"... that demand is a cudgel, a weapon the haves use to keep the have-nots in line. When you’re confronted with evil, you don’t shake its hand or applaud it. If booing is incivility, bring it on.... The booing is fine. It’s my own reaction to the booing that troubles me — the joy I took from Mr. Trump’s pain and the example it sets for my kids.... We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. For us, kindness matters. When they go low, we go high. Except, it turns out, going low feels wonderful. More than that, it feels effective and proper and just... But another part of me worries about the price of pragmatism, and the way I felt, watching the ballpark video over and over, thinking not just I hope that works but I hope it hurt. If we’ve got to smear and slime and meme and mock our way to victory, who will we be after we’ve won? When does a necessary evil become just evil?"
From "Why Did It Feel So Good to See Trump Booed? When he goes low, Democrats are supposed to go high. Except, it turns out, going low feels wonderful" by Jennifer Weiner(at the NYT).
I'm giving this my "civility bullshit" tag not because it is civility bullshit — because it's not — but because it's close to my topic and I don't like tag proliferations. Here's why it's not civility bullshit. She is not telling the other side to be civil. She's critical of Trump's (supposed) incivility but isn't trying to get him to cut it out. It's assumed (wisely) that he will not. Nor is she saying everyone ought to be more civil, which is the most common civility bullshit that I've been saying is always about trying to get the other side to unilaterally disarm.
She's considering 2 options: 1. Her side should go ahead with the incivility (because the other side isn't going to stop), and 2. The unilateral disarmament of her own side (for the greater good or because it might work).
She concludes: "Maybe we can take a stand and do what’s necessary without discounting the cost; go low when it’s required without reveling in the other side’s pain, taking care we don’t get stuck down in the dirt." Is that #1 or #2? It's #1! But pay some respect to the virtuous road you're not taking (option #2) by taking care not enjoy the incivility you dish out. Think of yourself as that mythic grim parent spanking a child and asserting "This hurts me more than it hurts you."
Meanwhile, Trump openly enjoys his trash-talking. And I think it's rather obvious that having fun with it is more effective. Or do you think enjoying the evil/"evil" makes you villainous?
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९९ टिप्पण्या:
Trump is just giving back in kind what the left has been dishing out for years. The left is outraged that someone is more than willing to give them a taste of their own medicine and they don't like it.
I choose civility because I think it often works. Incivility might make you feel good, but, as far as I can tell, never accomplishes anything else. "The good four. Honest with ourselves and with whatever is friend to us; courageous toward the enemy; generous toward the vanquished; polite-always; that is how the four cardinal virtues want us." -- Nietzsche
I don't enjoy fighting.
But Washington DC Is sick. It is full of a bunch of wealthy elitist shits that take our money and live in the wealthiest counties in the nation.
They sit in their little rice bowls and they try to overturn elections. They start ridiculous wars and they work to make sure they never end. They keep our borders open in order to replace recalcitrant voters. And they use the state media to lecture us on how uncivil and racist we are while implementing eugenics programs and using civil forfeiture statutes. They break our laws with impunity and they frame honest people like General Flynn.
The entire city is a threat to our republic.
So it is time to fight.
I wont enjoy it. But it has to be done.
The other way they find could be more harmful than mere incivility. Violence, for example.
For [the other side], the cruelty is the point.
Oh, right. She's as clueness and myopic as Taibbi.
“ We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. ”
Forget chopping at the branches by trying to decide between option 1 or option 2. This - the above thinking - is the root of the problem we face. This thinking will pollute and eventually frustrate any option you choose.
#1, because folks like Jennifer Weiner are naturally incivil and are going to enjoy it anyway.
The Democrats haven't been the party of the working man for at least 30 years. That is why they have so much contempt for the Republicans and the deplorables who cling to their guns and religion.
when have they been civil to republicans, but nothingless than zombie eyed adoration is acceptable, when it comes to democrats,
I saw the modern version of coriolianus with ralph fiennes as martius, the roman officer who was exiled to the volsces tribe, for his popularity among the troops and the people, he ended up joining a revolt by the latter against the former,
She strikes me as a thoroughly hypocritical rhetorician - she pretends to justly and morally agonize over what she clearly enjoyed and in reality totally approves of. A BS artist at best.
"This hurts me more than it hurts you."
Our incivility is more civil than yours.
This is how you get more Trump.
There is zero understanding that Trump never strikes first.
Zero.
My response to them?
FOAD.
How's that for civility?
The Dems are all about self-serving rackets.
The BS concern for the poor and downtrodden is a cover for their rackets.
Trump isn’t uncivil. He’s mocking the Dem’s rackets, effectively.
After all the lectures about “income equality” and “white privilege,” Dems are all setting up their white kids in wealthy sinecures. In oil and gas industries, no less.
I see I am on the Althouse "do not publish immediately" list. I must have disagreed w/ her once or twice. Kudos to me.
Can someone remind me of when people behaved like this towards Obama? I'm sure it must have happened (since the "other side" is also guilty of incivility), but I've just conveniently forgotten it.
We have had several presidents that I have disliked. If I had been present where they were, I would have thought that sitting quietly would have been enough. It never would have occurred to me to boo any of them - especially if I had my children with me. You don't always get what you want but you need to handle the disappointment with a little dignity.
Yeah, it was a powerful tonic to see a stadium full of rich Democrats who could wrangle WS tickets in Washington, DC (America is already great!) to boo the President who represents the benighted flyover country, who shouldn’t even have the right to vote.
I think it was a Kinsley gaffe on their part. It showed middle America how Washington really feels about them.
I disagree with a lot of the implications and assumptions made by this person
1. Her side should go ahead with the incivility (because the other side isn't going to stop)
I disagree with the implication that "her side" has ever really been that civil to begin with.
Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate.
No doubt this may be what many "Democrats, liberals, progressives" like to believe about themselves, but it's something that a lot of people on the right would dispute greatly.
The point about how it feels good and righteous behaving in uncivil ways toward those you hate is very much a natural human thing. We are naturally tribal creatures who are wired to hate "The Others". We have a tendency to imagine those who we feel have wronged us as less virtuous as ourseleves. As such revenge feels good. Justly deserved comeuppance feels really good. All this is hardly some new revelation. But it's good that at the very least it can be recognized, that there is still some small amount of self awareness.
I know I'm in some kind of warp if the left really believe that it's members are being civil.
It’s the Wellstone funeral all over again. It’s not as attractive as they think it is.
I'm fascinated by her lack of self-reflection. Only the right has been uncivil, while the left has been paragons of civility? On what planet has she been living since the 1960's? I'm NOT saying the right hasn't engaged in incivility. I'm just stonkered her claim that her side has, until now, always been civil. How do you reason with such a person?
Note: I'm quite certain that she would claim that my examples of incivility from the left are in reality warranted protests, which, she would claim, is a different topic altogether. So, in her point of view, shouting down conservative speakers 'civil behavior', because it is a form of protest. Similarly, slamming a pie in the face of a speaker or glitter bombing on is okay. Or, destroying private property because a conservative speaker is invited to campus is civil. Or, going back to January 2017, for members of Congress to make a public showing of NOT attending Trump's inaugural, is civil behavior. I would take a very different view. When Bush was running against Clinton, Ronald Reagan appeared in Phoenix to rally support for his former Vice President. It was held during lunch hour and right in front of our building, so attended. Two young women from my office attended, too. They shouted -- right in my ear -- to try and prevent my hearing a man I'd come to admire and respect. I didn't find my co-workers' behavior civil in the least.
I’d like to see Elizabeth Warren booed at a Redskins game.
These morons loved it when Dubya and Cheney would get booed. Do they really think we are too stupid to remember?
Ms. Weiner is ditzy and incoherent. Lotta "feelz" in the piece. I feel this, I felt that, blah, blah, blah.
So it’s just bullshit without the prefix.
A belief in one's own goodness is the first step toward truly awful behavior.
Buying indulgences is more expensive to the soul than the pocketbook.
--Other Shit Ben Franklin Said, volume 17
"a weapon the haves use to keep the have-nots in line."
It's should be obvious that people who are attending World Series games in DC are the haves. Why isn't it?
The author is an ugly fat feminist who parents were sh*t and she is not far behind. Who listens to these fat, ugly , victimized ( according to them) women who think because they are credited think are intelligent.
We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. ”
Diversity (i.e. color judgments) breeds adversity, and has been conclusively, predictably liberal. Semantic progressions are part of the problem. She needs to lose her Pro-Choice religion.
Lefties have to revel in the other side’s pain. Every. Morning. They need a fix.
Trump voluntarily let himself get roasted by a bunch of lefty comedians on Comedu Central. Why do these morons on the Left think he is a hothouse flower? Could any of these dopes withstand 1% of the daily insults he gets?
the difference is trump fires back, you aren't supposed to do that, you're supposed to accept the wisdom of 'our betters'
Accusing someone of incivility is itself civility bullshit. You don't have to say they should stop it. That's assumed, becuase it's clearly being assigned to the person as a critique. In this case, it is being assigned to someone who is overwhelmingly the target of incivility, who only returns it after being attacked.
Claiming you are the good people, who just happen to have a temporary failing is pretty self-serving and about 5% of fully accepting the truth of your own incivility. This IS civility bullshit of a high order.
"For us, kindness matters. When they go low, we go high."
They keep telling themselves that they [Democrats] believe kindness matters, completely ignoring past behaviors of Democrats/liberals toward decent Republicans. Conservatives voted for Trump precisely for the fact that Democrats aren't kind and "decent" Republican candidates would not defend themselves.
Trump beats them at their own game. He doesn't value their opinions and has no need to cater to their egos which reduces their power considerably.
The bullshit is her claim that her side is civil in the first place. We all know that they are not. I wish nothing good for her.
Returning the ball as fast as it is served (or rushing the net) may be aggressive, but it is not incivil.
Civility does not mean rolling over and playing dead. Does not mean bearing your throat. Civility does not mean capitulation.
The Democrats usually live in urban haunts that are usually hotbeds of NeverTrumpism. Their problem is that they still need rural votes to win, and the Republicans have every reason to start swarming campaign events and heckling the Dems until they break down crying. The Democrats aren't able to deal with constant scrutiny, much less ridicule, so it would have the advantage of forcing the Dems out of contention in states that don't have massive urban centers to farm votes in.
How old is the writer? Apparently she has no grasp of history.
The Democrats have been calling the Republicans evil racist, homophobic, fascists for the last sixty years!
How is that civil?
We're going back to corruption(D) because Trump is hated.
Civility is a wonderful thing, when shared among equals. When people who have power require civility from those with less, or none, though..."
"... that demand is a cudgel,
It's interesting she can understand this when it excuses her incivility but how many times she has applied this framework from Team Blue to others?
She concludes: "Maybe we can take a stand and do what’s necessary without discounting the cost; go low when it’s required without reveling in the other side’s pain, taking care we don’t get stuck down in the dirt."
Oh, she doesn't even understand the decades of calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist wasn't civil. Or that referring to deplorables or idiots who cling to guns and religion isn't civil. Left wingers have been in the mud for decades without ever rising out of it. And yet in their FantasyLand they wonder whether then can go lower.
"For us, kindness matters.."
FALN, Weather Underground, Black Panthers,OWS, Green Peace, PETA..... The left has a long history of supporting and even celebrating violence. Bet Ms. Weiner would not hesitate to attend a soiree with Joanne Chesimard and Bill Ayers as guests. After all, being politically left - they are probably "kind" killers.
The rodeo clown with the Obama mask could not be reached for comment, or civility,.
Trump's unwillingness to take what the NYT, WaPoo and others dish out without upping it up a notch or three and giving it right back, preferably in their faces, is one of the truly amusing things of our times.
The Left couldn't stop their nonsense if their lives depended on it.
Statists are ultra civil when they're pointing a gun at your head and picking your pocket.
Jennifer Weiner's novels always feature characters based on her being abused by ludicrously stereotyped Christians. She wallows in absurd persecution fantasies. Of course she enjoys being part of a self-pitying hate mob. It's her literary modus operandi.
For us, kindness matters.
Left Wing Kindness
I say yada yada yada, (FART SOUND)!
My favorite part of this was some blue-check libtard saying booing presidents at World Series games is the most American of all the American things this side of apple pie... and the reason is because Calvin Coolidge got booed at a World Series game in 1931.
He only had to go back 87 years... almost beyond living memory, to find a precedent.
Now they're attacking Trump because he didn't bring his son out to watch his dad get booed and hissed at. He's a bad parent or something.
Meanwhile, the secret Democrat libtard plan to ruin public life in America for a generation is nearly complete.
Weiner's premise - that the other guy "started it" - is absurd. As is the assumption that nobody's been enjoying the vicious denigration of deplorables.
IOW, it is, too, civility bullshit.
I work hard on what I conceive of as my own gentlemanliness--something not necessarily reflected in the comments I make here. However, I try to recognize when I am straying off track. Here we go:
What am I to make of this?:"We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. For us, kindness matters. When they go low, we go high. Except, it turns out, going low feels wonderful. More than that, it feels effective and proper and just."
From what hell did this awful person climb? The vanity, the smug priggishness, the self-congratulation combined with the lowest form of moral midgetry...this is a truly self-deluded person.
Let me offer a little civility cocktail for Jennifer Weiner and her worthless colleagues: BOOO! BOO! BOOOOOOO! Go home you bums!
She is very unattractive in mind, body and soul.
When were Dems ever civil toward Trump, after he started running?
It's different when WE do it.
Everybody is the hero in their own movie.
"We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... "
You are the elite, who think you have a right to be in charge. You mistake umbrage at upstarts running things, with being downtrodden. It's almost cute in its naivete.
Civility bullshit for the 128,190,010th time. These birds always justify their own boorishness. The only thing new about this was the cathartic feeling to boo after Trump had run circles around them since March when Mueller was finally going to put him away (but didn't) They have had such few winsin 2019 and 2020 looks like its going to be awful.
I say yada yada yada, (FART SOUND)!
Althouse can spell that sound out for you.
It sounds really farty and seems appropriate in this case.
"Civility is a wonderful thing, when shared among equals. When people who have power require civility from those with less, or none, though..."
Althouse didn't address the old lefty saw hidden in that: a purported power disparity.
Trump showing up at a Baseball game is supposed to be non-partisan event. He's just THE PRESIDENT honoring our national pastime. Its SUPPOSED to be a time-out from politics. But the Democrats, with the MSM cheering them on, decided to boo him and chant "lock him up". Again, zero respect for the office, zero desire to acknowledge Trump is POTUS, and zero willingness to respect the people who voted for Trump.
When people talk about Trump "being civil" what they really mean is the D's should be able to trash talk Trump, and Trump should smile, stay classy, and take it. Just like George Bush took it. And incredibly, these are the same people, who for 8 years, exclaimed "How dare you criticize THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES - you racist!"
Your reap what you sow. Most R's aren't going to go back to the "turn the other cheek, we'd rather lose than not behave like Gentlemen, days." We've seen that the D's don't care. Everything with them is a one-way street. The D's have only one motto: "Just win, baby. Just win". They'll play by the rules - as long as they win.
Trump knows what they say among themselves at their klatches. He walked among them. I would hazard a guess that he doesn't give a flying fuck. He's a mogul, they have participation trophies. They're pretty vacant.
Did she miss the Kavanaugh hearings? 🙄
It's not what Trump says it's the way his supporters swallow all of his bullcrap whole.
From this piece “ We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... "
From the NY Post “ NYC secretly exports homeless to Hawaii and other states without telling receiving pols“
The ever-rising cost of the compassion and kindness facade.
It's not as though Trump went home and cried himself to sleep after having been booed at the ball game. He probably welcomed their contempt.
Have fun with it, but don't come crying when it bites YOU on the ass!!!
Skylark said...
It’s the Wellstone funeral all over again.
Elijah Cummings' funeral was the Wellstone funeral all over again. The pallbearer refused to shake Republicans' hands and Clinton went on a hateful rant in front of the casket.
For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. For us, kindness matters.
Who in God's name would say something like this about tens of millions of their fellow citizens?
These are the words of someone with no moral introspection. A person with no concept of sin. Whatever moral faults she may have, she sees them as trivial failings.
Sadly, her readership shares that moral arrogance. They can't articulate where that assurance of moral superiority comes from (unlike, for example the Calvinists of old), but they have it all the same. That's what makes them so scary. Their moral ignorance is well nigh invincible because they see it as just part of who they are.
The left has always been enamored by violence. It is no surprise that they have come with a general principle that morally justifies the use violence against those who call for civility.
The argument goes like this: when the powerful ask for civility from those with less power, it is clear they are really using 'a "cudgel, a weapon" against the weaker. The right of self-defense of those less powerful requires they wield a more powerful weapon to defend themselves against cudgel of civility. This "more powerful weapon" may be a knife, or even an AR-15. The question of just what kind of more powerful weapon can be used is just a minor detail.
I'm afraid that this is what we have to look forward to during the 2020 election campaign.
Trump is the wrestler everyone hates and they fill the stadium to hate him.
It is amazing how all these wonderful highly educated erudite people are lining up for a WWF spectacle.
Of course they loved to boo. He is the guy who stomps on their favorite and gloats about it.
This is getting more amusing every week.
What is most amusing about that column is that she really seems to believe the booing caused Trump pain. How she could possibly be that deluded is beyond me. Trump went to that game because he knew how the crowd would react- seriously, how would it be possible for him to not know that? Like I wrote yesterday, he could use that segment of the broadcast as a campaign ad, and an effective one.
Was Trump the first to be uncivil? or was it his way of counter-punching the Hillary apologists and MSM aka Dems who went uncivil first by nitpicking at every little thing he said and did?
So, that is why I recommend option one- the left really does help Trump with their incivility, and I want to encourage them to continue- they are far worse than Trump or any of his supporters.
We — Democrats, liberals, progressives, the resistance... are supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For [the other side], the cruelty is the point. For us, kindness matters. When they go low, we go high.
My default assumption is "everybody does it" or "anybody would do it in similar circumstances." Of course that's not always true - not by a long shot. But you have to prove it's not true. Rather than assume that you are better and more caring and decent than other people, you have to provide evidence.
Or maybe better, just don't make that assertion. Try to talk about politics without claiming any special righteousness for oneself and one's faction. If you really are more virtuous, that will come out in what you say without making the claim oneself. Otherwise, political writing becomes narcissistic and self-serving.
Has anybody read any of her books? I think they were what some people derogatorily call "chick lit," thick novels with embossed covers that women buy at airports to have something to do on the plane or on the beach, plenty of references to fashion labels and Sex and the City.
But Bad Man Orange...and so are his Deplorables. They are all like those dirty Hong Kong citizens carrying silly American Flags while singing The Star Spangled Banner and the Hallelujah Chorus.
Don't they know who owns the Rogue CIA and its stores of weapons at its secret bases all over the world? And Trump laughs, while whistling The Marine Corps Hymn.
“For the other side cruelty is the point”
Such people cannot be reasoned with.
Most human beings are tolerably civil. The twitterati are not.
The article is civility bullshit because they are pretending that they have been civil, while calling Trump a Traitor, a Racist, a Nazi and White Supremacist and a Russian Stooge.
Color judgments, liberal license, and politically congruent. #HateLovesAbortion
Michelle Obama's speechwriters gave her a clever line in a speech - "when they go low, we go high"- but it wasn't true then and it never has been true. But it's funny how tightly Democrats hold on to that line.
Trump went to that game because he knew how the crowd would react-
Of course. He wanted non-political people to see the far left expressing their priorities the day he announced killing the head of ISIS.
Mission Accomplished.
He was booed in DC because the locals read that morning that he killed an austere religious scholar.
The idea that anti-Trumpers have been civil for the last three years and are now having to decide whether to stay civil is breathtaking in its cluelessness.
What everyone said, except the one lefty troll.
But here's the thing: what seems obvious to all of us -- the lack of moral introspection, the casual vilification of millions of people, the baseless air of moral superiority, the easy tu-quoque rejoinder, their persistent lack of kindness -- does not occur to them. In my experience, online but especially in person, progs are firmly, thoroughly, totally ensconced in their bubble. It's a big one, of course. Being prog means never having to deal with any basic conservative objection. And of course that's one reason Trump rankles: not only is Orange Man Bad, but it affronts them that he speaks up and that they have to reply at all.
Oh yeah, the civility of the left,
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/10/man-arrested-after-spitting-on-trump-supporter-at-restaurant-physically-assaulting-him-over-maga-hat/
"Maybe we can take a stand and do what’s necessary without discounting the cost; go low when it’s required without reveling in the other side’s pain,..."
Required. Without reveling. Bull. It seems to take precious little to "require" going low, or that it's done reluctantly out of necessity.
Howard said...
"It's not what Trump says it's the way his supporters swallow all of his bullcrap whole."
It must be terrible to not be in on the joke.
"We’re supposed to be the party of the downtrodden and the less fortunate... For us, kindness matters. When they go low, we go high."
Let's have a contest. Find any statement more lacking in self-awareness than this one.
"I would hazard a guess that he doesn't give a flying fuck.
To me, his most endearing trait.
I am no longer civil, nice or cordial to leftist morons. My husband thinks I'm taking it too far but I hate them all with the intensity of one thousand suns. I try to ignore them but if they oeersist, I have made them cry (women and men) or leave and we never hear from them again. Win win!
Some boo, some cheer, some wield scalpels.
I, for one, am not offended by incivility in our political discourse. To the extent it is direct and honest I encourage it.
The concept that the left has been civil before Trump is so laughable that to claim such a thing is a complete loss of all credibility.
Megthered! Tell us more!!! Tell us how you made people cry!
:-) <3 <3 <3 <3
This author, who states, "When they go low, we go high" has the following articles on her website:
"How do I explain Kavanaugh to my daughters?"
"The patriarchy will have always have its revenge"
"The flagrant sexual hypocrisy of conservative men"
"The men who never have to grow up"
She's simply trying to justify her emotions toward Trump-that she is better than those who reflexively boo. Just like those who fly and weep for the planet they know they are killing
are better than those who fly and don't care, and maybe even better than those who don't fly at all.
Isn't flying to combat global warming like f*cking for virginity?
Not a single person as yet commented on the worst part of her column?
It's this: "When you’re confronted with evil...". Tell you what, you worthless bint--let's just have the civil war and get it over with.
DC is a company town and the company is in the business of more government and more regulation. That a stadium in the company town filled by company workers booed Trump reminds me why I reluctantly voted for him in 2016 and will enthusiastically vote for him in 2020. I would start having my doubts if the DC parasites didn't boo Trump. If I could make a suggestion to Trump it would be to move almost all of the agencies and departments outside of DC and relocate them to small, deplorable, bum fuck towns throughout the country. Why even those towns have the up to date marvels of electricity and telephones. I even heard that they have internet service. Plus the cost of living is much, much lower than DC so their salaries can be reduced while the company workers will still have the same purchasing power.
I have no problem with any President being booed. In fact, at some point every President should be booed. You won't be arrested. You won't be impacted. I will say this though. I never thought I would see a President like Donald J Trump in my lifetime. I am diggin' this guy, Donald J. MAGA.
Kirk Parker said...
Not a single person as yet commented on the worst part of her column?
It's this: "When you’re confronted with evil...". Tell you what, you worthless bint--let's just have the civil war and get it over with.
10/29/19, 10:52 PMWe, the evil deplorables, tend to see this as childish hyperbole, but we don’t ignore it. it is a shame that so many simpletons on the left take this as a fact, which must generate severe cognitive dissonance. Besides, we have the guns.
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