From "Teenager arrested in connection to homicides of Madison doctor, husband" (WKOW).
ADDED: From last December: "Suspect in Saturday's fatal shooting recently given deferred prosecution in felony case."
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२११ टिप्पण्या:
211 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»I've never heard of a "deferred prosecution program", but going by the name and context I can already tell I'm not gonna like it.
George Soros smiles.
"Sanford is acquainted with a family member of the victims, a source told 27 News."
Most probable that he is a friend of one of the boys or boyfriend/wannabe to the girl. Money motive looks unlikely. Wonder if mom & dad disapproved of the diverse gentleman. He's a good candidate for another deferral from prosecution, I think.
Please stay on topic here. This is a double murder that happened here in Madison, and the arrested person committed a felony last year and was put in a program that deferred prosecution. This is a serious matter and an important criminal justice issue.
I will delete comments that don't treat this subject with the required respect or that go off topic.
Deferred Prosecution Program - the punk agrees not to be bad anymore in exchange for not being prosecuted. Idiotic on its face. They're like No-Suicide Contracts with suicidal patients in psychiatry...farcical.
If Ozanne had a son...
This is very horrible. Maybe now the liberals in Madison will wake up and put criminals in jail and keep them there.
Memo to liberals: There is still evil in the world. The government needs to protect good citizens from criminals. That's what laws and jails are for.
The alleged killer supposedly killed a Madison physician and her husband. Do not go off topic and bring up some other murders where the people who were murdered were just common blue collar workers, or other non-elitists.
Only posting stories about folks who go on to commit more crimes after being in deferred prosecution makes you more "cruel" than "neutral"
If it truly is a serious & important matter, then please treat it as such. But if you're just wanting to toss more red-meat to your portal-clickers, then keep on keepin' on...
well it didn't work, auto theft to murder is a scale up isn't it, who signed off on that decision,
Deferred Prosecution Program - the punk agrees not to be bad anymore in exchange for not being prosecuted. Idiotic on its face.
You say that as if there has never been any positive results at all from such a program - is that really your beleif or are you using hyperbole while venting?
He was 17 when the deferred prosecution was arrived at as a solution. I wonder what the person(s) who recommended that route to take think now of their decision, and if there was any follow-up to make sure he stayed on a correct path. Or was it "Well, we kept this kid out of jail, we don't have to do anything else"?
How soon will he be released because of corona virus?
two different perpetrators, Hamilton and Sanford,
Most likely he would have qualified for Youthful Offender status in New York:
Youth" means a person charged with a crime alleged to have been
committed when he was at least sixteen years old and less than nineteen
years old or a person charged with being a juvenile offender as defined
in subdivision forty-two of section 1.20 of this chapter.
2. "Eligible youth" means a youth who is eligible to be found a
youthful offender. Every youth is so eligible unless:
(a) the conviction to be replaced by a youthful offender finding is
for (i) a class A-I or class A-II felony, or (ii) an armed felony as
defined in subdivision forty-one of section 1.20, except as provided in
subdivision three, or (iii) rape in the first degree, criminal sexual
act in the first degree, or aggravated sexual abuse, except as provided
in subdivision three, or * * *.
Are there any statistics out there about how successful these programs are? The school policies that keep schools from calling the police when students commit felonies at school are an abysmal failure. The vast majority end up in police custody or dead eventually. See: Trayvon Martin.
ozanne is like Krasner in Philadelphia, or Rollins in boston, what is the point of a prosecutor now,
"Are there any statistics out there about how successful these programs are?"
What would you define as a success? 50% of felons are never arrested again? Or 75% or 25%?
Liberal/Leftist always seem to favor these programs because they dislike punishing people (unless its for being "Right-wing" or full of "hate") for crimes. They consider the crooks "outsiders" just like themselves. Or maybe its because Liberals really crooks at heart. Anyway, we went through all these "soft on crime" approaches in the 60s (and even before) and it didn't work. If by "Work" you mean helping the criminals while not increasing crime.
The names in the two stories are different, Sanford vs Hamilton, and the pictures are of different people.
Are the links right?
I am surprised to see you post about these two cases because from the scant information contained in the linked articles, there is nothing unusual about what happened. Putting non-violent first-time offenders into a diversionary program is completely normal. This is especially true now because the push for such programs has accelerated in recent years. As a life-long prosecutor (Pennsylvania) you could say that I'm pretty law-and-order, but I can't see any particular problem here based on the bare facts. When I began my career in the 1980's, the pre-trial diversionary programs were already common but were usually limited to misdemeanors. That bright-line has been erased for quite some time.
I'm actually impressed that these men had to agree to deferred prosecution of the most serious charges. In Philadelphia, our self-admitted far-left "progressive" DA, Larry Krasner, has a broad policy of slashing charges downward (or just refusing to prosecute at all) with the goal those arrested will have a more benign-looking criminal record.
More detail about these individuals, their crimes, and an examination of the policies involved would be helpful. In particular, it would be good to know what kind of attention was paid to the (almost certain) juvenile criminal histories of these two young men before they were approved for these programs.
This is a double murder that happened here in Madison, and the arrested person committed a felony last year and was put in a program that deferred prosecution.
I wonder if the people implementing these programs think the criminal is going to be scared or embarrassed by his involvement in the criminal justice system, like a normal person would be, rather than learning that nothing much happens to you if you get caught.
Including 19 year olds in this is ridiculous. If 19 is too young to be held FULLY responsible for a felony, then 19 y/o's shouldn't be voting.
>>purplepenquin said...
You say that as if there has never been any positive results at all from such a program - is that really your beleif or are you using hyperbole while venting?<<
There are positive results at the roulette wheel. BFD.
Don't put words in my mouth. My belief is that criminals - of any stripe - should be prosecuted and punished in some degree. Call it a learning experience.
Please stay on topic here.
What is the topic? Madison, Dane County? Deferred prosecution? Felony auto theft? Murder?
You're painting with a broad brush, and then deleting what you don't like with a scalpel.
I wonder if this occurred in the same park where our hostess jogs?
University of Wisconsin-Madison doctor, husband found dead in suspected homicide
The reported recidivism rate for juvenile offenders was 76% within three years, and 84% within five years. What about unreported recidivism? Do We Know The Full Extent of Juvenile Recidivism?
Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior.
I think we (humans) have a strong tendency to forget that many problems don't lend themselves to easy or precise solutions.
Lock up anyone, young or old, who commits a serious but non-violent property crime? We're going to have a ton of people in jail, and perhaps more importantly, a lot of (mostly young) lives that could have gotten turned around from a second chance but will be relegated to the waste pile.
"Defer prosecution" (essentially probation) for, say, a first-time property crime offender? (I don't know if the auto theft was this guy's first.) Then some percentage of the time, you're going to end up with a tragic headline like this one.
Whether you're a law-and-order type or a bleeding-heart type, there really aren't any universally acceptable responses to these things. Such is life.
"You say that as if there has never been any positive results at all from such a program - is that really your beleif or are you using hyperbole while venting?"
I'm with David Begley: "The government needs to protect good citizens from criminals. That's what laws and jails are for."
"The alleged killer supposedly killed a Madison physician and her husband. Do not go off topic and bring up some other murders where the people who were murdered were just common blue collar workers, or other non-elitists."
This reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s when a niece of a Senator was killed in NYC about the same time another well-to-do person was killed in Central park. Time/Newsweek both had cover stories: "Crime out of Control?" - with the networks having the same type stories. Of course, Time/Newsweek hadn't cared about NYC crime when it was just 1,000 NYC black men and working class types getting killed every year.
“Two different peeps, Hamilton and Sanford.”
But they look a lot alike. They also bear a passing resemblance to the DA. Maybe they’re some of former president Hussein’s many bastard sons.
They’ve been reporting that these killings were targeted murders, I wondered how they would know this so early on. I wonder if this guy didn’t have a friendship or relationship with one of the couple’s children, seems like it could be a likelihood.
It scared me to think there was a random killer out there on the trails that so many people and their children in Madison use, especially now in the time of Covid. Also what a devastating loss to the medical community in times like these.
Are there any statistics out there about how successful these programs are?
Teh google on [effectiveness of deferred prosecution] returns a lot of words about "corporate" crimes, and getting them to pay fines and such rather than being criminally prosecuted. Part of that might be that it's difficult and expensive to prosecute white-collar crimes, what with all the fancy lawyers and such.
"Offenders of driving while intoxicated (DWI) who received deferred prosecution and concomitant alcoholism treatment had significantly more postdeferral alcohol-related traffic violations than did a control group of DWI offenders who received normal judicial sanctions."
I would think deferred prosecution would have even less effect on "real" criminals, burglars, rapists and such, who intended to harm other people on purpose, than on people who DWI.
There isn't enough information to judge the judgement of the authorities. I'm working hard to avoid jumping to conclusions, but it isn't easy.
"Are there any statistics out there about how successful these programs are? The school policies that keep schools from calling the police when students commit felonies at school are an abysmal failure. The vast majority end up in police custody or dead eventually. See: Trayvon Martin."
So, you're saying George Zimmerman was guilty of committing felonies while in school, and, had he been incarcerated, he would not have been free to murder Trayvon Martin?
Don't be nasty here. Two people are dead. Three kids are orphans.
The point here - at least to me - is that law needs to put criminals in jail and keep them there. The good people must be protected from the bad people and there are lots of bad people out there.
There's not much information available anywhere. One article says the suspect knows "a family member", another that they have three kids. So a daughter's boyfriend / ex boyfriend and either he or the daughter blames them for impeding their romance?
When I wrote that these "soft on crime" "lets rehabilitate the criminals" approaches have failed before, I was thinking of Carl Chessman. Chessman stole a car when 16, got 1 year in juvenile jail, got put back in jail when he was 17 when he stole another car and robbed a store, then at 20 got put in San Quentin for armed robbery, then escaped from a low security Prison after 3 years, and got arrested at 23 for another armed robbery. He was finally paroled at 27 after spending another 4 years in prison. Once he got out, it was only months before he was arrested for two kidnapping/rapes, and robbing a grocery store at gunpoint.
Chessman was constantly being "rehabilitated" - and getting out of jail/prison after serving only a fraction of his sentence. This nonsense has never worked.
Some people here are laughable. "Please stay on topic" = the Gulags. LOL.
Yes, i know. Keeping your brilliant insights on the virus or trump off this one althouse post is like being in chains. Got it.
But for this deferred prosecution program, would those people be alive? As a juvenile, the car theft would have resulted in a slap on the wrist anyway. He was out on the street either way. He probably was never jailed as a juvenile.
The story does not say how the murder was committed. That is curious.
Sorry about that, Althouse. Will save it for a more appropriate thread.
Nice that Khari left up his Twitter for us...starts with
freedom is not voluntarily given by the oppresser, it must be demanded by the oppressed” - MLKjr
Ironic?
I wonder what kind of car theft the first crime was. If it was joy-riding that's one thing but if it was as part of a gang which arranged for juveniles to steal cars so as to avoid prosecution when caught, then this was a guy on track to murder someone as part of gang life. Then I wonder if he was trying to steal the victims' car which might have been the expensive kind his gang looked for, and the victims came upon him, and saw his face, and he was armed, and shot his way out. Or was this some awful plot against the actual people rather than their car? So we don't know what the two crimes actually were so how can we know whether deferred prosecution was a mistake in light of facts known at the time of the first crime?
Cook, you’re nasty sack of sick, just like Ozanne. I hope you get murdered slowly and park painfully.
The easiest thing to imagine is that it was a star crossed lovers thing. But maybe the suspect hated the family member he was acquainted with. There are other possibilities.
"The good people must be protected from the bad people and there are lots of bad people out there."
It's not always easy to determine who is a "bad person" and who is simply someone who used very bad judgement in an impulsive moment. Does it follow that a minor who steals a car will escalate to murder? Does it follow he will offend again at all? Without knowing the history of this particular young man, I can't say if the deferred prosecution for him could have been known at the time to be a good or bad idea.
Diversion programs are the right answer for good kids who do something stupid, as an aberration. I have no idea if this young man met those qualifications, but given he committed a double homicide, it seems doubtful.
Criminality has a very strong correlation with age. From studies I saw years ago, there's a very sharp drop off around the early 30's.
Look at the homicides for examples of this. It's young men in their teens and 20's killing each other. There aren't a lot of 55 year olds doing drive-bys.
Maybe if the people who made the decisions that led to the double murder had real skin in the game?
I attended my 50th high school reunion in October. Three of my classmates came up to me and expressed their gratitude regarding my father, who was a small town police officer. The three classmates told similar stories: My father caught them in an illegal acts and used his (then allowed) discretion to allow them a second chance without a court appearance or a police record.
In each case my father took the perpetrator to his home and explained what happened to the parents and made it clear what was expected of the kid. Stay straight or go to jail. All three went on to lead productive lives. Two of the classmates completed college. One became a lawyer.
Second chances are sometimes the right thing to do. But my father also knew the perpetrators and their parents. He was in a position to observe those three young men and make sure the parents were informed about their behavior. The parents cared enough to provide support. And my father made sure those three classmates knew he expected better behavior from them and found opportunities to engage with them.
The social justice warriors who advocate for deferred prosecution don't get involved with the perpetrators. The police are told to stay away to avoid "intimidation and harassment". Politically correct social workers follow their guidelines and the young perpetrators play the system. The parent(s) don't care. And innocent people die.
Looks like Khari’s Facebook friends are turning on him too...
My Dodge Caravan was stolen about two years ago.
It was found six weeks later with a broken ignition lock, flat tire, dead battery, scrapes and dents, both front plastic hub caps melted off the rims, and new front brakes showing excessive wear.
For whatever reason, auto theft has become a regular pass time for a certain demographic, as demonstrated here by Mr. Sanford. And from accounts I have read, auto thieves don't just steal one car, they steal dozens of cars, and they beat the hell out of them just for laughs while endangering everyone else with reckless driving.
I think whoever agreed to the Deferred Prosecution should be held accountable for the deaths.
The older I get, the more I think we were wrong to abolish public hangings.
I see.
The article linking the suspect to the deferred prosecution program is from several months ago and refers to a different homicide.
Age distribution of Homicide offenders
See the chart at the bottom of page 382. Put violent young men in jail, and keep them there if you want to reduce the homicide rate.
"It's not always easy to determine who is a "bad person" and who is simply someone who used very bad judgement in an impulsive moment."
It's a fool's errand to try.
Ann Althouse said...
Please stay on topic here. This is a double murder that happened here in Madison, and the arrested person committed a felony last year and was put in a program that deferred prosecution. This is a serious matter and an important criminal justice issue.
I will delete comments that don't treat this subject with the required respect or that go off topic.
Nobody would care if he shot some other black people or poor white people.
This is only a story because he killed someone who probably went to cocktail parties with the other someones.
Doctors and lawyers and journalists would care a lot more about illegal immigration too if doctors and lawyers and journalists were rushing the border.
@Althouse, I read your comment at 10:46, but the article leaves out so much that would be good to know before anyone can comment appropriately.
First, what is the "deferred prosecution program"? How does one qualify?
Second, back when I was a teenager, in the 1960s, juvenile delinquents (JDs) pretty commonly stole cars for joy rides. Some of them graduated to more serious crimes, but for many (no idea if I should write "most") stealing (easy enough to do with a bent coat hanger) and hot-wiring a car back then was the limit of their crimes (maybe a couple DUIs and speeding tickets later in life). That was over fifty years ago, of course, so who knows what is happening today. But if I had to bet I'd put money down on today's teen-aged boys being much like the JDs of my day.
Third, we don't know much about young Khari Sanford's personal history. Is he one of those "rap sheet as long as your arm" types of teenager, with the crimes regularly increasing in severity and violence, or was stealing a car just about the only thing he has done wrong prior to this crime?
Fourth, just about the only thing we know about Khari Sanford is that he was arrested for the crime -- which does not make him guilty, that's for a prosecutor to prove in front of a judge and jury. Also that he "was acquainted with" one of the couple's children. Is there forensic evidence that ties him to the crime?
Too many questions, at this point too few answers.
It is implied in a deferred prosecution program that the offender is a fundamentally good person that just made a bad decision and whose life shouldn't suffer for it. I'd like to see some stats that prove or disprove my opinion that this is just wishful thinking. His crime was a felony, not some minor transgression.
Bob Smith said...
Maybe if the people who made the decisions that led to the double murder had real skin in the game?
That is why this is a story.
Usually leniency programs just keep prison costs down and result in poor people having to deal with more crime.
If you go missing hope you are a 20 something pretty white chick so you get on Fox News.
Skookum John said...
The older I get, the more I think we were wrong to abolish public hangings.
What was eliminated more recently than that was the ability of the police to shoot people while fleeing or resisting arrest. It may be unfair and all but I bet it provided a universal downward pressure on crime.
17 year old steals a car. Assuming no other priors, deferred prosecution seems reasonable. A prosecutor certainly wouldn't assume every car thief (much less a guy passing a phony 50) is a potential murderer. But newspapers gotta be sold, same as ad time on new channels. Dane County DA is lucky the vote's not coming up next week.
Pop Quiz:
What fact was left out of the description of both suspects? and why?
Maybe if the people who made the decisions that led to the double murder had real skin in the game?
Hell it'd be nice if the perpetrator of that double murder had real skin in the game. Wisconsin has no death penalty, so the worst he can get is a sentence to a life not very different from the ones we are leading right now.
I know it's an unforgivable sin to criticize the media, but the two articles have pictures of two different men, with two different names. I presume that both outlets used the same source as they share similar information in their reporting. Hopefully, only one of them is mistaken.
The names in the two stories are different, Sanford vs Hamilton, and the pictures are of different people.
Two different crimes. Althouse was comparing a recent case to a case in December where the accused benefited from the same program.
I observe that this Hamilton cat, the shooter in the other, unrelated crime at the second link, had a mug shot with some facial tattoos. I don't know what the funny cross or the ?branches? mean, but he has two teardrop tattoos by his left eye.
Isn't that in essence a confession (unless stealing criminal "valor," which is frowned upon in those circles) to two murders committed before this one? Wonder if he did those crimes and/or had those tattoos before his last experience with diversion.
The thing is that who can care about this unless you figure out how to not blame Team D, or better yet, how to blame PDT or Rs.
"Also what a devastating loss to the medical community in times like these."
Yeah, there's been some pretty sad emails going out. I didn't know her but my wife did.
Video of the car theft
Hamilton and Sanford aren’t bad, they’re just misunderstood. And oppressitated by Whitey, probably.
Tommy Duncan:
A very interesting story that is impossible today.
My car window was broken and my Orvis briefcase was stolen from it. Nothing in the briefcase but my script, "Frankenstein, Part II." I hope the thief read it and liked it.
$700 loss for DDB. Not happy. These crimes never used to happen in Omaha.
I am reminded of David Horowitz's and Peter Collier's Destructive Generation, which recounts the stories of some radicals of the '60s and '70s. Fay Stender, a radical lawyer who dedicated years to black prisoners such as George Jackson, ended up a cripple after being shot by a black former prisoner who didn't appreciate her efforts.Fay Stender later committed suicide.
Horowitz also wrote about "Ellen_R" (Horowitz didn't spell out her surname), who grew up with him in their red diaper baby neighborhood in Queens. She dedicated her life to radical causes for blacks. "All her life, Ellen had continued to be a missionary to the people she considered to be the most oppressed, such as naming her third child Martin, after Martin Luther King." (page 296). Her "missionary" acts included storing arms for the Black Panthers in her suburban home-which broke up her marriage.
She made a point of living in an integrated neighborhood in Englewood, NJ. Unlike her black neighbors, who locked their doors when the neighborhood became unsafe, she didn't lock her doors. A "troubled" youth killed her. From the book it isn't clear, but it sounded as if one of the youths she mentored in her math teacher job may have done the deed.
Betty van Patter.
Kind of a Willie Horton situation.
Have to multitask. Two different links. Two different crimes. The December story is about the guy who passed a fake $50 and then killed another young black man. No biggie. Today's story is about the fellow who stole the car and then murdered the prominent doctor wife and her beloved soccer coach husband in the park. Big biggie.
Only connection is that both fellows were given deferred prosecution and then went on to kill. Who they killed and why is the big difference.
Teenagers are just the right age to be free of conscience and vicious enough to do this.
I remember the murder of two Dartmouth professors, not long after I spent a year there.
Tulloch and Parker went to the Zantop residence on the morning of January 27, 2001. Posing as students doing research for a school survey, they intended to take the occupants by surprise, threaten them into revealing their PINs, and rob and kill them. Half allowed them inside while Susanne was preparing a dish for a dinner she was hosting that evening at home.
Very little chance of remediation for kids like this.
George Soros has been spending big bucks to get far left libs elected to DA offices. I wonder if the Madison DA was one of his?
Look at the mug shot. He has that "I hate the World" look we have come to know so well. Locking this little POS up for car theft would probably have changed the timing and the victims of his first attempt at murder, but that's about it. He was born to die in prison. "Society" is not going to fix this kind of shit. The best we can hope for from the criminal justice system is that it will lock him up now, after he has proved what he is by doing what he does. If you would rather not become the test medium for some walking genetic mistake, your best bet is to buy a gun. The po-leece are not going to protect your from natural born killers.
All three went on to lead productive lives. Two of the classmates completed college. One became a lawyer.
I thought you wrote that they lived productive lives? Isn’t that counter-indicated by the fact that one became a lawyer?
(Could not resist an opportunity for a lawyer joke!)
Good on your father, Tommy Duncan. My own father was our village’s justice of the peace and performed much the same role. But one teenager ignored the warnings (plural) and finally Dad had enough and sent him off to jail. Whereupon his older brother grabbed a shotgun and attempted to murder my parents. He missed by targeting the wrong windows.
320, that’s not ironic. It shows that Hamilton is another brainless, entitled negro, just like Ozanne.
It's not always easy to determine who is a "bad person" and who is simply someone who used very bad judgement in an impulsive moment.
If you live in New York and your last name is Cook, you’re a bad person. Sometimes it’s easy.
No, Mr. Cook, I'm saying Saint Trayvon of the Sidewalk was caught with a backpack full of burglary tools in school, but because he was part of a protected class, the school didn't call the police He was sent to stay with his father instead where he attempted to murder one of his father's neighbors. Instead of ending up with a juvenile police record, he's dead. But the school's statistics for their students being incarcerated look better than they would have.
After reading both linked articles, I'm confused. How many people did Hamilton allegedly shoot? Three?
The first article says his deferred prosecution was for auto theft, the second one says it was for forgery.
I also noticed the first article from April 3rd uses a photo of a younger Hamilton than the Dec 16th article, which shows Hamilton with some face tattoos. Why?
Why are there Blacks in Madison? Nobody ever grew cotton in Wisconsin. Blacks moved north on a quest for the golden pussy. That’s the only reason, and they were invited, welcomed, and emboldened by Jews.
"It's not always easy to determine who is a "bad person" and who is simply someone who used very bad judgement in an impulsive moment."
What is good, what is Bad? What is life? What is death? Do we really exist? Does crime really exist? What is crime? what is law? Isn't black really white? Can we really judge Hitler or Stalin?
Oh, its all so hard to figure out.
A look at his Facebook account suggests that he was working hard and taking pride in doing well in school. Then he got into anti-cop rhetoric. Good job, libs. Way to sell an ennobling vision to young people!
Carried to a logical extreme, Cook County, Illinois 1 Apr 2020
"
It turns out there’s a more to the story of the 16-year-old boy who prosecutors charged this week with committing three armed robberies with a handgun since Mar. 24. Back in October, prosecutors charged him with a long list of felonies, including two robberies and gun possession. But, the county decided to release him from custody to await trial.
Police arrested the teen Monday afternoon on the 900 block of North Cambridge a few minutes after he allegedly displayed a handgun and robbed a 39-year-old man on the 1300 block of West Chicago. He was carrying a 9-millimeter handgun when police arrested him, officers said. Detectives quickly connected the boy to the armed robberies of 7-Eleven stores in Lincoln Park and Little Italy on Mar. 24. Prosecutors charged him Monday with three felony counts of armed robbery with a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon, and misdemeanor possession of 30 to 100 grams of marijuana.
Now, CWBChicago has confirmed through two sources that the teenager continues to await trial for a host of felony charges that prosecutors filed against him last autumn. Among the felonies he’s been facing since October: robbery of two stores, unlawful possession of a handgun, possession of a stolen motor vehicle, and aggravated fleeing. Authorities decided to released him from custody to await trial. He apparently took full advantage of his second chance to get another gun and commit even more armed robberies.
The "authorit[y]" releasing him back into the community "
http://cwbchicago.com/
The first report has him as 18yo; the second says he's 20.
This guy a killer. He gets harged with forgery, no jail time. Steal a car, no jail time.
Now, for fun, imagine your nice middle class son, nephew, neighbor, some teenager you know passes a fake fifty dollar bill, which appears to be what this guy did, and sometime later steals a car and goes for a joy ride. Because, that is what some teen age boys do.
Would that relative or acquaintance be likely to end up a murderer? Should that nice,intelligent , but mischievous boy go to prison?
Car thieves generally don't end up murdering people.
Oh, and obligitory "I blame the parents"
BTW, one way the liberals always defend their "soft on crime" approach is to make snarky remarks or say stupid shit like "Well, i bet you'd love to draw and quarter them?". Again, the liberal/left dislikes punishing criminals because they sympathize with the criminal. Look at the NY Times. When crime goes up, they oppose it. When crime goes down, they say it isn't needed. Yet, when its a "Hate Crime" suddenly its "hang 'em High". No sympathy there. After all, its not like they robbed a bank or killed someone - they disliked a minority. When it comes to racism, there's all business.
The communists were quite honest about it. Criminals were their allies in the struggle against the Bourgeoisie oppressor. And the first thing the Leftists did in Spain in 1936, and in Russia in 1917, was empty the jails. With the left-wing ideologues it has little to do with being a "bleeding heart".
Poor Khari was oppressed:
Khari Sanford
@SanfordKhari
“freedom is not voluntarily given by the oppresser, it must be demanded by the oppressed” - MLKjr
"I think whoever agreed to the Deferred Prosecution should be held accountable for the deaths."
Expect no one to come forward. It will be passive voice in every story.
You can bet that there will never be a movie made about this. I don't know what makes a murderer stand out from a car thief. Are facial tattoos a tell?
Probably the best example of sympathy for a criminal was Micheal Dukakais. Not only did he let Killers out to work-parole without supervision, he refused to apologize for Willie Horton or any other additional crimes committed by these dangerous felons. To him, helping violent felons was worth a few deaths. Hey, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
I guess state laws differ, but how is it determined whether car theft is a misdemeanor or a felony? Generally, penalties for felonies are stiffer than misdemeanors, right?
I get it. In our current system, a felony record will destroy your life - making it a real b!tch to get into college, find a job, or even an apartment in a non-MadMax neighborhood. So yeah, give a 17 yr old car thief a second chance. This kid blew it, but most don't.
Read Hillbilly Elegy to understand how fragile life is. JD Vance was able to make the trek from Appalachia to the Marines, Ohio State then Yale and eventually Silicon Valley. But with all the dysfunction going on around him during childhood, he came so close so many times to getting busted. And one conviction would have shut the door on him to the Marines and college.
Deferred prosecution is a failure in Madison. I can speak of no where else.
It was started in earnest when Obama talked about the school to prison pipeline and he wanted those little darlings to not have a record when they (ha, ha!) graduated from high school.
Our DA fell in with that philosophy very quickly. I do wonder now whether he was on the receiving end of all those Soros dollars that were funneled to more local candidates (see the DA in San Francisco for the most egregious result of those $).
This young man was given a chance to be good, based on a liberal feel good program and two people who contributed tremendously to their community are now dead.
I will guarantee you though, there will be NO CHANGE to the deferred prosecution program in Madison. These kinds of programs are exactly why the last police Chief left/retired. And if I understand correctly the interim replacement has said he has no desire to apply for the permanent position. Why? Everyone thinks Madison is heaven on earth. It is not. Madison is a mini version of Detroit or Baltimore with fewer murders.
PS: this is a community that will tell stories on TV or write stories for the newspaper without mentioning race because it’s no big deal to them. Though as we all know when you want to protect your family and/or property the more facts you have the better.
We can also speculate that the woman unwisely told the perpetrator to maintain six feet of distance because she was worried about the corona virus while exercising on campus. Instead of simply gesturing and telling her to "move off", the perpetrator decided that he was gonna shut her up for good. Let this be a second warning!
Cookie’s comment at 11:25 is a lie from one end to another. It will come as a rude shock to him and others of his filthy, disgusting, ilk that the law allows one to defend himself with lethal force from grave personal injury or death, even when one is white and one’s assailant is a black teenager.
(1) George Zimmerman, an appropriately trained member of the neighborhood watch in a housing development that had suffered numerous burglaries, sees a young person he doesn’t know standing on someone’s lawn, in the rain, apparently casing a house. That person is Trayvon Martin.
(2) Zimmerman calls the police.
(3) Zimmerman loses sight of Martin and exits his car.
(4) The police dispatcher realizes from the background noise that Zimmerman is out of his car and suggests he return to the relative safety of the vehicle.
(5) Before Zimmerman gets back to his car he is belligerently confronted by Martin, who then attacks him.
(6) Witnesses testify that Martin has knocked Zimmerman to the ground, is sitting on his chest, and beating him about the head (“waling on him,” per the witnesses).
(7) in fear of losing consciousness, Zimmerman fires his gun into Martin. Despite the fact that it is a Kel-Tec PF-9, it fires and a 9 mm round penetrates Martin’s chest.
The police at the time concluded that Zimmerman acted in self defense. When ignorant creatures such as Barack Obama pressured the DA to indict him anyway, the jury agreed that it was an open shut case of self-defense.
Period. End. Of. Story.
You say that as if there has never been any positive results at all from such a program - is that really your beleif or are you using hyperbole while venting?
It's not hyperbole or venting. It's a simple, honest assessment of the program.
That said - the question is whether their is a NET positive from such a program. Sure, there may be one or 2 good examples, but for every one, there will be 10 more who go out and commit more crimes.
And no, I don't have to prove this - I just understand human nature. Something liberals can't seem to do, by their very own advocating for such programs in the first place.
Maybe now the liberals in Madison will wake up and put criminals in jail and keep them there.
Don't hold your breath, David Begley, you'll suffocate.
The only liberals likely to adopt a sane and sound attitude toward criminals justice are the next-of-kin of the slain, and even then the odds of a change of mind are barely 5 in 9.
Post-war American liberalism is cognitive dissonance as a political philosophy.
Eleanor:
To this day I’m convinced that the Martin family lawyer read Tom Wolfe’s “Bonfire of the Vanities” and used it to manipulate the media that Trayvon was a sweet young boy and an honors student.
I'd hope that stealing a $30,000 Car is a felony in every state.
Let's stipulate:
1) Stealing a car is not stealing a pair of jeans or some T-bone steaks or even a TV off the back of a truck. not only is it more valuable, it can seriously screw up a person's life (can't get to work etc). This is why horse thieves were hanged.
2) Juveniles are not typically subject to the same criminal penalties as adults.
Ok. Now. Let's also deal with a few things:
1) Jails are not "overfilling." The US incarceration rate is at a 20 year low. People who think otherwise are literally operating under a talking point that originated a full generation ago.
2) Unless judges and prosecutors are amazing mind readers (and the evidence shows they are not), all of these "restorative justice" type programs will simply let criminals free relatively randomly. Just like a random sampling of "regular" criminals, some will get tired of the "life," some will continue committing similar crimes (sometimes thieves are always just thieves) and some will do more serious crimes.
3) Older people generally commit fewer crimes. Hence prison sentences.
It's hard to figure out, especially with a 17 year old, which way he'll go, but stealing a car already puts him on a more serious path. And here we are.
And I concur with Big Mike regarding George Zimmerman. There isn't a single shred of evidence to back up Cook's assertion that Martin was "murdered". Ignoring the jury that acquitted him, that statement is still true. Cook believes in something that he has no idea happened, and he believes it because it conforms to his world view, not to anything the evidence suggests.
"A look at his Facebook account suggests that he was working hard and taking pride in doing well in school. Then he got into anti-cop rhetoric."
He was turning his life around.
All that shit about "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged" is incorrect. There was a writer for the Nation that got shot in the chest by a couple of punks during an armed robbery. He didn't resist, they just shot him for pure sport. After he survived the dangerous chest surgery, he wrote a column proudly proclaiming that he not only believed in letting crooks go free, he was even more Liberal/left on crime.
Some liberals are willing to "take one for the team". It reminds me of all of the Lefty women who were raped by some famous Lefty Pol but refused to report it, because it would "help the Right".
"Hands up, don't shoot", or simply "hands up", is a slogan and gesture that originated after the August 9, 2014, shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. The slogan implies one has their hands in the air, a common sign of submission, and is therefore not a threat to an approaching police officer. Witness reports from the Brown shooting conflicted as to what Brown was doing with his hands when he was shot, with some claiming he physically charged at the officer while one initially claiming Brown had his hands in the air before recanting his account. Despite the ambiguity of Brown's hand positions during shooting, the slogan was adopted at protests against police nationwide. A United States Department of Justice investigation, under the leadership of African American U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, found the 'hands up' claim inconsistent with the physical and forensic evidence and witness testimony surrounding the Brown shooting.Link
On the night of February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida, United States, George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old African-American high school student. Zimmerman, a 28-year-old man of mixed race,[Note 1] was the neighborhood watch coordinator for his gated community where Martin was visiting his relatives at the time of the shooting.[3][4][5] Zimmerman shot Martin, who was unarmed, during a physical altercation between the two. Zimmerman, injured during the encounter, claimed self-defense in the confrontation.
In a widely reported trial, Zimmerman was charged with murder for Martin's death, but acquitted at trial after claiming self-defense. The incident was reviewed by the Department of Justice for potential civil rights violations, but no additional charges were filed, citing insufficient evidence.Link
"Cook believes in something that he has no idea happened, and he believes it because it conforms to his world view, not to anything the evidence suggests."
Knowing Cookie, I doubt very much that he has allowed himself to learn about the massive body of evidence proving that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense. Here Cookie, let some sadder but wiser lefties school ya;
Revisiting the Trayvon Martin Case | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter
Deferred prosecution is the standard for youthful offenders. If not there would be twice as many students in the criminal universities we call "prisons."
I want to thank you for diverting me today from existential dread toward mere run-of-the-mill dread. At your link I clicked another and learned from the mugshots that Madison is a raging hellhole:
Suspect used fake $50 bill at Downtown restaurant, homicide charges coming for driver who caused fiery fatal crash, Madison man arrested in alleged attack on girlfriend's teen son, Madison man arrested for allegedly choking, pulling knife on man he knew, Auto theft suspect chased, arrested on North Side, Stolen car crashes; police arrest 7 in 3 stolen vehicles, Deerfield man pleads guilty to felony murder for fatal punches to victim, Janesville police dog puts bite on fleeing suspect, Suspect arrested in shooting at Madison-Kipp, Cigarette thieves arrested in Janesville (my personal favorite), 3 arrested on drug, gun charges, Tip led to deputies finding escaped inmates near Mazomanie, Fitchburg man pleads guilty to hit-and-run death in Westport, and ‘Bitcoin Baron' sentenced to 20 months in prison for Madison computer attack (second-runner-up for personal favorite; please don’t racially profile him).
The murder of Tessa Majors occurred near Morningside Park in Morningside Heights, Manhattan, New York, on December 11, 2019. Majors, an eighteen-year-old white student at Barnard College, was reportedly attacked by three black teenagers who intended to rob her. She was then stabbed multiple times, resulting in her death. One of the suspects, a thirteen-year-old, was arrested the following day and charged with felony murder. Two months later, two fourteen-year-old suspects were also charged with her murder.[1][2] The investigation remains ongoing.Link
"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then (I) look around and see someone white and feel relieved."Jesse Jackson, as quoted by Mike Royko
Description:
Under Wisconsin law, Deferred Prosecution Agreement (DPA) and Deferred Acceptance of a Guilty Plea (DAGP) allows a person facing criminal charges to enter into an agreement with the court to fulfill certain conditions in return for reduced charges or dismissal. To be eligible to participate in a deferred prosecution an offender usually has a limited criminal record, accepts responsibility for the offense, and must be willing to participate in the agreement. Participants sign a Deferred Prosecution Agreement (DPA) or a Deferred Acceptance of a Guilty Plea (DAGP) agreement with the District Attorney’s office and agree to complete a set of conditions within a certain time frame. Condition recommendations are made to the District Attorney’s office based on needs and risk assessments. Recommendations are specific to the participant. Examples of DPA/DAGP conditions may be to attend classes, engage in community service work, counseling, AODA treatment, obtain driver’s licenses and insurance, and secure employment. In return for successful completion of the agreement the District Attorney’s office agrees not to precede with criminal prosecution charges or charges are either reduced and/or dismissed.
in Illinois, with their "supervision", and in Iowa with their "deferred judgement"
you (*I*) were (was) given a set period of time, during which you had to
1) Complete the rest of the sentence [fines, public service, court ordered AA meetings)
2) NOT commit ANY other crimes (INCLUDING traffic moving violations)
IF you completed the court ordered period of "supervision" or "deferred judgement" WITHOUT failing EITHER of those two things; your record was swept clean.
if you Failed Either of those things, your sentence would STAY on the books
which, is WHY if you look at gilbar's rap sheet; i've NEVER been convicted of any aggravated misdemeanors in EITHER iowa, or illinois
[i don't know if either of those states did that for felonies, but i assume they did]
I have NO IDEA how wisconsin does things, i was only arrested ONCE there; and i pled quilty
Prosecutorial discretion leaves a big question of division of powers between legislatures and executives. Up to recently, it hadn't occurred to me that an act is illegal only if BOTH branches think it should be, given that executives are usually obligated to faithfully uphold the law. But now it seems that under prosecutorial discretion, if the executive branch (specifically the prosecutor's office) doesn't believe law x should be enforced, it just announces it won't be enforced, legislative branch desires be damned.
Of course, once you allow for unlimited prosecutorial discretion, I don't see what is to stop a prosecutor from saying we won't prosecute white (or African-Americans) or Democrats, or whatever. I don't see who would have standing in court to sue over such a policy.
“I've never heard of a "deferred prosecution program", but going by the name and context I can already tell I'm not gonna like it.”
It is essentially two steps down from probation. Over the years, I have been able to wrangle several of these for my lead foot. It was inevitably a deal that I did with the prosector(-ette, since they were usually young women). The cops would have gotten upset if they just dismissed charges. They had gone to all the trouble of pulling me over, and, yes, at times, I wasn’t properly subservient. I could usually convince her that she didn’t want to waste her time on prosecuting me on such a minor matter, esp when I pointed out that I had Am Jured in Evidence (highest grade in a required LS class). If I remember correctly, between deferred prosecution and probation was deferred conviction. Both deferred prosecution and deferred conviction didn’t show on my driver’s license, so didn’t affect my insurance rates. This was mostly in the five years that I spent in Austin, where the cops were fairly brutal. At that time, you could wipe one traffic ticket a year off of your record by taking a defensive driving class, so I mostly saved the deferred prosecution/conviction gambit for the second offense. Yes, I was a deplorable person, and a disgrace to the legal field, but in my defense, the problem went away when I left Austin.
Experienced prosecutors would tend to opt for deferred conviction, instead of deferred prosecution. Thus, you would be automatically convicted of the first offense, if found guilty of a second one, within a proscribed period of time (usually a year). He knew that he had something I wanted, and could probably beat me in court, if he had to. And prosecutors like that knew that they didn’t have to accept deferred prosecution from me - I would go for the deferred conviction.
I will admit to having had several second chances in my callow youth. The first was when I was caught letting my next door neighbor drive. I was 16 1/4 years and, and he was 15 3/4. The cops got their jollies watching us switch seats after pulling him over. It was apparently the height of their evening, watching us from their squad car. In any case, the judge knew me a bit from having been to our house, but mostly knew my father from having been in front of him numerous times over the years. At the time, I think that he may have been the only county court judge in Jefferson County CO. At the time the 1st District bar was very small, and everyone knew everyone. By the time I joined it, it was much larger, one of the biggest in CO. In any case, the judge dismissed the charges as having been filed under the wrong statute (which he had had the power to amend), while my father was still pushing for at least overnight in jail to teach me a lesson. The night in jail might have done me more good - I didn’t get it until I was maybe 5 years older, and was picked up trying to hitchhike to Chicago. Turns out that there was an outstanding warrant in Breckenridge for a traffic ticket, and I couldn’t bail out until they had ferried it dow to Brighton, 100 miles away, where I was being housed for the night. That is something that every teenaged boy really needs to experience. We have two teenaged grandsons, with driver’s licenses, who would benefit, and another two a couple years behind. I made sure that never happened again. The guys in my cell weren’t that bad, though looking at their offenses, I probably should have been more worried.
In defense of the prosecutors here, everyone should probably have a second chance, as long as no one was harmed the first time the cops napped them. The experience of being arrested, booked, and speeding some time incarcerated, very definitely straightens up a lot of kids. And if it doesn’t, you will know the second time, because it didn’t work the first time.
We can't discriminate against people with facial tattoos, can we?
And the first thing the Leftists did in Spain in 1936, and in Russia in 1917, was empty the jails. With the left-wing ideologues it has little to do with being a "bleeding heart".
See Castro and the "Mariel Boat Lift" Where do you think those liftees came from?
Don't rely on Wikipedia for the truth. Way dopwn near the bottom is this.
Out of the around 125,000 refugees that entered the United States around 16,000 to 20,000 were estimated to be criminals according to a 1985 Sun Sentinel magazine article. In a 1985 report around 350 to 400 Mariel Cubans were reported to inhabit Dade County jails on a typical day.
Fidel emptied his prisons.
17 year old steals a car. Assuming no other priors, deferred prosecution seems reasonable. A prosecutor certainly wouldn't assume every car thief (much less a guy passing a phony 50) is a potential murderer. But newspapers gotta be sold, same as ad time on new channels. Dane County DA is lucky the vote's not coming up next week.
Quaestor said...
Maybe now the liberals in Madison will wake up and put criminals in jail and keep them there.
No chance. Leftists abandon anyone no longer useful to the cause.
Big Mike said...
Cookie’s comment at 11:25 is a lie from one end to another.
The first thing activists teach new acolytes is that truth doesn't matter, it only matters what people believe. He learned it well.
Maybe off topic, but BLACKOUT: TV News (and the Althouse Blog) Is Silent on New Biden Sex Abuse Allegations
Is Tara Reade not to be believed? Unlike Christine Blasey Ford, Reade had filed a contemporaneous complaint, and there were witnesses.
I guess interest, and prosecution, is selective, depending on political party.
Hes like a broke record, btw remember the seth rich case, there was more than meets the eye there.
Big Mike said...
"Cookie’s comment at 11:25 is a lie from one end to another."
Says who?
Something else to consider. We don’t have enough prisons or prosecutors to prosecute and imprison more than a small percentage of those the deal with. Prosecutors engage in triage constantly, mostly through plea deals of one type or another. A felony charge might take them a day or two to try in court, but can be disposed of in five minutes with a plea deal. They have stacks of cases that they are in charge of, and only have the capacity of trying a small percentage, maybe 5% or so of them. Hire 5x, 10x the number of prosecutors (which requires not just their salary, but also support staff, office space, and generous government employee pensions all around).
I think that it was in 1L Criminal Law, but could have been in Evidence, that the prof invited a line prosecutor and a PD to class. They then engaged in mock plea bargaining. He would throw a fact pattern at them, and they would agree on a standard disposition, typically in a minute or two. He would then tweak the facts a bit, and they would come to a new agreement in short order. Sometimes you would have one pushing aggravating or mitigating factors, and the other might budge, or explain why he won’t. It was so fast paced. Boom, boom, boom, and someone was in prison for, say, 27 months.
The thing is, that the prosecutors are not omniscient. Mostly, they have what is in their file. And for first offenders, that often isn’t a lot. I admitted above that I got a second chance at least partially because my father and the judge were in the same, fairly small, legal community. So, he knew my father decently well and had met me several times socially (where I was under heavy scrutiny by my parents not to embarrass them). That covers, maybe, 1% of the population. The other 99% aren’t so lucky. If the prosecutor can afford to prosecute in court maybe 1 out of every 20 cases on his docket, why should he have picked this case, out of the 20, to prosecute in court? Maybe several others are second or third time offenders, asking for probation - again. Maybe another one has killed a doctor and his wife in cold blood. The point is that the prosecutor, using the evidence he had before him, at the time had to pick the one case in twenty that he would take to trial, and plead out the rest. A relatively non violent first offense is probably not going to be high on his priority list.
"'It's not always easy to determine who is a "bad person" and who is simply someone who used very bad judgement in an impulsive moment.'
"It's a fool's errand to try."
No, it's not. But it is something that could possibly be determined to some degree of confidence by those with access to all relevant present and past information about a particular offender/offense. It is certainly foolish for those not in such positions to judge from afar, which is to say, all internet kibitzers.
Prosecutorial discretion leaves a big question of division of powers between legislatures and executives.
To prosecute every single case would require five to ten times the number of prosecutors, judges, and juries. By funding prosecution at current levels, legislatures have spoken about what they want. But we can always argue about how the discretion is dished out.
@gahrie
Thanks for spelling out what I was wrong to think was obvious.
I have no pertinent knowledge. Nor I believe do most of the regulars here.
Freeman Hunt said..."Then he got into anti-cop rhetoric. Good job, libs. Way to sell an ennobling vision to young people!"
He probably went to Malcom Shabazz City High School. What could go wrong with glorifying violence against the "white devils" by young, black men?
Yancey Ward said...""I think whoever agreed to the Deferred Prosecution should be held accountable for the deaths." Expect no one to come forward. It will be passive voice in every story."
Wisconsin court access says the judge in the case was Ellen Berz, elected to the Dane County bench on the strength of her anti-Scott Walker cred: "During the 2011 Capitol demonstrations, I was a union-designated legal observer"
"Deferred prosecution is a failure in Madison. I can speak of no where else.
It was started in earnest when Obama talked about the school to prison pipeline and he wanted those little darlings to not have a record when they (ha, ha!) graduated from high school."
I doubt that "deferred prosecution" refers to the kinds of more recent policies that are mentioned in this comment.
Deferred prosecution is the generic term for a very common, long-standing practice that has been around since at least the 1980's. It's called ARD in Pennsylvania.
It works like this: a first-time offender of a non-violent crime enters into a provisional guilty plea and is placed on some sort of period of probation with any number of requirements, typically for six or twelve months. IF the perp completes the probation with no problems, then his record is expunged and there is no record attached to him in the future, other than the fact that he has had a deferred prosecution. If he messes-up, then his guilty plea goes into full effect and he is sentenced as though he had never had the chance to complete the deferred prosecution.
Typically, a person is not eligible for deferred prosecution more than once.
"I have no pertinent knowledge. Nor I believe do most of the regulars here."
I do!! I know exactly what deferred prosecution is. Am I the only prosecutor who comments on Althouse?
For those who think the deferred prosecution program is good, is it good enough for multiple citizens to die for?
(1) George Zimmerman, an appropriately trained member of the neighborhood watch in a housing development that had suffered numerous burglaries, sees a young person he doesn’t know standing on someone’s lawn, in the rain, apparently casing a house. That person is Trayvon Martin.
(2) Zimmerman calls the police.
(3) Zimmerman loses sight of Martin and exits his car.
(4) The police dispatcher realizes from the background noise that Zimmerman is out of his car and suggests he return to the relative safety of the vehicle.
(5) Before Zimmerman gets back to his car he is belligerently confronted by Martin, who then attacks him.
(6) Witnesses testify that Martin has knocked Zimmerman to the ground, is sitting on his chest, and beating him about the head (“waling on him,” per the witnesses).
(7) in fear of losing consciousness, Zimmerman fires his gun into Martin. Despite the fact that it is a Kel-Tec PF-9, it fires and a 9 mm round penetrates Martin’s chest.
The police at the time concluded that Zimmerman acted in self defense. When ignorant creatures such as Barack Obama pressured the DA to indict him anyway, the jury agreed that it was an open shut case of self-defense.
Period. End. Of. Story.
The end of your story. How do you this is what happened? Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to. How do you not conceive that Martin, who was living in the neigborhood, was frightened that a stranger was pursuing him?
Zimmerman precipitated the entire incident himself.
If the exact same version of the facts as you recount above had the persons reversed--Zimmerman pursued by Martin, with Martin, in the end, shooting Zimmerman to death--I have no doubt you would see Martin as being a murderer of Zimmerman.
"17 year old steals a car. Assuming no other priors, deferred prosecution seems reasonable. A prosecutor certainly wouldn't assume every car thief (much less a guy passing a phony 50) is a potential murderer."
Yeah, how to know a car thief will turn into a criminal.
"Of course, once you allow for unlimited prosecutorial discretion, I don't see what is to stop a prosecutor from saying we won't prosecute white (or African-Americans) or Democrats, or whatever. I don't see who would have standing in court to sue over such a policy."
Agreed. It's getting insane in Philadelphia. The DA is refusing to prosecute so many crimes and also is agreeing to new trial for those people who were put in jail under prior DAs that the Pennsylvania and Federal courts are starting to have to push back. A federal judge has a pending case where one of the most heinous murderers we ever had in Philadelphia (Robert Wharton, demon) is on appeal---and DA Larry Krasner has tried to just agree with the defense that the death penalty imposed years ago be lifted. The judge is having none of it, correctly recognizing that the new DA does not have unlimited power to un-do all prior convictions. The judge has actually ordered the State Attorney general to step in to investigate and to participate in an evidentiary hearing ordered by a higher federal court. The Philadelphia DA was planning on showing up at the hearing and conceding, instead of presenting evidence.
Apparently Judge Berz has a history of bad decisions that have long riled victims advocates.This from 2017:
“Our state constitution says that victims of crime are to be treated with dignity and respect, and we wouldn’t be here today if that were the treatment that crime victims were getting in Judge Berz’s courtroom,” said Tony Gibart, the public policy director at End Domestic Abuse Wisconsin. “This is not one incident or two incidents. This is a pattern of incidents. There have been multiple opportunities to change, to become better educated about these issues.”
And she caught the eye of Madison's OTHER almost-famous blogger, Dave Blaska, years ago: Catch and Release, Madison edition
Good news, though, Dane County Judge Ellen Berz received a 4 rating from criminal defense attorneys"!
Re: Travon Martin
"(6) Witnesses testify that Martin has knocked Zimmerman to the ground, is sitting on his chest, and beating him about the head (“waling on him,” per the witnesses).
(7) in fear of losing consciousness, Zimmerman fires his gun into Martin. Despite the fact that it is a Kel-Tec PF-9, it fires and a 9 mm round penetrates Martin’s chest."
Importantly, Zimmerman has always stated that Martin caught sight of his gun in his waistband and tried to grab it. So Zimmerman had an even stronger reason to shoot Martin beyond the fact that he was being severely beaten about the fact and head by a strong male who had him pinned on the ground.
We don't know much about Khari Sanford so this is an exercise in almost pure speculation about what the "right" way to treat him. The problem for me with deferred prosecution or other diversion programs is, the system is being asked to take a chance about somebody about whom it (usually) knows very little, and is then being asked to take that little knowledge and predict how the miscreant will behave. Nobody knows that, not even the miscreant (who has no doubt talked himself or herself into a sincere belief that he/she will be going super-straight, yessir). And the burden here falls on the system --to justify its decision not to nail the miscreant-- rather than on the miscreant --to disclose in detail who he or she really is, what he or she really intends, whether he or she really can go straight. There is informational asymmetry and it does not favor society.
One way to improve that system would be to have somebody vouch for the miscreant. As in, post a bond. Or agree to do the time if the miscreant breaks the deal. Yes, it's medieval, but there is a deep logic to it. It makes the community put skin into the game. Those who lack sponsors will be weeded out.
I know, it's not realistic. But I am trying to think creatively here.
Bruce Hayden: "...In defense of the prosecutors here, everyone should probably have a second chance, as long as no one was harmed the first time the cops napped them..." I looked at the video of the car crash in which Khari was involved for the stolen car felony. It is pretty violent. And the car they wrecked hasn't even stopped moving before the occupants jump out and run away. No idea if the people in the car they hit, were injured. But the documented absolute lack of any responsibility by Khari and his companions convinces me that he should not have been given this break.
During the early 1980s, I was newly admitted and I volunteered to handle assigned counsel misdemeanor cases. Just about all the cases were settled, and as I recall there were standard pleas for various offenses, tempered by aggravating and mitigating factors. I also secured youthful offender status for eligible defendants, and as I recall, those were pretty much granted just for the asking. But that was a long time ago, and I haven't done any criminal work for many years.
Remember, it is Democratics who are releasing all the criminals onto their own constituents. That is what Democratics vote to support.
Robert Cook - the facts speak for themselves. Conjecture and feelings are not facts of the case.
The fact is, Treyvon Martin, who was NOT a little boy (as the media portrayed him to be) smashed Zimmerman's head against the ground. In what set of circumstances is that OK?
Because Zimmerman was asked not to pursue the neighborhood criminal?
Really?
Show us the special law that says it's OK for Obama's son to smash your head into the ground because you followed him.
Oh THAT law.
Some people have pointed tout that an early felony conviction can really have severe, long-term consequences for a young person. Which I think has a fair amount of truth to it. But implicit in that statement is that the consequences outweigh the crime they committed, which I think is more of an argument against overcharging or over-felonization of crimes.
I get the urge to want to give some leeway to young offenders, because almost everyone can sympathize with being young and stupid and making stupid decisions. But I generally only favor deferral programs, if the offender has demonstrated not only they are very unlikely to re-offend, but also, and perhaps more so, that there is something other than fear of being caught and punished preventing them from wanting to commit another crime. This is why I'm more in favor of deferral for a kid who say vandalized some property, versus a kid who committed shop-lifting just to take something he wanted. While both are crimes, I can more easily see one being scratched up to a kid not getting how what he is doing harms other people that much. Now if the facts of the shoplifting case were changed to the kid doing it as part of a dare, or impress a girl or whatever secondary reason, then I might again favor deferral.
To prosecute every case would mean the citizenry demanding a whole hell of a lot of malum prohibita behavior would be decriminalized.
We should strip the government of a lot of its tools of oppression.
"Importantly, Zimmerman has always stated that Martin caught sight of his gun in his waistband and tried to grab it. So Zimmerman had an even stronger reason to shoot Martin beyond the fact that he was being severely beaten about the fact and head by a strong male who had him pinned on the ground."
"Importantly?" Rather, suspiciously. Zimmerman had every motivation to make claims as to Martin's malevolent intentions. However, Martin was walking home from a convenience store with candy and iced tea, carrying no arms and no "bag of burglary tools." Zimmerman pursued him after being advised by the police not to do so. Martin had every reason to be fearful of who this person was what what he might do. It strikes me that Martin had a valid self-defense motive for his actions, not Zimmerman.
I grew up and lived most of early years in housing projects and low rent neighborhoods. I know a lot of people who lives were irreparably damaged by violent crimes. For the most part, the perps were never identified. I don't think the police put a lot of effort into finding them either.....I suppose some people get unjustly punished, but their numbers are dwarfed by those that never get punished at all or until their fourth or fifth crime. The pc people cluster around cases of racial injustice, but they will leave a case like this strictly alone.....PC has been a blight for centuries. Why have people like Robert Cook never stopped to wonder what's up with collective farming? The Jacobins accused Marie Antoinette of unspeakable crimes against her son. The put that son in a solitary confinement in a stone dungeon where he soon perished. What sort of person does that? Why does no one ever contemplate the toxic elements on political correctness. They get a lot of things wrong.
The end of your story. How do you this is what happened? Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to. How do you not conceive that Martin, who was living in the neigborhood, was frightened that a stranger was pursuing him?
That is a lie. Z was returning to car. TM changed his route in order to confront Z.
This could go on all day without educating Cook, because he does not want TM to be a bad person.
Anyway, latest, a couple of months ago, TM "girlfriend" who testified as to exchanging texts during the incident turned out to be a fake. She could not read the texts she supposedly sent. And, no I will not provide a link, as it would be a waste of my time.
Nationwide, blacks are 14 percent of the population but are involved in almost half of all homicides.
"The fact is, Treyvon Martin, who was NOT a little boy (as the media portrayed him to be) smashed Zimmerman's head against the ground. In what set of circumstances is that OK?"
Um, in circumstances where he fears for his own safety at the hands of a large, unknown man who is pursuing him, in order to protect himself from unknown consequences.
Changed my mind.
Five years after Trayvon Martin’s death, myths and lies about case live on
"Robert Cook - the facts speak for themselves. Conjecture and feelings are not facts of the case."
But the facts--and the characterization of what those
"facts" suggest--are in dispute.
And the fake witness
Central Witness In Trayvon Martin Trial Was Imposter ...
Althouse, with this hitting so close to home maybe you will reconsider your decision to abstain from voting next Tuesday.
As you noted earlier there is a Supreme Court seat on the ballot and the choice is between the very soft on crime Jill Karofsky and the not quite so soft on crime incumbent Daniel Kelly.
Your vote could make a difference.
Sanford posted a picture of himself sporting a handgun. In another post, he wrote, on Facebook, “we gon change this world, cause it’s time to let our diversity and youth shine over all oppressive systems and rebuild our democracy✊🏽😤
He apparently went to school with the daughter and two sons of those he murdered, and he may have been in a relationship of some sort with the daughter. You can almost write the script for what happened next. The police say that the murders were "calculated" and "cold-blooded".
Here is an extensive discussion of this guy:
https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/khari-sanford/
The lefties are pure cancer.
- Krumhorn
Minor point, Zimmerman's weapon was chambered in .380 ACP, not 9mm Parabellum; though the bullets are the same diameter, the 9mm bullets can be longer, heavier, and are usually propelled faster and are more powerful. However, obviously the .380 can be lethal.
Zimmerman precipitated the entire incident himself.
That’s a lie, Cookie, and you’re a liar. I don’t care whether you made up the lie yourself or foolishly believe bullshit because you are a stupid son of a street-walking whore. Doesn’t matter. The jury did not acquit Zimmerman for any reason other than his innocence.
If the exact same version of the facts as you recount above had the persons reversed--Zimmerman pursued by Martin, with Martin, in the end, shooting Zimmerman to death--I have no doubt you would see Martin as being a murderer of Zimmerman.
I have no concern about your doubts and certainties, asshole. Your only grounds for what you wrote is that I am a Republican, coupled with your asinine beliefs that Republicans = bigots. Of course you have to be an ignorant bigot yourself to believe that. And you are, so you do.
Read on Sanford's facebook that he may have been dating the murdered couples daughter?
Will wait to have an opinion until we know the facts.
Robert Cook at 11:25 AM
So, you're saying George Zimmerman was guilty of committing felonies while in school, and, had he been incarcerated, he would not have been free to murder Trayvon Martin?
Superb argument
He probably went to Malcolm Shabazz City High School.
I thought you were joking. You weren't.
But at least it gives me the chance to tell the story of the young reporter who ran into the newsroom and said breathlessly, "Malcolm The Tenth has been assassinated!"
"The end of your story. How do you this is what happened? Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to. How do you not conceive that Martin, who was living in the neigborhood, was frightened that a stranger was pursuing him?"
That's why we have trials. This was a typical self-defense type of case, at least before the media got involved. A jury heard all the evidence and decided to believe Zimmerman's version under all the circumstances. Zimmerman was not walking towards Martin; Martin came around and confronted him, basically jumped him. The eyewitness came out almost immediately afterwards and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman screaming and calling out for help. Neither you nor I was there, but then again, that's what trials are for.
@Owen, can you point to a link. If I had known that Khari Sanford had been involved in a hit and run that included serious property damage and personal injury, I would be less inclined to think that he should be offered a second chance. This is consistent with my comment at 11:50 that the story is missing too much information.
*In Virginia leaving their scene of an accident is a felony even if you flee on foot. Wisconsin law may vary.
Cookie knows that Zimmerman did not murder Trayvon Martin.
He just does not believe that people should be allowed to defend themselves with a gun.
I have no doubt you would see Martin as being a murderer of Zimmerman.
Your lack of doubt demonstrates only your own prejudice.
We don't know much about Khari Sanford
Other than he murdered two people. There is that.
For those who think the deferred prosecution program is good, is it good enough for multiple citizens to die for? }}}
This is a false choice. Deferred prosecution is a diversionary program reserved (if done correctly) for first-time, non-violent offenders. The main difference in how the criminal is treated with DP vs. going through the standard court system comes down to his having a one-time opportunity to avoid a criminal record for this offense. Nothing about that is dangerous per se.
Example: First time DUI arrest, no accident, no prior record. If convicted, you will likely be sentenced to six months or a year probation, pay a fine, undergo alcohol education programs, and lose your driver's license. If the same person is offered a deferred prosecution, they will ADMIT guilt (state will never have to go to trial), get the same length of probation, same fine, same programs etc. The only difference in terms of "taking it easy on them" is that they can wind up in a year with no criminal record, as long as they kept all the terms of their probation. If they don't follow their probation requirements, then they are kicked out of the DP program and go back before a judge to get sentenced, in the same posture as though they had just been found guilty with no DP.
That's why the scant info available on these two men highlighted by Althouse didn't cause me to think there had been an obvious miscarriage of justice here. But I'd like to know if these men were properly evaluated before getting offered DP; were there any juvenile arrests that were discounted, etc.
Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to
Another Cook lie. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman the address of the house the kid was casing. He got out of the car to look at the address.
CTH had a days long thread on this case at the time and I spent a whole weekend reading it all.
Cook is full of shit.
Why was this couple targeted, as the media is reporting? Buying drugs? Failing to refill opioid prescriptions? Not supporting community control of the schools?
It's amazing to me what some people think is safe, and then what they also think is dangerous.
I'm just finishing up my home-made AR-15 rifle today. It's been a lot of fun. I used the cheapest parts I could find, and milled my own lower with a jig I bought. I'm trying to bribe a friend to laser cut my original serial number I want to use:
"je'n regrette rien"
Today I installed the new trigger. I went with the binary trigger. I used my friends last month and it is more fun than a buttstock. I had to have one. I made mine look like the Viet Nam M-16. Black Mattel.
I can empty a 30 round magazine faster than I can say "run [expletive deleted]!"
Non-pandemic people problems
Robert Cook said...
["The fact is, Treyvon Martin, who was NOT a little boy (as the media portrayed him to be) smashed Zimmerman's head against the ground. In what set of circumstances is that OK?"]
Um, in circumstances where he fears for his own safety at the hands of a large, unknown man who is pursuing him, in order to protect himself from unknown consequences.
Zimmerman is not a large man and was not pursuing Martin. Zimmerman was watching Martin. A few small lies can completely change your perspective.
Neither you nor I was there, but then again, that's what trials are for.
Cook has the definitive story about everything, especially everything he knows nothing about. Trials are a waste of resources in Cook-land.
Blogger Original Mike said...
"You say that as if there has never been any positive results at all from such a program - is that really your beleif or are you using hyperbole while venting?"
I'm with David Begley: "The government needs to protect good citizens from criminals. That's what laws and jails are for."
_________
a better formulation:
Good citizens should demand the government protect them from criminals. and therefore those who don't demand this are not good citizens.
In delegating the administration of justice to the states, citizens expect the justice to be consistently and appropriately administered. When that deal breaks down, you get community rebellions / refusal to help and / or communities ruled by vigilante/ gang / organized crime. At some point, the pendulum is going to swing from 3strikes back to a death wish / Bernard Goetz. Petty sure, with the bail reform and anti cop das in SF and Philly, we are closer to Death Wish than we would like to be
But we’re so hard on juvenile offenders.
Rick writes: Quaestor said...
Maybe now the liberals in Madison will wake up and put criminals in jail and keep them there.
No. I did not. When quoting other comments I typically use the italic font. The opinion you attribute to me belongs to David Begley.
Blogger Michael K said...
(Quoting Cooke)
Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to
This is dumb even if it was true. If someone -- even a cop -- advises you not to do a thing, like follow a criminal, and you follow the criminal anyway, get into a tussle with him, and shoot him dead in self defense, this is not a crime.
Jesus.
Other than he murdered two people. There is that.
@Dr. K., we don’t know that at all. We only know he was arrested for the crime. A prosecutor still has to present evidence and a jury needs to weigh it.
It strikes me that Martin had a valid self-defense motive for his actions, not Zimmerman.
This is the essence of Cook. If your existence advances Cook's politics he'll say you have a valid motive for self defense because someone watches you. If your existence isn't useful for his politics he'll say you don't have a valid reason for self defense even if someone is bashing your head on the pavement and tries to take your gun.
Big Mike @4:09: the video I watched was posted by “RK” on this thread at 12:02 today. Hope that helps. Yeah, I would say that the guys in the offending (stolen) car had committed a number of crimes: (1) stealing the car (2) running a red light (while probably speeding) (3) leaving the scene of the accident which their reckless conduct had obviously caused. IMHO that trifecta should have cost them all some hard time.
Here's a quote from Ozanne in The Isthmus:
“I saw myself, at least when I started law school, as potentially a defense attorney,” he remembers. “But then I realized you could effectuate more change and have more of an ability to protect the community on this side.”
Why would he defend his brothas one at a time when he can be the DA and simply decline to prosecute them, or fail while prosecuting them, en masse. That is how he protects his community. The liberholes and Progolodytes who elected him are happy for him to draw a pay check while being too lazy and/or stupid to do his job, and any criticism he earns is countered with the race card.
Mike K: "We don't know much..." I misspoke. I should have distinguished between the state of our knowledge about what the State knew about Khari when it decided to defer prosecution, and the state of our knowledge today as we discuss whether the State screwed up. My (pedantic, abstract) point was simply that the State didn't know much, but it was willing to take a chance, and it was rolling the dice with (as it turns out) the lives of future victims. (Yes, I know that Khari has only been arrested, not convicted, of murdering these people; but our whole debate implicitly assumes it was a good bust and the issue is, should the State have taken that chance?).
Anyway, the state of the State's knowledge when it decided to cut Khari a break was, as the video (posed by "RK" at 12:02) shows pretty clearly IMHO, it knew or should have known that he was pretty much indifferent to the lives and rights of others.
The pre trial Diversion program is like a short probated sentence that dismisses all charges if no new offense is committed for a set time. They usually require fines and probation reporting that makes income for the local system. It is designed primarily to avoid a criminal conviction record in exchange for cash. The downside is that fear of the law that will convict and jail crazy mean people is never created in the asshole who usually totally disrespects law enforcement that tried so had to let him off.
Cookie: "Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to..."
In Cookies mind, Zimmerman was "guilty" the very moment he became a "white"-hispanic.
Zimmerman was SOOOOOOOO guilty that NBC had to doctor the audio record of the event to "help" the narrative along.....
This is not a case that makes liberal sentencing look good. There might be other factors that will make the murderer look very, very bad. If you express any public outrage at this case, the media will not be sympathetic. I don't think this case will get much coverage. Some time soon some black person will get shot by a cop under questionable circumstances. That shooting will get saturation coverage.....I wonder if Trayvon Martin's father had any domestic difficulties with the five women with whom he fathered a baby. I wonder if those domestic difficulties were in any way more intense or unpleasant than those of Zimmerman. We'll never know.
the video (posed by "RK" at 12:02) shows pretty clearly IMHO, it knew or should have known that he was pretty much indifferent to the lives and rights of others.
Agreed. I didn't mean to be argumentative. I was referring to what we know now.
I'm just finishing up my home-made AR-15 rifle today. It's been a lot of fun.
My son built two from lowers he bought before California banned them. I gave him my AR 15 bench vise.
@Nichevo, Zimmerman’s gun has always been described as a Kel-Tec PF9, which is chambered in 9 mm. Kel-Tec makes a pistol chambered in .380 called the P3AT, apparently based on the same frame and slide. The PF9 is relatively cheap, MSRP about $350, but gun review articles are scathing, and I have watched a YouTube video where the highly experienced gun expert has to deal with numerous malfunctions and finally gives up on the gun.
Etienne,
One word: "Tanerite"
Get some.
Turns out that there was an outstanding warrant in Breckenridge for a traffic ticket, and I couldn’t bail out until they had ferried it dow to Brighton, 100 miles away, where I was being housed for the night.
I spent a day in jail one time and it was one of the most interesting times I had. I had forgotten to pay a expired registration ticket. That was the days when Inglewood CA had nothing more serious to worry about. I was an engineer with a secret clearance when the front desk called me to tell me there was a detective to see me.
He took me to the "tank" in Inglewood to await an appearance. The rest of the tank denizens were the interesting part. One had gotten out of prison and had no place to live. So, he broke into a house and made himself a sandwich and watch TV until the owners got home. He figured he would get 3 months and the weather would be warm by the time he got out.
My boss bailed me out and I haven't been back but it was a very interesting experience. Nothing like Clint Eastwood's in "Heartbreak Ridge."
Zimmerman was SOOOOOOOO guilty that NBC had to doctor the audio record of the event to "help" the narrative along.....
And ABC used very low quality video to "demonstrate" Zimmerman did not have injuries to the back of his head....
Big Mike, I indeed thought it was a P3AT. I will recheck reports. That news quite elevated the little .380 in my estimation. Although with the new wave of little nines, I still say why bother; but would not likely offer to stand in front of one.
And ABC used very low quality video to "demonstrate" Zimmerman did not have injuries to the back of his head....
Not to mention careful placement of a corporate logo so that one couldn’t see the blood on Zimmerman’s head. Or was that one of the other 3-letter news organizations?
"To my knowledge...there was nothing restricting Mr. Sanford's ability to possess a firearm," Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne says. Can a Felon Own a Gun? 5 Loopholes in Federal Law. "3. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, "Felons whose convictions have been set-aside or expunged, or for which the person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored" are not considered "convicted" and thus they would not be prohibited from owning a gun." Assuming he bought this legally I see a loophole that needs to be closed. https://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/can-a-felon-own/2014/11/17/id/607940/
"Not to mention careful placement of a corporate logo so that one couldn’t see the blood on Zimmerman’s head. Or was that one of the other 3-letter news organizations?"
It was ABC. Martin Bashir on MSNBC simply stopped the video a moment before it revealed the injury to howl about the lack of an injury. He was one of the worst of a horrible set of journos.
@Nichevo, I understand that the Europeans use a somewhat hotter loading in their .380 rounds, making them pretty lethal at the ranges where police engage suspects. Of course they aren’t called .380 acp in Europe; the round is called 9 mm short (9mm Kurz in German, 9 mm Corto in Italian, 9 mm Karatak in Slovenian).
Interesting fact I just learned: Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated using a .380 handgun.
@Jupiter (1:15), at about the 31 minute mark Glenn Loury admits that he had fallen into assessing the truth about assertions according to the politics of who made the assertion, as opposed to what evidence there was to support the assertion. It's an easy trap, but IMHO all too easy a trap for liberalsl to fall into.
As a non-mind reader (apparently one of the few) I can't reasonably decide with any precision who might commit further crimes and/or more violent crimes. So I would say lock 'em up.... OR.... look for clues that do not require mind reading.
For example juvenile records are often sealed. Can these be made available only for those making the call on diversion programs? If so a pattern of crime may allow a more reasoned decision.
Interesting how this became a thread, in substantial part, about the Zimmerman/Trayvon case.
The two cases highlighted by AA involve murders committed (so it is alleged) by young black men who had previously been given deferred prosecution for other offenses (auto theft for one of them and passing a forged $50 bill for the other). Perhaps AA intended the post to act as a Rorschach test for attitudes about crime and punishment, or crime and race, or crime and leniency (sensible or misguided), or something else. (There goes that vortex of hers again.) But there's nothing special about deferred prosecutions ending badly like these two cases. Deferred prosecutions or others like that offer a way out of the criminal justice meat-grinder to offenders deemed non-violent and open to rehabilitation; they have many successes and also many failures. These two cases feature spectacular failures. You could just as easily have featured some spectacular successes (low level drug offenders would be a good place to look, and Trump to his credit has pardoned many).
You can conclude that, on balance, all such programs are foolish and should be ended; or that no program involving criminal offenders can avoid failures (even spectacular ones like these) but are still worth doing on balance (in both instances everyone assumes that the 'balance' will not be struck at his personal expense, of course); or something in between (have to be really, really selective in who gets offered that kind of deferred deal, e.g.).
Do the best you can in making your choice and living with it.
@JAORE, or look at the video. RK provides a link at 12:02, and I just finished watching the video of the accident. Khari Sanford is driving the stolen SUV at high speed in the right lane of a six-lane street. Cars in front of him slow and stop for a red light but he doesn't even slow down and charges through the red light, T-boning a red Volvo so hard that pieces fly off his vehicle (and I think pieces fall off the Volvo as well). All three teens are out the door of the SUV and running away from the scene of the accident before the cars have even stopped moving. In Virginia that would be potentially three felonies: grand larceny (of the SUV), reckless driving (under multiple different statutory definitions), and leaving the scene of the accident.
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