"... since Tuesday, when State Department envoy to Ukraine William Taylor testified to the House Intelligence Committee. The problem with this narrative is that all we have to rely on is Mr. Taylor's opening statement and leaks from Democrats. What we don't know is how Mr. Taylor responded to questions, or what he knew first-hand versus what he concluded on his own, because like all impeachment witnesses he testified in secret. Chairman Adam Schiff, with the approval of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, refuses to release any witness transcripts.... House Republicans staged a protest at the House Intelligence hearing room on Wednesday to demand an open process, and it was a PR stunt. But they are right about the disgrace of this closed-door impeachment. This isn't routine oversight of a bad presidential decision or reckless judgment. The self-described goal of Mr. Schiff's hearings is to impeach and remove from office a President elected by 63 million Americans. This requires more transparency and public scrutiny than Mr. Schiff's unprecedented process of secret testimony, followed by selective leaks to the friendly media to put everything in the most anti-Trump light, in order to sway public opinion."
From "Schiff's Secret Bombshells," an editorial in the Wall Street Journal.
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१५४ टिप्पण्या:
Impeachment by leak, headline and soundbite. I think Hamilton covered that in Federalist 6.
Anyone else see the disgraceful piece in the WaPo where Ron Chernow predicted the opinion of Hamilton about the Trump impeachment? I got a line from Madison and he is totally opposed.
These assholes that keep comparing the secrecy of these hearings to grand jury procedures sure seem to be leaking a lot.
Which is illegal in grand jury procedures.
The Left does not like President Trump, and seeks to remove him by any means possible, no matter how shady or tenuous.
If they succeed, they are going to like what comes after Trump even less.
What rubbish. Perhaps, the WSJ is not reading the pieces by its star reporter, Kim Strassell.
There's nothing wrong with a "quid pro quo". It depends on what was given for what. Conditioning US foreign aid on X,Y, Z happens all the time, and is normally a good thing. Getting to the bottom of Ukraine's corruption in 2016. Is a good thing. Figuring out what Burisma was doing is a good thing. Figuring out what work Hunter Biden did to earn all those shekels is a good thing.
Hear, hear.
No proof required around here. Just ask ARM and Freder. Third-hand whispers are enough to remove the duly elected president for them. For me, I'm about ready to sweep Schiff into the dustbin of history for his repeated lies and unconstitutional demeanor.
But that's just me. YMMV.
And if, just for shits and giggles, THIS line of attack on Trump for a quid pro with no actual quo is the new and improved "real reason" Trump will be impeached then what were the calls to impeach him in 2016 based on? What were the calls to impeach in 2017 based on? What were the calls in 2018 to impeach based on? What were the votes to impeach taken last year and this one based on? Y'know, the three votes that failed to get a majority in favor, what were they based on?
Coup d'etats usually begin in secret but then have to go public. This will not end well. It just might end the Democrat Party.
Caught a glimpse of AOC walking by the TV just now. Zuckerberg is probably wondering how he got on that side.
She is just nasty and stupid. Is that a requirement for Democrat women these days ?
Trial by press is evidence of a weak argument. Democracy is rendered not viable in a Democrat regime.
In Roman Jurisprudence, no testimony could be provided in secret. The essence of civic virtue (from virtus - manliness) was that testimony (from latin Testis, which funnily enough was a play on words in Roman colloquial latin for testiculus - balls) had to provided publicly in the forum or it was de facto invalid.
Alluded to above, ancient Romans would joke that it took balls to be a male Roman, because it took balls to give testimony in the forum. Perjury or failure could sometimes mean death.
De facto something done out of the light of day, in the shadows should raise suspicion, especially something done by people who clearly have no balls.
Talk about being tried in the press....
Unanimous chorus.
I’ll bet 97% of climate scientists agree with them, too. Why not?
Secret bombshell!?!? I'm still working my way through less ineffectual.
Somewhere George Carlin spins in his grave.
If they want a war, let it start here.
These assholes that keep comparing the secrecy of these hearings to grand jury procedures sure seem to be leaking a lot.
Which is illegal in grand jury procedures.
***********
Grand jurors are selected from the general public ---- NOT from a cadre of baying-hound partisans out to "get" the target.
Right there, the comparing this Star Chamber proceeding with a grand jury is ludicrous.
Scott Adams' "Two Movies" theory keeps getting more and more real.
One side sees a Heroic Whistleblower, who is finally Exposing The Quid Pro Quo that will Bring Down Trump Once And For All.
The other side sees partisan hacks doing everything they can to prevent any due process, and to leak as much damaging info as possible to the MSM in order to damage the President. A Washington Star Chamber.
Once again the Wall Street Journal is the adult, the sole voice of reason in the sold-their-souls and reputations Main Stream Media.
The Democrats just do respect the rule of law. They do not respect due process. They do not respect equal justice.
Every place in the world progressives take power they eliminate these principles and install a kleptocracy while murdering and persecuting those they disagree with.
They will be defeated. They will never have power over us.
The tree of liberty is thirsty.
Are they going to vote for impeachment or aren't they. Before Christmas or after? We need a poll!
Put up or shut up. The media is expecting impeachment. They have the graphics ready.
Schiff is playing a dangerous game.
John Ratcliffe
Republican Leadership
His defense has collapsed?
What defense? Foe there to be a defense, there needs to be an actual accusation, a charge, and offense.
The only offense I see in this farce is the Democrats vs. the Constitution. Secret inquiries = Star Chambers.
let it bw so!
this is good, too, about how impaired donald is
Kangaroo Court. No more, no less.
Trial in absentia. But the results will be hidden as the proof is all fabricated. So don't expect a real impeachment. It's all for show.
We are now in the much-predicted constitutional crisis. Whatever happens, half the country will believe the government to be illegitimate.
Thank you, Democrats and media, for creating this.
If there was really a bombshell in these hearing they'd be public.
What is the difference between Schiff and a Star Chamber? Or a Soviet style trial, where it's short and the state charges your family for the bullet?
Considering Schiff's track record this is very likely to blow up in the Democrats' collective face. The Dems keeping their distance from it are the ones with brains.
Taylor's opening statement made it clear he had no first hand knowledge about the quid pro quo outside his knowledge that the Ukrainians were unaware of why the aid was on hold. If it was a quid pro quo, no one told the Ukrainians this, as confirmed by Taylor himself.
I am guessing you haven't seen the transcript, which has to be released by the Democrats since they control the committee, because under cross, he admitted he had no first hand knowledge when directly questioned about such knowledge. However, like I wrote above, he admitted in the opening statement, by implication, that he was hearing it was a quid pro quo from people other than Trump and Pompeo. This is no different from the whistleblower complaint- just because the hearsay comes from Taylor doesn't make it any more substantial- hearsay of someone's opinion isn't really evidence. Sondland and Volker have explicitly denied any knowledge of the allegation.
Time is running short and Dem's are getting desperate. I think they think that if they smear Trump enough then independents will get disillusioned and not vote. But "impeachment fatigue" is hitting Indy's too, not just Republicans. Nancy might want to phone Newt Gingrich to get his take.
The democrats don't seem to understand the ugly game they have been playing. The public is steaming below the surface. From coast to coast, despite the rather keenly placed polls, there are millions who are seeing this disgrace.
If this goes on to fruition, I do not like what could happen next.
In the meantime, whenever I see Schiff, I'm reminded of this rant by Al Pacino: You're out of order, the whole trial is out of order...
I think I saw a post that Mr. Taylor's knowledge of a quid pro quo indeed was secondhand. Also that Mr. Taylor appeared to be very much of the opinion that in foreign affairs the President was obliged to support the State Sept. rather than the other way around.
Zzzzz. It is propaganda and you will be happier if you ignore it. I *am* a bit worried about folks who take it seriously, but we will see what happens. It seems that the Ukraine was involved in a lot of the corruption and election interference 2016 and it will be interesting to see what comes out and which way it breaks. But I don't expect anything informative from the House.
Brent said...
Once again the Wall Street Journal is the adult, the sole voice of reason in the sold-their-souls and reputations Main Stream Media.
The WSJ is two newspapers, the front page which leans left and the op-ed page which used to lean right but , except fopr Kim Strassel, I don't know. I think the Murdoch boys will kill it off.
Roger Kimball pretty much sums up my feelings on this in this piece. This is just the latest in a long line of "We got him this time for sure!" or "The walls are closing in!" moments that the Dem-Media-NeverTrump set have put forth that will ultimately lead to nothing. It's as idiotic the 99th time through as it was the first time.
Can we start impeaching Hillary now?
Quid pro quo doesn't prove a thing. You need that it's done for Trump's interest against US interests. Something they wouldn't want to mention because people would right away think of Obama.
They try to escape "done for Trump's interest against US interests" by mind-reading. Trump didn't even think of the national interest, so if it happens to actually be in the nation's interest, it wouldn't count to get Trump off the hook.
It's a crime to have interests that align with the nation's interest.
Same for immigration restrictions. It's in the nation's interest but that doesn't count. Trump hates Mexicans.
The charge doesn't even have to be true, because who can disprove mind-reading.
The girlfriend problem.
Actually we do know how the rest went. It went poorly or they would have released all the testimony by now. Read them like Pravda. What isn’t said is the truth.
Again I say....what goes around comes around, and Democrats will not be happy when it comes around to them next time they elect somebody for President. You unleashed the hounds..and they are hard to put back in the cage....
And they are playing three card monte with the "quid pro quo". The favor Trump asked for was for help with recovering one of the servers said to have been used to hack Hillary!'s and rumored to be in possession of a "Russian oligarch"; not the Bidens' shenanigans.
Hagar,
I can't prove it, but I think Taylor is the person who was behind this the entire time. He went out of his way to text people his thoughts about why the aid was being withheld, but those people were smart enough to immediately push back on Taylor's theories with their own text replies about why the aid was being withheld- now, perhaps those people were covering up, but the simpler explanation is that they didn't believe Taylor theories about a quid pro quo.
I think when these initial ploys didn't work, Taylor found someone simpatico in the ODNI, to file the whistleblower complaint- as a political appointee, Taylor himself probably doesn't qualify as a covered person, and so couldn't use the State Department IG system. Taylor's plan was to then give over his texts at the right moment in support of the claim, but his superiors outsmarted him by releasing the texts themselves, along with their own contemporaneous replies. I suspect that Volker and Sondland have known for some time that Taylor was plotting this- my guess is that Taylor was a bit too obvious in his attempts at trying to get someone to agree with his theory about the quid pro quo- his constant questioning both his superiors and the Ukranians on the matter is very strange.
I think I saw a post that Mr. Taylor's knowledge of a quid pro quo indeed was secondhand
You think you saw a post?
Sounds like your knowledge about all this is secondhand (thirdhand? fourthhand? morehand?). If your think is being thunk correctly, of course...
"in order to sway public opinion"
I.e., the timid Althouses of America. Dems have been enraged from the outset. Righties have come around to seeing Trump as pretty conservative and the target of a witch hunt-a witch hunt aimed at all deplorables. The only swayable people left are those who "don't support either side," cuz they're "neutral," who'd like politicians to be "serious," and have kept up the pretense.
Can we start impeaching Hillary now?
If she were to somehow win and the R's take the house, why not? I would think Republicans would demand it. We already know she committed felonies in handling classified information. Open and shut case. Even if some other Democrat wins in 2020, I say impeach. Democrats are proving you don't need a crime.
What goes around, comes around.
This is beyond dangerous and ridiculous. Are there any adults on the other side of the aisle who can put an end to this charade? If so, this is the time for them to stand for our constitution and not their desired 2020 campaign advantage. The social compact is only viable when it’s respected by all.
As a 30-year subscriber to the WSJ, I can confirm that not only does the WSJ's front page lean left, it is left. The op-ed pages are centrist, which ten years ago is what was called left. And on some issues, such as illegal immigration, the WSJ editors are way out on the kook end of the far left.
Do they know that the public is getting shell-shocked from all these bombshells?
the journal is where glenn simpson came from, as well evan perez of cnn,
Total transparency. Be careful what you whine for, Trump fans. You might just get it. I am personally in total agreement with total transparency.
There is a fairly simple explanation for the bizarre behavior of the Democrats - fear of death.
Capitalism is based on quid pro quo given and received voluntarily.
This is attempt by Leftists to delegitimize all quid for any quo.
implicit QED >>>> Capitalism is evil. Socialism is wonderful. >>> end of discussion and conclusion.
This ship has sailed.
Americans are already yawning when the latest 'bombshell' is dropped.
ARM is masturbating furiously.
The Wall Street Journal was Home to Glenn Simpson.
He runs Fusion GPS.
He is left wing.
The WSJ is not conservative.
It is - at best - Chamber of Commerce Cuck Central.
People are really fired up about this, on all sides. Trump's tormentors have created such expectations among both their supporters and their opponents that failure to produce any evidence in line with these explosive leaks is going to be costly. I'm giving the political edge to Trump under the assumption that if Schiff had anything good we'd already know about it. Trump's most ardent opponents don't seem to notice the way the torpedoes keep coming back those who launch them.
The statue of liberty is kaput!
wendybar said...
Again I say....what goes around comes around, and Democrats will not be happy when it comes around to them next time they elect somebody for President. You unleashed the hounds..and they are hard to put back in the cage....
Yep, for a group largely made up of law school grads they sure don't seem to understand precedent.
Kind of funny, isn't it?
"Capitalism is based on quid pro quo given and received voluntarily.
"This is attempt by Leftists to delegitimize all quid for any quo."
"Liberal" quid pro quo: "You pay whatever taxes I impose on you and surrender your firearms peacefully, and I won't put you in prison."
Schiff is a serial liar and slanderer. He's running a star chamber in secret.
No rational, patriotic American with a shred of moral integrity would believe anything he leaks. Period.
Excellent analysis by Charlie Martin:
If Democrats Are Worried About Releasing Testimony, Why Are They Leaking?
Evidence means "that which is seen". Evidence is not hidden meetings and selective leaks.
The Democrats are running their own Star Chamber.
Let's throw out 300 years of constitutional development in order to get Trump! This will end well.
Chuck, fopdoodle extraordinaire, stopped by.
To lie.
the bizarre behavior of the Democrats - fear of death.
It's the tell-tale hearts of choices past, present, and in progress.
The Democrat desperation is palpable. What do they think they will gain through this impeachment process? What game are they playing? I cannot see an upside for the Democrats.
And here comes the cuck threatening us with transparency. If only you could deliver that, lady, you’d be a little less worthless.
I have to admit about a year ago I was worried the wise and seasoned republican "leaders" would fold and tell Trump to pack it in once Mueller filed his pissy report. I figured they would have a quibbling thing to nail Trump on. Now the handwriting is on the wall and the rank and file voters will oust these republican quislings if they so much as voice support for impeachment like Frenchie Delecto from Utah (check out his underwater polling) It's no surprise that the WSJ would fall in with the coup plotters, they had long ago sold their soul to the transnational interests who are horrified over Trump and want him gone ASAP.
I spy a camel nose.
on a similar point,
https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/culture-news/292763/angelo-codevilla
ARM is like Tokyo Rose. He repeats the propaganda line his masters give him, and he doesn’t respond to questions.
A question that ARM could respond to that could potentially raise his credibility would be how many lies is it permissible for Schiff to have told before his credibility is “impeached.”
Was the lie that he had “more than circumstantial” evidence of Russian collusion enough?
Was the lie that he had not had contact with the “whistleblower” prior to the receipt of the report enough?
How many lies does one have to prove came out of somebody’s mouth before we can stop taking their word on partisan issues?
I've been asked to testify about what I learned from reading stories on impeachment in the Washington Post. My testimony will confirm what others have already sworn to. This is how an impeachment case is built.
Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made? He could put his witnesses and evidence before the public in order to trump the Schiff hearing witnesses. Or he could secretly leak to the press. Likewise, the Republicans in those hearings could be leaking exonerating material that has come out in the questioning of the witnesses. He hasn't and they haven't. It could be there isn't any.
Adam Schiff’s picture is in the dictionary next to “four flusher.”
A four flusher, for those who may not know, since the internet seems to mess this up, is a poker player whose hand is one card shy of a flush, a worthless hand, where a five card flush is a solid hand. Sometimes a four flusher may have a fifth card of the same color, but not the same suit, and try to pass it off as a flush by showing his cards quickly and trying to hide that he has a busted flush, in case that sounds like anybody we know who likes to keep his hearings secret and only selectively show what he has. Four flusher also has come to mean a fraudster, you know, like somebody who repeatedly lies about evidence that he claims to have, but never shows up.
Mueller Report was a busted flush, and so far, this “impeachment” is a busted flush.
Urban Dictionary has no idea what they are talking about on this subject, since the people making those entries apparently never watched “Western Jamboree” at 6 AM every Saturday morning in their youth. Nor, apparently, have they read much Mark Twain.
Secret Bombshell! That's the fart that I used to bury in the upholstery of my buddy's car as I was getting out.
Secret Bombshell. It's really bad for Trump, but I can't tell you what it is.
Our liberal members of the Commentariat perhaps need a refresher course on basic civics, basic understanding of "Separate of Powers" and basic understanding of fucking democracy. To wit:
1. Like him or not, Donald J. Trump got 63 Million votes. How many did Ambassador Taylor get? Zero.
2. Because of the 63 Million votes, and his majority of Electoral Votes, Donald J. Trump was properly seated as President of the United States. He is the Chief Executive Officer of the County, Taylor is not.
3. Under Article 2, Section 2 of the US Constitution, the President appoints Ambassadors:
He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, ..
4. Ergo, Taylor works for President Trump, not the other way around. The President, largely, makes foreign policy. Obscure Ambassadors don't. They work for him. They have one simple job -- implement the policies that the President wants.
5. So, Ambassador Taylor, if you don't like the President's foreign policy, you should shut the fuck up and resign. If Ambassador Taylor had any honor or testicles, he would resign and run against Trump for President. That's democracy at its best.
Odds of that happening? Zero. Taylor is too scared. Wants to fight behind the scenes with kangaroo courts and leaks and NY Times opinion pages. What a buffoon.
The former ambassador, handpicked by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, says he accepted the job because he believes in maintaining Ukraine as an ally of the West and out of Vladimir Putin’s Greater Russia orbit.
This sounds very self-serving.
Immigration is in the best interest of the wealthy. It may well increase national income, but it also increases income inequality by lessening the bargaining power of labor. Democrats used to know these things. Even Caesar Chavez understood that illegals undermined labor’s bargaining power.
Same with free trade. Is it really in the best interest of all Americans that the wealthy “America is already great!” types can easily afford their Audi A8s? Seems like it hurts American workers to me.
Democrats used to know these things.
I was trying to find a video link to AG Barr's speech @ Notre Dame for an observant Catholic friend of mine, and I was astounded to see the vitriol aimed at him. TDS has taken root like I could never imagine. These people have abandoned ALL sense of reality. I've not seen cogent argument yet. The country's gone insane. Hard to find any good in these people. Makes the Texas tranny's mother look reasonable. Far too many drugs floatin round out there.
Hold the vote you pussies!
truth calls agita,
https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/24/msnbc-hallie-jackson-matt-gaetz-scif-impeachment-closed-door-meetings/
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made? He could put his witnesses and evidence before the public in order to trump the Schiff hearing witnesses. Or he could secretly leak to the press. Likewise, the Republicans in those hearings could be leaking exonerating material that has come out in the questioning of the witnesses. He hasn't and they haven't. It could be there isn't any.
10/24/19, 3:06 PM
You mean something like maybe the entire transcript of the call in question? Something like that? Yep, that might serve as a good counter-point. Wish he would be bold and do that. Oh. Wait...
"Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made? He could put his witnesses and evidence before the public in order to trump the Schiff hearing witnesses."
LeftBank, when are you going to prove you aren't a pedophile?
LLR Chuck: "Total transparency. Be careful what you whine for, Trump fans. You might just get it. I am personally in total agreement with total transparency."
LOL
No. You're not.
Because the dems are not.
And that's that.
Chuck said...
Total transparency.
Fen, come back, all is forgiven!!!
"Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made?"
He did, the transcript, the Ukraine president, and evidence that the stalled aid funds were not stalled as far as Ukraine knew at the time of the call.
Exposing Kiev and Beijing is a threat to Biden. Exposing the Libyan-ISIS Affair is a threat to Obama. Exposing the Benghazi abandonment is a threat to Clinton. Exposing the progress of witch hunts and warlock trials is a threat to WaPo, NYT, CNN et al. That said, beware overlapping and converging special and peculiar interests.
Immigration is in the best interest of the wealthy.
Labor arbitrage, commerce and consumers, welfare profits, and democratic gerrymandering.
"Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made?”
Why doesn’t Donald Trump rebut the secret testimony? We have him now! The very question reveals that the whole charade is crumbling.
Skylark, as recently as the mid-90s, Barbara Jordan recognized the dangers posed by mass immigration in particular to lower skilled, unemployed or underemployed Americans. This was not a controversial position, but now pointing that connection out makes you a racist. Here's a video of Barbara Jordan announcing the commission's findings.
How stupid do you have to be to run a strategy aimed at forcing a resignation conveniently without a trial, and at the same time block the exit with a threat of arrest and jail time by Democrats in New York State?
Trump has to win this now. It’s a battle royal, a Texas cage match, there can be only one winner here, and there is no throwing in the towel.
It’s crumbling even in the eyes of the most dedicated trolls. Samson has taken his Twitter account, AKA “The jaw bone of an ass” and wreaked havoc among the Democrats.
Samson rips apart his chains and ropes and begins to combat the Philistines, toppling Ahtur's war chariot and using the jawbone of an ass to club the Philistine soldiers to death.
Just don’t let anybody cut your hair Donald!
The editorial basically tells Schiff to put up or shut up. Why do this make you people so hysterically verklempt?
Yes, why doesn’t Trump gather evidence in his defense through his personal lawyer, Giuliani, and present it to the American people? Why!!!??? Why oh why doesn’t he defend himself against charges of Russian collusion by trying to get to the bottom fo the charges?
Even Left Bank of the Charles wants to know!
Schiff still has an investigation open into Russian collusion, he has never dropped it. The accusations may well have originated in the Ukraine at the behest of the Obama administration. That’s actually what the Ukrainians are saying in official documents!
"What right does Trump have to gather evidence at all? And why doesn’t he present the evidence that we forbid him to gather! And I am not desperately trying to turn his legal defense into a crime to prevent looking into stuff the Democrats did! No no no!”
blathered the Democrats.
"I can prove it to you with geometric logic! ‘More than cirumstantial evidence’”. lied Schiff.
"Pussy grabber!"
"Stormy Daniels!"
"Colluison!"
"Russia, Russia, Russia!"
"Obstruction"
"The walls are closing in.."
"The end is near."
"We've got him now."
There needs to be a rehab center in every large city for this addiction. Many of our fellow Americans need help coping. Put down the CNN, and clear your mind.
Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made?
You really don't get this 'innocent until proven guilty' thing, do you?
The burden of proof is on the Democrats.
There's a lot of talk going around about a poll of 67 percent of Americans think a civil war is imminent. It's pretty easy to see why.
Taylor said he had been told by Sondland that "everything" Zelensky wanted, including a White House meeting and military aid, would be held up until he publicly declared investigations sought by Trump.
Two questions -- Is Taylor lying and he never had the conversation? Is Taylor telling the truth but Sondland lied to him? Either way, why doesn't Sondland have some public response?
Every negotiation is quid pro quo, but not every quid pro quo is a crime.
Isn't is surreal how the democrats/media are carrying on as if Trump hadn't released the entire transcripts of the call? Why are we still hearing testimony from people who are 2nd & 3rd hand "witnesses"? What can they possibly contribute other than their misinformed impressions of what they thought was discussed on a call that they weren't on? Its like conducting an interview with a roomful of Emily Latellas. Jebus. I know Democrats think the american public are morons but come on, help us out here. This is their case to bring down a president?
> Barbara Jordan recognized the dangers posed by mass immigration
Cesar Chavez also, to protect the United Farm Workers union. The conflict goes back to the late 1800's, when the industrialists wanted free immigration for non-union labor. Concerns about cheap labor is also why the Democrats ended the braceros program in 1964. The Democrats are no longer the party of labor, but they, and labor, haven't figured that out yet.
"he Republicans in those hearings could be leaking exonerating material that has come out in the questioning of the witnesses”
They are not allowed near any transcript or other document without a minder from Schiff’s staff with them, so the only leaks they can do are what they can do from memory.
They have said that Schiff is completely mischaracterizing what has been said, and Schiff has been caught lying multiple times on the matter of Trump, so I don’t know what more you could want. Do you expect the WaPo (Democracy dies in darkness) or the evening news to carry it?
Likewise, the Republicans in those hearings could be leaking exonerating material that has come out in the questioning of the witnesses. He hasn't and they haven't. It could be there isn't any.
Come on, left bank. First you have the transcript.
Then you have this.
Plus there are others. You obviously are not looking.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone should care. So are my immediate relatives who, like me, also voted against Trump in 2016 and shook their heads in disgust when he won. We seriously ask, what exactly is wrong with Trump pressuring the Ukrainians to investigate something in Ukraine?
Politicians use their official position and leverage to push for investigations all the damn time, and of course they're motivated by political gain when they do so. Everybody in the Senate who pushed for that additional investigation of Kavanaugh by the FBI, for example. Politics ain't beanbag.
The only question as to the legitimacy of an investigation is whether there's a situation that objectively justifies an investigation. And the possibility that a questionable company is laundering a bribe to a prominent politician through a sham job given to a facially-unqualified relative does, in fact, objectively warrant an investigation. The motive of the people calling for the investigation is irrelevant; it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, and similarly no one sane expects polticians to disinterestedly pursue justice.
Skylark -- I have heard two republicans say that Taylor's credibility was destroyed in "two minutes" of cross examination by the republican lawyer. If true, details of those amazing two minutes would have leaked. Doesn't require a great or even a good memory.
If they had anything, it would be out in the open.
But at this point the Dems are simply determined to impeach and by keeping the charges and proofs secret they can keep the pretense going that they have something. Then rush through a vote. But this is typical lefty behavior and so the Republicans by exploring the implications of the fact that this is how lefty Dems operate and showing that leftys don't care how this behavior violates Constitutional norms and protections and pointing out that leftys intend to do this to anyone they don't like, the Republicans I say, may be able to use this travesty to inoculate the Republic against a lefty rise to power. To vaccinate, rather than get smallpox. This would cement Trump's position as the President who restored our Republic - and as a President as great as any we have had.
Ergo, Taylor works for President Trump, not the other way around.
Taylor does not work for President Trump, he works for the U.S. government. This is not a dictatorship. He (and every other government employee, including the president, who swears an oath) swears his allegiance to the Constitution, not to the President.
GK1 -- It's not just about the phone call. It's about other discussions among the key players that were not recorded. Such as the Taylor - Sondland alleged conversation I mentioned earlier. Let me tell you how investigations work. You talk to A. A implicates B and C. You talk to B and C, and they give you information about D. You talk to D and he directly implicates T. You subpoena records from all of them. And on and on ...
The transcript (which by the way is also hearsay) is a critical piece of evidence, aka smoking gun, but it is not the beginning and end of the investigation.
I get the WSJ most days. I never read the editorial. When you are relying on the WSJ editorial page for an argument you are down to your last few chips.
Let's face it. If the Democrats thought they had a chance in Hell of winning the 2020 election none of this foolishness would be going on.
I think those here who jumped on the editorial didn't read far enough into the article to see the gist of it.
If true, details of those amazing two minutes would have leaked. Doesn't require a great or even a good memory.
Why do you think Schiff is doing this in a SCIF and threatening anyone who reveals what is said ?
Try not to be a dick.
Methinks the WSJ is as stuck on Chinese money as much as the NBA. Both are pro the money flows that they get their cuts from. And for that, they hate Americans who still claim they have a Nation with , god forbid, boundaries.
’If true, details of those amazing two minutes would have leaked.’
It’s untrue because the Republicans didn’t leak the testimony? Hahaha!! But, hey - if the idiot Dems weren’t conducting a Star Chamber and instead had the balls to conduct open hearings, then you wouldn’t have to make such an absurd and illogical assertion.
My question for people who want Trump impeached over this: Should Biden be investigated, or not? Why?
Freder sez:
Taylor does not work for President Trump, he works for the U.S. government.
No wonder why you are ignorant. Didn't I cite Article 2 of the US Constitution above?
He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States,
Civil service laws and protections are subordinate to the Constitution.
You and your ilk don't understand Federalism or Separation of Powers.
Trump should fire dumbass Ambassadors like Taylor and that ditz, Marie Yovanovitch.
The Republicans think it is totally okay to barge into a SCIF with their cell phones, in clear violation of House rules, but they would NEVER leak testimony favorable to Trump. Is that right Michael K?
He (and every other government employee, including the president, who swears an oath) swears his allegiance to the Constitution, not to the President.
And that Constitution says, "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." This is in strict contrast to, for example, the judicial power, which explicitly is also invested in inferior courts established by Congress. All executive power is the President's; any use against the President's will is an unconstitutional act. Any and all members of the Executive Branch have two and only two options consistent with their oath to the Constitution; exercise their office in accordance with the will of the President, or resign.
"It's about other discussions among the key players that were not recorded. "
So, check me on this: conversations for which there is no proof they occurred, and no clear and unequivocal documentation of their incriminating contents.
Got it. Thanks.
Impeach him now, I dare you.
Sondland, just today and thru his attorney, asserts the hoax conversations Bill Taylor claims occurred NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL.
Welcome to Michael Avenetti-ville 3.0.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Hey lefties, this is about your 7th major hoax attempt with the full backing of the Deep State in 4 years (the Russia-gate frame up was kicked off in 2015 by Brennan) on top of dozens and dozens of other daily/weekly hoax "scandals".
Seriously, is this really the best hoax you could come up with?
No wonder Schiff-ty Schiff wont allow republicans to call witnesses!!
steve uhr: "The Republicans think it is totally okay to barge into a SCIF with their cell phones, in clear violation of House rules, but they would NEVER leak testimony favorable to Trump. Is that right Michael K?"
LOL
"House rules"
There are no "rules". You and your pals saw to that.
And Sindland just sunk Taylor.
Cue Sad Trombone.....
Drago -- actually, Sondland's attorney said that Sondland did not recall the conversation. Slightly different than a denial. But you often are pretty loose with the truth.
And, given the nature of the conversation, if in fact it did not occur one would expect that Sondland would remember that it did not occur.
steve uhr, ah so the transcript has been doctored or is incomplete? I've been waiting for that one. Sure Peaches, if you say so. How about the Ukranian PM and officials openly saying they were not coerced or even aware any aid was being withheld. Also "hearsay"? In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya "You keep using that word but I don't think it means what you think it means" :-P
did anyone note this,
https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/24/cnn-failed-to-disclose-biden-apologists-business-ties-to-burisma/#.XbIUHCpbh9I.twitter
GK1 - I'm not saying the transcript is wrong or is incomplete. I am just saying that it is hearsay as that term is defined.
Fed Rules of Evidence 801(c):
“Hearsay” means a statement that:
(1) the declarant does not make while testifying at the current trial or hearing; and
(2) a party offers in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.
right. Adam Schtt has zero credibility. None. He's a laughing stock.
Is Steve Uhr, Inga's new moniker?
why are you loyal hive-mind leftists so easily fooled by the hacks in the corrupt D-party corporate press?
How sad for you. You should learn to think for yourselves. Your hatred of Trump makes you buy wish-facts wholesale and swallow them whole. It's embarrassing.
There is no High Crime or Misdemeanor here. Repeat. There is no High Crime or Misdemeanor.
These House Dems have already concluded that Trump should be impeached. They thought Mueller would produce evidence to support an impeachment in his report. They were wrong.
So, this is Plan B. Conjure some bullshit Ukraine stuff, even though nothing happened, and nobody was hurt, and pretend that something bad happened to support the impeachment mob.
If you support Impeachment on these flimsy bogus amorphous claims, in this context, with these bogus procedures, then you simply aren't an honest or honorable person.
funny how the whistle-blowers have vanished. When it became clear they were insider democrat operatives with ties to Schifty Schitt - poof gone.
I demand the whistle blowers come forward for open testimony.
steve uhr: "Drago -- actually, Sondland's attorney said that Sondland did not recall the conversation. Slightly different than a denial. But you often are pretty loose with the truth."
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
That's right Stevie boy. The guy who was actually supposed to corroborate your 4th hand hearsay says the conversation upon which all your impeachment dreams rest is not something he can recall.
But wait, it gets soooooo much better:
Li'l Stevie: "And, given the nature of the conversation, if in fact it did not occur one would expect that Sondland would remember that it did not occur."
LOLOLOLOL
Ladies and gentlemen and xer-people, there you have it!!!
We MUST MUST MUST believe in the accuracy of multiple handoff hearsay from the Biden Buddy/Burisma-linked/dem partisan/Schiff-staff colluding Taylor who claims to have heard something from Sondland but Sondland doesn't recall that conversation every taking place!!
That's. Just. Perfect.
Absolutely. Perfect.
Please God run with that one.
Run run run.
Run.
purplepenquin said...
I think I saw a post that Mr. Taylor's knowledge of a quid pro quo indeed was secondhand
You think you saw a post?
Sounds like your knowledge about all this is secondhand (thirdhand? fourthhand? morehand?). If your think is being thunk correctly, of course...
Are you really so stupid that you do not know what the point of his post was?
And how stupid you leftists look?
Russia Hoax.
Racism Hoax.
Rape Hoax.
At least Ukraine Hoax starts with a different letter.
Steve uhr, assuming you are not a troll how is it that official, declassified whitehouse records of a conversation are "hearsay". It was transcribed by govt. agents using the same process other presidents have used for decades. A record is sent to the party on the other end of the conversation and then entered into a record. Why are you pretending it's something other than what it is?
You haven't yet explained why you are ignoring what the Ukranian's are saying and what they said about the call and how they didn't see any quid quo pro. Are they not adults with agency or should we ignore them too? I'm not sure you are arguing in good faith. ;-)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/09/25/transcripts-presidential-calls-are-nearly-verbatim-not-exact-heres-how-it-works/
steve uhr said...
The Republicans think it is totally okay to barge into a SCIF with their cell phones, in clear violation of House rules, but they would NEVER leak testimony favorable to Trump. Is that right Michael K?
Try not to be a dick, OK? Why was that hearing held in a SCIF ? DO you know ? Have you ever had a secret clearance ?
Come on. Let's see your bona fides. Or are you just another dick ?
Why is Schitt hanging out in the basement with out any oversight? That bitch needs oversight. He's a walking ball of lies.
Steve Uhr,
Sondland had the good grace to not call Taylor a liar- he is far more a gentleman than I would have been in a similar circumstance. Sondland is already on the record in saying that there was no quid pro quo as far as he knew, and you see as much in the texts that Taylor was involved in, too.
But, sure, use Sondland's politesse against him- it is par for the course with Democrats.
Abuse of process is the hallmark of steve uhr’s career, so of course he’s in favor of it here.
As for leaking favorable testimony- the Republicans are bound by the committee rules in this regard- they can face ethics charges in the House if they describe the testimony in any manner, and with the House in Democrat control, such charges aren't as easily dismissed- they can be tossed off the committee by majority vote, and all committees at that. Schiff, as the committee chairman can leak with relative impunity, as can any other Democrat on the committee- they control the House. Thems the rules.
Now, if the Democrats continue to hide the transcripts, the Republicans will probably start leaking all of on the House floor, with each taking part.
Uh oh.
Looks like the Barr/Durham investigation has shifted into a full blown criminal investigation.
So, if anyone was wondering why the dems/left/LLR's are going all in on this latest BS, there you have it.
The dems know what they've done, and now they fear Barr/Durham know what they've done. Thus: Stalinist impeachment effort shifts into overdrive.
On top of that, their astonishingly horrific set of loser candidates have demonstrated conclusively that is precisely what they are.
On top of that, the dems have spent their entire House majority tenure not doing a single thing in terms of policy. Not. A. Single. Thing.
The dems/left/LLR's literally have nothing else now. Nothing.
Well, except socialism, open borders, free stuff for illegals, shutting down law enforcement, threatening to massively raise taxes, etc.
Good times ahead. Good times.
A SCIF is used for compartmented information - Top Secret. There is no claim whatsoever that TS data is being discussed in this investigation. As to the charge that Gaetz, et al., violated the law by entering the facility, you’d have to show that this is a certified SCIF; those I’ve worked in had armed guards posted outside of the vault door.
A broken clock is right twice a day ( although Chuck like Obama is/was only right once a day) and I'm with Chuck on this call for full transparency. Schiff should release everything they have, all of the "evidence", transcripts, audio recordings and all documents. How else can the Senate judge the credibility of the charges should the House vote to impeach? Trump ought to order Barr to release all of the work product and I mean everything of the Mueller investigation. Full transparency. So for the sake of argument even if there is direct evidence that Trump strong armed the Ukrainians to give the DoJ all the dirt they have on the Bidens with respects to corruption that still isn't a crime. Its doing his duty to execute the laws.
steve uhr is greatly troubled when the accused walk free.
Well well well.
What do we have here?
Ah yes.
Mssrs Comey and Brennan/Clapper are rather suddenly blaming each other for corruptly insisting that the obvious hoax dossier be included in their corrupt lie-filled Intelligence assessment that these buffoons tossed out in Jan of 2017 to undermine Trump.
Gee whiz! I thought this assessment was supposed to be some sort of gold standard on what the russians did and why. If it was such a slamdunk hunk 'o truth, why arent all this usual suspects racing to claim credit for it?
My my. It seems these stellar "patriots" cant run away from this thing fast enough!
LOL
Of course, the real beauty of this is that regardless who did what, they all committed perjury!!
Again!!
Dont worry dems/leftys/LLR's. There are still plenty of hillary/obambi/biden minions running around the DOJ to help run interference.
Still, there are only so many seats in the Russia Hoax lifeboat.....
.....I wonder who will be left to swim without a "life preserver"?
By the way, is there anything richer than Stevie Uhr, noted Russiagate Hoaxer, Kavanaugh gang rape hoaxer and now Ukrainegate hoaxer saying others are a bit loose with the truth?
LOL
So. Much. Winning.
My goodness!
Little Schiff-ty Schiffs next ambassador "witness" (LOL), Reeker, just now figured out that he should keep his very own Burisma connections on the downlow so he belatedly cancelled his upcoming speech to the Burisma funded Atlantic Council!!
LOLOL
Are there ANY deep state dems/lefties/LLR's that AREN'T being funded by Burisma or the russians or Soros?
I think not.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Why doesn't Donald Trump put forward witnesses and evidence to rebut the charges being made? He could put his witnesses and evidence before the public in order to trump the Schiff hearing witnesses. Or he could secretly leak to the press. Likewise, the Republicans in those hearings could be leaking exonerating material that has come out in the questioning of the witnesses. He hasn't and they haven't. It could be there isn't any.
He released the complete transcript of the entire conversation you douche.
Dr K....She is just nasty and stupid. Is that a requirement for Democrat women these days ?
We send our girls to 'college' and they marinate in a cauldron of anger, hatred and bile. It will be over soon.
TradGuy...If they want a war, let it start here.
Yeah...we're past the complaining stage. When citizens cannot attend a speech by the President of the USA without being attacked on exiting the event, we're past the complaining part of the game.
The unspoken sentiment from the "That's quid pro quo!!" crowd is that they really want the grandstanding embodiment of that notion, Biden, specifically excused from scrutiny BECAUSE he's currently considered Trump's opposition.
Trump has an established history of wanting imbalance of aid to be addressed.
Wendybar...You unleashed the hounds..and they are hard to put back in the cage..
2020 will be our last election. Armageddon. One year to prepare. Get on it.
“And they are playing three card monte with the "quid pro quo". The favor Trump asked for was for help with recovering one of the servers said to have been used to hack Hillary!'s and rumored to be in possession of a "Russian oligarch"; not the Bidens' shenanigans.”
Keep this in mind. All international diplomacy is quid pro quo. That is what diplomacy is all about. Also, there is one, and only one person authorized by our Constitution to determine which diplomatic quid pro quo exchanges are in our national interest - the duly elected and inaugurated President. He can delegate that power to others, to the Secretary of State, his Ambassadors, etc. But it is still his power, authority, and discretion. His and his alone.
Are there ANY deep state dems/lefties/LLR's that AREN'T being funded by Burisma or the russians or Soros?
And Beijing.
So the White House placed the transcript of Trump’s chat with Volodymyr Zelensky onto its most secret computer marked “S/NF” (Secret/No Foreign Distribution), which is a pretty low classification. The transcript cannot be simultaneously sweet-n-innocent and “perfect” while ultra-ultra-secret, outside of prying eyes.
Then our very smart President released a shortened chat version which verified the whistle-blower's report of an illegal quid pro quo with the new Ukrainian president. The parade of House hearing witnesses capped by Bill Roberts not-so-secret testimony assures that Trump will face an impeachment trial – likely dragging Bill Barr and Mike Pompeo along for the ride while sending Rudy Giuliani and his Russian buds to prison to commiserate with Michael Cohen.
But your pea-brain continues to push for the invalidation of hundreds of thousands of pages of Mueller investigation data using the personal short term work of Bill Barr who likely hasn’t gathered and analyzed complex data streams in forty years.
And they're coming to take you away . . . for Bribery.
Gadfly. You are in for a big surprise.
As I suspected for awhile now. The "Impeachment Investigation" is a rather trashy attempt by congress to divert the publics attention from the fact that a whole buncha democrats were on the Ukraine payout scheme. Including many on the investigation committee itself. Gadfly and the rest of the usual suspects will, till the very end, claim that this is a Trump conspiracy. The people ain't buyin' it. Once made public the breadth of the lefts dishonesty will be, well, breathtaking. I'm going to enjoy how you spin it , Gadfly.
So I guess the impeachable offense was frustrating the leaker’s access to the transcript, so he ended up caught in a whole bunch of lies, by securing it. It turns out that if you claim to be a whistleblower, that gives you “citizen’s subpoena power” kind of like a “citizen’s arrest” and it is obstruction of justice to block that!
You learn a lot from gaffy.
Sure, we learn a lot.
It would be nice if some portion of it were true.
Beggars.
Choosers.
Sure, we learn a lot.
It would be nice if some portion of it were true.
Beggars.
Choosers.
“ Then our very smart President released a shortened chat version which verified the whistle-blower's report of an illegal quid pro quo with the new Ukrainian president. The parade of House hearing witnesses capped by Bill Roberts not-so-secret testimony assures that Trump will face an impeachment trial – likely dragging Bill Barr and Mike Pompeo along for the ride while sending Rudy Giuliani and his Russian buds to prison to commiserate with Michael Cohen.”
There is no actual evidence of another, more extensive, version or transcript of the conversation, despite a desperate desire for it by the Dems and their apologists. There is no evidence that the conversation was recorded, and significant evidence that it would not have been. Keep dreaming.
Any “verification” of the “whistleblower’s” complaint could only go to the fact that they claim to have heard about the contents of the call second, third, or even fourth hand (and would thus be inadmissible hearsay in a court of law). The contents of the call itself could not have been verified, because the “whistleblower” only had second, third, etc knowledge of the contents of the actual call.
As I noted above, the quid pro quod could not have been illegal on the part of Trump, because that is what diplomacy is all about. And the one person who has the absolute discretion and authority to engage in quid pro quo bargaining with other countries on the part of our country is the President. Any law purporting to restrict the President’s ability to engage in such diplomacy would likely be presumptively a violation of Separation of Powers. Trump is very likely the 45th consecutive President who has engaged in quid pro quo negotiations with foreign countries. This misuse and misinterpretation of criminal statutes is just another indication of the LawFare origins of the entire Ukrainian quid pro quo hoax (You can also see these LawFare origins by the way that the House majority is running their star chamber “impeachment” inquiry, including how they phrase their fake “subpoenas” to use their A1S1 oversight authority to investigate A1S2 impeachment).
Finally, the attempt to drag in AG Barr, etc is very strong evidence that the Dems are starting to panic with the IG Horowitz and USA Dunham investigations of SpyGate. Yesterday, it was made public that USA Dunham had formally turned his investigation into a formal criminal investigation. He no longer has to request that people voluntarily be interviewed, but can, instead, subpoena them before a grand jury bThis was right after his trip, with AG Barr, to Italy to get more information about the claimed Russian agent, Maltese Academic, and documented CIA and FBI instructor, Joseph Misfyp. If, as is almost assuredly the case, Misfyp is a western, and not Russian, intelligence asset, the entire Russian collusion narrative collapses into an Intelligence Community (IC) operation run against US citizens, in this country and, in particular, against the Presidential nominee, and ultimately, President, of the opposite party from the Administration running the operation.
Yeah, yeah Bruce.
But..Dude gotta go!
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