Some amazing Trump rhetoric.
He's amused by his power and thinks we can be amused too. Like it's a movie. Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz — "The Great and Powerful Oz knows why you have come."
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१६२ टिप्पण्या:
Yep, yet those that usually go nuts will go nuts over this as well..
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
Fuck the Kurds
He's obliterated economies before? Who does he think he is, George Soros?
"In my great an unmatched wisdom"
He's toying with us.
Cue the flying monkeys!
Lefties used to hate war.
Blogger Howard said..."Fuck the Kurds"
For heaven's sakes, why?
Obviously, he's joking. You know he was laughing while he typed, but so far all the criticism I've seen is from people who don't get the joke.
Nevertheless, it's not the sort of thing a president should be tweeting. So the critics are right, even if they are dickheads.
Play nice. I'll check in later. Trump the fatherly figure.
Sounds like he is in a great mood. As if something is going to happen, like Christmas. And he will be finally vindicated before all his many, many enemies.
The tweet is not one of his best, but so what? In general, his tweets are an effective way to bypass the media fog and communicate directly with the people.
On substance, the question is, What is the US to do if Turkey goes after the Kurds in Syria?
That is a hard question.
Ideally, we would try every diplomatic angle to dissuade the Turks from proceeding. Ideally, if it were a matter of war, Congress would pass a Declaration of War, before intervening.
Yes, the Kurds are generally our allies in the region. But, most US citizens are tired of US military interventions in that Middle East. It would be good to approach this issue with caution -- not tweets by the Prez, nor inflammatory tweets by Hillary Clinton and her idiot colleagues yapping about "betrayal", seeking to gin up war.
It sounds like he is quoting some Middle East would-be potentate. Did Erdogan say something like this? Osama? Obama?
Scarecrow: "I've come to get a brain."
The Trump of OZ: "I have a very good brain."
Scarecrow: Where is it?
The Trump of Oz: "I keep it tied behind my back to make things fair. I got it from Limbaugh".
Sounds odd. He has to be trolling.
That there is some world-class face-spending.
It's more fun than the standard State Department boilerplate, "We condemn the rhetoric from the leadership of Turkey and urge them to change course" or whatever.
More direct = more likely to get results.
Eek. I agree with Howard. Trump is wrong on the *substance* here. We should be standing by the Kurds.
Wow, I'm a Trump fan (to my own astonishment at times...) and I enjoy his hyperbole... But this is kind of off the charts weird rhetoric. Isn't it, really?
I'm left shaking my head here. I'll vote for the guy again. I'm delighted with his results for the most part, but this is tough to defend as being anything but bonkers! Still and all, he's the one who got elected, not me. So what the F do I know?
well the sanctions were pretty devastating, but are we going to war with turkey, not with a token force,
Kuck the Furds. They're used to it, and this is just one band among many Kurdish factions-- anyone who asserts confidently what "The Kurds" want is smoking something.
Narr
Hash, probably
I hope Trump rethinks this, it's a BAD move.
He is blowing up the whistle-blowers. Why let them leak? Put it out there now!
I don't like the idea of abandoning the Kurds, but if they could survive Saddam's Iraq, they should be OK now. I assume we will continue to give them some assistance that will allow them to survive as they always have.
He really, truly wants to be impeached. That should worry a lot of Democrats. (Republicans too. I can imagine the scenario where Trump wins reelection in 2020 and loses control of the Senate. Trump has never looked at a bridge and not considered burning it.)
It's a mess over there no matter what we do. But yeah - would like to save the Kurds. Those poor people get it from all sides.
That's our President Trump!
I'm a fan of the Iraqi Kurds, but it is my understanding that the Turkish Kurds have long organized themselves under Communist flags. If so, fuck 'em. If there exists non-Communist Kurds in Turkey, we should aid them and only them.
Trump trolls Trump trolling the Turks.
The Kurds must feel safe. Interestingly, so must the Turks...
Another win-win from the stable genius.
When everyone calms down we can have an interesting discussion about what our role should be in the Middle East.
Are we part of the Forever War? Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld had a vision of our having a base in Iraq with 30,000-50,000 troops (forever? we have been in Europe since 1945) to help maintain good behavior by the locals. Obama didn't like that, so he made sure our troops left Iraq, and then he sent them to Afghanistan for a little while, but only for a little while. Trump is trying to reset the game board telling the players they are going to have to figure out how to live there, and we'll drop by if we have to to blow up some bad guys.
I am skeptical, but everyone gets a shot.
Occassionally The Donald is The Mouth That Roared. You have to take some of the bad to get the good.
As for the Kurds---they are one of those unfortunate ethnic groups (there are others) who find that their ancient homeland crosses several different modern national borders. Bleach Bit and Hammers is correct that the Kurds get diddled from every direction.
Fake News will totally flip out over this tweet. And the Wizard was a tiny guy who had duped everyone in Oz.
That neighborhood is infested with assholes. It's hard to mediate disputes between crack addicts as to who deserves possession of the crack pipe.....I don't think Trump for all his inflated rhetoric has truly made a wrong move in foreign policy, but God help him when he does.
It's self-deprecating humor. He means the threat though.
Translating into other languages is going to be hard, as the style of humor will not be understood. So Americans hear one thing and the world another.
The world is to be made unsure about Trump's stability. Americans chuckle.
What is the problem with ending one of the endless wars.
By the way the Kurds did not fight for us. They fought for themselves in order to nation build their own state.
A good rule of thumb is to listen to the CIA and Lindsey Graham and Meghan McCain and Lynne Cheney and the neocons....and do exactly the opposite because they are wrong. Every time.
Maybe they can gin up some weapons of mass destruction or rape rooms or the Turks urging off some kids dreadlocks. That only gut to convince us that we need more Americans to die in another quagmire.
Hey Libtards and Neocons......America First.
it's more complicated then that,
https://libertyunyielding.com/2019/10/07/quicklook-trumps-statement-on-turkey-and-the-kurdish-safe-zone-in-syria/
graham along with McCain, pushed for 500 million, for Syrian rebels, that would either not fight or switch sides,
The world is to be made unsure about Trump's stability. Americans chuckle.
I told him we already got one. Cue French Gigglers...
Sounds like he is in a great mood.
He's seen Horowitz's report.
‘It’s a trap!!’
"And now, the great seer, soothsayer, and sage, Carnac the Magnificent." After Carnac entered and stumbled, Ed would continue as follows:
I hold in my hand the envelopes. As a child of four can plainly see, these envelopes have been hermetically sealed. They've been kept in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnalls' porch since noon today. No one knows the contents of these envelopes – but you, in your mystical and borderline divine way, will ascertain the answers having never before heard the questions.
1/3 of the world has no sense of humor. These are women and democrats.
JohnAnnArbor said...
It's more fun than the standard State Department boilerplate, "We condemn the rhetoric from the leadership of Turkey and urge them to change course" or whatever.
More direct = more likely to get results.
You'll notice that Erdogan speaks menacingly towards the US and anyone else in his way, and doesn't mince words. This is a few stages removed from "Cross my hawse and I'll rip off your head and shit down your neck," but I don't feel that we have to play patty-fingers with Mr. Ottoman Slap.
Besides, Erdogan may be too stupid to understand Foggy Bottom language. This should reach him. It's a question of whether you communicate to be understood, like PDT does, or communicate to be misunderstood, like Althouse does.
Ken B said...
Eek. I agree with Howard. Trump is wrong on the *substance* here. We should be standing by the Kurds.
What part of "if Turkey does anything that I ... consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey" do you not understand? Or fear Erdogan will not understand?
You think they don't know those limits? Well, now we've narrowed down the problem, haven't we? If any DoS types have any ideas what we should be shooting for, NOW perhaps a demarche or something is appropriate.
Oh, the DoS that wouldn't issue the Ukranians a visa? THAT DoS? Gee, how do you not rely on a gang (and I do mean gang) like that?
President Trump is handling it. If the Deep State would be ever so kind as not to screw it up for him, that would be great.
What is anyone worried about?
Ken B: "Eek. I agree with Howard. Trump is wrong on the *substance* here. We should be standing by the Kurds."
Which means what, precisely?
What specifically is the US to do if the Turks start large scale crackdowns against the Kurds?
Don't hold back now. Give us the benefit of the wisdom of the establishment types! We deplorables need assistance in understanding the deep and nuanced thinking of our betters!
What, specifically are we to do?
Trump has already shown the world that his first go to weapon is the most effective one without putting US troops in the middle of no-win situations: economic warfare.
Economic warfare is what has the Chinese rattled (along with Trump coordinating with other Asian nations to drain supply chains out of China and giving US firms other options instead of having to kowtow to the ChiComs) as well as Iran.
It's what Trump is using to threaten Merkel's Germany and NATO deadbeats by beginning the long process of shifting Euro-based US forces out of nations that hate us and treat us like their piggy banks and to nations that literally do love the US and support our international goals, like Poland.
Why should our boys die for these sand monkeys?
We can put economic screws to Turkey like we did with Iran.
If it was up to Lady Graham and Meghan McCain we would already be at war with Iran.
Our wonderful President is ending the domination of the war mongers. God bless him.
tim maguire said...10/7/19, 1:58 PM
"....Nevertheless, it's not the sort of thing a president should be tweeting....?" Why because you are the expert on what President's "should" or "shouldn't" do? That's the beauty of Trump he's toying with 'noodles' like you and it's working.
Eddie—interesting thought. I look forward to seeng Comey frogmarched off to jail, but I am not counting on it.
He does make it awfully hard to support him. I know he doesn't drink but sometimes I wonder what gets into him. Maybe he's just trying to get Ukraine off the front pages for a day or two. Heh, front pages, now I sound like Biden talking about record players. Getting old.
Trump is the White Obama.
"Foolish beyond belief: In Syria, Trump just betrayed our allies and helped our enemies":
The United States military presence in northern Syria, that which Trump is now ending, is not the war-fighting presence that Trump suggests. It is a peacekeeping presence designed to constrain the Islamic State's rebirth, to deter Turkey's slaughter of the Kurds and Bashar Assad's slaughter of the Sunni Arab tribes. Trump says this withdrawal will allow the Kurds and Turkey to "figure the situation out."
What an idiotic comment. The only thing that will be figured out is Erdoğan's sated bloodlust for Kurdish bodies. I do not exaggerate here. The Turkish military and Erdoğan's Islamic-nationalist base despise the Kurds. They will make few distinctions between the PKK terrorist group (an issue the Turks have a legitimate gripe about) and other sub-militias that have avoided terrorism against Turkey. They will make few distinctions between civilians and fighters. They will have fun. Erdoğan's bloodlust will only be strengthened by his domestic interest in throwing literal bones to the Turkish far-right.
This is a disgrace made worse for the fact that the U.S. clearly owes the Kurds our loyalty.
We relied upon the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces and other Kurdish militias in order to substantially degrade ISIS. Yes, Western special operations played a crucial role in this effort. But the Kurds took the brunt of the casualties. And the Kurds kept fighting alongside us even after their northern heartlands had been retaken. Their tenacious courage saved American lives by denying ISIS the space and time to plot attacks against Western homelands. Plots that remain real.
"Foolish beyond belief: In Syria, Trump just betrayed our allies and helped our enemies":
The United States military presence in northern Syria, that which Trump is now ending, is not the war-fighting presence that Trump suggests. It is a peacekeeping presence designed to constrain the Islamic State's rebirth, to deter Turkey's slaughter of the Kurds and Bashar Assad's slaughter of the Sunni Arab tribes. Trump says this withdrawal will allow the Kurds and Turkey to "figure the situation out."
What an idiotic comment. The only thing that will be figured out is Erdoğan's sated bloodlust for Kurdish bodies. I do not exaggerate here. The Turkish military and Erdoğan's Islamic-nationalist base despise the Kurds. They will make few distinctions between the PKK terrorist group (an issue the Turks have a legitimate gripe about) and other sub-militias that have avoided terrorism against Turkey. They will make few distinctions between civilians and fighters. They will have fun. Erdoğan's bloodlust will only be strengthened by his domestic interest in throwing literal bones to the Turkish far-right.
This is a disgrace made worse for the fact that the U.S. clearly owes the Kurds our loyalty.
We relied upon the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces and other Kurdish militias in order to substantially degrade ISIS. Yes, Western special operations played a crucial role in this effort. But the Kurds took the brunt of the casualties. And the Kurds kept fighting alongside us even after their northern heartlands had been retaken. Their tenacious courage saved American lives by denying ISIS the space and time to plot attacks against Western homelands. Plots that remain real.
I've always believed Shut up or we'll give you something to cry about diplomacy had its merits.
With respect to that economic pressure: China Pulls Out of Giant Iranian Gas Project: Exit follows broader Chinese pullback from Islamic Republic amid U.S. pressure.
Sacto_Dave: "He does make it awfully hard to support him."
If you find it "awfully hard" to support Trump at this stage of the game with all we've seen of the deep state and coup attempts and destruction of the republic from the insiders, then I don't have the foggiest idea what to tell you.
Trump is firing all cannons at all lefty/LLR-lefty/deep state targets every single day because they are firing lies at him at a velocity never before seen and Trump understands the existential threat he is under from these hacks.
But yeah, I guess Trump can be a brusque sometime. My heavens. Well I never! I just can't even!
Hillary is now attacking Trump for pulling out of Syria, She's edging closer.
He's not amused by his power, he's nuts.
Ah Drago, there you go again, pretending to be a deplorable. You know who is a *real* deplorable? Nikki Haley. She agrees with me. The Kurds are our allies. Erdogan is not. So do your song and dance for her.
Oh, I forgot. You asked for wisdom. “Ignore Drago.”
Trump has been very effective to this point in leveraging American economic power. Some day it won't work, but I don't think Syria and Turkey will be the point where it fails.
Comments on these creatively obscure foreign policy decisions are always unintentionally hilarious. Bloggers, Radio and TV talk show hosts, and internet lay-about, all suddenly become *experts* on Syria, the Kurds, Turkey, and US relations with all three. Who cares about all those complex geo-political aspects of Trump's decision? They know better -despite having - oh - 10% of the information that Trump has.
The fact is, we've been in Syria defending the Kurds for what? 15 years? We can't stay there forever, and as Trump noted we're 7,000 miles away. But I'm sure all our armchair strategists - who've googled "Kurds Syria" - disagree.
BTW, if Lindsey graham is getting hysterical, then Trump knows he made the right call.
Do the "pompous asses" aka Never-trumpers who cry over Trump's tweets *really* hate him for being 'Unpresidential' - OR - is it they don't the guts to disagree with him on policy?
That always reminds me of my favorite Wizard of oz quote:
Dorothy: Oh - you're a very bad man!
Wizard: Oh, no, my dear. I - I'm a very good man. I'm just a very bad Wizard.
If anyone doesn't see his self-parody in this he/she is too naive for words. Does the Left really 'not get' Trump or do they choose to be disingenuous?
What act of Congress authorized the U.S. to have troops in Syria in the first place? You can't hand the President the powers of a dictator and then complain when he uses them in a way of which you disapprove.
Mike
What exactly is the difference between how Trump said this and the typical "blah blah all options are on the table, wouldn't be prudent" pussy way of saying it, except that the pussy (Presidential) wording actually sounds less serious. The message is clear, instead of muddled, ambiguous word salad. Historically, what great leadership was marked by that pussy-talk crap. Certainly some of the worst shared Trumps forceful style, but so did the great leaders of the past. Reagan, FDR, TR, Churchill, etc often used very forceful and threatening language, which later was usually heralded, but I bet they got the same shit about it at the time. Reagan sure did.
What act of Congress authorized the U.S. to have troops in Syria in the first place? You can't hand the President the powers of a dictator and then complain when he uses them in a way of which you disapprove.
Mike
Clutching your pearls is a very ineffective defense against an AK-47.
At least he didn't mention a "Red line in the sand".
He'd get a lot less flak and some kudos if he included: "Peace be upon him." and "Death to America."
"Maybe he's just trying to get Ukraine off the front pages for a day or two. “
Why would he want that? The more the press discredits itself with their transparent lies and obvious and malignant bias, the more their teeth rot away.
ARM just assured me on another thread that Trump supporters are not having any fun and are getting irritable. More projection! This guy is the greatest POTUS of all time, and I am including George Washington.
Well certainly of modern times. Trump, Reagan, FDR (Only because we won that war we could easily have lost)
It is a remarkable tweet, but we will see what happens next.
I do think it is a very dangerous development that Iran, Turkey, and Russia all are now in Syria and rubbing up against each other. I suspect the friendliness may not last much longer.
The Kurds may face a situation like the Armenians in the 1920's; not just a "crackdown."
What is best, Conan?
This Trump Statement is comedy gold! Abe Lincoln would appreciate it, but not Percy Dovetonsils Romney!
I'm going to wait until there is some actual information to talk about.
Sort of sounds like one of Rush Limbaugh's facetious riffs.
'Talent on loan from god.'
What if the Europeans decide to send in some troops. And then Trump decides to be a good guy and match them.
Now the task is only 50% ours at the cost of a little bluster and negotiation, Trump's favorite hobby.
Hasn't anyone else besides me played poker?
Wish he could switch his tweeter megaphone off when appropriate (like now). But I think he is 100% right on content. Basta! with endless war. Basta! With limitless Lockheed and Boeing weapon packages poured down middle east ratholes. And haven't we learned the last 3 years to wait at least 48 hours to see what any of this means? I seriously doubt the Kurds are being "abandoned" and that moving back 9 miles from their border of Turkey is up there with Chamberlain capitulating at Munich. Get a grip.
Calm down.
The comments on Twitter about this tweet manifest the master's trolling and Progressive anxiety splendidly. Great stuff.
"Sounds odd. He has to be trolling."
The president truly is a master troller, and all those clueless lefties are biting. Like Sen. "Moscow" Mitch McConnell (D-KY), and Sen. Lindsey "Virginia" Graham (D-SC), who have blasted off in one of their typical weak-kneed, anti-Trump, tizzies.
Also, the obtuse leftist Senators Rob "The Slob" Portman (D-OH), Ben "Very" Sasse (D-NB), and Mitt "Bigfoot" Romney (D-UT), all excoriated President Donald "Humpty" Trump for his obvious joking in asking China, Ukraine, Australia, and Eswatini to gin up some evidence of Joe Biden's frequent indulgence in necrophilia, well-known so far only in Republican circles.
But, never worry. Trump has nothing to fear as long as he maintains his rock-solid support among the WPP Senate majority.
Trump is funny, but there's a time and place for everything. The statement was outrageous, certainly not "presidential", but that term has little luster for many of us after enduring Obama's antics for eight years.
The usual idiots will freak out and beclown themselves further. Look for a "concerned" statement from a worried-looking Mitt Romney by and by.
I expect net-net no great harm done to the US, but this was not worth the risk that it might have negative consequences. Just the latest example of a Trump own-goal.
Regarding the wretched Kurds, I hope it is not as bad as it appears. Hopefully they got a heads-up, at least. They should never have been given (if they were) any expectation of an open-ended American commitment. Those who may have done so (prior to the Trump administration) were irresponsible if that was what happened. On the other hand, long term there's no win for us in that part of the world, so at some point we have to cut them all loose. While watching carefully from a safe distance.
Never a dull moment in this Administration.
The last time I was in the region, more than 50 years ago, the Turks were trying to counter the Kurds in the eastern provinces. They're still in about the same places now. And that's in Turkey itself. Going after the Kurds in Syria doesn't sound like a really good idea.
The 10,000 ISIS prisoners are the issue. Trump just told the Fourth Reich to deal with it or watch the NATO member Turkey do it the Turk way, but the Trump just walked away from NATO's refusal to do a deal our way. He awaits their response.
In the meantime,our Military Industrial Complex is screaming that Trump is eliminating their jobs.
Maybe Trump should draw a red line instead.
Maybe this is Trump's channeling of “Perdicaris Alive or Raisuli Dead” meme
Ken B said...
Ah Drago, there you go again, pretending to be a deplorable. You know who is a *real* deplorable? Nikki Haley. She agrees with me. The Kurds are our allies. Erdogan is not. So do your song and dance for her.
Oh, I forgot. You asked for wisdom. “Ignore Drago.”
I expect Ken B to be enlisting in the armed forces and requesting to be in the units sent to Syria. Sign your kids up too if you have any. Howard can go enlist his grand kids too.
Nikki Haley and all her family members will be signing up too amrite?
Having been in Iraq and Afghanistan personally I can tell you the US armed forces are not the right tool for this job.
Trump is using the economic power of the United States to protect the Kurds. It is a much better tool for this.
Why assume Kurds will be defeated - harassed or suppressed or oppressed?
If PKK is communist Putin got their back.
Ken B: "Ah Drago, there you go again, pretending to be a deplorable. You know who is a *real* deplorable? Nikki Haley. She agrees with me. The Kurds are our allies. Erdogan is not. So do your song and dance for her."
Perhaps you didn't understand the question. Not surprising really.
If you recall, I asked you what your preferred course of action would be in the case of Erdogan cracking down further on the Kurds.
I specifically referenced Trump's preference for economic weapons of choice as opposed to constantly putting US troops into the middle of tribal middle east conflicts that have existed for thousands of years.
You, of course, neglected to mention what you would be willing to do and how far you would be willing to go to achieve.....something. Always undefined. Always open ended. Never with an objective in mind.
We have to support the Kurds!!!
How?
....(silence)...........
I love it when leftists like bbkingfish take the side of the neocons just a few short years after screaming No Blood for Oil!!!
portman and Johnson, were the ones tricked into calling for shokin's dismissal, the latter did cause f chuck some agita, romney well we know where he lies at all times, and sasse, almost equally tedious,
Wasn't Trump involved with WWE? In World Wrestling Entertainment parlance (understood by Erdogan and dictators everywhere, and Islamic supremacists in particular), Trump's tweet to Erdogan is a blatant warning for a smackdown. File this under Trump's personal diplomacy and street smarts. Turns out when you speak to a thug on that thug's level he is not offended. Thugs enjoy the game.
It's like going to a market in some cultures and haggling -- if you don't do it they don't respect you.
so they are closing airspace in the northwest sector of Syria,
If I had to guess what is going on, negotiation would have been going in circles. The Kurds want a state, Turkey doesn't want the Kurds to have a state, and I expect nobody was willing to compromise on anything. AFAICT, the American troops were few, fighting ISIS no longer requires US air and artillery support, and there were some troops operating as a trip wire. Trump probably looked at the cards and decided there was no winning move and it was time to get out of the game.
This is all speculation, of course. I'm usually wrong about things when I have to guess. So we will see.
calling @Andrew
--we could use your Trump Tweet expertise here!
this sweet tweet will be kicked around for about a week--
The deal with Turkey, and their responsibility is now hopelessly in the world-wide spotlight due to the over-the-top nature of the tweet, rather than becoming a forgotten and disregarded agreement.
We arent going back to enforce the deal militarily but obviously economically.
Perhaps the Kurds are safe if what The Trump considers "off limits" is messing with them or in general taking advantage of the pull-out.
cant be any worse than an 0_bama Red Line
I’m am in favor of giving the Kurds things to blow up those that both they and we consider “ bad guys.” But as a 7+ year veteran of the Vietnam War I am hard pressed to believe that there is any faction anywhere in the mid-east that is worth even one young American life.
fwiw:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-administration-appears-to-reverse-syria-decision-following-backlash/ar-AAIqIMv?ocid=spartandhp
Globalization is exporting Chinese authoritarianism rather than American democracy.
The Kurds are, as usual, trying to play the U.S. They are more than capable of defending themselves against the Turks. In the meantime they have been ceaselessly conducting military operations against the Christian Assyrians and Yazidis and, well, anyone who stands in their way. And it needs be said that the Kurdish leadership is more corrupt by than the Palestinian leadership, even when Arafat was at the helm. They do, however, have a highly competent public relations arm that has convinced well-meaning Americans that they are the good guys in the Middle East. They are not. I have written and published articles on this topic, and because of that I am persona non grata in the Kurdish controlled region. But I don't care, because I have cast my lot with the Assyrians.
Not sure why anyone should be surprised. This is Trump's typical MO: blather, bluster, and then do nothing.
Looking at his statement again, I see that he never spells out for Erdogan exactly what it would take to trigger the US setting out to wreck Turkey's economy. So Erdogan has no idea what he can get away with and what he can't. You know, there is a great deal of wisdom in that.
Regarding the wretched Kurds....
The Kurds are indeed a wretched lot, but probably not in the sense you meant in your use of the term. It not well-known, but should be, that the Kurds were chiefly responsible for more than 1 million Christian Anatolian Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks during the First World War. While Turkish officers directed and oversaw their efforts, Kurdish tribesmen from the mountains along the line of march taken by the hapless Christians descended in predatory packs on their victims and butchered them -- men, women, children, and infants -- by the hundreds of thousands. The Kurds did the wet work while the Turks watched, and it must be said that the Kurds greatly relished the killing, which they undertook against little resistance because the Turks had previously succeeded in disarming the Christians. It was only on the mountain of Musa Dagh on the Mediterranean coast in 1915 that a large number of Armenians -- who had refused to allow themselves to be disarmed -- successfully withstood the genocidal onslaught until they were rescued by Allied naval forces 40 days after the siege began.
Nor have the Kurds substantially abated their hostility toward ME Christians, they have only been slyer about it. The ranks of ISIS were well-stocked with Kurdish fighters intent on finishing off the Assyrian population currently resident, but under dire and constant threat of elimination, in Iraq's Assyria Nineveh.
Full disclosure: I am working with the Assyrians of Iraq and the American-Assyrian diaspora to hold on to their ancestral homeland and create an autonomous Assyrian entity in a federated Iraqi state. My boss recently return from the region, where he has served as a military advisor to Assyrian defense forces.
Shifting Kurdish protection from military to economic could be a win-win for President Trump
https://noqreport.com/2019/10/07/shifting-kurdish-protection-military-economy-win-win-president-trump/
@rcocean:
Who cares about all those complex geo-political aspects of Trump's decision? They know better -despite having - oh - 10% of the information that Trump has.
The same exact thing could be said of Obama's decisions or Bush's before him or Clinton before him. So what? American citizens should be clued into what is being done abroad in their name and should have opinions on the matter. If we are going to gush over members of the military in public we should at least pay them the courtesy of knowing where and why they're being sent abroad to die.
My favorite Kurd is Saladin, damned effective. His Ayyubid "Sultancy" included Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen, so he has a lot to atone for. A political genius too, knew the right throats to slit. Perhaps would have been a good Manhattan real estate Sultan. His masterwork was the battle of the Horns of Hattin. Crusader armies could not innovate under fire.
I wonder if he is trolling when he pulled us out of open skies treaty which allowed flights over Russia, another win for Putin.?
The problem with this decision is that it does not go nearly far enough. We should completely withdraw troops from Syria, as Trump indicated he wanted to do earlier this year, but Trump gives no timetable for Syria exit; wants to protect Kurds
"Sounds odd. He has to be trolling"
to quote drago -- LOLOL
is that an excuse or an explanation or a justification? Nations and thousands of lives hang in the balance and POTUS thinks it is a good spot for trolling ....
Let's all sleep well tonight knowing with all our heart that our stable genius knows what the fuck he's doing.
Prof. Althouse is toying with us by not clearing us from 5 to 8 CDT. We are part of a social experiment. Why did I not get picked for the social experiment in the Sybil Sheppard college movie.
Turkey – for better or worse – is our NATO ally, with 40 (I think) American nukes in residence within their borders. We are bound by treaty to defend them, if they are attacked.
roesch/voltaire said...
I wonder if he is trolling when he pulled us out of open skies treaty
R/V still thinks Putin like fracking. The "Open skies" treaty was before satellites, you idiot.
No way. He's going to walk this back. He hasn't delivered on a single G*d damn promise.
My initial reaction, like all others of good habit or taste or breeding or education or convenience, is that, while there's a self-deprecating joke in acknowledging how he's portrayed by all aforementioned as an idiot, well, president's shouldn't do that. In terms of Trump genius, though, Erdogan DOES do that. He says the most remarkably provocative things quite regularly, expounding on Turkish and his own greatness and on the folly of his opponents. Actually, they all do, except historically our dignified, prim leaders. Why let Erdogan have all the fun? I have not doubt, upon only a moment's reflection, that Erdogan now sees that Trump can do Erdogan, and Trump is unlike any American he's ever dealt with previously.
I would guess that many in the past have thought Trump full of bluster, blather, and such. And I think most have been disabused. If you are at 60-40, you win.
A timetable telegraphs your intentions, akin to tipping your pitches during the playoffs. This is a negotiation, and Trump's announcement a negotiating ploy. It's not facts on the ground or a plan or the kind of move you seem to acknowledge as representing motion in geopolitics. Nobody signed anything.
Ah Drago, mulling preferred actions for when the horse has bolted. I would close the barn door first.
Roughcoat: I was not aware of that history, as you surmised, but I have few illusions about any of the actors in that region. I have no problem believing what you wrote.
Yet I stand by my earlier statement that we would be best to cut them loose. And the rest of the lot in that region as well. (While watching them carefully, etc.)
With the exception of the Israelis. Who have their own agenda, of course, which is not always our agenda, but who are at least civilized human beings. (But who need to be watched carefully.)
Farmer: Bluster and do nothing?
WTF?
He built the wall. He made Mexico pay for it.
He repealed Obamacare.
He got Merkel to pony up the full amount of her NATO commitment. He pulled out all the troops out of Afghanistan.
Do nothing? Are you gaslighting us??
It's very bemusing. I thought most people wanted peace in the middle east, if not elsewhere. I'm not saying this will bring peace to the region, but at least we won't be there.
Anyway, we have a long reach, both economically and militarily. We have a navy and an air force, and a lot of bombs, so we don't need boots (AKA targets) on the ground.
The Great and Powerful Trump has spoken!
RAND PAUL: Trump's Syria critics wrong, 'neocon war caucus' wants conflicts
Hillary is part of the "War Caucus"
Ken B: "Ah Drago, mulling preferred actions for when the horse has bolted. I would close the barn door first."
What does that even mean? You have no idea. Nor will you ever have an idea. In fact, no one who recommends we stay there in force can articulate any specific goals.
So whats left? Snark, and snark alone. I'm sure thats quite comforting to those who tote the weapons.
And where are our "betters", the Europeans?
Nowhere.
But thats cool with Ken B! He cant explain why of course.
He lacks the self-awareness to tell you to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Uhr: "Let's all sleep well tonight knowing with all our heart that our stable genius knows what the fuck he's doing."
Little Stevie Uhr is very very upset that the US has not launched half a dozen new wars.
He and Ken B should hang out and commiserate..
This is the kind of shit Erdogan says regularly. This is from 2014, when he was relatively restrained compare to today, but is particularly apt:
We’ll eradicate Twitter. I don’t care what the international community says. Everyone will witness the power of the Turkish Republic..
This is who Trump is dealing with, and I believe that Trump is explicitly pacing here with Erdogan. Trump will not be out-Erdoganed.
Farmer: "If we are going to gush over members of the military in public we should at least pay them the courtesy of knowing where and why they're being sent abroad to die."
Ouch! Steve Uhr and Ken B hardest hit.
It seemed kind of over the top until I looked at the twitter thread. Then I realized it's worth tweeting like that just to yank all those chains.
There are some old people (my age and older) who would surely be a disappointment to their younger selves. Or maybe they were always that uptight and boring.
Phidippus:
I too am of the opinion that we should cut the Kurds loose. I hope I made this clear in what I wrote. My work with the Assyrians is in the nature of an independent undertaking although we have received some assistance from various government entities. The Assyrians are quite firm on the point, repeatedly made, that they do not want American military forces taking a direct action role in their struggle -- they are quite capable doing their own fighting, thank you very much. Some tough mo-fos, those guys (and girls) are.
I see //s between cuckservatives and Erdogan :
Nineveh Plains Protection Units number 5,000. What a formidable size of force. Yep, sure they'll hold their own against the Kurds, Turks and Syrians. Right.
"Let's all sleep well tonight knowing with all our heart that our stable genius knows what the fuck he's doing.”
I will. I don’t lay awake at night frustrated when my party is not in control of the White House like some people.
Erdogan appears to be, and has behaved like, what Trump's deranged fearful haters say he is.
Thank you, Roughcoat!
A perfect example of the kind of comment that keeps me coming back this blog daily.
I knew the Saladin was a Kurd but I had forgotten about the Kurd's participation in the genocide.
Turkey is an ally in name only. Erdogan's purges of the military have compromised its effectiveness as the guarantor of Turkey's secular political order, a development that raises concerns for the security of NATO's southern flank. Indeed, the notion that NATO even has a southern flank may no longer be valid. Erdogan is in cahoots with Putin and Turkey is moving toward becoming a de facto ally of Russia. Erdogan has also weaponized the refugee crisis in the Middle East by facilitating the mass migration of mainly young adult Muslims across the borders of Europe for the purpose of destabilizing and weakening the Western Alliance. His objective in doing so is to create a Turkish dominated caliphate with himself as caliph. To that end he has also provided material aid to ISIS, along with creature comforts -- there are resorts on the Aegean coast catering exclusively to ISIS fighters on R&R. As for our nukes in Turkey -- I thought those had been recently albeit quietly removed, but I may be wrong about that. Anyone here know what's going on in that regard?
Roughcoat: "As for our nukes in Turkey -- I thought those had been recently albeit quietly removed, but I may be wrong about that. Anyone here know what's going on in that regard?"
There were reports in 2017 that the nukes we kept at Incirlik were being moved and if recall correctly those weapons were being moved to Romania. I dont believe anything official has been announced which doesnt surprise me in the least.
Given Erdogan's actions during and after his hoax coup plot which he used to smash remaining dissenters a geo shift is certainly in order.
This decision is classic Trump. Betray an ally. Better still, do so on the basis of personal persuasion from a corrupt strongman, rather than any serious study of the problem or the counsel of knowledgeable advisors. This is why Jim Mattis quit and exactly what he warned of. We certainly are in good hands with this guy!
Drago
You have from the start misunderstood and misrepresented what I said. You make up a fantasy and demand I respond to your imaginings. You are the CNN of this blog.
Stephen: "This is why Jim Mattis quit and exactly what he warned of. We certainly are in good hands with this guy!"
Mattis spoke well of Trump and trashed the foreign policy moves of your "Lightbringer" obama.
Stephen is just another lying lefty attempting to put his pretend Jedi mind tricks to work.
Hey, you know what Trump really needs to be successful? Hiring a failed screenwriter whose brother runs a networks bews division to head up major foreign policy issues.
I swear these idiot lefties like Stephen really do believe history began 15 minutes ago.
Thanks for your input "Red Line" boy....
@Ken B:
WTF?
I was speaking primarily on the foreign policy front, but I'll take up your challenge.
He built the wall. He made Mexico pay for it.
He didn't build the wall, and Mexico has not paid for it. Trump has replaced some dilapidated and less functional border barriers with the wall (a good thing!) by using DOD funds. But that is still only a small fraction of the border wall.
He repealed Obamacare
Obamacare has not been repealed. The only thing that was done at the legislative level was to reduce the penalty for not buying health insurance to zero.
He got Merkel to pony up the full amount of her NATO commitment.
"Germany, which had already announced that it will fall significantly short of NATO’s defense spending goals, annoying the United States, risks provoking Washington further by failing to reach even its own slimmed-down target."
-German Defense Spending Is Falling Even Shorter. The U.S. Isn’t Happy., 19 Mar 2019
He pulled out all the troops out of Afghanistan.
That will certainly come as a surprise to Sgt. First Class Elis A. Barreto Ortiz and Sgt. First Class Jeremy W. Griffin, both of whom were killed in the country last month. Trump increased the troop presence to 14,000 in 2017. The administration's own negotiations with the Taliban would only see about 5,000 of those soldiers withdrawn over a five-month window.
Do nothing? Are you gaslighting us??
Nope, just the facts, sir.
And talk about betraying allies!! I guess we are all just going to forget what the dems did to Israel in the face of their implacable enemies pledged to the annihilation of Israel.
Whom do you think you are fooling Stephen?
And dont get me started on obamas absolute refusal to send military support to the Ukraine when obamas butt buddy and "flexibilty" amigo Putin began his annexation of the Crimea.
Stephen said...
This decision is classic Trump. Betray an ally. Better still, do so on the basis of personal persuasion from a corrupt strongman, rather than any serious study of the problem or the counsel of knowledgeable advisors. This is why Jim Mattis quit and exactly what he warned of. We certainly are in good hands with this guy!
*************
where, exactly did Mattis warn us of all this?
Will Trump ever get his due on this? He was doing Erdogan, making an Erdogan style tweet threat to Erdogan, known among other things for his tweet threats against twitter (which got him banned temporarily).
Thanks, Drago. That's my understanding too.
PresidenTROLL. PresidenTRUMP.
Trump seems to have pleased Drudge: Trump impeachment is gone. Now it's moaning about the deficit and the Turkey/mideast stuff with Trump antagonizing the neocons, which Drudge appears to enjoy.
Lol, impeachment is GONE from Drudge.
Let the Turks go in. In the end they will have to deal with ISIS, Iran, the Kurds, the Syrians, Hezbollah, a motley assembly of Arabs, the Russians and possibly the Israelis. All of that and with a bad Turkish economy and the Kurds constitute nearly 20% of Turkey's population.
Erdogan has weakened his military and weakened his economy. Getting involved further in Syria will weaken Turkey further. Trump is right. The Turks will get overextended. The Iranians are getting overextended. So are the Russians. They all are getting overextended and can't afford it. They all will hurt themselves more than we are willing to hurt them. Trump just might be more cynical, clever and strategic than he appears to be. And for all of his detractors here, especially the ones who are note going to vote for him, what would your candidate do that is different and better than what Trump is proposing?
Does anyone else see the analogy with this?
"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.[To Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati religious funeral practice of burning widows alive on her husband’s funeral pyre.]”
Who says we are abandoning the Kurds? Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t read his Tweet that way. Maybe it’s time for the Kurds to stand on their own feet. Their biggest threat is Turkey, a much larger force. They have probably [the Kurds] been poking Turkey, at the exasperation of US troops, since they can hide behind US troops.
At some point, we can’t keep fighting an insurgent war in the Middle East, doing the same thing over and over. The US has a lot of tools beyond the military. Trump for example. He chucks grenades. It maybe a dud, it maybe live. Who knows!? The point is, it stymies these aggressive forces from taking cohesive action. The us has enough might to back up any threat. With Trump, there’s a threshold at which that threat may be enacted - you never know what that threshold really is.
Creating political chaos is actually an effective weapon.
Ken B said...
He built the wall. He made Mexico pay for it.
He repealed Obamacare.
He got Merkel to pony up the full amount of her NATO commitment. He pulled out all the troops out of Afghanistan.
And 3% GDP growth. America, fuck yeah!
Between Trump and the NBA, the US couldn't look any weaker right now. Businessmen running the country is working out great.
It's amusing, but somewhat repellent to gloat about the power to destroy another economy. It's more or less the entire point of economic sanctions, though, and I don't think American policy-makers have ever quite grasped how their public statements about economic sanctions make them come off like moustache-twirling villains doing exactly what Trump is doing here.
Farmer,
You've been punked -- pretty sure Ken B meant was being facetious.
it's not the sort of thing a president should be tweeting
I think a president with a sense of humor is a good thing.
@Kirk Parker:
You've been punked -- pretty sure Ken B meant was being facetious.
Possibly, but I doubt it. It seems pretty in line with what he has said for a while. Of course, if he'd like to come clear it up for us, he's more than welcome.
p.s. On the other hand, it is a surprisingly concise list of nonsensical claims, so you may be correct
Ken B said...
He built the wall. He made Mexico pay for it.
He repealed Obamacare.
He got Merkel to pony up the full amount of her NATO commitment. He pulled out all the troops out of Afghanistan.
Eliminate the deficit in eight years. America, fuck yeah!
I don't think American policy-makers have ever quite grasped how their public statements about economic sanctions make them come off like moustache-twirling villains doing exactly what Trump is doing here.
Well-said, Balfegor. As in so many policy issues, Trump has stripped off the raiment of phony civility. Most find it jarring. I find it refreshing.
And for all of his detractors here, especially the ones who are note going to vote for him, what would your candidate do that is different and better than what Trump is proposing?
Not be Trump. Was anything else required?
we aren't doing anything of the kind, we're shutting their aircorridor into northern Syria, and we're pulling out of doha, which may be the real reason behind graham's agita,
Ken B: "Drago
You have from the start misunderstood and misrepresented what I said. You make up a fantasy and demand I respond to your imaginings. You are the CNN of this blog."
I suppose that probably really is your last possible fallback position.
Completely predictable.
yes, not what we were told,
https://twitter.com/ShidelerK/status/1181669788357156864
Allow me to translate:
Do not fuck wit me, Erdogan.
wholelottasplainin'
I view Mattis's resignation letter, written on the occasion of another ill advised Syria decision, as a warning. See here: https://media.defense.gov/2018/Dec/20/2002075156/-1/-1/1/LETTER-FROM-SECRETARY-JAMES-N-MATTIS.PDF
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