१९ जून, २०२०

"Years ago, while working on a story for Rolling Stone about why so few white-collar offenders went to jail..."

"I realized I needed to better understand why the criminal-justice system worked with such monstrous efficiency to put poorer people in prison. What I thought would be a short detour to tackle that question ended up consuming five years, ending in two books about structural inequities in modern policing: The Divide, and I Can’t Breathe, the story of the brutal killing of Eric Garner on Staten Island. There are obvious similarities between the Garner case and that of George Floyd. Both victims were African American men in their forties, grandfathers trying to put troubled pasts behind them. Both were approached over minor offenses.... Both Garner and Floyd died of asphyxia from being sat or knelt upon by police officers with long abuse histories. In both cases, numerous other officers and/or medical personnel refused to stop this clear abuse, or even administer aid long after the suspect had been subdued and stopped breathing.... s I learned through years of talking to brutality victims and police alike, and by following cases like Garner’s through the courts, episodes like the Floyd killing happen thanks to a variety of interlocking bureaucratic and political imperatives. The individual racism of officers (and the structural racism underpinning police departments) is clearly a major part of the picture. But there are more immediately fixable problems at play as well. Here are four troubling logistical reasons these tragedies keep recurring...."

Writes Matt Taibbi in "Why Policing Is Broken/Years of research on brutality cases shows that bad incentives in politics and city bureaucracies are major drivers of police violence" (Rolling Stone). Read the whole thing. The 4 headings are "Time Works Against Victims," "Abuse Records Are Secret," "Juking the Stats," and "‘Law and Order’ Wins Votes."

१०१ टिप्पण्या:

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Americans believe a certain amount of street justice is called for by the police, with the justice system being otherwise too lethargic to bring in order.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

A white guy who's equally threatening would get the same treatment.

Jamie म्हणाले...

I'm going to head over and RTWT in a second, but first:

"The individual racism of officers (and the structural racism underpinning police departments) is clearly a major part of the picture."

Which is why he focuses on four other things? I guess he must subscribe to the idea that racism can't ever be even mitigated to the point that it becomes just one of five factors. If it can't be helped, why even talk about it?

That or... he's in the same trap as all the nice white people: you have to accept white supremacism as a given and a foundation of all else before you can opine on matters of race or ethnicity. Like the "not that there's anything wrong with that" episode - requisite platitude first, then substance.

MikeR म्हणाले...

Taibbi seems to be one of the honest ones, even though of course I disagree with a lot of his takes.

JAORE म्हणाले...

Damn those cities run by Democrats (top to bottom) for decades have certainly become cesspools of racism.

Oh yeah, "... Both Garner and Floyd died of asphyxia..." is not, in the case of Floyd, NOT what the official autopsy says. And, yes,I read it.

MikeR म्हणाले...

As one might expect, the article talks about racism all the time, but the article is really about bad policing. Taibbi carefully chooses cases of bad things happening to black people, but actually they happen to poor people of all colors. He carefully chooses heartless white authorities but actually the authorities in my town of Baltimore are mostly black and just as heartless.
He could have removed the pro forma racism from the article without changing its substance in the slightest.

Lucid-Ideas म्हणाले...

"City Bureaucracies"

Are these the same bureaucracies filled with black nepotism-hires? The same bureaucracies filled with positions led or filled with political patronage?

Say it ain't so.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Both were on their way to choir practice and....

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"Here are four troubling logistical reasons these tragedies keep recurring"

Reason number 1: felons resisting or actually fighting with police.

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

grandfathers trying to put troubled* pasts behind them.

My grandfather also sold black-market cigarettes, took fentanyl and meth and fought with police while trying to put his troubled past of armed home invasion behind him.

It didn't work!

* "Troubled past" should be "troubling past".

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

Floyd died of asphyxia

"The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation." (pg 3)

Wince म्हणाले...

Good comments already. As stated above, a fair critique of police practices, but really doesn't provide support for the "structural racism" narrative beyond disparate impact.

A Monmouth poll in early June showed that 49 percent of white people believe “police officers facing a difficult or dangerous situation” are more likely to use excessive force against African Americans than against whites.

Couldn't that poll result simply reflect a belief, right or wrong, that black suspects present more "difficult or dangerous" situations to police?

An act of contrition by Taibbi for his previous article critiquing the left?

A search for the string "democrat" in the article basically about big-city governance" = 0 results.

MayBee म्हणाले...

If you are a racist and you want to be cruel to black people, being a police officer may appeal to you. That is far from saying police officers are racist and want to be cruel to black people. If you are a teacher and you want to do a crappy job and not get in trouble, you might try to work in an inner city school where nobody is expecting anything of you. You look at Chicago Public Schools and Detroit Public schools, and they have both been hotbeds of corruption at high levels. Because nobody pays attention when the bad schools are served poorly.
The same is true of city bureaucracies. Feel like not doing a great job, or like being on the take? Don't go to a city where they expect good things to happen. Go to a city where the people are already underserved.

So it really sucks to be in a poorly served area in this country, where teachers and cops and government officials who don't want to do a good job are out there in control of parts of your life.

Ray - SoCal म्हणाले...

Interesting article, he had a narrative and stuck to it.

Things not mentioned:

1. Lead
2. Overall crime rates
3. Fatherless households
4. Police unions
5. To many laws (see 3 felony a day)
6. Prosecutional immunity (he did mention police immunity).
7. No mention of judicial immunity
8. Murder trend rate
9. George Soros funded DA’s
10. Militarization of the police

Mike Sylwester म्हणाले...

Both were approached over minor offenses

George Floyd was using counterfeit $20 bills to buy cartons of cigarettes.

Gahrie म्हणाले...

Both victims were African American men in their forties, grandfathers trying to put troubled pasts behind them. Both were approached over minor offenses...

Well which was it? Were they "grandfathers trying to put their troubled pasts behind them? or were they career criminals continuing to commit crimes and resist arrest?

Mattman26 म्हणाले...

Jamie, Taibbi does the "of course it's racism but it's also ___" thing the same way he'll start an article about how the American left has lost it's mind by first taking shots at Trump as a complete buffoon. It's how he keeps his lefty readers from tuning him out completely (or putting his head on a pike).

His article talks about what he describes as a 700 percent increase in incarceration in this country since 1970. I wanted to call bullshit, but I looked and that seems about right. Kind of shocking, right? Of course that has corresponded with a dramatic drop in the rate of murders and other violent crime.

It's that whole "America imprisons large numbers of people despite falling crime numbers" thing. Is the widespread imprisonment something that's going on "despite" the relatively low crime rate, or is it what has caused the low crime rate?

Lewis Wetzel म्हणाले...

Both victims were African American men in their forties, grandfathers trying to put troubled pasts behind them.

I suppose Floyd was just "troubling" the woman whose house he broke into and robbed.
If Floyd was not trying to put his troubled past behind him, how would he have behaved differently?

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

“ Both Garner and Floyd died of asphyxia from being sat or knelt upon by police officers ”

Facts not in evidence. Sure, Crump’s hired pathologist, Baden, opined to that effect with Floyd. But that was I order to set the stage for Crump’s lawsuit against Minneapolis for Floyd’s family. But the official autopsy was careful not make that determination. Floyd had roughly half a typical dosage of fentanyl in his system, had recently survived a bout with COVID-19, and had sickling red blood cells, all of which affect O2 transport. Indeed, one of the typical effects of fentanyl is decreasing the breathing response to a CO2 buildup in the blood. He had enough of that narcotic in his blood that it probably was interfering with his breathing. Very possibly seriously interfering with it.

Notably, there was no bruising whatsoever around Floyd’s neck from the knee to his neck, while there were apparently some blemishes on his face from the gravel that it was pushed into. This would suggest that the pressure being supplied there was probably insufficient to cause asphyxia. The doctors here are welcome to correct me, but the centers of his lungs were apparently pink, suggesting oxygenation, while the edges were not, suggesting, to me, residual effects from COVID-19. There was also apparently an absence of other indicia of asphyxia.

But, hey, the author (Chait) is a well known progressive spin merchant, so might as well stick with the approved narrative.

Mike Sylwester म्हणाले...

Black men are the demographic set that is, by far, most likely to evade or resist arrest. That is why Black men are disproportionately shot by police officers.

See my blog article, Blacks are more likely to be shot by police because they resist arrest.

My article is based on a study of incidents in San Francisco. The study found that Blacks resist arrest about eight times as often as non-Blacks do.

Therefore, it's no wonder that Black men are shot by police officers much more often than non-Blacks are shot.

Blacks are motivated to evade and resist arrest, because they ultimately might be able to avoid convictions by accusing the police officers of being racists for chasing and subduing them.

mikeski म्हणाले...

Both victims were African American men in their forties, grandfathers trying to put troubled pasts behind them.

Grandfathers while in their forties. Huh. I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with anything at all.

Michael K म्हणाले...

One good reason that "white collar" criminals don't go to prison as much is that not many of them commit armed robbery and murder.

As my daughter was finishing the FBI Academy, they had a practice exercise where a white collar suspect is being arrested and suddenly becomes violent. Sort of like the guy in Atlanta. Another member of her class had been kind of intimidating to Kate. She was a translator with a PhD or something. Anyway, Kate was intimidated until that exercise. The PhD type collapsed in a puddle crying. Couldn't handle it. She would be popular in Atlanta.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Floyd had roughly half a typical dosage of fentanyl in his system,

Half the lethal dose.

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

Regardless of my past post, I too am troubled by the disparity in how street crime and white collar crime are handled by our criminal justice system. White collar crime very often harms many more people than does street crime, but seems to rarely be penalized nearly as harshly. The more successful white collar criminals make millions, or even billions, with their crimes, often wiping out the savings of hundreds, if not thousands. In a just world, their punishment would correspond to the cumulative harm that they caused. It very rarely even comes close.

My problem with Chait, is that he is such a left wing tool, that he manages, as is usually the case, into shoehorning whatever is the latest problem prominent in the media into a call for ever more repressive progressive solutions.

dbp म्हणाले...

There are a couple of obvious reasons why white collar criminals don't go to jail: 1. Their crimes are not violent and so there is no pressing need to isolate them from physical contact with society. 2. They have more money than poor people and are able to afford better legal council.

But let't look at the case of Eric Garner. The price of cigarettes in NYC is very high, due to taxes. This creates a low barrier to entry illegal market in single cigarettes, in which trade Mr. Garner employed himself. He was overweight and generally unhealthy to the point that he gave up his job as a city horticulturist. He had been arrested over 30 times.

The police to not create laws, the elected officials who created the laws also direct the police to enforce these laws. You have three players: The career criminal, the police and the politicians--I would say the police are the least responsible of the three for the deadly outcome. Naturally, they get all of the blame.

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

Whoops - I got authors mixed up. This was Matt Taibbi! Not Jonathan Chait. That was Ann’s next blog post today. Sorry.

wendybar म्हणाले...

And both victims were in Democrat cities, where the Democrats in charge did nothing to get rid of the bad police that they kept slapping the wrists of. Get rid of the Police Unions and the Teachers unions and you WILL get better cops and teachers. The Unions protect the bad apples. Place the blame where it belongs.

MayBee म्हणाले...

My article is based on a study of incidents in San Francisco. The study found that Blacks resist arrest about eight times as often as non-Blacks do.

Mike Sylwester- my quibble here would be this is a self-serving statistic. Cops who mishandle arrests also say someone resisted arrest in order to justify what they've done.

For George Floyd- I would really like to see the body camera. Any "resisting" you can see him doing is pretty minor.

Wa St Blogger म्हणाले...

Part 1

I think Taibbi has some nuggets of truth in this article, but it is long and only addresses one side of a multi-faceted problem, and that makes it hard to properly address in a format such as this. He also hamstrung his own efforts by bring up the Ferguson case as part of the list of seemingly similar cases. Since the Ferguson case was clearly NOT a case of abuse, one can then question the veracity of his other claims. If I wanted to take the same 5 year study to test each and every claim made by Taibbi, I could, and then I would know if his analysis and assertions were fair and reasonable, but catching him in one case of hyperbole on one thing I do know means that I should assume bad faith on other assertions and put the onus back on him to justify his other claims.

I know a lot of police. I have worked with them in various capacities over the last 36 years. He is right that many are well meaning. He is right that some are problematic. I feel he is right that Unions protect the bad ones. However, I think he is glossing over the Chauvin case. He has a 19 year career and 20 complaints. I don't know if the ratio is high or low. A perspective would have helped. What kind of complaints? Were any substantiated (I know, if you don't trust that the system will self-police, how can you trust the adjudication of officer misconduct?) He has 2 medals of valor (or some such), how does that rate among other officers with his tenure? Has he received compliments from the public? I have a long history of supervision of tech support personnel, They get both compliments and complaints, usually at a 1:5 ratio. What is the ratio for police, how is Chauvin's record in light of that? To blur the line even more, Taibbi places another officer right next to Chauvin and mentions his seven disciplinary actions. I think this is meant to bias us toward all officers and Chauvin specifically. But a careful reading of this would tell me that Chauvin is NOT a particularly bad cop given that Taibbi did NOT mention disciplinary action. The lack of evidence is evidence of the lack given his highlighting of a different cop and his misdeeds rather than discussing Chauvin's.

Wa St Blogger म्हणाले...

Part II

As I said, I've managed a support team. One thing I have learned is that you get what you measure. He brings up cases of specific departments and their management driven metrics. This is endemic to many organizations that need to report on activity and justify their budgets. It is always difficult to find the correct incentives that will get the results you want. Don't blame the uniforms, though. It comes from the top. (Note: I noticed that he castigated the Republicans specifically for being worse than Democrats by saying "and these guys are even more..." but the worst cases of abuse that he actually highlighted were Democrats. Another slimy way to mislead the reader, and another reason not to trust the rest of the article. There are always competing priorities and limits on resources. As a manager, I once implemented rewards for compliments. In doing so, our department got 2 compliments for every complaint, a 10-fold reversal of the normal ratio, but I did NOT have the tech fish for compliments, there was no "anything less than a 5 is a negative review" kind of crap. We did not poll our customers and ask for feed back. This was all organically driven. Customers would give me their feedback entirely of their own volition, unprompted by push surveys. The incentive worked in that our techs made sure they customer was happy. This way I generated good service in my department, as opposed to a department that might focus on calls cleared per hour. We would get fewer calls completed, so the cost was longer wait times, but the customer was happy when they did get help. This is called Competing priorities. Cops have the same problems.

Finally, let me note the 700 percent prison population since 1970 stat. It looks bad. But there is no other context. Did he compare it to the decrease in violent crime rates since 1970? Of course not. That would water down his point.

Bottom line? I cannot trust this paper. He may have some good nuggets of truth in there, but as a useful analysis of the problem that might lead toward real solutions, it is dreck.

wendybar म्हणाले...

And stop making Police go after people for stupid laws that the Democrats in those cities passed. Who cares if Eric Garner was selling "loosies" (single cigerettes) But there was a law against it. Who wrote it??

Karen of Texas म्हणाले...

Interesting and informative article by Taibbi. Infuriating, horrifying, and disgusting in many areas, too - although I think many who think critically about this topic rightly land on the broken aspects of the entire system itself and not, as is playing out now, the targeting and removal of every individual police officer as if that somehow fixes everything.

I would suggest that Matt needs to be a bit more detailed in the section where he talks about the number of complaints filed against Chauvin, as if that number indicated that it was a given that Chauvin - or any cop with  complaints filed - are  department liabilities.   And no, this is not trying to excuse what transpired with Floyd - but a bit of digging would show that in several of those, Chauvin was not a direct aggressor.

Chauvin was among six officers who opened fire on Wayne Reyes, a stabbing suspect, after a chase that ended when he pointed a sawed-off shotgun at them. Two people died when their car was hit by a vehicle being chased by Chauvin and another officer. Chauvin was placed on leave with other officers after they chased a Native American man seen running with a pistol. Nutter, the officer involved in the fatal 2005 car chase, shot that man, but all involved in the chase, including Chauvin, were put on leave while the incident was investigated.

I think it is worth noting that anyone can file a complaint against an officer, whether or not it’s valid. That complaint can remove a cop who is doing a good job policing an area and disrupting criminal activity from the playing field, placing him on leave or at a desk, during an internal investigation. Do we think criminals will not and do not use this knowledge of how the system works?

And time works against any and all victims of crimes, not just those who are victims of police brutality; the wheels of justice turn slowly for pretty much everyone who suffers an injustice. I think, though, that innocent until proven guilty might be some of what grinds the gears to slow the process - and thank God. What Taibbi details here is horrific and does deserve further scrutiny, but is Matt suggesting that justice can be served up quickly? And I'm sorry, but throwing Ferguson and Wilson and Brown in there with no mention of Holder and the Fed involvement and conclusion? Come on, Tabbi. Quit resurrecting and propagating that false narrative. It only serves to continue to divide. Reality is a bitch, but it needs to slap everybody. Never will, though, because the agenda demands that a false narrative be perpetuated ad infinitum.

And I just scanned through on my way to posting and say Ray-SoCal's list with #1 being Lead. THAT is something that truly needs to be addressed. I suspect most people are clueless what you even mean by pointing that out.

Jamie म्हणाले...

Ok, he lists five causes and bypasses the first, racism, on the grounds that it can't be solved quickly enough and action must be taken now. He says he interviewed lots of people, including hundreds of police officers; but he doesn't suggest any concrete action to take to reform policing, except by implication (stop playing moneyball, basically - he says that the troubles really started to get out of hand when policing started being stats-driven, so the implication is that if it went back to the old, non-stats-driven way, there would be fewer encounters between police and civilians and therefore fewer violent encounters). Besides this, he makes vague philosophical statements, but apparently his research didn't turn up anybody who believed they had the, or an, answer. Basically the article suggests to me that he believes the problem is not so easily solved as current activism would have us believe; there is no "just do it" that will move the needle enough. I think we all know that's true.

We also all know that policing reform, including tamping down the power of police unions to shield bad actors, and doing evidence-based study of training methods and general tactics and their results in the field, are actions that could reduce the body count (already tiny, given the number of police encounters - but we should always want that number to keep going down) and improve safety for both police and suspects.

I saw no evidence provided of police racism on either an individual or a systemic level. There's one statement about white people's believing that police will be more likely to use excessive force against black suspects than white ones - but that's white people's belief, not a statement of fact. Other than that, racism is ignored, neither demonstrated not argued against, though he said it's obviously a major factor. Again, this is because he says it can't be changed fast enough.

The following might be instructive about his use of research and statistics:

"in 2005, Mayor Martin O’Malley oversaw the arrest of one out of every six city residents — 100,000 busts in a city of 640,000 people."

Raise your hand if you think what that stat indicates is that one in every six residents (of Baltimore, as it happens) was arrested... versus that there were 100,000 busts that year, many of which would have been of the same person multiple times. He doesn't clarify - lets it stand as I quoted, so that it implies the first, though the second is considerably more likely, given that even Baltimore was a pretty nice city to walk around in back then.

frenchy म्हणाले...

African American males are 6% of the population, but they are responsible for 50% of all murders in the US. And that's not even getting to all the other street crimes. Yet they remain utterly clueless as to how and why they've come to the attention of the police. Maybe math IS racist.

RichAndSceptical म्हणाले...

Did he mention they both resisted arrest?

Certainly not a reason to kill them, but if they hadn't resisted arrest, they likely wouldn't have been killed.

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

If you are a racist and you want to be cruel to black people, being a police officer may appeal to you.

You seem to have it backwards: if you are cruel and want to be cruel to people...you'll probably pick on whoever is handy.

Similarly, almost all serial murderers, both black and white, murder people of the same race. Racism isn't the motive, cruelty is.

AlbertAnonymous म्हणाले...

Let me guess. Nothing for “don’t resist arrest” ?

Probably are lots of reasons why these tragedies occur. That seems to be one that is always present.

But we can’t talk about that.

D.D. Driver म्हणाले...

"Grandfathers while in their forties. Huh. I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with anything at all."

My grandfather was in his forties when I was born. I guess that makes him trash. How old was your grandfather when you were born?

narciso म्हणाले...

https://newsthud.com/watch-black-georgia-sheriff-says-shooting-of-rayshard-brooks-by-atlanta-police-completely-justified/

Rick म्हणाले...

The top priority of any institution is to protect itself. So it's hardly surprising PDs engage in secrecy and slow walking investigations to do so.

It's generally a good article but Taibbi consistently downplays the impact of unions. For example he mentions unions contributing to record secrecy but lays most of the blame on politicians. Unmentioned is that politicians support record secrecy in exchange for union political support.

He doesn't mention at all that the union protects lousy cops - for example the sheriff who sat outside during the Parkland massacre was just ordered re-hired - which is the primary reason cops feel they are untouchable. He mentions cops brazenness about using excessive force but never tracks back to why they (largely correctly) believe they will suffer no repercussions even from documented abuse.

Taibbi also lands on the wrong emphasis as he touches on politics. He focuses on the financial power of foundations driving mayors to support police even as he admits the funds are financing body cameras and other equipment. Massive financial contributions may get donors a phone call or photo op. But the problem is the Democratic Party Tammany style machine politics which controls most of our large cities. Politicians support structures protecting police from accountability for votes, not for money going to police foundations (unless that money is later contributed to their campaign).

The key reforms we should enact:

1. Eliminate unions and the bureaucratic structures they negotiated.
2. End qualified immunity.
3. De-militarize police.
4. Subject officers to real discipline for lies and negligence.
5. Eliminate managers who support the police theater.

Birkel म्हणाले...

Taibbi is blaming Democratics who run these cities.
Too subtle.

Automatic_Wing म्हणाले...

The study found that Blacks resist arrest about eight times as often as non-Blacks do.

In an interesting coincidence (or is it?), FBI statistics indicate that blacks commit murder about eight times as often as non-blacks do.

Abdul Abulbul Amir म्हणाले...

Passing counterfeit money is a minor offense! Who knew?

William म्हणाले...

Like others have noted, that bit about Floyd being a grandfather who was trying to put a troubled past behind him really jumped out at me. If you can say something this blatantly untrue about a convicted felon who's high and drugs and passing counterfeit money, what else about your analysis is off the mark. It's apparent that the officer in the Floyd case did something wrong, but it's also obvious that Floyd's preceding actions--well, preceding life--had something to do with his untimely end....I think that people who use violence to resist arrest will also use violence to negotiate some other frustrations in their lives and usually against people who are less equipped to deal with violence than police.

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"George Floyd was using counterfeit $20 bills to buy cartons of cigarettes."

I have wondered about that. I had not heard that it was multiple bills. Have a source for that?

William म्हणाले...

White collar crimes deserve white collar punishments. I suppose someone somewhere was harmed by Lori Loughlin's or Martha Stewart's crimes, but I don't think those people suffered post traumatic stress disorders afterwards. Well, maybe Bernie Madoff's victims, but, generally, you can find other punishments that are more suitable to the crime and cheaper to use.

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"What I thought would be a short detour to tackle that question ended up consuming five years ..."

The search for systemic racism is not for the faint of heart.

Michael K म्हणाले...

This is the video I tried to link yesterday.

Why black men get shot during arrests.

n.n म्हणाले...

Suspects are to be treated equally, but sometimes differently when there are comorbidities (e.g. Covid-19), and stressors (e.g. psychoactive drugs) present.

n.n म्हणाले...

Both victims were African American men in their forties, grandfathers trying to put troubled pasts behind them.

A warlock judgment (e.g. trial by press) carried out through em-pathetic appeal.

n.n म्हणाले...

A white guy who's equally threatening would get the same treatment.

In Salt Lake City, a white guy exiting a convenience store, with his hands by his sides, walking at a normal pace, with no evidence that he posed a risk, with no criminal history, was shot and killed by a police officer. The DA argued in a painstaking time-lapse motion presentation that he posed a plausible risk to the officer, to the public? It didn't make the national news. Not PC, I guess. #HandsDownShootBecause

n.n म्हणाले...

re: Floyd et al, was diversity ever established as a motive?

Readering म्हणाले...

I hesitate to make this comment because of the moderation delay, but i can just skim these comments to get a sense of where BLM movement coming from.

Geoff Matthews म्हणाले...

When a white-collar criminal is arrested, he typically doesn't resist arrest.
In the two examples sited, both men resisted arrest. One passively (Floyd flopped to the ground), the other actively (stealing & shooting a Taser at police). I guarantee that if both had gone peacefully with the officers, we wouldn't know who they were.
Floyd may not be alive (Fentanyl has that effect), but whatever.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

Time for me to mansplain to Taibbi. Point number one, only one of two autopsies claimed that Floyd was asphyxiated. The autopsy conducted by the Hennepin County medical examiner claimed to find "no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation." Yes, the official Hennepin County medical examiner had incentive to lie, but Michael Baden, an 85 year old man whose medical degree was earned sixty years ago and who was hired by Floyd's family to conduct a second autopsy, also had a powerful incentive -- to stretch things a bit.

How bad a cop was Derek Chauvin? He received 18 complaints in 19 years on the Minneapolis police force, but no one has investigated whether that is an abnormal number for a street officer in the precincts where he worked. And I'm not going to be bothered to investigate it, either, because I note that only two of the eighteen resulted in reprimands, and in both cases it was for using "demeaning language." One can reasonably presume that the remaining sixteen were for even lesser complaints and/or unsupported by any evidence. We know that he shot two people in previous incidents. In one, he and other officers were called to the scene of multiple stabbings and found themselves confronting a suspect with a shotgun aimed at them. The shotgun-wielding suspect was shot by multiple officers with multiple rounds of ammunition. As an aside, do not ever point a gun at police officers unless you're ready to spend the rest of eternity in whatever level of Hell is reserved for the terminally stupid. Chauvin was also called to the scene of a domestic disturbance and needed to arrest a man who had locked himself in a bathroom. Chauvin broke the door down and saw the man reach for a handgun, following which Chauvin shot the man in the abdomen. Based on what I have been able to find out, I don't think either of those applications of lethal force were unjustified. There was also an incident where Chauvin was pursuing fleeing suspects in a high speed chase, the suspects lost control of their car and three innocent bystanders were killed. As Chauvin was not disciplined following that incident, one can infer that it happened before police departments cut back on high speed pursuits.

And that's it. There is nothing in his record to justify claiming that Derek Chauvin had a "long abuse history." Taibbi is just being your typical lazy liberal, buying into what everybody else is saying without doing his own research.

hombre म्हणाले...

Black crime is the major driver of police violence toward black people. The Rolling Stoner should read Heather McDonald. Any stats to the contrary are cooked.

Taibbi needs to take his schiz meds. One day he’s right on about the lunacy of the media. The next day he’s part of it. Avoiding cancellation?

BTW, Matt, lefty assumptions aside, white collar criminals are generally smarter than street criminals - who are usually poor because they can’t make crime pay. Uncovering and prosecuting WC crime takes a tremendous toll on prosecutorial and investigative resources. Avoiding a prolonged trial is often a factor in sentencing as is the absence of violence. It only seems like rocket science to a journalist. Where do you put the resources, into a three-day trial resulting in the conviction of a multiple armed robber or rapist, or a six-week trial to convict a scam artist who has embezzled $100k?

Automatic_Wing म्हणाले...

have wondered about that. I had not heard that it was multiple bills. Have a source for that?

Well, you're not going to get a carton of cigarettes for under $20. Let alone multiple cartons.

TreeJoe म्हणाले...

Bruce said,

"Facts not in evidence. Sure, Crump’s hired pathologist, Baden, opined to that effect with Floyd. But that was I order to set the stage for Crump’s lawsuit against Minneapolis for Floyd’s family. But the official autopsy was careful not make that determination. Floyd had roughly half a typical dosage of fentanyl in his system, had recently survived a bout with COVID-19, and had sickling red blood cells, all of which affect O2 transport. Indeed, one of the typical effects of fentanyl is decreasing the breathing response to a CO2 buildup in the blood. He had enough of that narcotic in his blood that it probably was interfering with his breathing. Very possibly seriously interfering with it.

Notably, there was no bruising whatsoever around Floyd’s neck from the knee to his neck, while there were apparently some blemishes on his face from the gravel that it was pushed into. This would suggest that the pressure being supplied there was probably insufficient to cause asphyxia. The doctors here are welcome to correct me, but the centers of his lungs were apparently pink, suggesting oxygenation, while the edges were not, suggesting, to me, residual effects from COVID-19. There was also apparently an absence of other indicia of asphyxia."

Kinda beating around the bush Bruce. He had fentanyl in his system, he had had covid-19 though that's 6+ million folks (probably 60+ million in the U.S. at this point) and no reports of being symptomatic at this stage, and had sickling red blood cells. But he was apparently well enough to be driving around and speaking to police and, by claim, to some degree resisting arrest. He was well enough that officers felt they had to handcuff him and put him on the ground and hold him down.

I'm going to dismiss Crump/Baden's B.S. autopsy-by-media results. They claims asphyxia but says he was actually blood flow cut off to brain that caused death. They claim he was strangled to death and needed to breath but their own autopsy says he didn't die by asphyxiation. Bah.

Baden's report was decent and still called it homicide. Apparently if you take someone and put pressure on their neck where they can't relieve it for >8 minutes that can kill you. Maybe you have some underlying conditions? Maybe you are on medication? So what. It doesn't excuse the officers actions - it actually increases the relevance that they had careless disregard that their subject became unconscious and likely died during their handling of him.

In relation to bruising on the neck: You don't need bruising to cut off blood flow when a broad, blunt object is pressed firmly into your neck for a long period of time. He wasn't thrashing about on that video. He was fairly gently succumbing from what I saw.

Put another way: You seem to be suggesting it wasn't homicide. He just happened to die there from a combination of other factors. Come on man.

Michael K म्हणाले...

i can just skim these comments to get a sense of where BLM movement coming from.

You don't have to. You have this running in your brain 24/7.

Confirmation bias doesn't cover it. White Guilt does a better job. Shelby Steele could explain it.

Szoszolo म्हणाले...

The use of neck restraints has been authorized by the Minneapolis PD's manual since 2002. That's 18 years during which community activists could have formed a committee of citizens, preferably of all races, to review the manual and police training and work on fighting excessive use of police force -- not against members of one particular race, but against anyone the police come in contact with. That committee might have noticed Chauvin's record and tried to do something about it. And the police might have pointed out that the solution to the problem doesn't lie entirely with them.

But did that happen? Of course not.

It's time-consuming and difficult to serve your community that way. Anyone who's ever served on a board knows this. It doesn't pay anything and in fact may cut into your income. It definitely cuts into your time to do other things. It's frequently contentious and emotionally exhausting. It requires you to come face to face with people who may have very different experiences and ways of approaching problems.

But grabbing some cardboard and making a sign to put in your window, joining a protest and marching around, stoking your righteous anger (so many opportunities for selfies!), surrounded by people who agree with you? That's easy.

Which is why the hard work somehow just never got done over the past 18 years, in Minneapolis or in any of the other Democrat-controlled cities with high rates of violence.

sunsong म्हणाले...

Thanks for posting this. I still think that *something* has changed this time. Perhaps we've reached a tipping point...but we aren't going to go backward one more time. Racism is being rejected by the majority now.

Michael K म्हणाले...

bdul Abulbul Amir said...
Passing counterfeit money is a minor offense! Who knew?


You can bet your ass that a call about it would be ignored by Minneapolis PD now.

Congratulations.

Paul J म्हणाले...

White collar crimes are property crimes. So they are not seen as culpable as violent crimes directed against people. Duh.

dwshelf म्हणाले...

Not Taibbi's best work.

Several examples of questionable at best premises. Such as Floyd dying of asphyxiation. Including Michael Brown as a victim. Disparaging broken windows without making any negative case.

Taibbi can be a great read. This one was disappointing.

Automatic_Wing म्हणाले...

And stop making Police go after people for stupid laws that the Democrats in those cities passed. Who cares if Eric Garner was selling "loosies" (single cigerettes) But there was a law against it. Who wrote it??

The law is there to prevent cigarette smuggling, as the tax stamps are on the cigarette packs and not on individual cigarettes.

But the larger point is that the reason Eric Garner was selling loosies is because they were illegal. If it were legal to do what he was doing, people would buy their loosies at legitimate stores rather than from some hulking reprobate on the street.

Lloyd W. Robertson म्हणाले...

There is some good to great writing coming out of the latest BLM uprising. Kaus has linked to Coleman Hughes. https://www.city-journal.org/reflections-on-race-riots-and-police#.Xur-kGV8l-E.twitter

There are no good stats to suggest the police are more violent to blacks than anyone else. It's quite likely that blacks do not get treated with the same respect, shown in body language, voice etc., as others, especially if they do not look or act middle class. There are specific reasons why interactions between police and civilians are more difficult, and more prone to abuse, in the U.S. than in other liberal democracies. The police have some of the mentality of the military, but the only enemies they identify are some of their fellow citizens. Population size, widespread gun ownership, a supposedly reliable instinct as to who belongs in a certain neighbourhood, municipalities saving money on hiring and training, etc.

Wa St Blogger म्हणाले...

"Taibbi is just being your typical lazy liberal, buying into what everybody else is saying without doing his own research.

I take exception to the lazy part. He is either willfully putting blinders on or is purposely misleading. They guy writes for a living. Wordsmithing is his trade. His failure to be accurate in his statements is not due to laziness.

MikeR म्हणाले...

Matt Taibbi talking about his earlier piece on the media. https://youtu.be/yq3y8UBguO8?t=980
I like the way he answers this question about "views that are abhorrent".

hombre म्हणाले...

Sunsong: “Racism is being rejected by the majority now.”

Racism has been rejected by the majority for 50 years or more.

Jupiter म्हणाले...

From the 911 call: "Someone [Floyd] comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car. We tell them to give us their phone, put their (inaudible) thing back and everything and he was also drunk and everything and return to give us our cigarettes back and so he can, so he can go home but he doesn't want to do that, and he's sitting on his car cause he is awfully drunk and he's not in control of himself."

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"Put another way: You seem to be suggesting it wasn't homicide. He just happened to die there from a combination of other factors. Come on man."

There is a legal concept of the "eggshell victim". This is the person who is especially vulnerable, say because his skull is "eggshell thin". You slap him on the side of the head, and it kills him. If you try to argue that it would not have killed a "normal" person, the law replies that you must take your victims as they come. However, this assumes that you did something unlawful. Derek Chauvin was not doing anything unlawful, and the fact that the idiot he was trying to arrest died of his various pre-existing problems is not Chauvin's fault.

And BTW, to everyone who is calling this a murder, and boggling their minds about how long Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck (8:46!); Who called the ambulance? How long did the ambulance take to arrive? How should Chauvin have decreased the time needed for the ambulance to arrive?

Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...

"Floyd had roughly half a typical dosage of fentanyl in his system"

100% of the Recommended Daily Allowance, part of this complete breakfast.

Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...

Does Taibbi really not know why violent offenders get more prison time than non-violent offenders? Is he stupid, or just pretending?

Defraud me of $10,000, and I have legal recourse to recover it, and you'll be subject to civil and criminal penalties. Use violence, or the threat of violence, to rob me of a bag of dog shit, and you may end up with some bullets in your center mass, and a bag of dog shit.

bagoh20 म्हणाले...

So right off Taibbi uses a lie to set up his spin. This is what doesn't help. Lies never help, and when you resort to them, I know you aren't even trying to help make things better.


"Reason number 1: felons resisting or actually fighting with police."

Eliminate that one behavior and how much police brutality would be left?

I can't imagine deciding to fight with a cop, let alone a bunch of them heavily armed. A reasonable person capable of living peacefully and honestly among others would not do that. Some might just be stupid, but how stupid do you have to be to make such an obvious mistake. Being wasted on a nearly fatal dose of drugs doesn't help the decision making either.


Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

There’s no doubt structural racism plays a role in these police killings, but if you’re telling me the solution is to eradicate racism from our society then you’re telling me the problem will never be solved. The truth is that 3 percent of police commit 97 percent of egregious abuses, that a statistical analysis will tell you who these officers are, and that a free-and-just society and police unions have a mutual interest in purging them.

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"I can't imagine deciding to fight with a cop, let alone a bunch of them heavily armed."

This is pretty much the point. I have been arrested. When they decide to arrest you, you get arrested. They handcuff you and stick you in the back seat. You don't really need to make any difficult decisions. It's a good time to start thinking about any attorneys you happen to know.

Maybe these black folks need to start including that in this "talk" they all have with their kids. "DO NOT attempt to escape. DO NOT punch the arresting officer. DO NOT grab things from his belt."

Mike Sylwester म्हणाले...

Jupiter at 12:50 PM
Someone [Floyd] comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car. We tell them to give us their phone, put their (inaudible) thing back

The store clerks were supposed to call the Secret Service, not the police.

The police are wrong to respond to stores' complaints about counterfeit money.

So says DanTheMan.

Tomcc म्हणाले...

RaySoCal @ 8:42: 1. Lead
I'm curious about that; can you elaborate? We've eliminated lead in paint for about the last 40-50 years. Leaded gasoline, too. Are you referring to lead leeching into water systems from pipes?

Gahrie म्हणाले...

The truth is that 3.5 percent of the American population commit 54 percent of violent crimes, that a statistical analysis will tell you who these criminals are, and that a free-and-just society and the Black community have a mutual interest in arresting them.

Gahrie म्हणाले...

There are no good stats to suggest the police are more violent to blacks than anyone else.

The stats actually show that White people are killed disproportionally by the police.

NC William म्हणाले...

"The truth is that 3 percent of police commit 97 percent of egregious abuses, that a statistical analysis will tell you who these officers are, and that a free-and-just society and police unions have a mutual interest in purging them."

If this is true Ernest, and since we know the problem is most acute in areas that have been under complete Democrat Party control at multiple levels for several generations, then you would have to concede that Democrats must not really want to address or solve this problem.

PM म्हणाले...

- Why so few white-collar offenders go to jail.
- What are lawyers, Alex.

Gahrie म्हणाले...

You can bet your ass that a call about it would be ignored by Minneapolis PD now.

Even worse. The store has said it wouldn't call the cops for passing fake money anymore.

BUMBLE BEE म्हणाले...

We have heard much about not prosecuting/disciplining "bad cops". Doesn't pass the smell test for me. EVERYTHING is negotiated with regards interacting with a union/management issue. QUID PRO QUO.
Why do these "negotiation meetings" remain secret? Saving the employee's job is the highest order of a union rep's function. Horse trading, sausage making, whatever you call it, all you hear is the settlement arrived at. Both sides "get" something. What is the trade off?

John Cunningham म्हणाले...

@Juoiter-- buying one carton of smokes in GA would have to be at least 55 or 60 bucks. Thus 3 r mre hinky bills.

BUMBLE BEE म्हणाले...

Fighting cops? See Ron White's Tater Salad for the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neUaSTSKFZc

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

If this is true Ernest, then you would have to concede that Democrats must not really want to address or solve this problem.

I live in the bluest of blue America and have been saying exactly this for thirty years. If that’s your idea of a concession, sure.

Progressives say all of society must be transformed before police abuse will stop. Conservatives say there is no such thing as police abuse. Together these beliefs are a conspiracy against a free and just society.

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

What is the trade off?

Until recently the support of police unions was a cornerstone of urban Democratic machine politics. Their support was essential to getting elected, and if they turned against you while you were in office, things would go south fast.

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

In Salt Lake City, a white guy exiting a convenience store, with his hands by his sides, walking at a normal pace, with no evidence that he posed a risk, with no criminal history, was shot and killed by a police officer.

Exactly. When it comes to egregious police abuse there’s no evidence blacks are killed at a higher rate than whites. We should oppose and eradicate it on principle, not because it tickles some tribal instinct.

n.n म्हणाले...

We should oppose and eradicate it on principle, not because it tickles some tribal instinct.

Starting with laws and administration, then procedures and approval, and, finally, training and discretion of law enforcement officers.

n.n म्हणाले...

Conservatives say there is no such thing as police abuse

Conservatives should, on principle, say follow due process, don't jump to conclusions, don't employ em-pathetic appeals, don't share/shift responsibility, discern cause and effect, be consistent.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Eric Garner was NOT "brutally murdered". Why are leftist reporters such fucking liars?

They keep lying about Garner. He was resisting arrest, so one policeman jumped on his back and applied a choke-hold. Garner didn't die until he got in the Ambulance, 30 minutes later. He died of a heart attack because he has Asthma an underlying medical condition which the officers had no way of knowing. The arrest was supervised by an African-American NYPD sergeant, Kizzy Adonis, who did not intercede. She stated in her report "The perpetrator's condition did not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse.

Regrettable death. Cop should have been fired. And was. "Brutally murdered" = a lie. Unless you want to play humpty-dumpty. THe policeman was never convicted of anything.

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

Matt Taibbi has been writing some fairly aggressive anti stories lately but he has not been fired. I think he drew the short straw in the club and is assigned to defuse some of the obvious logical contradictions so the media can claim to be fair. What a job.

Unknown म्हणाले...

Talibi should have kept going with his list of similarities, but stopped before a significant one: both Floyd and Garner violently resisted arrest forcing the police to up the ante.
Had they not, they'd still be alive.

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

Even after the Floyd killing, an Ipsos poll showed 69 percent of Americans said they trust the police, reflecting a dynamic that politicians in both parties have understood for ages. No matter how much more people might understand about the mistreatment of minorities by the system, or how much outrage there might be about brutality incidents in the moment, “law and order” politicians always win votes in the next election. Trump courted these sentiments, declaring in 2016, “I am the law-and-order candidate.”

I'm pretty sure that this constant shitting on the police is not going to diminish those numbers. My biggest concern is that, in a millisecond, a decision can lead to:
1) getting fired
2) criminal charges, and
3) close relatives getting fired.

What possible pension and health care benefits can be sufficient incentive to get out of bed in the morning and show up for the precinct muster? For example, that Atlanta cop in an instant has lost his job, incurred 11 criminal charges, and for good measure, his step mom has been fired. And the other non-shooting cop has 3 criminal charges. All because some drunk guy failed to comply, wrestled for and got control of the cop's taser, turned to shoot the cop's taser at the cop while running away, and the cop shot back.

Ok. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, the whole thing could have been handled differently. If it went against department policy, the cop should be fired. If not against policy, then change the policy. As bad as getting fired is, the criminal charges are devastating. Why would any cop do the job and take that kind of risk under circumstances you can never control. I most certainly wouldn't.

- Krumhorn

Michael K म्हणाले...

Why would any cop do the job and take that kind of risk under circumstances you can never control. I most certainly wouldn't.

They won't. They will quit or go "fetal." Does anyone else read Second City Cop?

Cook County prosecutors Wednesday dropped murder charges against a man who was accused of carrying out one of the deadliest shootings in Chicago in recent years.

Maurice Harris, now 22, was charged in April 2017 with fatally shooting four people at a restaurant in South Shore. He’d been held without bail at the Cook County Jail since his arrest three years ago.

Court records show that the charges against Harris — more than two dozen counts of murder, attempted murder and aggravated discharge of a firearm — were dropped at a hearing Wednesday.
The Slum Times gives his lawyers a platform to spout their bullshit, none of which passes any sort of muster. We happen to know a bunch of the people working this case and it was some damn good investigating.

In the meantime, four murders go unpunished and (no doubt here) this murderer is going to try to sue the City for wrongful arrest.


I grew up in South Shore. It is a hell hole now. Guess why.

Michael K म्हणाले...

All you guys arguing about resisting arrest, why not watch this example? Be sure to watch to the end.

Nichevo म्हणाले...

Regarding this dreadful video of, yes, a black DUI resisting, going for a gun, shooting two cops and driving off...

1) wonder the outcomes, for police and criminal. Terrible!

2) wonder if it fulfilled some kind of Thelma and Louise fantasy, or other fantasy more suited to a black criminal?

3) Tasers do nothing, why even bother?

4) at some point before he produced the gun from the car, they needed to shoot him, or otherwise intervene decisively; at which point "brutality!!!!" comes into play. Meanwhile I heard cries of "gun" before the ending, maybe he'd had one on him and drew that, or tried to get an officer's weapon.

5) Yes, I saw another video of a crazy white guy who shot a (single) cop and roared off. Again the policeman had to try to Lone Ranger it and not preempt. Apparently you can't say "stop or I'll shoot" and then shoot anymore. It's not a black or white thing, it's a DON'T DO THAT thing.

6) with these so clear cases of total threat, seems hard to understand the cases where people do nothing unreasonable/nothing perceptibly wrong/pose no threat whatsoever/could have been subdued and get wasted. Daniel Shafer, Erik Scott. Eleanor Bumpurs, Gidone Busch.

7) did I mention, Tasers apparently do nothing, against some people? That seems like a real problem.

Nichevo म्हणाले...

Shafer//Shaver

Gahrie म्हणाले...

wonder the outcomes, for police and criminal. Terrible!

One of the cops was badly wounded and in a coma for a while. He's slowly recovering now. The criminal was arrested and was sentenced to 53 to 110 years in prison.

Nichevo म्हणाले...

Thanks Gahrie. Dreadful! I asked those questions, of course, because there is no identifying information about the incident in the link. When, where did this happen? Did it even merit a Wikipedia article?

And you say, they took the shooter alive. Probably gave him a cheeseburger if he wanted one. Racism amirite? SMH

DEEBEE म्हणाले...

The percent of police encounters ending in death versus the percent of protests ending in violence, one is mostly broken (piece-ful?) the other mostly peaceful.