[Dan Sheldon] 37, a plant hire company boss, lodged an official complaint over how he and Mandy, 32, were treated at their local office in Chesterfield, Derbys. He said: “We were really excited to go and get him registered but the woman looked at us in utter disgust.... She even told us that it was illegal to name a child that in New Zealand and that maybe we could name him something else but refer to him as Lucifer at home....”Chesterfield is in England.
“We were gobsmacked with her behaviour. Eventually she did it, but it was through gritted teeth. Honestly, we just thought it was a nice name . . . a unique one. We didn’t expect to get so much grief about it.”So the problem here is not that the parents wanted to name their child Lucifer, but that the government official gave them any friction at all. The name was registered, the parents made an official complaint against the government worker, and the county council apologized.
Derbyshire County Council said: “We apologise if they were offended but it is the job of our registrars to advise in these matters as sometimes people are not aware of certain meanings or associations around certain names.”
From the Wikipedia article, "Lucifer":
The motif of a heavenly being striving for the highest seat of heaven only to be cast down to the underworld has its origins in the motions of the planet Venus, known as the morning star. The Sumerian goddess Inanna (Babylonian Ishtar) is associated with the planet Venus.... A similar theme is present in the Babylonian myth of Etana...
The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods ... but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus....In classical mythology, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin) was the name of the planet Venus, though it was often personified as a male figure bearing a torch.... He was often presented in poetry as heralding the dawn....
In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 14, the king of Babylon is condemned in a prophetic vision by the prophet Isaiah and is called הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר (Helel ben Shachar, Hebrew for "shining one, son of the morning")... According to the King James Bible-based Strong's Concordance, the original Hebrew word means "shining one, light-bearer", and the English translation given in the King James text is the Latin name for the planet Venus, "Lucifer", as it was already in the Wycliffe Bible.
However, the translation of הֵילֵל as "Lucifer" has been abandoned in modern English translations of Isaiah 14:12. Present-day translations render הֵילֵל as "morning star"... "daystar"... "shining one"... or "shining star"...
In a modern translation from the original Hebrew, the passage in which the phrase "Lucifer" or "morning star" occurs begins with the statement: "On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labour forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!" After describing the death of the king, the taunt continues"
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'...Isaiah 14:12 became a source for the popular conception of the fallen angel motif seen later in 1 Enoch 86–90 and 2 Enoch 29:3–4. Rabbinical Judaism has rejected any belief in rebel or fallen angels... An association of Isaiah 14:12–18 with a personification of evil, called the devil developed outside of mainstream Rabbinic Judaism in pseudepigrapha and Christian writings, particularly with the apocalypses.
Some Christian writers have applied the name "Lucifer" as used in the Book of Isaiah, and the motif of a heavenly being cast down to the earth, to Satan. Sigve K Tonstad argues that the New Testament War in Heaven theme of Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:7–9), in which the dragon "who is called the devil and Satan … was thrown down to the earth", was derived from the passage about the Babylonian king in Isaiah Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the devil; but writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the devil with the name "Lucifer". Origen was not the first to interpret the Isaiah 14 passage as referring to the devil: he was preceded by at least Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who in his Adversus Marcionem (book 5, chapters 11 and 27) twice presents as spoken by the devil the words of Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High". Though Tertullian was a speaker of the language in which the word "lucifer" was created, "Lucifer" is not among the numerous names and phrases he used to describe the devil. Even at the time of the Latin writer Augustine of Hippo (354–430), a contemporary of the composition of the Vulgate, "Lucifer" had not yet become a common name for the devil.
Some time later, the metaphor of the morning star that Isaiah 14:12 applied to a king of Babylon gave rise to the general use of the Latin word for "morning star", capitalized, as the original name of the devil before his fall from grace, linking Isaiah 14:12 with Luke 10 (Luke 10:18) ("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven") and interpreting the passage in Isaiah as an allegory of Satan's fall from heaven.
As a result, "Lucifer has become a byword for Satan or the devil in the church and in popular literature", as in Dante Alighieri's Inferno, Joost van den Vondel's Lucifer, and John Milton's Paradise Lost. However, unlike the English word, the Latin word was not used exclusively in this way and was applied to others also, including Jesus: the Latin (Vulgate) text of Revelation 22:16 (where English translations refer to Jesus as "the bright morning star") has stella matutina, not lucifer, but the term lucifer is applied to Jesus in the Easter Exultet and in a hymn by Hilary of Poitiers that contains the phrase: "Tu verus mundi lucifer" (You are the true light bringer of the world)....
John Calvin said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians." Martin Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.
६८ टिप्पण्या:
Dr. Bob Hartley's father wanted to name him Lucifer.
"So the problem here is not that the parents wanted to name their child Lucifer, but that the government official gave them any friction at all."
It doesn't seem that's what happened. The council seems to be saying it's part of the clerk's job to provide friction: "...it is the job of our registrars to advise in these matters as sometimes people are not aware of certain meanings or associations around certain names." The council seems only to regret that the citizens are overly sensitive.
When you wish upon a star
Your dreams will take you very far
But when you wish upon a dream
Life ain't always what it seems
What'd you see on a night so clear
In the sky so very dear
You're a shining star
No matter who you are
Shining bright to see
What you could truly be (what you could truly be)
Shining star come in to view
Shine its watchful light on you
Give you strength to carry on
Make your body big and strong
Born a man child of the sun
Saw my work had just begun
Found I had to stand alone
Bless it now I've got my own
So, if you find yourself in need
Why don't you listen to these words of heed
Be a giant grain of sand
Words of wisdom, yes I can
You're a shining star
No matter who you are
Shining bright to see
What you could truly be
If you’re going to allow kids to be named “Jesus” (Hay-zeus) then “Lucifer” has to be acceptable, too.
Just watch out for kids named “Damian.”
They're all named Karen.
Chesterfield is also a style of sofa.
BTW, if you're ever in Liverpool and you want to see genuine righteous indignation, ask somebody what they think of The Sun. Doesn't matter if they're blue or red, they would only line a birdcage with it. It all goes back to the Hillsborough disaster.
And then there is the urban myth about the child named Meconium.
There was also St. Lucifer, Bishop if Caligari.
Calling the Babylonian King Lucifer was a metaphor, poetic, and seemingly ironic, and calling Jesus Lucifer is also metaphorical.
The Biblical Lucifer was the beautiful and extremely talented musical worship leader Angel that thought he should run things and receive the worship that he produced. A third of the Angel Armies agreed. But the God who created had created the perfect rebel Angel cast them out. And to shame them He created a mud being without much talent called Adam whom He made higher than the Angels. Needless to say Lucifer hates and defaces Adam and especially all woman that keep giving birth to more Adamic reminders of the rejection of the glorious Lucifer.
Is his middle name Hitler?
His bigger issue is that kids will call him Luci and he'll have to fight his way through K-9 before it stops.
People are named Lucy, Lucille, Luz, Luciano and similar names that are close to Lucifer, although they probably refer more to the dawn’s early sunlight than to Venus, which is also a person’s name, as is Dawn.
Dan and Mandy of New Zealand know very well all the English-language meanings and associations of "Lucifer." In their deviltry, they sought them for their son, poor soul. Dan didn't even know in which other language the word has its other "nice" meaning. And then they had the gall to complain, which shows what they really are. Poke a finger in everyone else's eye, yes, and now they can carefully watch the reactions of all the people to whom they introduce little Lucifer. Ugh; the registrar was 100% correct, but in a free society I guess they could not actually forbid the "name."
It's good to see biblical names making a comeback
It’s odd when something is over and done with, the person got what they said they wanted, but then they choose to drag it up again in a public scene. It’s almost as if they got exactly what they wanted from the clerk in the first place. Almost as if they were not students of esoteric Greek mythology who were somehow completely innocent of the dominant cultural connotations of the name. Transparent lies to gain attention and sympathy from the public are the worst kind of transparent lies.
In a related bit of news, the father has legally petitioned to have his name changed to 'Asshole'.
I am Laslo.
There is some good news though. Little Lucifer can be born again.
When Lucifer grows up, it would be a nice gesture if he were to look up the county official and thank her for trying.
Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match.
I knew when I checked back on this post, the great commenters here would expand on the biblical interpretations of Lucifer.
Ok so going philosophical/religious for a moment:
I was raised Christian and consider myself a Christian, albeit one who has significant intellectual issues with many widely held church-based dogmas.
The Devil is one that is always the most interesting to me. God is said to be all powerful and all knowing. Ok. So then God created and promotes the devil to influence mankind to sin, got it. God allows Lucifer to exist and conduct his influence and if anything God has chosen to imbue mankind with free will while having a powerful archangel charged with influencing man to sin while God asks man not to sin.
That's basically Christian theology when it comes to the Devil.
Kind of ups the odds of certain behaviors from the kid in the future.
The couple are lying when they say they didn't expect to get grief. The know what Lucifer means, even if they did manage to dig up an obscure positive meaning. The clerk is right--this name will do serious harm to the child and they should rethink. Hopefully, Child Protective Services has opened a file on this loony couple as this probably isn't the last thing they do to ensure their offspring become miserable wards of the state.
Odd that the photos accompanying the article do not include image of mom.Makes me wonder if mom was dressed in a way that would not fit the articles slant.
In one of Malcom Gladwell's books he talks about instant decisions. He brings up the topic of unusual names and how it can hinder. What he also said is it tells aot more about your parents and upbringing than most people realize. What kind of parents name a kid Lucifer, what values do.you think they hold and will impart on the kid?
this shows that GOD is against enlightenment of MAN (eve put a stop to that)
"ask somebody what they think of The Sun"
Sun readers don't care who runs the country....
Three people need to approve of a name: the father, the mother, and the child.
They named their kid after a cigarette match?
The Devil in scripture almost always works through a proxy. In Eden it was the clever talking beast, the serpent. In the book of Job he shows up straight up in the beginning as he and God negotiate how to deal with righteous Job but he quickly disappears and sends proxies one by one to test the man. In the New Testament he grapples with Jesus straight up in Christ’s temptation but when it comes time to crucify him he enters Judas, the traitorous proxy of proxies.
Selah.
That’s the Devil — the ”adversary” — and Satan, another name for this one, doesn’t really like being forced into operating marionettes. He prefers to be Lucifer, the name of his glory days where he brought light to earth. Luther and Calvin may reject interpreting the passage in Isaiah into Lucifer but they’re wrong. It was ostensibly about an earthly king but, as Origen well knew, the Old Testament world is allegory just as all our lives are allegorical to some degree.
Amen.
It would be interesting to see what happens to this kid in 20 years. Maybe he'll live up to his namesake, rebel against his parents, and change his name to Fred.
Tree Joe,
The idea is that following God's laws and loving God are meaningless unless there is the ability not to do these things. It has to be voluntary.
Parents are both selfish and idiots.
Kalli Davis asked...
Is his middle name Hitler?
which raises a Serious Question
would we be hearing anything beside the crickets,
if the parents had wanted to name their child ADOLF HITLER?
[y'all DO know, that when you pick a name for your child, you get to pick 1st and last*]
1st and Last* I PERSONALLY KNOW a stoner chick, that named her daughter: Basil Rain
Basil is now 28 years old, and runs the family ice cream shop; she's super nice
it was illegal to name a child that in New Zealand
New Zealanders seem to think that "Bilbo" is a perfectly fine name, and yet it's illegal in NZ to own a copy of Brenton Tarrant's humorous "manifesto".
Go figger.
When I called the roster for my class on the first day, I often wanted to hand out instructions for how to do a legal name change.
A coked-up David Bowie named his son Zowie back in the '70's. Zowie now goes by the name of Duncan Jones.
well he was the first rebel, the ruler of this world, if you don't believe it just look around, the stones did have that on point,
There was also St. Lucifer, Bishop if Caligari.
Lucifer was banished first to Germanicia, thereafter to Palestine and finally to the Thebais in Egypt. While in exile, he wrote fiery pamphlets to the Emperor in which he proclaimed himself to be ready to suffer martyrdom for his beliefs, and then his twitter account was canceled.
Ok. So then God created and promotes the devil to influence mankind to sin, got it.
God allows Lucifer to exist and conduct his influence and if anything God has chosen to imbue mankind with free will while having a powerful archangel charged with influencing man to sin while God asks man not to sin.
God's not interested in having pets or robots. That's why everybody has the gift of free will. And we're not stripped of our free will in the afterlife. That would defeat the purpose of free will. Satan is free to sin in the same way that Hitler or Mao is free to sin.
I think Beelzebub would be better for a girl.
Once had a friend with a cat that they named Lucy Fur. It was fitting.
At least it wasn’t Apple, Dweezil, or Sage Moonblood. Imagine naming a kid after his mommy’s fragrant menstrual cycle.
And there is always the boy named Sue.
- Krumhorn
Oh, bullshit. They thought it was cute and transgressive. Typical crap that a certain kid of braindead parent likes to lay on their kid, so their friends will all talk about what clever iconoclasts the parents are. The postwar English seem particularly susceptible to this kind of stupidity.
Not much to add except I’m here for these kind of posts and the comments so far have also been interesting.
The Biblical Lucifer was the beautiful ... Angel
Could we say that he was acute angel?
Zowie now goes by the name of Duncan Jones.
Duncan Jones has always been his name; "Jones" was Bowie's legal name, and "Zowie" is the kid's middle name.
These idiots don't even know that the etymology of the name is Latin, not Greek.
So that explains why Obama was referred to as the"Light Bringer".
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...
A coked-up David Bowie named his son Zowie back in the '70's. Zowie now goes by the name of Duncan Jones.
7/22/20, 9:02 AM
Will you stay in our lovers' story?
If you stay you won't be sorry
'Cause we believe in you
Soon you'll grow so take a chance
With a couple of kooks
Hung up on romancing
Will you stay in our lovers' story
If you stay you won't be sorry
'Cause we believe in you
Soon you'll grow so take a chance
With a couple of kooks
Hung up on romancing
We bought a lot of things
To keep you warm and dry
And a funny old crib
On which the paint won't dry
I bought you a pair of shoes
A trumpet you can blow
And a book of rules
On what to say to people
When they pick on you
'Cause if you stay with us
You're gonna be pretty kooky, too
Will you stay in our lovers' story?
If you stay you won't be sorry
'Cause we believe in you
Soon you'll grow so take a chance
With a couple of kooks
Hung up on romancing
And if you ever have to go to school
Remember how they messed up
This old fool
Don't pick fights
With the bullies or the cads
'Cause I'm not much cop
At punching other people's dads
And if the homework brings you down
Then we'll throw it on the fire
And take the car downtown
Will you stay in our lovers' story
If you stay you won't be sorry
'Cause we believe in you
Soon you'll grow so take a chance
With a couple of kooks
Hung up on romancing
Will you stay in our lovers' story
If you stay you won't be sorry
'Cause we believe in you
Soon you'll grow so take a chance
With a couple of kooks
Hung up on romancing
Sounds like minor flunktionaries are alike the world over-- tiny-brained wipers of other people's bottoms.
The parents are lucky to have the State (and all the critics here) to 'splain reality to them.
How many of the critics would object to Jesus or Mohamed?
Lucifer is a fine name; so is Prometheus. Fine names for fine models--the questioner, the shedder-of-light, the illuminator.
Narr
We almost named our son Sebastian Melchior but chickened out
Makes me wonder what the bitchclerk's name is. And what she looks like.
Narr
Strike New Zealand from the list of free countries
Tom Ellis has made the name Lucifer sexy and appealing.
Didn't the Left refer admiringly to Barack as "the Light-Bringer"?
Makes perfect sense, now that I think of it.
They should have given the kid a more traditional, non-confrontational name that inspires hope and peace. Like "Mohammed." -CP
Mary Beth (the commenter) said...
Tom Ellis has made the name Lucifer sexy and appealing.
I was about to mention that. . . . . .
Lucifer is just one of many names.
name him 'Prince'!
...Prince O. Darkness
In happier times, this would truly have been transgressive. Today, I don't think there's enough of a shared cultural framework for it to be more than an oddity. Father will joke, "Yes, he's a real little devil," and get back a nod and a remark about kids being a handful. "Get it?" he'll add, "the devil," and will be met with a blank stare. Should have named the kid Maga Trump. That would stir up some real outrage.
"Lucifer the Lightbearer" was a late nineteenth century atheistic meme.
On August 24, 1883, Harman changed the name of the publication to Lucifer, the Light Bearer. ... The name of the paper ... changed to The American Journal of Eugenics in 1906
Picture here of the two mastheads -
http://endoftheage.blogspot.com/2015_02_08_archive.html
Lucifer replaced by Eugenics
And I intended to make the point that: there's thousands upon thousands of examples like that. Why would you associate a child with all that? But instead I began to read in the magazine. And here is story published there:
"Beautiful, refined, pure and sensitive Josephine was a sales-woman in a large and fashionable store in a great city.
...
Josephine was ever so good, and all who saw her soon became aware of her innate goodness and adornments of mind. She was the favorite sales-woman in the mammoth store, and all who could made it a point to be waited upon by the attractive and pleasing Josephine. But while brushing her long and splendid hair she suddenly felt a peculiar movement within her body. And another in a minute or two. Her dreadful suspicions were now confirmed—she was to become a mother. Then a mental whirl came on—the blackness of darkness fell round about, and gloom settled like a pall upon her lovely face. So intense was her mental misery that her hair fell dry and lifeless; the electrical aura around healthy hair on a happy head, vanished. Her lips were touched with pallor, as well as the cheeks.
...
Then Josephine poured out her woe [to her friend Florence]. "I have no friends, money, or place to go. I could not be in the store and care for a child; nor could I pay a nurse to take charge of the little stranger.” "Ask the father to support you both,” said Florence. This called forth a flood of tears, and between the agonizing outbursts, Josephine managed to say: "I do not know the child's father.” Then Florence was aroused to a sense of horror of what goes on in huge cities, and of late in small towns, and later still in the country—even in simple rural districts. The appalling word "hypnotism” flashed into her mind in an instant. [continued below]
[Story of Josephine continued from above]
"I do not know where he [the father] lives or whether he has a home.” [said Josephine] “Were you ever in an auto with him?” asked Florence. “Yes, three times—twice in the park and once in the country’” answered the trembling Josephine. “Have you no letter, writing or paper from him?” Josephine said: “No letter or writing, but I found this in the auto.” She here gave a circular from a “College of Hypnotism,” which must have dropped from his side pocket.
* * *
Dear reader, as I write, there is on my desk an elaborate series of advertisements, circulars and instructions how to join a “College of Hypnotism” and become a student. They will teach you “how to gain control of others,” “how to influence persons,” “how to make them do what you want,” “how to captivate,” “how to shape their wills,” “how to influence them to surrender,” closing with the serpent instruction, “how to protect yourself.” These are sent by the hun dred thousand and reach every postoffice. Florence read them aloud to Josephine, explained every word to the pure, confiding girl and told her she had been in the hideous clutches of a hypnotist. Josephine was wild with unheard-of excite ment, and boiled with indignation. She stormed against the world, the seething hell she found herself in, and against humanity.
...
I have no heart to write the details of the dreadful things endured by the good Josephine. Suffice to sav that during the following month the horrible word, “illegitimate,” “illegitimate,” kept ringing in her brain. It drove her to a frenzy of despair—to the brink of insanity. The terror of having her child called illegitimate, in derision, by scornful tongues, goaded her on and on until one day she, with heavy heart, rapped on the door of a professional abortionist, virtually an insane woman. Human speech is impotent to portray the terrific agony of mind and body suffered by the pure and refined Josephine during an entire month.
Then she died.
...
Beware of polished hypnotists, young women. I have seen them plying their accursed arts in crowds and on trains; and one only who has made a study of this awful thing can detect the vipers. The victim selected cannot. Hypnotists, male and female, go from large cities as far as a hundred miles to meet incoming boats and trains. A girl without a will like steel, traveling alone, is in great danger; for girls have a high price in the regular markets now flourishing in every city of Christendom."
http://iapsop.com/archive/materials/american_journal_of_eugenics/american_journal_of_eugenics_v3_n7-8_jan-feb_1910.pdf
I remember when Western Electric was looking for a new name and came up with "Lucent". (with crappy logo to boot)
I knew it was a bad idea because half the people would see "devil". I was right.
A coked-up David Bowie named his son Zowie back in the '70's. Zowie now goes by the name of Duncan Jones.
That seems like a reasonable name when your father's name is David Jones.
Shitavious or Laqueefa...no prob.
Dweezil Zappa.
Cool story, wildswan, but I feel like I missed the punchline. Like I missed the facts you must have to demonstrate your contention that countries all over the world have had their populations distorted by Eugenics. (I paraphrase from memory.)
And the more I think about the officious Brit registrar, the more I would like to know if name-counseling (or name-canceling) is in her job description. If not, she should be disciplined and in a well-run organization (I know, it's the gummint . . . the British gummint, but still) she would be subjected to sensitivity training.
Narr
Yes, I'm THAT sadistic
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