"... after coronavirus patients taking a higher dose developed irregular heart rates that increased their risk of a potentially fatal arrhythmia. The study, which involved 81 hospitalized patients in the city of Manaus, was sponsored by the Brazilian state of Amazonas. Roughly half the participants were prescribed 450 milligrams of chloroquine twice daily for five days, while the rest were prescribed 600 milligrams for 10 days.... Patients in the trial were also given the antibiotic azithromycin, which carries the same heart risk. Hospitals in the United States are using azithromycin to treat coronavirus patients, often in combination with hydroxychloroquine."
The NYT reports the disappointing news.
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१६७ टिप्पण्या:
Obama's NIH Gave Wuhan Bio-Lab $3.7 Million For Their Bat Project!
Did We Fund Our Own Epidemic, Dr. Fauci?
The Daily Mail reports that Obama's NIH gave the Wuhan Bio-Lab a $3.7 million grant for the Bat Project. The NIH has been funding the lab for a decade.
Dr. Keusch from Boston University says don't worry--there was no leak from the lab because all the Chinese scientists are trained here in Galveston, Texas. Say WHAT?
FROM FAUCI'S BATCAVE--The NIH from 2018:
"Wednesday, April 4. 2018
New coronavirus emerges from bats in China. devastates young swine
Identified in same region, from same bats, as SARS coronavirus.
A newly identified coronavirus that killed nearly 25,000 piglets in 2016-17 in China emerged from horseshoe bats near the origin of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV), which emerged in 2002 in the same bat species. The new virus is named swine acute diarrhea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV). It does not appear to infect people, unlike SARS-CoV which infected more than 8,000 people and killed 774. No SARS-CoV cases have been identified since 2004. The study investigators identified SADS-CoV on four pig farms in China's Guangdong Province. The work was a collaboration among scientists from EcoHealth Alliance, Duke-NUS Medical School, Wuhan Institute of Virology and other organizations, and was funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases..."
...of which Tony Fauci is the long-time Director.
This sounds like the same $3.7 million NIH grant referenced in the Daily Mail story above, or it may even be another one.
It's odd, but I haven't heard Fauci brag about his bat-work with the Wuhan Virology Lab. I mean, if you had done work on the Pandemic Virus at the very lab where many think it originated, shouldn't you mention it? Hello?
My Spidey-sense is tingling off the charts on this one.
And if we're going to do regrets on CNN, do you regret the funding and work you sponsored at the Wuhan Virology Lab, Doc?
Do we want to rest our disappointment on a "small" study from Brazil?
NYT - YES!
Conclusion: NO one at the Times knows one thing about chemistry.
Let's bury all studies that showed positive news, and emphasize a smaller study, with a different drug combination, that did not.
We are the NYT, dedicated to serving the Party at all costs, including your lives.
So, reduce the dosage.
The drug that isn't the drug has some issues? We care why?
Doctor Zelenko emphasizes the need to "Hit it hard, hit it fast" with early treatment to avoid the need for intubation and ventilators, especially when there is already shortness of breath. The treatment is all pills, no needles, no mandatory hospitalization
--a huge advantage.
Not a doctor, but as best I understand it, the hydroxychloroquine attacks the virus, strengthens the immune system and creates a pathway for the zinc, which helps prevent the virus from reproducing. The azithromyicin is to prevent any opportunistic bacterial (not viral) infections. Again, to the best of my understanding.
His standard dosages:
200 mg twice a day HCQ (hydroxychloroquine)
500 mg once a day azithromycin
220 mg once a day zinc sulfate
Daily cocktail for 5 days.
Cost: @ $20.
Looks like the Brazilian study is giving higher dosages...
Not only does the NYT hate America, the NYT wants Americans to die because they can't have access to HCQ.
It's amazing that there are people (ie NYT) who are actively rooting for this drug NOT to work.
Brazil is also using chloroquine, not hydroxychloroquine...
More like, "NYT crows about" it.
The people in Brazil getting 600mg are getting a very high dose.
So half the patients taking the lower dose didn't develop problems. Wouldn't that information suggest trying a lower dose rather than taking no dose? Also missing is the information about the effectiveness of either dose on treating the illness. Maybe that's in the larger story if I click the link to the NYT, but why should I? There are plenty of articles I can read about the effectiveness of Chloroquine, Z-Pack, Zinc combinations. Like any prescribed medication; it should be taken upon consultation and advice from a doctor based on your own health history. Why take medical advice from a journalist that can't code.
It's a "study" with the outcome and narrative sought by the D-hack NYT.
This is how the news is done today. Objective: how can we make this look bad for Trump? This drug is related to a drug that Trump has promoted. It might not work. Therefore Trump looks bad.
NYT doesn't pretend to be a news outlet. I don't pretend NYT is a news outlet either. At least we agree on something.
Better NYT: "A small study of a drug Trump HAS NOT PROMOTED was halted in Brazil."
Large studies, in the United States, of the drug Trump HAS promoted, are ongoing and patients are reporting the drug is a miracle.
The New York Times does NOT report the good news.
So we know that poisonous fish tank cleaner that is not HCQ can be lethal if consumed, and now we know that another chemical that also is not HCQ may cause irregular heart beats at high doses. I guess that settles it.
Hydroxychloroquine + Azithromycin + Zinc. And not for everybody. It seems to work best on those well into the infection from what I've read. But it does not work for everyone. And it is not a cure. But it has most definitely helped a lot of people.
Many other anecdotal stories and official (though small) studies done for weeks showing successes. Almost daily. The NYT may have shown some of these. I don't know as I don't read it. But I suspect this negative article will be used by their partners in the media to hype it as dangerous.
Penicillin is dangerous to some as well. So is spaghetti.
Yet, if any at the NYT got the Wuhan virus they would be demanded the drugs.
Charlie notes: "It's amazing that there are people (ie NYT) who are actively rooting for this drug NOT to work."
WaPo fact checker: four pinocchios " Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine as treatments for covid-19 are not yet backed by reliable scientific evidence. ...Trump’s incorrect comments on the drugs and his role in advocating for their use, based on minimal and flimsy evidence, sets a bad example. His advocacy for this unproven treatment provides potentially false hope and has led to shortages for people who rely on the drugs. The president earns Four Pinocchios."
https://techstartups.com/2020/03/18/breaking-controlled-clinical-study-conducted-doctors-%E2%80%8Bin-france-shows-hydroxychloroquine-cures-100-coronavirus-patients-within-6-days-treatment-covidtrial-io/
New controlled clinical study conducted by doctors in France shows that a combo of Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin (Z-Pak) cures 100% of coronavirus patients within 6 days of treatment.
Not reported, and never will be reported, in the New York Times. Good News isn't fit to print.
600 mg looks like a very high dose. RA patients on Plaquenil get 200-400 mg per day
The heart problems (QT elongation) are a well known side effect of the chloroquine compounds as well as Azithromycin.
That's what trials are for. Doctors in the field will soon have good info on when it's best to use and when it isn't worth it.
Hydroxychoroquine has been demonstrated to be much less toxic than chloroquine. You would think that would be given some consideration for testing.
That's a high dose and Temujion is right that HCQ is less toxic.
Althouse relays more anti-Trump propaganda from the NYT.
Is that helping?
The NYT was looking for that "news."
Most hydroxychloroquine scrips are for 60-250MG. Slam the poor slobs with 500-600 and guess what??
Here's "what": More Fake News!!
HCQ is already approved by the FDA for malaria and lupus. The drug is called, Plaquenil
There's a lotta papers on HCQ, if you wanna read them, going back 30 -40 years.
I suspect that the side-effects are well-defined, given its extensive use and study over the years.
So, doctors can prescribe it "off-label" if they choose.
And, patients can opt to take it, if they choose.
HCQ may not work for this disease. That's life. But, if a patient and doctor think the potential benefit outweighs the potential side-effects, go for it.
Such a phony issue.
Trump is for it, so we are against it!
I can't stand these people.
Don't get your "news" through the New York Times' Trump Derangement Syndrome filter as presented here often.
Here's the actual study in France that concluded that hydroxychloroquine "has been found efficient on SARS-CoV-2 patients.
Azithromyacin added to it "was significantly more efficient for virus elimination."
https://drive.google.com/file/d/186Bel9RqfsmEx55FDum4xY_IlWSHnGbj/view
Chloroquine is more likely to cause toxicity than hydroxycholorquine. For what it's worth, people are put on hydroxycholoroquine pretty routinely in the US for rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune disorders by rheumatologists and sometimes dermatologists. I have never once seen one of these specialists request a baseline EKG or follow up EKGs to monitor the medicine.
"Closely related". I'm with you BAG, these people suck.
The NYT reports the disappointing news.
"Whatcha working on?"
"A story about Trump's miracle drug and how it's dangerous in high doses."
"Why you smiling?"
“ Not only does the NYT hate America, the NYT wants Americans to die because they can't have access to HCQ.”
Why don’t you wish Lou Gehrig’s Disease on them too?
"closely related"? I guess close enough for the NYT's purposes - which have ZERO to do with the epidemic and everything to do with their unrelated vendetta.
Arrhythmia is a known side effect of elevated dosage/exposure to quinine and derivatives. there's no news there.
This, however, is news. New signs suggest coronavirus was in California far earlier than anyone knew
Some have been speculating about this here for a long time, that the virus has been in our community for a while. I know it was because I got it over a month ago, and know people who had similar symptoms back in February. It would make sense that our first spread would be on the west coast which is most connected with Asia/Pacific, and that NYC would be right behind them because of connections to Asia and especially Europe. As we get to the point where people will demand a path to normalcy, more evidence for this proposition--testing blood at blood banks, hopefully widespread antibody testing in large population samples--we should learn more about this. Still seems the likeliest outcome, that it made our shores long before we started noticing it.
they are literally anti science, considering their skydragon worshiping ways, not that surprising, 60 minutes pointedly did not mention the hcq/zpak cocktail, as treatment in nyc,
Giving this post my: #Annboogled tag.
hydroxychloroquine is estimated to be two or three fold less toxic [than Chloroquine]
It's amazing what one little hydroxy group (OH) appended to the end of a molecule can do.
Hydroxychloroquine can rarely cause prolonged QT syndrome which may lead to a ventricular arrhythmia in an even smaller fraction of cases. Almost all reported cases occur in long term users. It’s a little tricky because the virus has been associated with cases of myocarditis absent therapy.
"A small study of chloroquine, which is NOT hydroxychloroquine..."
Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is a more soluble and less toxic metabolite of chloroquine, which causes less side effects and is, therefore, safer.
like h20 and h2S04, chemistry how does it work,
At long last, have we left any reason to believe the NYT?
The Times has followed Soviet-style propaganda for the benefit of the Democrats.
Even they don't pretend now.
At long last, have we left any reason to believe the NYT?
The Times has followed Soviet-style propaganda for the benefit of the Democrats.
Even they don't pretend now.
there You GO! The FACTS are in!
There turns out, to be a possibility of side effects! That Means We MUST STOP ALL TREATMENT!
right? i mean, Right?
This is THE FIRST TIME, IN THE HISTORY OF MEDICINE, that a treatment has side effects!
NO OTHER DRUG, or TREATMENT has EVER caused ANY side effects, EVER!!
We Will Just HAVE TO LET THESE PEOPLE ALL DIE!
what's that? MOST treatments have side effects? ALL drugs are dangerous at Some level?
never mind
Raoult's study was not controlled, despite what buckwheat says.
Chloroquine-gate is going to form the basis for impeachment III.
Wait and see.
"So we know that poisonous fish tank cleaner that is not HCQ can be lethal if consumed, and now we know that another chemical that also is not HCQ may cause irregular heart beats at high doses. I guess that settles it."
Yes. Orange Man Bad. The science is settled.
Trump is NOT "Promoting" the drug. Trump and Dr. Facui are saying the same thing. Its not been SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN IN A CLINICAL STUDY to work, but Doctors are prescribing it, and it appears to work IN SOME CASES.
The NYT/WaPo/MSM are trying to frame this as "TRUMP TOUTS DRUG -WITHOUT EVIDENCE" or "TRUMP PLAYS DOCTOR - PROMOTES DANGEROUS QUACK DRUG".
Even in the midst of this crisis, they can't stop Lying about Trump, and trying to help Biden. Now, they are rooting AGAINST a drug that might help!
It's amazing what one little hydroxy group (OH) appended to the end of a molecule can do.
Cf. the difference between RNA and DNA monomers.
"The NYT reports the disappointing news."
Yeah, but was the NYT disappointed?
I would just like to add that I think it's amazing how fast virtually every commenter to this post pushed back on this obvious propaganda effort. Some smart people commenting here.
The actual NYTimes story is here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article
You will notice that the New York Times is NOT ALLOWING people to comment on this article.
As Trump said, we don't have time for a long-term Clinical study. So he went out and ordered a big supply of it, in case its helpful. And the problem with that is...what exactly?
100-1 Biden will accuse Trump of playing Doctor and touting a dangerous unproven drug in the debates. Right after, he calls him out for supporting Nazi's at Charlottsville.
Althouse comment section more informative than the NYT. But we knew that already.
Yeah, the NYT was "disappointed". They were disappointed the news wasn't even worse.
I don't think the New York Times is disappointed at all. They are probably giddy. They also have no idea what they are talking about, but that's never stopped them before.
The NYT happily reports the disappointing news; and maneuvers to attack Trump.
was Pasteur Jennings fleming, double blind placebo, why or why not, will people live that otherwise would not, but they crave the most draconian solution, that is guaranteed to provoke economic anxiety and ultimately social unrest, you read the young pioneer drone from this weekend,
I don't believe one damned thing that the NYTimes reports. They are partisan hacks who lie about everything and distort to try to push their political agenda.
The NYT is no longer a credible source of news and may never be again.
Wrong drug, wrong dose— how desperate is The NY Times to stick it to Trump?? The role of the hydroxychloroquine is to open the pathway for zinc to enter cells. Giving a huge dose- even if it had been hydroxychloroquine, rather than chloroquine, which causes more (and more serious) side effects, without the entire protocol (zinc, C, z pack/doxycycline to prevent piggyback bacterial infection) is stupid.
I’m embarrassed for NYT bring do blatantly polical and dishonest. They should be ashamed.
Even if they used Hydroxychloroquine, this drug has a well known - if uncommon side effect - which has been known for years:
"Heart damage: This medication can cause heart disease. Although uncommon, some cases have been fatal."
narciso asked...like h20 and h2S04, chemistry how does it work,
A: Weak and strong acids are miscible because H-bonding.
"So (Trump) went out and ordered a big supply of it, in case its helpful. And the problem with that is...what exactly? "
It might work. That's the problem the NYTimes has with this.
They are in full-on re-election campaign mode for their candidate "Rapey" Joey Fingers.
If this works, and Trump was mentioning it back in February, then he's a hero who saved us all.
They can't have that.
Why is a clinical trial being run with 81 people? Shouldn't the study be larger?
DBQ wrote: The NYT is no longer a credible source of news and may never be again.
People who quote propaganda from the NYT need to be called out and shamed.
how did wayne Lapierre put it in a different context 'they want an acceptable level of death'
The NYT is actively trying to fuel the panic, prolong the economic pain, and quash any attempts to mitigate the harm already done.
And, Yet, here's the NYT on January 9, 2020:
China Identifies New Virus Causing Pneumonialike Illness
Pneumonia is definitely dangerous. Gotta take it seriously.
Money Quotes:
There is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.
We can assume that this virus transmissibility is not that high,” said Guan Yi, a professor of infectious diseases at the University of Hong Kong, who was part of a team that successfully identified the coronavirus that caused SARS.
Heckuva job, NY Times!
The hcq/z-pac combo is pretty commonly prescribed for Covid-19 cases in the US these days, NY Times hardest hit.
The following was not noted:
1. The level of dosage;
2. The length of treatment; And,
3. Such pre-existing, "risk", conditions as cardiac disease.
Without the cited report is scientifically null-and-void.
"closely related" - LOL. Wood alcohol and Wine alcohol are "Closely related". I wouldn't interchange the two when having an after dinner drink.
The A-bomb and H-bomb are "closely related" yet amazingly different.
The dose makes the poison. As others (far more qualified than I) have noted above, the Brazil patients were on 450 mg/bid x 5 days or 600 mg/day x 10 day courses of treatment with CQ, not HCQ. I think recommended/reported dose for HCQ is 200 mg/bid for maybe 10 days? So: different drug, much stiffer dose, and no description of how severe the Brazil heart issues were. Science!
In contrast, even a nanogram of NYT is invariably fatal.
BTW, you can see the NYT/Wapo/DNC game, if you google "Hhydroxychloroquine" immediately you get 3 "Top news stories"
The first directs you to the Wapo "Fact checker" which attacks Trump for giving "false hope"
The third directs you to "Democracy Now" which has a Doctor attacking Trump for being "reckless" and "irresponsible"
Only the 2nd gives any positive input: A NY Post article saying "Doctors and Pols, urge earlier use of "Miracle" CV Drug cocktail"
Covid-19 and the flu are related, but don't you dare say it.
The doses are too high and people have side effects they just basically proved what we already knew about that drug.
“The NYT reports the disappointing news.”
“The NYT [gleefully] reports the disappointing news.” There, fixed.
There has also been encouraging news about this treatment. Did the NYT report it?
No drug therapy is without side-effects, which can be severe in some individuals. Without sizeable (1000-up), double-blinded studies, we cannot know degree of benefit or harm, or the "effect strength".
Many people who have taken a weeklong course of azithromycin prophylactically for e.g. a dental procedure (this is recommended for patients with joint replacements for instance) can attest to the several months of GI distress that can result from having their gut flora wiped out. Of course, that's better than having your knee or hip getting infected and having to be surgically revised. That's an example of what can happen from a well-known drug used in a recognized application.
Last week we heard about a report from a French physician of ~1000 people given chloroquine that was said to have a "98% success rate", i.e., that percent of the patients got better. Sounds great, right? But there was no control group getting a placebo. So we don't know how many of them would have recovered if they got no treatment at all. In that sense, the trial was scientifically meaningless.
In truly desperate situations, it may be ethical to try speculative or unproven treatments if there is some rational basis to think they might work. But we can't kid ourselves that we learn anything from this. The situations are not structured in a way to generate that information.
Aren't you brave bagoh2o? I dare you to say it again.
Also, the NYT is sticking with its "US has more Covid cases than any other country" line, ignoring that China (pop. 1.4 billion) got its caseload down below that of the US (pop. 327 million) by ceasing to report new cases.
This proves the paper is not racist. Innumerate maybe, incurious certainly, but not racist.
It's also rather amazing that they are reporting a study from Brazil when there is all sorts of stuff going on in New York City that they could, you know, send someone over to take a look. Or at least make a phone call. It's probably a local call. It's not going to get flagged on the expense report or anything.
I'd like to see someone graph the 2017-2018 flu on top of this COVID-19 epidemic. I'm certain that even if we took the mid-point (peak) of the flu season, it had already far surpassed this virus in cases and deaths. All the numbers show that we have passed the peak of this one.
So I guess doctors will stop prescribing hqc for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis now, based on the news out of Brazil.
"Raoult's study was not controlled, despite what buckwheat says."
First of all, Buckwheat isn't "saying" anything. Buckwheat is linking you directly to the results of their controlled scientific experiment.
Prof. Didier Raoult released additional encouraging results of a preliminary trial involving a total of 36 COVID-19 patients. In a paper, which is yet to be released to the public, Prof. Didier Raoult and his team of scientists and researchers treated 20 of these patients with 600 milligrams of hydroxychloroquine daily in a hospital setting between early and mid-March. Depending on their symptoms, the coronovirus patients received a combination of HCQ and Azithromyci, an antibiotic that fights bacteria and used to treat many different types of infections caused by bacteria, such as respiratory infections, skin infections, ear infections, eye infections, and sexually transmitted diseases. **The 16 remaining patients were not given the drug as a control.**
https://techstartups.com/2020/03/19/encouraging-results-preliminary-use-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-coronavirus-36-covid-19-patients-french-researcher-didier-raoult-says/
Similar drugs? One has bad side effects in high dosages? Now do H2O, H2O2 and HO (sic), NYT.
Althouse blog relies heavily on NYT agenda promotion.
More gas lighting from the Hate America Times.
If this crisis proves anything it's that people will believe and say anything in a time of crisis.
Let's hear from virologists and physicians who have expertise in clinical trials.
Everything else, especially from lay people, is the wildest speculation.
To add to my above comment, if this was February 1942, people here would be saying that the Japanese fleet was massing off of California because some fisherman saw something sometime somewhere.
What amazes me is that the NY Times can't report on this issue to the standards of an anonymous commentariat group on an internet blog. And the writer of that news article got paid to do the reporting.
Perhaps crowdsourcing NY Times articles would work better for the publication of news than their current use of individual biased hacks parroting a party line.
Stv30 said...Althouse blog relies heavily on NYT agenda promotion.
I suspect that Althouse is reading the NYT so we don't have to.
"Also, the NYT is sticking with its "US has more Covid cases than any other country" line"
Also Fake News. Why they do this when it is so easily refuted is beyond me.
Spain leads the world in COVID19 cases, as expressed as cases per million population (the only metric that matters when comparing different populations.)
https://pjmedia.com/trending/no-the-united-states-does-not-lead-the-world-in-coronavirus-cases-or-deaths/
I work in clinical research and have for 18 years. Things wrong with this article that are just facially obvious:
1. The study didn't halt for safety reasons. They halted the high dose arm of the trial for safety reasons and realized there wasn't a sizable enough low-dose arm to warrant continuation of the study. That's actually a sign of poor study (protocol) design because it's eminently possible a high-dose arm will cause more safety issues and need to be halted - you shouldn't design a trial that if one arm of the trial needs to be halted your entire study is thrown out.
2. The article mentions 11 out of 81 patients died. That indicates to me how sick these patients were/are. These may have been intubated patients given one-last-hope admittance to that trial. That doesn't speak to whether the patients who were ON TREATMENT may benefitted. It also doesn't speak to whether these patients had a far greater likelihood of arrythmia due to their conditions. Further, it's possible it was caused by the antibiotic - which they barely even talked about in the article.
3. In successful medications/therapies there are often many "failed" studies along the way. How do you define the dose-levels without finding the upper and lower limits whereby either there is a safety event (upper limit) or lack of efficacy (lower limit). YOU DO THAT BY FINDING THE FAILURE POINTS. As this study will help elucidate.
...Lastly, it's ridiculous to say Trump is touting this. Trump rightfully observed that in China and many other early-hit countries they widely used an old well established anti-viral with some good anecdotal results of efficacy. It's great to develop vaccines and future treatments like Remdisivir, but people need broadly available effective options NOW. That is the right position to take as a leader as the pandemic hits NOW. Should he have tempered his comments somewhat. Sure. But he's also not wrong in his comments. Just hopeful.
Nothing wrong with a leader promoting hope in a challenging time. I remember another president being famous for hope.
"I suspect that Althouse is reading the NYT so we don't have to."
Except she couched this in her own words as "disappointing news." She wasn't quoting anyone. This is her interpretation, since she relies on the NYTimes.
It's not "disappointing news."
It's not even "news."
This isnt disappointing to the NYT.
Oh, if you are sick with this virus and hate Trump you have to make it clear you do not want this drug. LOL. OTOH if I am a Trump loving doctor I am going to make you beg for it.
"disappointing news."
That seems to be the most popular kind, so...
Nothing causes a more angry response in many people than trying to tell them they are not going to die form this. If you tell them they are in great danger, they seem to love that shit. That's been my experience anyway. So, it's no surprise that media outlets are selling what sells.
“ Also, the NYT is sticking with its "US has more Covid cases than any other country" line"
Also Fake News. Why they do this when it is so easily refuted is beyond me.
Spain leads the world in COVID19 cases, as expressed as cases per million population (the only metric that matters when comparing different populations.)”
But you haven’t refuted it or proved it fake. In fact you proved the clam is accurate. Cases and cases per million are different.
You can make an argument that having the most cases is an uninformative number, because the population is so big. But that’s not what you did.
“ Nothing causes a more angry response in many people than trying to tell them they are not going to die form this.”
My guess is that you are really telling them you think they are foolish to worry about them or their loved ones dying. Which is pretty much what you tell us, endlessly.
I propose a novel study, probably done retrospectively- how many NYTimes reporters who get COVID-19 end up taking the HCQ cocktail? Do you want to guess that most of them will ask for a prescription?
The NYeT garbage reminded me of
Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!
"The compound can corrode and rust metal and cause severe burns, the paper correctly argued. If you consume it, it can cause bloating and excessive urination and sweating. Thousands of people in the U.S. die from its accidental ingestion every year. If you are dependent on it, going through withdrawal can kill you. It’s found in significant quantities in acid rain, tumors, and more."
Ken B-- Every day since, I think last Thursday, Good Morning America (my wife watches this for reasons which escape me) announces that "The United States Leads The World In Coronavirus Cases". What they don't say is is only true if you believe the numbers China is reporting. Mendacious hacks, selling Chinese propaganda to try to slag Trump and make people upset. Swine.
If you believe anything that China is saying about this, there's this bridge I'd like to sell you. I'll beat the deal Joe Biden is offering, trust me.
"What amazes me is that the NY Times can't report on this issue to the standards of an anonymous commentariat group on an internet blog. And the writer of that news article got paid to do the reporting."
Oh, I think the writer did exactly what he was paid to do.
"You can make an argument that having the most cases is an uninformative number"
It's just just an uninformative number; it's a deliberately misleading number, which is why the NY Times chose this fake number instead of the correct number which is cases/million.
bagoh20 @10:40 AM: Try this: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/04/the-pandemic-where-we-stand-now.php
Interesting how we never see that on TV.
Penicillin is dangerous to some as well. So is spaghetti.
It is a well established fact that excessive consumption of spaghetti is dangerous for your health. That's why I prefer linguini.
Also, I get arythmia from caffiene. We should immediately ban coffee.
Trump didn't "promote" - he said it was showing possibility.
Why - because along with some other drug cocktails, it was.
Is there someway to mail a box of burning dog poo to the NYT?
Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!
"The compound can corrode and rust metal and cause severe burns, the paper correctly argued. If you consume it, it can cause bloating and excessive urination and sweating. Thousands of people in the U.S. die from its accidental ingestion every year. If you are dependent on it, going through withdrawal can kill you. It’s found in significant quantities in acid rain, tumors, and more."
In addition the vaporized version of this substance constitutes the largest component of green house gas. Far exceeding CO2
Ban this dangerous substance!!!!
Blogger Ken B said..."Raoult's study was not controlled, despite what buckwheat says."
He had a control group. "Untreated patients from another center and cases refusing the protocol were included as negative controls."
It was a pretty simple study. He measured the amount of virus in patients who did and did not receive the drug(s). Didn't he have a much larger study recently?
Dear NYT,
I understand that Covid patients must be kept well-hydrated. Is being treated by dihydrogen oxide safe?
Everyone has properly fisked this. This is very old news. Already known. Dose seems high from all the articles I ran across. This is an old drug, used to treat arthritis. Problems were known from long term use by patients. The use for covid was 5 to 7 days regime, at nothing like the doses of this study. Was they study to ascertain efficacy, or fine tune the dosage? If the later, the study is huge success. A dosage of 1.5-3X rate is a problem. Good to know. Even if it is a small study.
Again, our host proves the "news" isn't news, its narrative propaganda. We get validations of this fact, daily.
Phidippus
No I don’t believe China. I have no idea how many cases China has.
Here is the daily running total I half suspect, for *reported* cases
1
0
1
0
1
0
....
But hikes is still wrong.
DHMO.org
Trump didn't "promote" - he said it was showing possibility.
The term of art is "touting". At least that's what the papers say. Maybe if he untouted it they'd give it a fair shake.
Was Boris Johnson given hydroxychloroquine? How about Chris Cuomo or Tom Hanks or George Stephanopoulos? Are there no "news" reporters who think this is a relevant question? I would sure like to know the answer whether it's yes or no.
TreeJooe@10:51. Word. NYT report is like saying "Wright Brothers stopped flight trials because a guy wire was loose. HUMAN FLIGHT PROVEN IMPOSSIBLE."
My guess is that you are really telling them you think they are foolish to worry about them or their loved ones dying. Which is pretty much what you tell us, endlessly.
4/13/20, 11:05 AM
If I change my voter registration from Independent to Democrat, how long does it take to get my nifty Mind Reading Powers?
"My guess is that you are really telling them you think they are foolish to worry about them or their loved ones dying. Which is pretty much what you tell us, endlessly."
Some truth to that, but when I have tried starting out with just simple irrefutable facts and no opinion on their intelligence, the response is still the same. The facts can't be refuted, which leads to anger, and the inevitable, "So you are smarter than all the experts." Fallacy from authority, which just makes me feel sorry for us all.
Fear is powerful mojo, and when people feel it's real, they don't easily give up that fear. It's not just this virus thing where that shows up. Its the normal response once people develop a fear, like fear of firearms, or fear of another race, or fear of the dark. Try and talk sense and facts to someone who is scared of something and see how that goes. It's nearly universal, and certainly not new.
ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!!
Michael K.,
Yes, it's a high dose, but tell me: if you were prescribing a drug where the difference between an effective dose (400mg/daily) and an dangerous dose (600mg/day) were only 50%, would you (a) be comfortable giving a generically-determined "adult" dose rather than something based on body weight? and (b) doing it outside of a hospital or clinical setting? (Like remicade, at least at the time my Dad was getting it for Crohn's... he had to visit the office for his weekly?/bi-weekly? treatment.)
" Is being treated by dihydrogen oxide safe?"
"In 2016, an estimated 320 000 people died from drowning, making drowning a major public health problem worldwide. In 2015, injuries accounted for over 9% of total global mortality. Drowning is the 3rd leading cause of unintentional injury death, accounting for 7% of all injury-related deaths."
I hope I didn't just start a panic.
Had the NYT's reported any of the success stories that are all over the place. But and 81 person trial in Brazil, where Hydroxychloroquine is sold over the counter for malaria prevention is....valid.
Here comes the disinformation campaign. And if the NYT's published it, it's not disappointing news. It means it works... it means it probably has a lot to do with the diminishing NY numbers. India's resistance to the virus.
I don't believe anything the NYTs writes. Seems pragmatic not to.
Was Boris Johnson given hydroxychloroquine?
According to the British papers, he was not.
Does the good professor really take the NYT's seriously? Or does she just throw it out there to point out their propaganda?
The W.H.O (for whatever the fuck they are worth) lists hydroxychloroquine as one of the world's essential drugs.
You know what drug is the most dangerous and the definition of false hope? And it cures very few of it's patients.
Chemo-fucking-therapy
Thanks, Phidippus.
From his link: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/04/the-pandemic-where-we-stand-now.php
"Worldwide, the COVID-19 fatalities add up to just under 20% of an average flu season. In the U.S., COVID-19 fatalities to date are 26% of the number that we suffered just two flu seasons ago."
Hydroxychloroquine and any cure is a threat to the Bill Gates vaccination and digital identity tracking dream.
The Times:
"The study, which involved 81 hospitalized patients in the city of Manaus, was sponsored by the Brazilian state of Amazonas. Roughly half the participants were prescribed 450 milligrams of chloroquine twice daily for five days, while the rest were prescribed 600 milligrams for 10 days."
The Study:
"Eligible participants were allocated to receive orally or via nasogastric tube high dose CQ (600mg CQ twice daily for 10 days or total dose 12g); or low dose CQ (450mg for 5 days, twice daily only on the first day, or total dose 2.7g)."
Everything The Times wrote about this that had a number in it is wrong.
Blogger daskol said... and others
more evidence for this proposition--testing blood at blood banks, hopefully widespread antibody testing in large population samples--we should learn more about this
_________+++++++++
what is the likelihood of "community spread" via blood products?
Recall the child who got infected with HIV via blood product! years ago.
Rabel said...
The Times:
Everything The Times wrote about this that had a number in it is wrong.
4/13/20, 12:20 PM
I guess all that Merit doesn't apply to math. Don't worry, Harvard assures me that NYT elites have much more positive personal qualities than, say, any Asian person.
The shocking intensity of the NYT's innumeracy and hatred of the easy solution is becoming very amusing. I don't think it will take too much effort for Donald Trump or even AOC to lead the masses of New Yorkers into a bloody frenzy against their gentry class. Can't wait for it.
So the FDA said it was ok to prescribe Hydroxychloroquine for off-label COVID-19 usage because only Donald Trump says it works? India resisted sharing their supply?
The totalitarian Governor of Michigan reversed course on her ban, and then asked the Feds for more?
Remember folks. For liberals, Marijuana is Medicine.
Even he NY Post gets into the fear hype. They published a picture of people in hazmat suits burying the dead in NYC…..in what turns out to by NYC’s potters field since the early 60s.
"But I suspect this negative article will be used by their partners in the media to hype it as dangerous."
"The NYT reports the disappointing news."
Mission accomplished.
These results of significant occurrence of dangerous heart side effects havent been reported with any other studies, or with the thousands of patients being treated in hospitals or by their PCPs. Makes me suspect Brazil screwed up and gave patients HCQ who had significant risk factors for the side effects or something, and doctors elsewhere have been more careful.
"Brazil screwed up and gave patients HCQ "
They used CQ, which is more toxic than HCQ.
Ken B: "Also Fake News. Why they do this when it is so easily refuted is beyond me."
Really?
It's really "beyond" you to understand why they do this? It's inexplicable eh?
Well.
It's like the last 4 years (nay, last 4 decades) never even happened.
Rabel @12:20: excellent de-pantsing of these cub reporters at NYT.
I want to buy an anti-subscription to NYT. For $50 one of its six remaining readers will lose access for a year. Deal?
I think enthusiasm for these drugs would be a little lower if they actually knew soemthing about Didier Raoult.
Sheesh. This pharma stuff is tricky.
I mean, the CDC director referred to it as hydroxyurea.
Those results would suck too.
compilation of evidence on hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin in treatment of COVID-19
This from Instapundit:Fast track testing of hydroxychoroquine learning-while-doing clinical trial
Although ARM would prefer to make the judgement on an Ad Hominem basis.
@ Rabel 12:20
"Everything The Times wrote about this that had a number in it is wrong."
No way!
Yes, it's a high dose, but tell me: if you were prescribing a drug where the difference between an effective dose (400mg/daily) and an dangerous dose (600mg/day) were only 50%,
The recommended regimen that I have seen and believe is 400mg bid x 1 day, then 200 mg bid x 5 days.
My wife has taken 300 mg per day for three years for her rheumatoid arthritis. No side effects.
I have also read that no one taking that 300mg per day regimen for RA or lupus has ever contracted SARS-CO 19.
On doses, also referred to as "Therapeutic range," the difference between effective dose and lethal dose is quite narrow for many drugs, like digitalis.
what ever happened to that woman who poisoned her husband with fish tank cleaner - then blamed Trump. Media pounced. then - turned out she is a big democrat. Media dropped it.
Fernandistein linked Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!
Oxidane, like methane, is a potent greenhouse gas.
"These results of significant occurrence of dangerous heart side effects havent been reported with any other studies, or with the thousands of patients being treated in hospitals or by their PCPs. Makes me suspect Brazil screwed up and gave patients HCQ who had significant risk factors for the side effects or something, and doctors elsewhere have been more careful."
Based upon the reporting, which itself is specious, they rushed the development and planning of that study. Their high dose arm showed too much safety risk so they cancelled the whole study? Why? That's not how you design a multi-arm study. You design it so that if the low dose isn't efficacious enough, you can assess whether a higher dose increases efficacy at acceptable levels of safety/AE/SAE. And if your high dose isn't safe enough but is effective, you can see if the low dose brings down the side effects enough while maintaining a reasonably safe profile.
Honestly I just blame the reporting here. It's too weak to rely upon it for facts.
I can't wrap my head around the EVIL that consumes the NYTs to even publish this. What is worse is the amount of Americans that don't think for themselves and buy their bullshit.
The number of daily new cases in New Yory has dropped only a little but the number of people in intensive care has fallen quite a bit. Clearly, whatever the doctors are doing now is working much better than what they were doing a few weeks ago. How is it that no reporters seem to be interested in what's different now?
One time I did a study. I drank a 12-pack of beer, then I smoked some good pot. I got the spins and threw up. Wrecked the night.
Then, I got stoned the next night BEFORE I drank the beer, and had a great time.
I didn't cancel the study. I just adjusted the regimen.
There are always comments questioning why Althouse reads the NYT and why Althouse posts these stories from the NYT.
Occasionally jocular such as"Why read NEW YORK SLimes?" or "I use the Times for toilet paper".
C'mom, man!, Here's the thing. All the media repeats what the Times says. All our leftist friends, acquaintances and relatives get the Times spin first or second or third hand, either from social media or tv.
When Althouse posts the mis-information from Times, or any other source, it gives us normal people the opportunity to prepare to correct and educate the less fortunate who are influenced by the lies.
The comments here not only contradict the Times, but provide the evidence and facts useful to hopefully help the inadequately informed .
I am not speaking of the hard core haters of Trump and Trump voters who look for confirmation of their bias. I am speaking of the relative or neighbor who will actually listen and be thankful for the truth.
Probably someone has posted this already, but it is worth repeating.
Compilation of evidence on hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19
(It was Walter, I think, that linked to this yesterday.)
It's a list of all the reported data, negative or positive, for trials using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine to treat Covid-19.
It is updated every day. If you check, the Brazilian study is in there and has been in there for about a week.
But there are a couple of things of note here.
First of all I find it remarkable that the NYT is reporting on this Brazilian study while at the same time apparently ignoring several other studies reporting much more positive results in this same time frame, including especially the 1,061 patient study from Marseille, France.
Note that 81 is less than 1,061.
Second, there are some clues as to what might have gone wrong with the Brazilian study if one looks into it.
First 35 of the 81 patients were in an intensive care unit as they were being treated, and, second, an amazing 72 of them had already had respiratory therapy.
This may explain why they were being treated with such high dosages. Because it sure sounds like these are very sick people that are already quite close to death.
Also of interest, all of those given the high doses treatment arm were over 75 years of age.
There are several different theories of how hydroxychloroquine works.
I like the zinc narrative. But if the zinc narrative is true, then the right time to give hydroxychloroquine is as soon as you suspect someone is ill, and the sooner the better.
It seems to me that if you look at the current hydroxychloroquine data as a whole, it's very promising. The evidence is growing stronger and stronger that the hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin (and probably zinc) combo can substantially reduce the mortality from COVID-19.
What it cannot do is heal everyone.
If the people at the NYT could only report the facts, they would not feel good about it.
1970's Liberals: If it feels good, do it!
2020's Liberals: If it feels good, print it!
I haven't read the NYT article and I haven't read all the comments yet, but I'm seeing a lot of people talking about 600 mg of chloroquine per day as a high dose.
That's interesting on two levels.
First the study in question did not give anyone 600 mg per day. They had two treatment arms: one at 1200 mg per day; and one at 450 mg per day.
Second people are comparing these dosages to recommended hydroxychloroquine dosages, which are usually much lower, but that is part of the advantage of hydroxychloroquine. That is you can apparently dose hydroxychloroquine lower and get a similar effect as higher dosages of chloroquine.
I'm not sure the real problem here is the dosages. Instead I think the main reason they had a problem was that everyone involved was already very ill.
I like the zinc narrative. But if the zinc narrative is true, then the right time to give hydroxychloroquine is as soon as you suspect someone is ill, and the sooner the better.
I don't know what to make of the Zinc thing but I agree. Do it early. I just came from reading a facebook link to an article on a Chicago detective, not elderly, who died after being denied a PCR test. Assuming she had the virus, why not treat her with HCQ? Still, there are people arguing this "unproven" theme.
Governor Kristi Noem has today announced that the state of SD. would be conducting a statewide trial of Hydroxychloroquine.
We'll see how that comes out.
But maybe it's a case of Americans doing the job Foreigners won't do.
Aaaaannnddd... The Washington Post is giving Hydroxychloroquine as and effective COVID-19 treatment four Pinocchios.... which means it probably works.
I'm sure it is disappointing news to anyone choosing to put their faith into the medical advice of the distinguished Dr. Donald.
Rabel said
"Eligible participants were allocated to receive orally or via nasogastric tube high dose CQ (600mg CQ twice daily for 10 days or total dose 12g); or low dose CQ (450mg for 5 days, twice daily only on the first day, or total dose 2.7g)."
Everything The Times wrote about this that had a number in it is wrong.
4/13/20, 12:20 PM
Michel Crichton explained exactly this article as the Gell-Mann Amnesia affect
Everything in the article is wrong. But the good leftist, if he would have caught all the errors, would turn the page, read the next article assuming its accurate.
Remember, internet is bad because there are no editors, but the NYT...
They conducted a large study the size of a small study.
"I don't know what to make of the Zinc thing but I agree. Do it early. "
From my understanding of the chemistry behind it, the zinc alters the ionic potential of the cell membrane in RBCs (red blood cells) which allows the HCQ to enter the cell and enact it's prophylaxis on the hemoglobin molecule that the WuhuFlu targets. HCQ can work without added zinc, but it takes longer to have an effect. In advanced-stage patients, the boy's immune response might have depleted enough of the serum zinc in the blood that HCQ is not effective on it's own. In a nutshell, that is my understanding of the mechanism of action. Others with actual degrees in these subjects please feel free to correct me or point to any issues with my explanation - I'm always open to learning and maybe I'm 100% backwards.
As for the ZPak (azithromycin), that is added in to stave off possible bacterial infection as a result of the lung damage and pneumonia like symptoms. It doesn't fight the WuhuFlu itself, it takes some heat off the immune system (opens a second front on the bacterial infections) so the body can focus more on fighting the virus.
* body's, not boy's
millions of people, including myself, have taken Chrloroquin for malaria, either low dose as prevention or higher dose for treatment, but we didn't see all the problems being touted, maybe because we didn't do EKG's on our patients, or maybe because the disease is a lot worse than worryinng about a possible aarrhythmia.
But I do wonder if Brazil got hold of poor quality chloroquin, or maybe one with fake ingredients. Fake and counterfeit drugs, mainly from China but also from India, are a major problem in third world countries.
"As for the ZPak (azithromycin), that is added in to stave off possible bacterial infection"
Gregory Rigano Retweeted
InceptionViet
@InceptionCap
·
Mar 21
Replying to
@InceptionCap
@biannagolodryga
and 3 others
Prior research has shown that Azithromycin has antiviral effects in bronchial epithelial cells, despite being commonly used as an antibiotic.
Novel antiviral properties of azithromycin in cystic fibrosis airway epithelial cells
"Prior research has shown that Azithromycin has antiviral effects in bronchial epithelial cells, despite being commonly used as an antibiotic."
Well there ya go, I learned something new. I still think the reason they began using it was for it's antibacterial properties, but if it works against viruses in some capacity, so much the better.
"I don't know what to make of the Zinc thing ..."
Apparently, zinc is known to interfere with coronavirus reproduction in vitro, but not in vivo. The claim is that HCQ opens cellular zinc channels, allowing the zinc ions in the intracellular medium to enter and disrupt the virus.
Even I can see the deficiencies of the study, based on what I’ve heard elsewhere. Wrong drug, wrong dosage, wrong country. And then there is the wrong reporting. Two wrongs don’t make a right, but four wrongs certainly so make a NYTimes “trash Trump” story. This is the epitome of irrelevancy and incompetence. As my son says about certain football plays, the ones that end up with 4th and 23: “Ill-conceived and yet poorly executed"
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