Conservatives don’t go after advertisers on MSNBC or CNN at all. In sharp contrast, witness the assault on FoxNews advertisers by rabid lefties. If some leftie speaker appears at a university, conservatives don’t rush the stage, throw cream pies, and run the speaker out of the building.

Let’s face it, Inga. The lefties are nasty little shits

- Krumhorn

Jason म्हणाले...

>>The barrier between private life and work life is broken<<

Anybody ever see Doctor Zhivago? The private life is dead.

Rick म्हणाले...

The simple analysis to understand Goldberg et al oppose free speech is noting everything they say in defense of cancel culture would apply to other far left regimes like the Soviets or East Germany where any deviation from the dominant political narrative included job repercussions. The takeaway is noting if you accept their (self-serving) definitions then no punishment of speech is ever a problem.

rehajm म्हणाले...

We need to keep Republicans in power Ann so we hold them accountable for their superior threat skills.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Michelle Goldberg is always good for a snifter of "Ignorance is Strength" bourbon. Cheers!

Roger Sweeny म्हणाले...

If you believe the good people should run the government, and the government should run everything, there isn't any room for freedom of speech--or freedom of thought.

Isn't the world better off when no one is allowed to be wrong?

And under good socialism, we can do it!

Rick म्हणाले...

Inga said...
How about the way Never Trumpers and RINOS have been treated? There is a very real demand for purity on the right, we’ve been witnessing it for quite sometime.


Do rightists crowdsource to identify them and try to get them fired?

As far as I recall the only person who ever threatened to get someone fired for commenting on this blog was Inga who went to far as to publish the person's workplace address and phone number. So it's amusing to see her pretend she opposes cancel culture.

Nichevo म्हणाले...

Drago said...
bbkingfish: "The twisted wreckage that remains in the space where the GOP once stood...."

LOL


The thing I don't get is, why does he lie? I would understand if he had a reason, like it would do some good, but what good does he think it will do? Who is he trying to convince?

Howard म्हणाले...

It ain't cancel culture, it's just culture. Evolution isn't a straight line.

Jamie म्हणाले...

Re: Birkel's claim that the Left believes itself to be moral - to me it seems that they believe their goals are self-evidently moral, and that the morality of their means to those ends doesn't matter. In fact it still seems to me that they absolutely know that those means are frequently immoral - that's why they deny that they're using them.

Voter fraud, for example - according to the Left,they never do it, but the Right absolutely would, all the time, given the chance (and obviously does, whenever a person of the Left loses an election). Yet the Left is the side that pushes for voting schemes that increase the potential for widespread voter fraud. The math seems pretty clear there.

Or shouting down speakers - the Left insists that public criticism from the Right is actually, physically harmful to anyone espousing a Leftist point of view, that it's actually a violent silencing of their voices (rather than an opportunity to argue or cement their point), yet all the shouting-down (literally all of it) emanates from the Left.

Inga is doing it in this very thread: saying that what she believes people on the Right want to do (cancel the impure, a la the "purging" of Never Trump conservatives at some conservative outlets, because of their real and stated opinions that are not in line with the publications' current editorial direction) is worse than what people on the Left are actually, demonstrably doing (cancelling the impure by calling them out publicly for irredeemable but unproven sins like racism, which has the effect of not only ruining their present-day lives but very possibly affecting their future earnings and social opportunities). But she feels justified because she believes that the goals of her side are un-questionably correct, and the moral rightness of her means doesn't matter.

This is not to say we on the Right shouldn't be careful of being tempted to impose purity tests. It is tempting, when you have power. And there is a superficial similarity between anti-Never-Trumper sentiment and cancelling sentiment. But the Right has kept it to jeering and the occasional "We have decided mutually to pursue different directions," where the Left has leapfrogged straight to doxxing, Kafka-trapping, even death threats, because "some ideas should be stigmatized."

Martin म्हणाले...

Watching liberals like Michelle Goldberg try to think, and hearling the craziness they come up with, would be amusing if they were 8 years old--as in the "Kids Say the Darndest Things" segments on the 1950s-1960s Art Linkletter TV shows.

But as they have all the cultural power, and most of the political power, it is scary. These are the people leading us into the abyss.

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

"Blogger mockturtle said...

“People don’t have ideas. Ideas have people.” — Carl Jung"
Thanks for reminding me. Synchronicity "the simultaneous occurrence of events which appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection." 2020 writ large.

Dr Weevil म्हणाले...

The second comment seems to say that AA misspelled Goldberg as 'Goldbert' and corrected it before I saw it. That's almost an anagram for Scott Adams' 'Dogbert'. Freudian slip?

Marc in Eugene म्हणाले...

I'd like to see the first draft! I want to know what had to be taken out to get so many signatures.

Someone should make a Netflix movie.

Jason म्हणाले...

Remember that BloggingHeads you did with that simpering moron, where she was so stupid you told her you were on the verge of hanging up with her?

That was awesome.

RMc म्हणाले...

Free speech is like all of the Good Things in Life: it should only be exercised by the Good People. Allowing Bad People to have the Good Things just ruins them.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Jamie,
I disagree about purity tests. That is exactly the job of voters in a representative democracy. And it is not wrong in the least.

Leftists distort the concept of purity tests.

And it is not wrong for Democratics to demand their elected representatives hold the views that matter to them, e.g. killing babies in black neighborhoods through Planned Parenthood.

Rusty म्हणाले...

The usual suspects, the left, are just fine with freedom of speech. As long as they have the sock with the bike lock in it. They are not moral people.

Stephen St. Onge म्हणाले...


"buwaya said...
"The left, any left, is fundamentally in a state of war against any society or polity or culture within which it exists."

        Exactly.  The purpose of power is power, as Orwell said.

Stephen St. Onge म्हणाले...

"wildswan said...
"Just want to add on that I've read that if you are a member of the Communist party you CAN freely discuss possibilities while the Party is evolving a position as long as thereafter at all times you support the position chosen . . ."


        According to what I've read, this is just a public relations lie.  The vast majority of Party members don't participate in any discussions, and hear about issues only after they have been decided.

Stephen St. Onge म्हणाले...

"bagoh20 said...
"I'd like to hear what is so threatening about the Right's agenda,"

        The ebil rightists might win, and take away the Lefties power.

Stephen St. Onge म्हणाले...

"Inga said...
"It would be great to read a deep dive into the cancel culture on the right. Do rightists deny there is such a phenomenon? How about the way Never Trumpers and RINOS have been treated?"

        There is definitely some of this on the Right, but I have never heard of right-wing twitter mobs trying to get non-politicians fired for #Crimethink.

        As for RINOs and Never Trumpers, that appears to me to be politics as usual.  People whose political positions and acts offend the party's voters will usually be forced out.  After all, aren't the politicians supposed to be responsive to the will of the voters?