"... the other an Anglophone Black one. The children actually supposed that the white girl would grow up to be the Black woman, so deep-seated was their sense of language as marking identity. Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor.... Amid our discussions of racism, sexism and even classism, we don’t spend much time thinking about the ways we can be biased when it comes to how people speak. It is, however, one of the last prejudices permissible in polite society. As Kinzler notes, 'Linguistic bias is part of our basic cultural fabric. It is so ubiquitous that we don’t even think about it. It’s sanctioned by the law, it’s allowed by culture, and it’s practiced so frequently that people do not even realize when it is happening. Linguistic discrimination is seen as normal and typical, and because of this, it flies beneath the radar.'"
From "The Biases We Hold Against the Way People Speak" by John McWhorter (NYT) — reviewing the book "HOW YOU SAY IT/Why You Talk the Way You Do" — and What It Says About You" by Katherine D. Kinzler.
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Rutgers University has a plan for that:
Rutgers English Department announces list of "anti-racist initiatives," including deemphasizing traditional grammar
"[Critical grammar] challenges the familiar dogma that writing instruction should limit emphasis on grammar/sentence-level issues so as to not put students from multilingual, non-standard ‘academic' English backgrounds at a disadvantage," the email reads. "Instead, it encourages students to develop a critical awareness of the variety of choices available to them with regard to micro-level issues in order to empower them and equip them to push against biases based on ‘written' accents."
Language is culture.
This seems to make some people upset.
So those stupid fake 'Southern' accents are a microaggression?
My manner of speech, which cannot be discerned in my comments on line, tells you where I'm from. I have experienced bias and prejudice in reactions to my speech, but only since my work has put me in contact with people outside my local region. This reaction is mostly an identification of where I'm from and thereby some assumptions about my personality and behaviors. Nothing bad has ever happened to me has a result.
My brother-in-law married a cunt with whom no one could/would communicate.
Guess what?
I think labeling reactions from kindergarteners as “bias” is misguided, if not actually harmful to them. How hard is it to follow this logic?
1. Kids learn their language.
2. They understand other kids who speak like them.
3. They feel closer affiliation to kids who they understand.
This is normal behavior because people are social animals, mostly, and enjoy communicating with each other.
Now do how people assume a Southern accent means the person is stupid.
Learn how to use the Kings English. A very common refrain, a couple of generations ago. None of this needs a study. Mastery of the language is a key to success. Black commenters that implored their brothers of speak properly, are met with screeches of "Uncle Tom". Blacks to do learn the language, and doe well academically are derided as not being black enough.
Personal story. I'm a member of a club. Meet regularly. One of the men I knew pretty well assumed I worked for the newspaper as an editor. Nope. Sales and service, fertilizer, seed, chemicals. No degree.
Just last week I was doing a field evaluation. Spent 45 minutes with a researcher. Towards the end he asked what branch of agronomy my degree was in, and where did I get my masters. He was a PhD in weed science. Nope, no degree for me. But I did get a great opportunity to pick the brain of Phd for 45 minutes, and learned a thing or two. And he claims the experience was reciprocated.
Want to succeed? Learn the language, and stop dangling you participle, its embarrassing.
Refusing that advice. Its better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think you fool, then open it, and remove all doubt.
A Canadian in Paris talking French is handed a menu in English.
In third grade (early 1970's) I lived in off base military housing in Germany. This meant no fences to keep you hemmed in-you lived on a small American community in a German town.
One day I got lost in town. I had no idea idea what to do-neither talking to strangers nor crying was my thing. Then I spotted a black man walking and figured he must be going to the American area. I followed him and got back to familiar territory.
So my first remembered experience experience of race consciousness was "Black = American"
My second was in 4th-6th grade also in Germany. Our class marched for civil rights (probably MLK's birthday because I remember it being gray and cold.) I asked our teacher why we were marching, and she said for equal treatment of black people. My mental response was the elementary school equivalent of "WTF???"
My liberal sister, who is a teacher, supported teaching Ebonics. "It's their language", she said. Maddening.
THEOLDMAN
Tho I do appreciate "he dindu nuffin"
TRUE:
I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk.
Maybe our race issues would have been better if Barack had sounded more black.
Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor
Race as the deciding factor for what?
kindergartners were shown a clip of a white girl speaking English and then clips of two adults, one a Francophone white woman and the other an Anglophone Black one. The children actually supposed that the white girl would grow up to be the Black woman, so deep-seated was their sense of language as marking identity. Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor
Race as the deciding factor for what race someone is.
Amid our discussions of racism, sexism and even classism, we don’t spend much time thinking about the ways we can be biased when it comes to how people speak.
Maybe, but this example does not show that. All it shows is that somewhere between kindergarten and 4th grade, children lose their magical thinking.
t is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.
Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor.
Fourth graders, on the other hand, had realized that there are Some Things you can change; and other things you can NOT
fixedItForThem!
Hitting. Head. Against. Desk.
You cannot take humanity out of humans.
We are tribal. We have biases. We have cultures. It's all baked into us. We can make improvements, of course, but the only way to remove humanity from humans it totalitarianism.
Fuck totalitarians. Good and hard.
So are all the NY liberals and Hollywood going to apologize to all the Southerners and Appalachians that they have denigrated for years?
Didn't think so.
The children actually supposed that the white girl would grow up to be the Black woman
Those children were pretty stupid, eh?
"In one of Kinzler’s studies"
Here's a ludicrous nyt article by Kinzler, which opens with an obviously phony anecdote, wherein she claims that children learn prejudice from Trump and the "Trump effect".
My public speaking prof, old Bettie Mae Collins, is spinning in her grave--after all her efforts to help me lose the Suthen accent!
That was when I had vague notions of work in radio, but of course in any gathering of academics--especially at a Southern campus full of not-from-around-heres--Suthenspeak is a marker of backwardness at best. I was so good at talkin good that I was often asked where I was from.
My wife's Suthen accent made her a big hit in Manhattan in the early 80s.
Narr
And her looks, of course
I'm in love with Norma Loquendi.
I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk.
I know brilliant white men, most people of any race would think are idiots, just by how they talk.
The issue isn’t race, but culture.
Rutgers English Department announces list of "anti-racist initiatives," including deemphasizing traditional grammar
Working link here
It's yet another example of crazy racist white people wrecking everything that black people aren't good at, or interested in. It's really an awful trend, a rush to the lowest common denominator.
I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk.
And Sam Walton drove around Arkansas in a 25 year old pickup. Conversely, by best friend died financially broke, and was always in a new $50k pickup. As a contractor, he felt he would be perceived as a success, if he looked successful.
If being perceived as an idiot is your thing, its great that you live in the USA. Myself, I meet strangers for a living. Look them in the eye. Speak well, enunciate. Mix up my vocabulary, setting expectations from the initial Hello. But I strive to achieve goals. I'm sure your mumbled mouth genius friend has a goal that is enhanced by presenting himself as an idiot. I find honesty is better for achieving and maintaining long term success. YMMV
You cannot take humanity out of humans.
New Law: Anything which can be attributed to racism will be.
Ironically, this is so not to give others the opportunity to label you racist.
Crack...I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk
Ture.....I also know brilliant white men who other whites immediately think they are uneducated idiots because they are from some rural area with a strong accent. Judged because you have a drawl or sound like a Georgia Cracker.
And the opposite. Because someone "sounds" smart with a fruity Oxford England accent....(on the TV especially), he/she is automatically given deference because ....ooooh...smaaaart sounding. When in actuality...they are just ordinary dunces like most of us when you listen to what they are saying.
Judging a book by it's cover or by the jargon or slang within instead of the actual content.... is to make a huge mistake. Same thing with people.
it flies beneath the radar.
No it doesn't. When in Rome, learn to speak the damn language if you want to succeed. It's obvious.
Status is important to people. Male or female, we go through adult life unconsciously comparing ourselves to those around us to determine our relative status. Used to be that you could tell a lot about someone by the way they dress. A century or more ago, status and class was obvious at a distance, based solely on dress. But now I dress like Bill Gates when we are in PHX, when we go to dinner. Here, in MT, I will substitute boots for loafers. Maybe jeans sometimes too. And both of us dress better than many billionaires whose idea of fashion is a T shirt under their sports coat and jeans instead of slacks. A good part of it is the cost of clothing - most of it is now insanely cheap. When I last practiced law, a semi custom shirt might cost me 15-20 minutes of my billable time. If you shop at Costco or Sam’s club, where decent shirts are less than $20, you could buy 5,000 of them a year for a $100k annual salary. Maybe 3,000 pair of Levi’s. Etc.
What is left then to identify status? Your car? Your house? Mostly you can’t see someone’s house, and a lot of upscale vehicles are rented these days. What is left then is language, both written and esp spoken. And we all use it relentlessly and remorselessly to determine relative status.
it flies beneath the radar.
No it doesn't. When in Rome, learn to speak the damn language if you want to succeed. It's obvious.
Thanks Fernandinande.
Link from Google search works for me but not for thee.
tcrosse said...
I'm in love with Norma Loquendi.
I don't know; She SOUNDS Nice, but she's Not very sophisticated
I'd be embarrassed to take her into fashionable society
@Tim: "Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor
Race as the deciding factor for what race someone is."
Indeed.
Amazing what kids learn by fourth grade.
I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by who they vote for.
TRUE:
I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk.
This observation transcends race but not culture. Would black people be less prone to this observation of any brilliant person who cannot or will not communicate with them in a mutually intelligible manner? Cultures that do not wish to assimilate distinguish themselves by the use of language.
My high school English teacher would beat you over those commas though, Crack. That's how I learned not to drop them in so much. She didn't distinguish on race. All must comply.
A Canadian in Paris talking French is handed a menu in English.
While an American speaking English in Montreal gets a French menu, accompanied by an incomprehensible stream of joual/Quebecois.
There is video of me as a four year old speaking hard New Yawk tawk, which at some point along the way mostly disappeared, although I never consciously tried to speak more Ohian. But I sounded like an idjit for a while after living with a Scouse for a year, so I guess accents and diction are more fluid for some of us. Spending a lot of time abroad interacting with non-native English speakers also intuitively taught me a non-idiomatic, reduced vocabulary and grammatically simplified "standard English" that I can deploy at will.
Marcus said...My liberal sister, who is a teacher, supported teaching Ebonics.
There is plenty of justification for calling ebonics a dialect. But one of the jobs of the school system is to prepare children to function in the adult world they will one-day join. We do them no favours if we leave them ill-equipped to use standard English in professional situations.
While bias is intrinsic, diversity is progressive.
Pants On The Ground
That's how I learned not to drop them in so much. She didn't distinguish on race.
Diversity is a class-based taxonomic system, process, and dogma based on low information attributes and high sociopolitical leverage.
Why do people allow things like Kinzler near their children?
Maybe things that are seen as normal and typical are, in fact, normal and typical. Because some academic thinks long established human behavior is a problem in need of remedy doesn’t mean it is.
Proverbs 22:28–Do not move an ancient boundary stone set up by your forefathers.
Steve Hawking's computer-voiced statements have become a standard of unquestionability, based on their authoritative source. He could readily have a more human-sounding voice synthesizer, but why mess with success?
In Japan my English/Japanese mishmash - Manglish - was a source of humor to my coworkers. Teaching them all to greet me, a Texan, with "Howdy!" was a delightful bit of language subversion. When another Texan visitor showed up one day, the entire office ended up shouting "Howdy, howdy, howdy!" at him while I laughed myself to tears. He was, of course, delighted.
@DBQ
"And the opposite. Because someone "sounds" smart with a fruity Oxford England accent....(on the TV especially), he/she is automatically given deference because ....ooooh...smaaaart sounding."
Exhibit number one is any member (with maybe the exception of the Queen) of the British royal family. Prince Charles, for example, is one of the dumbest people on the planet, yet he says incredibly stupid things in an incredibly cultured way...
iowan2 said...
Your post on the excellence of your speech was riddled with errors. Were you being ironic, or perhaps voice to text betrayed you?
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Crack...I know brilliant black men, most whites would think are idiots, just by how they talk
It's a pity then that the educational system or their environments or their own values failed them by teaching/allowing them to talk like idiots.
FYI this happens to non-blacks too.
True.....I also know brilliant white men who other whites immediately think they are uneducated idiots because they are from some rural area with a strong accent. Judged because you have a drawl or sound like a Georgia Cracker.
Or in PA or VA you can be picked out as a New Yorker and, whether you read as dumb or not, you read as "not from around here" and may or may not be loved for it (as best as I could tell, VA loved it).
And the opposite. Because someone "sounds" smart with a fruity Oxford England accent....(on the TV especially), he/she is automatically given deference because ....ooooh...smaaaart sounding. When in actuality...they are just ordinary dunces like most of us when you listen to what they are saying.
The problem is even more general. The ability to write or speak, beautifully and/or prolifically, is conflated with intelligence, and IMHO this is just not so. Verbal ability is just that and no more.
In other words, lots of morons talk good. And other good-talkers, or good-writers, are the first to fall for it. Like Althouse. Sadly, many non-good-talkers/writers have been indoctrinated to buy it too, and to feel inferior for their lesser parts in the gift of words.
I know brilliant Indians and Chinese who speak English poorly, or with very thick accents that take a lot of getting used to. But only fools would think they are idiots, because they are nontheless very useful.
This whole business about bred-in-the-cradle via language racism is just more excuse-making for America's principal underperforming ethnic group. If there were any truth in it it would manifest more against all those Asians who speak worse English than nearly any American black.
And really, the world is full of multilingual societies, actual different languages. I grew up in one, and Im currently living in another.
"The children actually supposed that the white girl would grow up to be the Black woman, so deep-seated was their sense of language as marking identity. Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor."
What do you suppose he is insinuating, with that bizarre "internalized"? When McWhorter looks at his watch, does he "internalize" that it is two thirty?
"Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor"
Just as they internalize that white kids don't turn black, fourth graders have even been known to internalize that boys don't turn into girls.
Imagine that!
How awful - prejudice in an English-speaking country against people who don't speak proper English. Just terrible. I'm all broken up.
Trump should hire an elocution coach to help him speak like a British Lord. The ever so posh swells in the Northeast and in academia will then regard Trump as a genius.
Will admit to the Professor I did not read the article. But I have been thinking all this time it was sentence structure and the complexity of your sentences that let on how smart you were. Not accent or regional dialect.
But what do I know?
On a related note, why can't we tell whether a Brit or Aussie is black or white by speech alone but sport a good batting average with Americans?
On another related note, why are we so bad at picking out all the British and Australian actors who infest our movies and television. On the series Strike Back, the American is played by an Aussie and the Brit is played by an American. I was surprised when I looked it up.
The Alabama Department of Transportation hosted a public hearing in an area heavily populated with people from Mexico. They enlisted a Spanish speaker from their ranks that also know roadway issues. The ALDOT guys figured he would help with communication AND assure the crowd they were understanding of the local community. After he introduced himself the first comment was, "Hello Columbia".
He never stood a chance.
I met Clarence Thomas when he was head of the EEOC and I was on the San Jose Mercury News editorial board. His speech was so clipped, almost British, that I thought he must come from a West Indian family. I was surprised to learn he grew up in a small town in Georgia (called "Pinpoint," as I recall). He must have worked hard to get rid of his Southern accent.
did you mean like this?
Rickie Lee Jones
Weasel And The White Boys Cool
cubanbob said...
Trump should hire an elocution coach to help him speak like a British Lord. The ever so posh swells in the Northeast and in academia will then regard Trump as a genius.
did you mean like this?
Sophisticated Trump
I recently read that when talking pictures became the thing many silent actors got tossed on the ashpile due to their speech quirks. In an effort to standardize speech patterns, the studios hired linguistics experts and voice coaches to pound the quirks out of their speech. It's the reason why every film made in the 30s and 40s all had white casts who sounded as if they lived in Locust Valley, with very little in the way of differences. Black and other minorities, if they even had lines, didn't seem to be part of that effort.
When I listen to people speaking I play a mental game and try to guess where they grew up based on their accent. It's not as easy here in the Bay Area where there isn't true accent to speak of, as most people have come from elsewhere and lost whatever local flavor they may have had.
HO AXING THIS
>>Now do how people assume a Southern accent means the person is stupid.
There were two students from Alabama in my college dorm, a guy and, for want of a better equivalent, a gal (c'mon, I could have gone with "doll"!). It's at least marginally relevant to the story, so I'll say that the school was, um, near/just outside of Boston, as we are wont to say. His accent was pretty much gone, hers intact. His explanation was that everyone thinks a pretty young thing with a southern accent is charming, but a guy with a southern accent is just stupid. He was smart enough, not just to get into that school as a white guy from Alabama and figure that out, but also to be able to lose the accent (me, I'm a white guy from the South Side of Chicago, I don't have/never have had an accent! Though, on the other side, I have at least once embarrassingly referred to the el in Chicago as the T while I was actually in Chicago (and don't get me started on how "Chicago" is properly pronounced)).
Cf.>>My wife's Suthen accent made her a big hit in Manhattan in the early 80s.
>>A Canadian in Paris talking French is handed a menu in English.
One of the more satisfying aspects of my first trip to France in, I think, 1986. Went to Chez Jenny, a hundred-year-plus-old Alsatian restaurant in Paris with excellent choucroute garnie. After my one year of French at the aforementioned school, it went something like "bon soir, une personne pour diner" and I got seated and handed a menu. A while later, I noticed that there was a young German couple sitting next to me with what was obviously a simplified tourist menu. So, they undoubtedly thought my accent (I'll admit to one in French) was barbaric, but at least I could speak well enough to get a real menu.
Got a couple more me-in-France stories, but I'll pass on them for now.
>>ludicrous NYT article by Kinzler
geez, from the McWhorter review, I was inclined to buy/read the book, but now I'm at best on the fence.
>>I recently read that when talking pictures became the thing many silent actors got tossed on the ashpile due to their speech quirks. In an effort to standardize speech patterns, the studios hired linguistics experts and voice coaches to pound the quirks out of their speech.
A theme in "Singin' in the Rain." Lina Lamont's shrill and nasal "what's the matter wit ta way I tawk!" Another Linaism: "And I cahhhhn't stan him." After being tutored by the ubiquitous Kathleen Freeman (recently I actually sent an email to McWhorter about his use of a clip from KF, but he didn't acknowledge it (and has apologized in his podcast about not being able to respond to everything)).
Unrelated, but my all-time favorite line from the movie: "I make more money than Calvin Coolidge, put together!" Based at least loosely, I think, on a supposed remark by Babe Ruth that he got paid more than Calvin Coolidge because "I had a better year." There's also some source for the "put together," but I'm blanking on it.
--gpm
It’s internalized racism to think people don’t change their race when they grow up? What?
Todd said..."So are all the NY liberals and Hollywood going to apologize to all the Southerners and Appalachians that they have denigrated for years?"
I grew up within sight of the Manhattan skyline. The same folks who denigrate people with Southern and Appalachian accents similarly denigrate people like me whose native accent is that of Tony Soprano. It's about culture, not geography.
I learned pretty quickly as I grew up that dropping the Jersey accent (at least situationally) was necessary for traveling easily in certain circles and not being seen as a novelty, a token, or a side show.
In 1966-67, I heard an Education professor assert that requiring standard English grammar and spelling in schools was nothing but middle class bigotry. I could see his point but also saw that anything different would not be helpful to anyone. Being anti-middle class is also a form of bigotry. The anti-American intelligentsia have been working at this destructive project for a long time.
The children actually supposed that the white girl would grow up to be the Black woman, so deep-seated was their sense of language as marking identity. Fourth graders, on the other hand, had internalized race as the deciding factor.
Wow. What's fascinating and shocking to me is that these children are not biased at all. They literally don't understand race and don't see it. To a child, it's entirely possible that a black girl becomes a white woman, and vice versa. Race is irrelevant to them. They don't care. They are completely innocent.
So it's quite sad that our culture--or our public schools--turns them into racists by fourth grade.
Dang, just realized I posted this on the wrong thread and now it will never get read here since the overnight has started.
But whatever:
Moses supposes his toses are roses but Moses supposes erroneously.
Calv AND Coolidge
You’re welcome.
Everything old is new again. Didn't George Bernard Shaw write "Pygmalion" in 1913 precisely on this very subject? And wasn't the issue of class and language brought to the fore again when "My Fair Lady" became a huge on Broadway in the 1950s? And then a huge hit again as a film in the 1960s? Why are so many of today's fresh new insights things that people have been well aware of for at least a century now?
Yes. I discriminate in hiring based on spoken language. I will never hire a direct report with a Boston accent.
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