According to... “Unhealthy and Unprepared,” an estimated 71% of all young people in the U.S. between the ages of 17 and 24 do not qualify for military service. Obesity disqualifies about 31% of youth, the report specified....
Retired Lt. Gen. Samuel Ebbesen said Mission: Readiness has been warning the country about the impact of obesity on national security for nearly a decade. He said acting now to address the issue was critical to the nation’s future defense....
So those numbers — 22% of the Navy, 18% of the Air Force, 17% of the Army, 8.3% of the Marines — those are all from those who did get in, who were not among the 71% who are disqualified. They are from the 29% least fat young people, and they are subjected to military training and discipline. There really is a problem, and yet the first comment on this post is an exemplar of denial:
Probably defined as obese by having a BMI > 30. Could be fat, could be muscle, or some combination of both, but my guess is a lot of these sailors spend a lot of down time in the weight room.
Another commenter says:
These new servicemen might be tubby, but I am a BMI skeptic. They say 30 is obese on the charts. A 6'0" man who weighs 215 has a BMI of 30. That could be a bit flabbly but also could be muscular/strong. It would rarely be obese if the man is at all active (can walk 5 miles, work outside for 3 + hours, do moderate sports activities, etc.).
On the other end, the charts say if that same man lost almost 100 pounds -- 135 -- he would be "normal." The very edge of normal, but normal nonetheless. Sorry, 135 is not normal weight for a 6' man. That's stick-like. What Arnold might call a girly man whose pants have to be cinched by a rope.
BMI is fake news. It's an uneasy comparison to think about, but obesity is a bit like pornography -- I know it when I see it.
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
Probably defined as obese by having a BMI > 30. Could be fat, could be muscle, or some combination of both, but my guess is a lot of these sailors spend a lot of down time in the weight room.
Obese is a LOT more than just overweight. I know some bulked up weightlifters end up in the obese range, but these people are supposed to be working and highly able. Those obesity numbers are ridiculous. And you know they reject some applicants because they're overweight.
These new servicemen might be tubby, but I am a BMI skeptic. They say 30 is obese on the charts. A 6'0" man who weighs 215 has a BMI of 30. That could be a bit flabbly but also could be muscular/strong. It would rarely be obese if the man is at all active (can walk 5 miles, work outside for 3 + hours, do moderate sports activities, etc.).
On the other end, the charts say if that same man lost almost 100 pounds -- 135 -- he would be "normal." The very edge of normal, but normal nonetheless. Sorry, 135 is not normal weight for a 6' man. That's stick-like. What Arnold might call a girly man whose pants have to be cinched by a rope.
BMI is fake news. It's an uneasy comparison to think about, but obesity is a bit like pornography -- I know it when I see it.
The Air Force needs to build more golf courses and put in more swimming pools! (I'm former AF, and yes, that is snark.) Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't higher in the AF.
I agree with BarryS. I got out in early 1990. Later in 2007 when I went back to DoD as a civilian, I'd see perfectly normal looking men in good shape struggling to meet the weight standards. I'd joke the poor guys had to eat grass in order to keep from getting put on the program. We had officers and NCOs fail the PT test because they couldn't do "perfect" push ups - a civilian contractor would be judging the participants. Woe be to the man or woman who didn't pay proper respect to the occasional ass hole giving the test. It was undue stress on them members, most of whom were in fine shape - far better shape as a whole than we were in the 80's. Of course, there was a co-pilot in our sister squadron who had been a defensive lineman for a major college football team. He was built like a brick house and fast as sin, and had a waiver for his weight. His commander refused to honer the waiver and put him on the program. Poor guy looked like shit as he had to lose the weight. There was nothing healthy about it. His commander, as well as being a dick, was thin as a rail.
Seems likely that this tracks the combination of degree of physical exertion the typical role of each branch requires plus the amount of exercise that the typical role permits - its hard to order a 7 mile hike on a destroyer.
Shipboard personnel are no longer required to shovel coal, man the windlass or the pumps, or haul on halyards, so there's little scope for physical activity at sea.
In old age, the added weight really catches up to you.
I look slender and fit, but I've put on 40 pounds since high school. In my late 60s, my body started telling me that my frame cannot carry this added weight unless I want to accept chronic pain and disability.
I've lost half that 40 pounds and I'm on my way to dropping the remainder.
That added weight manifests itself in arthritis, rosacea, pre-diabetes and diabetes, joint pain and limited mobility (among other things).
My goal is still slightly above the published BMI standards. I'll come in at 27, which still qualifies as overweight.
I'll see how I feel at that point. If I need to, I'll drop another 20 pounds to come in under a BMI of 25.
I want to be able to continue to play on the floor with my grandkids, ride a bicycle and walk without pain.
As a submariner back in the day when we could have beards, I recall joking with my Chief that he wouldn't fit through the hatch after patrol. Most of his time was in the rack sleeping or eating.
I remember this. We had a fat LCPL who kept get shit details and remedial weight loss training (3 mile runs EVERY DAY after lunch. One day we got a new MSGT who was very wise and called bullshit on the BMI stats. He had been leading troops into combat since Nam and his personal experience with those Marines was that BMI was not a good indicator of who was fat and who wasn't. Too many "big boned" types like our LCPL were outside of the math and unjustly punished for it.
Our son is 6'4", don't know what he weighs, but the multi-national corporation he works for does annual in house health screenings. His came back as obese. He does not have anything anyone would call a dad bod. His weight is compact. If you look at him, you would underestimate his weight by 30 to 50 lbs. My nephew, his cousin competes in invitation only international, Sprint Triathlons. He has said is BMI is 28. He trains about 5 hours a day and works full time. BMI must be one of those averages based on more averages and then "adjusted" to fit a predetermined narrative.
All of you who are telling yourself you're not too fat, what is your fasting glucose number? Are you in the normal range or pre-diabetic (or diabetic)?
Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
I think there should be a second test for fat percentage available to those who get tagged as obese on weight and height alone. It's important to be accurate — fair to those who are genuinely above-average in muscle and a wake-up call to those who are relying on the easy go-to argument that BMI is bullshit and actually in trouble health-wise.
The Love of your Life; christian yelich , is 6' 2", and 196lbs That comes to a BMI of 25.2, indicating his weight is in the Overweight category for adults of his height.
Mike Moustakas (your all star 3rd baseman?) is 6 ft 0 in, and 230 lbs That comes to a BMI of 31.1 (Obese Class 1)
Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
It's almost impossible to get past the spoiled brat ranting of women my age (69) about feminism.
Most of them are so rotted out with that shit that they are barely worth talking to. Fucking them is sticking your dick in a blender.
I got one of those cool bluetooth scales that tells you way way more than you want to know about your naked body in the morning. (And all without an SI pic!)
As usual my BMI is well over 30 at 6 food and 235. But everything else is green - there is just too much bone and muscle.
The only time my BMI got under 28 was when I hit 197 ... and you could count my ribs and see my 4 pack (no idea where the other two went). That was not a sustainable weight for me and was only something I did to see how close I could get back to H/S weight AND to see if I could break a 3 hour marathon. (I could not.)
Ideal weight for me is probably 210 or so - flat stomach, old man butt sag, good angle between my shoulders and hips. And I'll be obese every year on our healthcare plan.
And, yes, @Ann, at my current weight all my blood chemistry is fine, nothing to worry about except for three college age kids and my disc golf score.
For many reasons they're the same percentages (e.g. fatness is exactly the same), the main differences are in mental health (women worse), and conduct and drugs (men worse).
And the results are based on surveys and other statistics, NOT on actual recruits showing up for induction.
Skylark's got it right about women: Money and Status! Of course, this is a generalization, and there are examples of other things like looks.
As to the rank of the services, Navy, Air Force, Army and Marines, having served in the Army, and having lived in a Navy base for 10 months, I would say that the obesity ranking relates to the quality of food.
The Navy has always been known as having the best food. This was the case for my service. The Air Force is next, then the Army and Marines. On occasion I visited several Air Force bases and their food was good, but not up to Navy standards. I never had the pleasure of enjoying Marine food, but I can only imagine....
As far as Army food goes, when I was in Vietnam sometimes the dogs wouldn't eat the food that was served. (There was a pack of dogs roaming the Phuoc Vinh base.) On those days, the care packages from home with canned food were really appreciated.
JML said... "The Air Force needs to build more golf courses and put in more swimming pools! (I'm former AF, and yes, that is snark.) Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't higher in the AF."
My father was a lifer AF fighter pilot. When he retired he had a 34 inch waist and weighed 190. When he wasn't flying all he did was play golf, which he learned in occupation Japan.
Professor, Aaron Rodgers is listed as 6'2", 225 lbs, which is a BMI of 29 so nearly obese. Next time you watch a Brewers game, look at the Brewer's catcher Yasmani Grandal. He is listed as 6'1", 235 lbs -- obese with a BMI of 31. BMI is a really bad metric for athletic people with higher amounts of muscular body weight. It's not just bulked up professional level bodybuilders and strongmen who get picked up here. For an athletic population, bodyfat percentage (which you mention above) and waist circumference are much better indicators.
There's nothing really wrong with the BMI if it is used as a rule of thumb. A person with a BMI of 30 is obese on average. It's a useful way of filtering for further analysis. The problem is when the BMI becomes the analysis, something it is poorly suited to do. Given we have a sizeable number of self-important people who do not want to think that much, it becomes our problem.
Yeah, money and status. It might not be true, but it’s a hypothesis that has been working for men since time immemorial.
"6 foot and 6 figures"
When I was young and stupid (stop that!) I believed girls when they said they just wanted a nice guy. Which put me on the "uncle" shelf - a confidant for them to pout to over how their latest Bad Boy had wrong them. My final straw was listening to the girl I was in love with explain how Bad Boy had been too rough and tore her upper labium.
But until then, I was part of their cliche. Quite often they forgot I was around and I got to hear what girls really think about men.
"6 foot and 6 figures" was a common refrain.
And no worries about me. After that girl I was madly in love with gave me that visual, I adopted the Bad Boy persona hardcore. Got more pussy the first year than I had my entire life. Hooked the woman I would marry with it, then dropped it and went back to my normal nice and sensitive side once we married.
So it all worked out for the best in the end. But I think it's why I lost so much respect women.
I recently got to see a generous sample of Army recruits, before, at a MEPs facility, and after Basic and a combat arms ATI. Some of the chicks were kind of big gals but if they made it through what was undoubtedly a grueling regimen, I don’t see how they could be considered anything but fit. All the dudes were slender. Got to hand it to the Army. In an era where everybody else is lowering their standards in an effort to be more inclusive, they’re raising their standards and being more inclusive.
AA: Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
Where did that come from? Is this one of your feminist trigger topics?
People are giving examples of when and how the BMI fails as an accurate measure (which it sometimes does), not rationalizing away their own lardiness. So why are you responding as if that's what they're all doing? (Unless you're obliquely responding to Fern pointing out that obesity rates correlate well to percentage of women in branch of service. In which case...well, they do.)
There are better measures of "you really need to drop the lard, dude" for an individual - fasting glucose (as you yourself point out), waist measurement...looking in the freakin' mirror, pinching 5 inches of fat on your abdomen...
Anyhoo, does anybody need a BMI calculation to know that they're damaging their health with excess fat? It's not as if people being "BMI deniers" is what's causing the relentless rise in overweight and obesity. Anybody who's obese already knows it, and knows it's bad for them, no matter how much "fat acceptance" crap they spout.
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
It's not, but you aren't the first to pretend otherwise. I knew a guy in ROTC that was disqualified because of his BMI. He was allowed to take an alternative displacement test where they stick him in water to determine whether the weight is fat or muscle. He was very much muscle. Besides lifting weights, he ran marathons. Yet the Army was ready to reject him for high BMI. He is still serving as a Colonel.
BMI is garbage. The military should stick with the PFT and dump the BMI.
The military should stick with the PFT and dump the BMI.
The PFT needs to be redone (and not what they've decided to go with!) but yeah, if you can meet the physical demands then we shouldn't care about a bit of extra weight.
Skylark said... "BMI was designed for populations, not individuals. It’s not so much crap as it is misused."
True, I'm 68, weigh 185, just shy of 6-1 and 34 waist 44 chest. I bet my BMI is on the obese side.
When I was a college linebacker my BMI per chart was obese. I weighed 210 with a 32 waist 46+ chest. The team doctor, after running test and weighing me in a vat of something came up with 3% body fat.
I have no doubt young recruits are obese, I have no doubt men are over weight. Why do you think they all wear their shirt tails out? Why do you think shirt tall have become so short? Why do they sell Untuckit brand shirts?
Ann said "I think there should be a second test for fat percentage available to those who get tagged as obese on weight and height alone."
From the Army Times: "The Army, Navy and Marine Corps use a basic height-weight body mass index tool as an initial assessment. Those who exceed weight limits get taped. Men are measured at the neck and waist; women: neck, waist and hips. For both, the neck measurement is subtracted from the other measurements in an equation designed to determine their "circumference value." Those results are then compared against height measurements using Pentagon-generated charts to determine the body fat percentage."
But of course the tape test has issues of it's own. "Troops have long complained the tape test is unfair, an inaccurate gauge of fitness with an outsized impact on their careers. Their complaints mostly fell on deaf ears inside a military command structure looking for a quick, one-size-fits-all method of measuring the fat and fitness levels of millions of troops. So we decided to evaluate the tape test for ourselves. Following service-specific protocols, we taped 10 active-duty troops stationed in the Pacific Northwest and then had them undergo hydrostatic "dunk tank" testing — considered among the gold standards for determining actual body fat composition. We then compared those results to the tape testing methods used by the four services.
The results: Not once did our taping match the dunk test results. The tape test was wrong every time — and in nine out of 10 cases, the tape method measured troops' body fat percentages higher. The worst was a 66 percent difference between the scores."
I know when I was in, the BMI flag was followed up with a simple "pinch test" with calipers. I see that's still rated as a fairly accurate method, so I don't know why they went away from it.
My fasting blood sugar is usually in the 80s, non-fasting usually between 110 and 120. I'm obviously obese and have been for years. I have had the 'fat' surgery and while it helped it the weight, the other problems it caused made it not worth it. I'm still fat and in my late 60s. Obesity is a risk factor for diabetes, not a cause. I suspect there has to be a genetic susceptibility present also.
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
This post needs an "Althouse is gullible" tag.
So that something as unbelievably dense as a retired professor (several times denser than lead!) can get it, muscular tissue is much, much denser than fat. A person with lots of fat will have a high BMI, but so will a person who is very muscular and has very little body fat.
Ann Althouse said... "Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?"
When I was in the Army (72-75) I was about 125 lbs. Afterward competing in tae kwon do tournaments in Fin Weight class I was at 115 lbs approx 2% body fat. I like where I'm at now maybe drop to 130 and lose the belly would be ideal. I workout 5 days a week. It's tough to get that last 5 lbs!
"Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do"?
No, but she tells me I'm skinny even when I think I'm getting flabby, so I definitely hold myself to a stricter standard than she does.
BMI aside: I get described as wiry. This puts me right in the middle of the Army's allowable weight range for my height. If I put on 15 pounds more muscle, which I would like to do, I would be over my weight limit, and need the tape test.
We do have a surprising, and I think growing, number of overweight people, but I think the weight standards were established before a lot of modern strength training (esp. core building) became popular. It's just much more common than it used to be to run into a guy who's 5'10", 200+ pounds, and really not fat.
OK, how do we figure out whether the Prof's a witch or not? BMI or dunk?
I graduated h.s. at 6'1'/155 but gained about 50 during my first couple of years at college; when I retired in 2015 I weighed 275-280. I was fat and I knew and felt it, especially my feet and ankles.
With time and energy left to take care of myself, I completely reformed my eating and activity habits, and was down to 205 within six months; I lost so much weight that people who only knew me as a big guy asked if I was sick! (I'm upsliding, though, 219 this morning!)
I control my blood sugar w/o drugs; I took Metformin for years but got off it; I haven't been as active this summer because of some surgeries and complications but have gradually started back with some light weights and more walking. Unfortunately the only pools available nearby are indoors and unheated--hate those things.
My brother in law is a Physician's Assistant in the Air Force working with Special Forces. He has to regularly certify that the operators in his charge are healthy despite all of them being obese by BMI. These are among the fittest people on the planet.
Mine is like Kevin James in the King of Queens. “It was in the brochure!” Nobody who meets me is going to mistake me for that baseball player, body wise, yet still..... I am sure they would like me to have a better body, ME to have a better body, but it seems that they like ME more than they feel the need to go looking for some gym rat player.
For men, I recommend using the Levi's Fit Index (LFI): Waist measurement should equal inseam measurement.
Also, for everyone, the Tsunami Is Coming, CHOP CHOP! Index (TICCCI): Can you get up off your big behind (BB), leave your fruity cocktail umbrella at the tiki bar and briskly walk, run or swim 1 mile without stopping to rest? No? Expect to sink like a 20 US fluid ounce Hurricane glass.
I think BMI, taken beyond "rough guide to population characteristics" use, is another example of cargo-culting quantification. A calculation (any calculation) or number has some magic properties that supersede what your own lying eyes (and joints, and muscles) are telling you.
You see this a lot in hiking fora re "ideal pack weight" - the ideal weight being some percentage of body weight. This is absurd on the face of it, not really even of much use as a rough beginner's guide - as if what a fit, trim, 28-year-old, 180# male can carry on beginning training hikes, or the long hike itself, has any bearing whatever on what might be a reasonable burden for a fat, 60-year-old, 180# female in marginal (and nascently arthritic) shape. But "X% of your body weight" continues to be put forward as a golden metric.
An African-American friend of mine has body fat so low he sinks like a rock in the water. Yet by BMI he is overweight. I agree with Ralph that using BMI, which was developed in Europe, for people of tropical ancestry is inapp
As a track athlete at UW-Madison, I weighed 191 lbs. I’m 6’2”. University medical personnel weighed and measured me. At that time they also measured my body fat which was 6% Yes I was built like a Greek god.
My BMI then would put me at the upper end of normal, admittedly not overweight. However if I added 10 lbs of fat (something I probably have done despite maintaining that weight, but losing muscle), I’d be overweight but with just under 12% body fat.
By way of comparison, “normal” body fat percentage is in the 15-20% range.
That’s why BMI is BS.
Measure body fat, waist/hip size, and such in order to understand if you’re overweight. BMI was a stupid invention by some French guy
After six years in the navy, I can tell you this does not surprise me at all. When deployed, meals are large and often (Four full meals are offered per day). Ship time is spent on sedentary watches. You tend to be on watch or in your rackAlso, the higher the enlisted rank, the higher the BMI. The annual physical requirements have been lowered many times.
My doctor uses an app to track appointments and labs. The developers of the app were kind enough to create it in such a way that your weight, height, bmi, and bp show on your home page.
Back in the day whenever I would move I’d join a gym. The guys always ask why you are joining and I would let them know I wasn’t trying to lose weight as much as I was hoping to move it around (thanks for the saddlebags mom) or maybe firm up the weight I did have. They would always tell me to be prepared to gain weight cuz muscle weighs more than fat. I don’t miss the days of having some young gym kid (always male) measuring me with calipers.
My wife's oldest brother retired from the Chair Force after 20 in about 1985. The last five or six he had to struggle like hell to maintain the required BMI standard. He's built like a fireplug; OTOH he also eats too much crap and is not very active.
I am 5’10” tall. A doctor once told me that my ideal weight was (IIRC) 160 pounds. Hell, I was 185 in high school. Excellent shape (played football and soccer, surfer, skier).
I learned a long time ago that people will say stupid things. Even educated people. I am sure if you asked Einstein’s wife, “Did he ever say stupid things?”, she’d probably say, “Oh, hell yeah!”
“Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?”
Ann, you are conflating being overweight with BMI being a valid measure of obesity. There is absolutely no valid scientific reason for using BMI as a measure of obesity. This is equivalent to saying that 22/7 is a valid formula for pi because it gives a value that is close to the correct answer.
My cardiologist told me my BMI number (25.8) at the end of my exam. I gave him a look and said you know that BMI is BS. He sheepishly replied that Medicare "forced him" to tell his patients their BMI number. He came that close to being my ex-cardiologist.
Here's everything you need to judge whether BMI is a meaningful measurement of body health: a video of the grossly obese (according to her BMI) gymnast Katelyn Ohashi performing a perfect 10.0 Floor Exercise routine in collegiate competition earlier this year. Your assignment, Professor Althouse, is to watch the routine and then let us know if the gymnast's spectacularly high BMI tells us anything meaningful about her body's health and fitness. We'll wait here for your report.
And since you seem to appreciate comments that detect a theme in your day's blogging, Ohashi's grossly obese BMI body was featured in the same ESPN Body Issue that featured Cristian Yelich. There are some great photos of her draggin' the wagon if you google around the interwebs.
I agree with those who question the BMI- I am 5 foot 9 and weigh 190 pounds and have been for 30 years. Little of it is fat, and yet every single I get a medical checkup, the recommendation is for me to lose 30 pounds which, in my case, would almost all be muscle and bone.
Having wrote that, though, the main issue may be that the services have relaxed the physical maintenance requirements that previously made sure personnel stayed in top physical condition. We have a broad readership here- what were the requirements 20 years ago in the various armed services, and what are they today?
TRIGGER warning Ann! We are jonesing for the next South Park season in our house - seeing Cartman like this sends me into withdrawal. Two and a half more weeks ALP, 2.5 weeks.
But seriously - the contract is up this year. No new contract past 2019 year that I have read about. Matt and Trey have nothing, NOTHING to lose. Will 2019 be the year it gets "cancelled"?
"The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look, not that she likes those other things enough to put up with the way you look."
I once came to my parents' home unexpectedly during the day. No one was home, so I thought. I walked in on my mother getting out of the shower, buck naked. I was shocked having never seen my mother of nine naked. She was a small beautiful woman with a nice shape in a one piece bathing suit, beautiful legs, but a naked woman who had given birth naked before.
I told my father on the golf course and had questions. He said she is still the 18 year old I married before I when off to WWII in his mind and heart, they had dated for two years before getting married. I will never forget that he said those are "my stretch marks". I think of that when I sometimes pick up my niece's children from school. I see mothers with an ass and a belly picking up their small children and I smile.
We need reserves. Had a serious internal bleed 20 years ago. Lost much blood. Being 10% "overweight" gave me internal reserves to rebuild.
In the 80's R. Andres (the head of the national institute of aging) looked at the mortality/weight/age issues. He found minimal mortality was 10% to 20% above recommended weight, and increased with age. So it is OK to gain the 6 pounds a decade. He died of heart disease at 89, so might have known something.
No bleeds recently, so my body has not needed the reserves. Now have a "few" extra pounds. I made 70. It is all gravy now. I will die of something, we almost all do. No one expects their cell phone to kill them, but it can.
When I was in the Marines, we had two overlapping standards: BMI and appearance. If you were overweight by BMI, you could get an exception if you did not look fat. I had a body-builder buddy who got this exception. I don't remember the details, but I think it involved getting measurements of waist, neck, etc. Same situation for normal BMI--even if you were in the normal range, if your superior thought looked fat, you got measured and could be disciplined or discharged if you did not get squared away.
Like all organizations, these rules were enforced selectively--I knew fat Marines who stayed on year-after-year because they did their job well.
Commenters: but, but....here's an anecdote about super-muscular people that have high BMIs!
Reality: BMI works for most people. Super-muscular people that have high BMIs are a tiny percentage of the population. Even in the armed forces, most of the people showing up stand to lose some weight. --Brewers Yasmani Grandal and Mike Moustakas look fat to me. Lots of baseball players look fat to me. I always think, "why don't they lose weight? They would probably be faster and more nimble".
I do like Meade's Levi's fit index, but it doesn't account for guys with tall legs or short legs.
42 years old 5'5" 142 lbs BMI: 23.6
I lost 10 pounds this year, so I was overweight but i'm now in the "healthy" weight category for women. I'm now a size 8. I would really like to get down to a size 6 but that would involve even more serious exercise/dieting and it's hard enough to stay at 142 lbs.
"The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look, “
Let’s all start obsessing on what our lovers secretly think about us! Come on, it will be great fun!
“Are my tits too droopy?” “Has my ass lost its charm?” “Do I make enough money?” “Does he hate my little pooch? He says he doesn’t.” “Does he secretly like my sister better? He denies it maybe a bit too strongly. After all, she is cute.” “Why does she look at tall skinny ectomorph guys when we are at the ball park? I thought she liked average height mesomorphs like me.” “For that matter, why does she always seem to be focused on the third baseman’s ass when all of the action is going on at home plate most of the time?” “Why does he always act so happy the day that slutty cleaning girl comes?”
Althouse said, "All of you who are telling yourself you're not too fat, what is your fasting glucose number? Are you in the normal range or pre-diabetic (or diabetic)?"
Possibly another opportunity to read too much into a single number, just like BMI. Oh, those cheap and easy indicators sure are tempting!
Some slender, low-carb-eating people have normal or low blood sugar most of the time but high fasting blood sugar. This is sometimes called "dawn phenomenon".
Conversely, some people with normal fasting blood sugar may have had pre-diabetes (or even diabetes) for some time. It just hadn't shown up in their fasting sugar yet, because fasting sugar is usually the last thing to get out of hand.
See Jenny Ruhl, Blood Sugar 101: What They Don't Tell You About Diabetes, Chapter 2.
Also, an all too-typical example for why BMI is BS, and again, I'm sure we can think of about 30% of our high school classmates/college buddies.
16-25 year old #1: Not athletic, but lean, starts adulthood at 6'2 and 165 lbs. BMI 21, normal 16-25 year old #2: Moderately athletic, starts adulthood at 6'2" and 180 lbs BMI: 23, normal 16-25 year old #3: Moderately athletic, starts adulthood at 6'2" and 180 lbs.
all are now 45, and have gained an all too typical 20 lbs of fat over adulthood: #1 still doesn't exercise but still normal BMI. however, he's now a much higher body fat percentage #2: still exercises, maintained nearly all of his muscle (men don't really lose muscle mass unless sedentary until they're around 60-70): now 200 lbs and BMI is now overweight. But he has a lower body fat percentage and higher fitness level than #1. #3: doesn't exercise, lost 10 lbs of muscle but gained 20 lbs of fat. now 190 lbs and normal BMI.
Who's in the best shape? Obviously the "overweight" guy. If you think this is not the case for a very significant groups, well, I guess you didn't go to my high school.
I'm retired Navy. I'm 5'7" and was expected to be 183lbs or less on weigh-in. I always had trouble during PT test time. Make sure weight was 180 or below. Run, do pushups, do crunches 3 times a week for six months straight. It was hard for me; I'm a dork and a geek, being a PT master was not my thing. Didn't matter that I was pretty good at my job, you could get booted for this sort of thing. Still work for the Navy and man you see a whole lot of overweight folks. Maybe its a medical issue, maybe not. But if folks applied themselves like I did, they could keep it in check.
Army here. Specifically, Army medical. We take a PT test twice a year. One diagnostic and one for record. We get weighed in each time. Weight standards are based on gender, age, and height. Now, there are guys that have never passed the weigh in because they lift. They get taped. Neck and stomach. They then pass with flying colors. However, I've been in for a long time now. There are definitely fatter people in the Army then there used to be. If they can't pass height/weight they are flagged. They can't be promoted or get awards. They are given a set time to get into compliance. If they can't they are eventually discharged. It's fairly time consuming.
MacM, Fighter Pilots tend to be that way - it is pretty demanding and the cockpits are tight. I knew two 130 pilots (including the guy I discussed) who did very well in pilot training, but weren't offered fighters because their class only had F-16 slots available. They were big, tall guys. And I knew another guy who had a neck injury and transitioned into the Herc because there was fear if he ejected, his neck couldn't take it.
We had a sergeant who fell short on his annual run and weight evaluation. He was weighed weekly after that and given time to loose weight (15 pounds, I'm guessing). After six weeks with little weight loss they took a stripe from him. After the demotion, he rebelled. In the time it took to discharge him he looked like Blair River. I have never seen someone put on weight as fast as he did. He couldn't even button up his shirt after about three weeks and was not about to buy new uniforms. I was amazed at what real gluttony can do to a man's body.
It's a mystery how some people respond to discipline with repentance, while others respond with self-destruction. I'm sure it's been studied.
Military "BMI" calculations are, or used to be, a joke. A friend of mine (a fellow NROTC student from college) and I reported to NAS Pensacola FL for flight training, and we were both put into the "weight management program". If the truth be told, I was a bit chunky back then, and not all that fit - but my friend was short, squat, powerful, and looked like Gimli the Dwarf. They "made" him go to the gym and work out, and he gained 5 pounds in a week.
They finally had the flight surgeons really MEASURE his BMI, by weighing him and then putting him in the immersion tank to measure his actual volume. He was almost ALL muscle; minimal fat. His toughest problem was floating; he didn't. He could swim all day but couldn't FLOAT.
I am a BMI skeptic because the measure is far too simple, it only looks at weight and height. At the very least, there has to be a consideration for how much the skeleton weighs, as not all skeletons come equal in size.
In my case, I have a very high BMI, but don't look like I weigh more than most NFL linemen - the guesser at the carnival this year undershot my weight by more than 40 pounds, and he would have been more than 50 off had he not increased his guess a bit when he read my surprise at what he was starting to say.
The personal trainer I'm working with has a target weight in mind for me to reach that would still be a BMI of nearly 35, but given my actual physical measurements would probably only be a body fat percentage around 20-25. Reaching a "normal" weight per BMI would require going nearly 60 pounds below the trainer's target weight and would probably make me look gaunt.
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पोस्ट्स
११८ टिप्पण्या:
Probably defined as obese by having a BMI > 30. Could be fat, could be muscle, or some combination of both, but my guess is a lot of these sailors spend a lot of down time in the weight room.
Marines win!
“This walls have to be guarded by men with guns....”
Obese is a LOT more than just overweight. I know some bulked up weightlifters end up in the obese range, but these people are supposed to be working and highly able. Those obesity numbers are ridiculous. And you know they reject some applicants because they're overweight.
An obese marine?! Army I can see, but a jarhead?!
What's the corps coming to?
I want the Marines on the wall.
The fat Marines are probably lawyers.
You keep kale fresh after 100 days at sea, making squares in the gulf of Arabia. Oh and, the Air Force is full of lazy cloud lice.
These new servicemen might be tubby, but I am a BMI skeptic. They say 30 is obese on the charts. A 6'0" man who weighs 215 has a BMI of 30. That could be a bit flabbly but also could be muscular/strong. It would rarely be obese if the man is at all active (can walk 5 miles, work outside for 3 + hours, do moderate sports activities, etc.).
On the other end, the charts say if that same man lost almost 100 pounds -- 135 -- he would be "normal." The very edge of normal, but normal nonetheless. Sorry, 135 is not normal weight for a 6' man. That's stick-like. What Arnold might call a girly man whose pants have to be cinched by a rope.
BMI is fake news. It's an uneasy comparison to think about, but obesity is a bit like pornography -- I know it when I see it.
The Air Force needs to build more golf courses and put in more swimming pools! (I'm former AF, and yes, that is snark.) Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't higher in the AF.
tim maguire said...
An obese marine?! Army I can see, but a jarhead?!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
Are you allowed to eat jelly doughnuts, Private Pyle?
Private Pyle:
Sir, no, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
And why not, Private Pyle?
Private Pyle:
Sir, because I'm too heavy, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman:
Because you are a disgusting fatbody, Private Pyle!
The Marines also have a significantly smaller proportion of females.
Marines win!
Marines have to be lean since they hitch rides in Navy equipment which is already maxed out on weight with fat sailors.
Percent obese
Navy: 22 %
Air Force: 18 %
Army: 17 %
Marine Corps: 8.3 %
Percent women:
Navy: 24 %
Air Force: 22 %
Army: 17 %
Marines: 10 %
Just noticin' these completely coincidental numbers which have no correlation with anything at all.
I agree with BarryS. I got out in early 1990. Later in 2007 when I went back to DoD as a civilian, I'd see perfectly normal looking men in good shape struggling to meet the weight standards. I'd joke the poor guys had to eat grass in order to keep from getting put on the program. We had officers and NCOs fail the PT test because they couldn't do "perfect" push ups - a civilian contractor would be judging the participants. Woe be to the man or woman who didn't pay proper respect to the occasional ass hole giving the test. It was undue stress on them members, most of whom were in fine shape - far better shape as a whole than we were in the 80's. Of course, there was a co-pilot in our sister squadron who had been a defensive lineman for a major college football team. He was built like a brick house and fast as sin, and had a waiver for his weight. His commander refused to honer the waiver and put him on the program. Poor guy looked like shit as he had to lose the weight. There was nothing healthy about it. His commander, as well as being a dick, was thin as a rail.
Seems likely that this tracks the combination of degree of physical exertion the typical role of each branch requires plus the amount of exercise that the typical role permits - its hard to order a 7 mile hike on a destroyer.
Shipboard personnel are no longer required to shovel coal, man the windlass or the pumps, or haul on halyards, so there's little scope for physical activity at sea.
What Arnold might call a girly man whose pants have to be cinched by a rope.
I'm triggered. I was 6'2" and 135 in my 20's. So my collarbones stood out--I could store water on my shoulders.
Thinks Ann doesn't like:
Fat men.
Men in shorts.
If I ever happen to run into Ann when I'm visiting my son in Madison, I sure hope it is in the winter when I'm wearing a bulky coat...';0)
Funny story at that link: intoxicated-marine-breaks-into-home-and-cooks-meal
In old age, the added weight really catches up to you.
I look slender and fit, but I've put on 40 pounds since high school. In my late 60s, my body started telling me that my frame cannot carry this added weight unless I want to accept chronic pain and disability.
I've lost half that 40 pounds and I'm on my way to dropping the remainder.
That added weight manifests itself in arthritis, rosacea, pre-diabetes and diabetes, joint pain and limited mobility (among other things).
My goal is still slightly above the published BMI standards. I'll come in at 27, which still qualifies as overweight.
I'll see how I feel at that point. If I need to, I'll drop another 20 pounds to come in under a BMI of 25.
I want to be able to continue to play on the floor with my grandkids, ride a bicycle and walk without pain.
As a submariner back in the day when we could have beards, I recall joking with my Chief that he wouldn't fit through the hatch after patrol. Most of his time was in the rack sleeping or eating.
I remember this. We had a fat LCPL who kept get shit details and remedial weight loss training (3 mile runs EVERY DAY after lunch. One day we got a new MSGT who was very wise and called bullshit on the BMI stats. He had been leading troops into combat since Nam and his personal experience with those Marines was that BMI was not a good indicator of who was fat and who wasn't. Too many "big boned" types like our LCPL were outside of the math and unjustly punished for it.
Oh my bad, my point was that this happened back in the mid 90s. So not a new gripe.
The Navy is not the outlier.
The Marines are.
Our son is 6'4", don't know what he weighs, but the multi-national corporation he works for does annual in house health screenings. His came back as obese. He does not have anything anyone would call a dad bod. His weight is compact. If you look at him, you would underestimate his weight by 30 to 50 lbs. My nephew, his cousin competes in invitation only international, Sprint Triathlons. He has said is BMI is 28. He trains about 5 hours a day and works full time.
BMI must be one of those averages based on more averages and then "adjusted" to fit a predetermined narrative.
BMI is a joke. It's so bad even NPR gets it.
All of you who are telling yourself you're not too fat, what is your fasting glucose number? Are you in the normal range or pre-diabetic (or diabetic)?
The national diet based on carbs is responsible for some of the obesity.
In examining recruits I saw kids who had lost 100 pounds to qualify. I hope they kept it off after basic.
Nobody wants to talk about the sex role in obesity numbers.
Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
@iowan2
I think there should be a second test for fat percentage available to those who get tagged as obese on weight and height alone. It's important to be accurate — fair to those who are genuinely above-average in muscle and a wake-up call to those who are relying on the easy go-to argument that BMI is bullshit and actually in trouble health-wise.
The Love of your Life; christian yelich , is 6' 2", and 196lbs
That comes to a BMI of 25.2, indicating his weight is in the Overweight category for adults of his height.
Mike Moustakas (your all star 3rd baseman?) is 6 ft 0 in, and 230 lbs
That comes to a BMI of 31.1 (Obese Class 1)
Learn about BMI Learn that it is CRAP
Do you want me to find some BMI's for your Wisconsin Badger's I'd be glad to
Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
It's almost impossible to get past the spoiled brat ranting of women my age (69) about feminism.
Most of them are so rotted out with that shit that they are barely worth talking to. Fucking them is sticking your dick in a blender.
BMI was designed for populations, not individuals. It’s not so much crap as it is misused.
“ that men are visual and women care about other things?”
Yeah, money and status. It might not be true, but it’s a hypothesis that has been working for men since time immemorial.
From Saint Croix' link:
"The BMI was introduced in the early 19th century by a Belgian named Lambert Adolphe Jacques Quetelet."
It a European girly man standard! Going for that emaciated continental look. Maybe a male model, one some ladies like to look at and find attractive.
The baseball player is a triple threat, money, status, and a great body.
I got one of those cool bluetooth scales that tells you way way more than you want to know about your naked body in the morning. (And all without an SI pic!)
As usual my BMI is well over 30 at 6 food and 235. But everything else is green - there is just too much bone and muscle.
The only time my BMI got under 28 was when I hit 197 ... and you could count my ribs and see my 4 pack (no idea where the other two went). That was not a sustainable weight for me and was only something I did to see how close I could get back to H/S weight AND to see if I could break a 3 hour marathon. (I could not.)
Ideal weight for me is probably 210 or so - flat stomach, old man butt sag, good angle between my shoulders and hips. And I'll be obese every year on our healthcare plan.
And, yes, @Ann, at my current weight all my blood chemistry is fine, nothing to worry about except for three college age kids and my disc golf score.
-XC
Where does it state that BMI applies only to men?
When averaged over populations, the "big boned" guys are accounted for.
The Target Population for Military Recruitment: Youth Eligible to Enlist Without a Waiver
They provide some hard-to-compare charts of reasons for male and female inability to enlist.
For many reasons they're the same percentages (e.g. fatness is exactly the same), the main differences are in mental health (women worse), and conduct and drugs (men worse).
And the results are based on surveys and other statistics, NOT on actual recruits showing up for induction.
Skylark's got it right about women: Money and Status! Of course, this is a generalization, and there are examples of other things like looks.
As to the rank of the services, Navy, Air Force, Army and Marines, having served in the Army, and having lived in a Navy base for 10 months, I would say that the obesity ranking relates to the quality of food.
The Navy has always been known as having the best food. This was the case for my service. The Air Force is next, then the Army and Marines. On occasion I visited several Air Force bases and their food was good, but not up to Navy standards. I never had the pleasure of enjoying Marine food, but I can only imagine....
As far as Army food goes, when I was in Vietnam sometimes the dogs wouldn't eat the food that was served. (There was a pack of dogs roaming the Phuoc Vinh base.) On those days, the care packages from home with canned food were really appreciated.
JML said...
"The Air Force needs to build more golf courses and put in more swimming pools! (I'm former AF, and yes, that is snark.) Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't higher in the AF."
My father was a lifer AF fighter pilot. When he retired he had a 34 inch waist and weighed 190. When he wasn't flying all he did was play golf, which he learned in occupation Japan.
Professor, Aaron Rodgers is listed as 6'2", 225 lbs, which is a BMI of 29 so nearly obese. Next time you watch a Brewers game, look at the Brewer's catcher Yasmani Grandal. He is listed as 6'1", 235 lbs -- obese with a BMI of 31. BMI is a really bad metric for athletic people with higher amounts of muscular body weight. It's not just bulked up professional level bodybuilders and strongmen who get picked up here. For an athletic population, bodyfat percentage (which you mention above) and waist circumference are much better indicators.
There's nothing really wrong with the BMI if it is used as a rule of thumb. A person with a BMI of 30 is obese on average. It's a useful way of filtering for further analysis. The problem is when the BMI becomes the analysis, something it is poorly suited to do. Given we have a sizeable number of self-important people who do not want to think that much, it becomes our problem.
Yeah, money and status. It might not be true, but it’s a hypothesis that has been working for men since time immemorial.
"6 foot and 6 figures"
When I was young and stupid (stop that!) I believed girls when they said they just wanted a nice guy. Which put me on the "uncle" shelf - a confidant for them to pout to over how their latest Bad Boy had wrong them. My final straw was listening to the girl I was in love with explain how Bad Boy had been too rough and tore her upper labium.
But until then, I was part of their cliche. Quite often they forgot I was around and I got to hear what girls really think about men.
"6 foot and 6 figures" was a common refrain.
And no worries about me. After that girl I was madly in love with gave me that visual, I adopted the Bad Boy persona hardcore. Got more pussy the first year than I had my entire life. Hooked the woman I would marry with it, then dropped it and went back to my normal nice and sensitive side once we married.
So it all worked out for the best in the end. But I think it's why I lost so much respect women.
I recently got to see a generous sample of Army recruits, before, at a MEPs facility, and after Basic and a combat arms ATI. Some of the chicks were kind of big gals but if they made it through what was undoubtedly a grueling regimen, I don’t see how they could be considered anything but fit. All the dudes were slender. Got to hand it to the Army. In an era where everybody else is lowering their standards in an effort to be more inclusive, they’re raising their standards and being more inclusive.
I demand our host provide a link proving the usefulness of BMI or delete this post!
Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson ("worlds strongest man"/Game of Thrones) BMI = 43.
AA: Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?
Where did that come from? Is this one of your feminist trigger topics?
People are giving examples of when and how the BMI fails as an accurate measure (which it sometimes does), not rationalizing away their own lardiness. So why are you responding as if that's what they're all doing? (Unless you're obliquely responding to Fern pointing out that obesity rates correlate well to percentage of women in branch of service. In which case...well, they do.)
There are better measures of "you really need to drop the lard, dude" for an individual - fasting glucose (as you yourself point out), waist measurement...looking in the freakin' mirror, pinching 5 inches of fat on your abdomen...
Anyhoo, does anybody need a BMI calculation to know that they're damaging their health with excess fat? It's not as if people being "BMI deniers" is what's causing the relentless rise in overweight and obesity. Anybody who's obese already knows it, and knows it's bad for them, no matter how much "fat acceptance" crap they spout.
"I hink there should be a second test for fat percentage"
There used to be the pinch test. If you can pinch an inch...whatever happened to that?
But really, what matters is can you run 3 miles and work out in the heat for hours? A true fatty can't and will wash out of boot.
3 June 2019 -- glucose 94
height 5'9"
weight 178
I lost 7 pounds this year
Every morning for the past year I bench press 30 pounds -- fifty reps
Forty situps
Then my work day starts, which is presently felling dead oaks and making firewood out of it. Hard physical work.
I'll be 73 in November.
6' 135lb is in the range of survivors of Japanese prison camps.
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
It's not, but you aren't the first to pretend otherwise. I knew a guy in ROTC that was disqualified because of his BMI. He was allowed to take an alternative displacement test where they stick him in water to determine whether the weight is fat or muscle. He was very much muscle. Besides lifting weights, he ran marathons. Yet the Army was ready to reject him for high BMI. He is still serving as a Colonel.
BMI is garbage. The military should stick with the PFT and dump the BMI.
Just checked the BMI chart
26.3
Overweight BMI
6' 135lb is in the range of survivors of Japanese prison camps.
It depends on the bone structure.
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
Actually, it's mostly women who claim to be "fat, but fit", which is a big fat lie. There are many men who are legitimately lean at a high BMI.
5' 11" 185lb - overweight by BMI calc.
When I was @ ages 18-30 I was 165lb
Thats when I was playing football (soccer to you).
So there is another 20lb I could stand to lose, and that is realistic.
I topped out at @205lb which is not quite obese, but obviously unhealthy as thats when I acquired diabetes.
So the BMI charts seem overall reasonable to me.
The military should stick with the PFT and dump the BMI.
The PFT needs to be redone (and not what they've decided to go with!) but yeah, if you can meet the physical demands then we shouldn't care about a bit of extra weight.
I would think BMI would discriminate against people with West African ancestry. I read gymnasts also have denser bones from all the bouncing around.
Skylark said...
"BMI was designed for populations, not individuals. It’s not so much crap as it is misused."
True, I'm 68, weigh 185, just shy of 6-1 and 34 waist 44 chest. I bet my BMI is on the obese side.
When I was a college linebacker my BMI per chart was obese. I weighed 210 with a 32 waist 46+ chest. The team doctor, after running test and weighing me in a vat of something came up with 3% body fat.
I have no doubt young recruits are obese, I have no doubt men are over weight. Why do you think they all wear their shirt tails out? Why do you think shirt tall have become so short? Why do they sell Untuckit brand shirts?
Ann said "I think there should be a second test for fat percentage available to those who get tagged as obese on weight and height alone."
From the Army Times: "The Army, Navy and Marine Corps use a basic height-weight body mass index tool as an initial assessment. Those who exceed weight limits get taped. Men are measured at the neck and waist; women: neck, waist and hips. For both, the neck measurement is subtracted from the other measurements in an equation designed to determine their "circumference value." Those results are then compared against height measurements using Pentagon-generated charts to determine the body fat percentage."
But of course the tape test has issues of it's own. "Troops have long complained the tape test is unfair, an inaccurate gauge of fitness with an outsized impact on their careers. Their complaints mostly fell on deaf ears inside a military command structure looking for a quick, one-size-fits-all method of measuring the fat and fitness levels of millions of troops. So we decided to evaluate the tape test for ourselves. Following service-specific protocols, we taped 10 active-duty troops stationed in the Pacific Northwest and then had them undergo hydrostatic "dunk tank" testing — considered among the gold standards for determining actual body fat composition. We then compared those results to the tape testing methods used by the four services.
The results: Not once did our taping match the dunk test results. The tape test was wrong every time — and in nine out of 10 cases, the tape method measured troops' body fat percentages higher. The worst was a 66 percent difference between the scores."
I know when I was in, the BMI flag was followed up with a simple "pinch test" with calipers. I see that's still rated as a fairly accurate method, so I don't know why they went away from it.
My fasting blood sugar is usually in the 80s, non-fasting usually between 110 and 120. I'm obviously obese and have been for years. I have had the 'fat' surgery and while it helped it the weight, the other problems it caused made it not worth it. I'm still fat and in my late 60s. Obesity is a risk factor for diabetes, not a cause. I suspect there has to be a genetic susceptibility present also.
None dare call it BMI:
US Navy Calculator - Body Fat Calculator
Data used for calculation of fatness: sex, height, weight, narrowest waist, widest hip, narrowest neck.
++
He was allowed to take an alternative displacement test where they stick him in water to determine whether the weight is fat or muscle.
See this link:
The Army, Navy and Marine Corps use a basic height-weight body mass index tool as an initial assessment, and then those who exceed weight limits get taped.
++
Jumping the line: BMI has been proven nonsense for oh, many decades now.
Narr
Now I'll see what others think
BMI skepticism is, apparently, the new "I'm not fat, I'm big boned."
This post needs an "Althouse is gullible" tag.
So that something as unbelievably dense as a retired professor (several times denser than lead!) can get it, muscular tissue is much, much denser than fat. A person with lots of fat will have a high BMI, but so will a person who is very muscular and has very little body fat.
Ann Althouse said...
"Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?"
My benchmark is whether I get asked back.
Age: 65
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 135
BMI: 21.7
% Body Fat: 8
When I was in the Army (72-75) I was about 125 lbs. Afterward competing in tae kwon do tournaments in Fin Weight class I was at 115 lbs approx 2% body fat. I like where I'm at now maybe drop to 130 and lose the belly would be ideal. I workout 5 days a week. It's tough to get that last 5 lbs!
Prof. Althouse:
"Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do"?
No, but she tells me I'm skinny even when I think I'm getting flabby, so I definitely hold myself to a stricter standard than she does.
BMI aside: I get described as wiry. This puts me right in the middle of the Army's allowable weight range for my height. If I put on 15 pounds more muscle, which I would like to do, I would be over my weight limit, and need the tape test.
We do have a surprising, and I think growing, number of overweight people, but I think the weight standards were established before a lot of modern strength training (esp. core building) became popular. It's just much more common than it used to be to run into a guy who's 5'10", 200+ pounds, and really not fat.
A bodybuilder has a BMI of 38 but is 4% body fat. BMI is only a reference point, not a diagnostic finding.
OK, how do we figure out whether the Prof's a witch or not? BMI or dunk?
I graduated h.s. at 6'1'/155 but gained about 50 during my first couple of years at college; when I retired in 2015 I weighed 275-280. I was fat and I knew and felt it, especially my feet and ankles.
With time and energy left to take care of myself, I completely reformed my eating and activity habits, and was down to 205 within six months; I lost so much weight that people who only knew me as a big guy asked if I was sick! (I'm upsliding, though, 219 this morning!)
I control my blood sugar w/o drugs; I took Metformin for years but got off it; I haven't been as active this summer because of some surgeries and complications but have gradually
started back with some light weights and more walking. Unfortunately the only pools available nearby are indoors and unheated--hate those things.
Narr
Who knew a salad could be a meal?
My brother in law is a Physician's Assistant in the Air Force working with Special Forces. He has to regularly certify that the operators in his charge are healthy despite all of them being obese by BMI. These are among the fittest people on the planet.
"My benchmark is whether I get asked back.”
Mine is like Kevin James in the King of Queens. “It was in the brochure!” Nobody who meets me is going to mistake me for that baseball player, body wise, yet still..... I am sure they would like me to have a better body, ME to have a better body, but it seems that they like ME more than they feel the need to go looking for some gym rat player.
For men, I recommend using the Levi's Fit Index (LFI): Waist measurement should equal inseam measurement.
Also, for everyone, the Tsunami Is Coming, CHOP CHOP! Index (TICCCI): Can you get up off your big behind (BB), leave your fruity cocktail umbrella at the tiki bar and briskly walk, run or swim 1 mile without stopping to rest? No? Expect to sink like a 20 US fluid ounce Hurricane glass.
"For men, I recommend using the Levi's Fit Index (LFI): Waist measurement should equal inseam measurement.”
Hey! I got short legs!
I think BMI, taken beyond "rough guide to population characteristics" use, is another example of cargo-culting quantification. A calculation (any calculation) or number has some magic properties that supersede what your own lying eyes (and joints, and muscles) are telling you.
You see this a lot in hiking fora re "ideal pack weight" - the ideal weight being some percentage of body weight. This is absurd on the face of it, not really even of much use as a rough beginner's guide - as if what a fit, trim, 28-year-old, 180# male can carry on beginning training hikes, or the long hike itself, has any bearing whatever on what might be a reasonable burden for a fat, 60-year-old, 180# female in marginal (and nascently arthritic) shape. But "X% of your body weight" continues to be put forward as a golden metric.
An African-American friend of mine has body fat so low he sinks like a rock in the water. Yet by BMI he is overweight. I agree with Ralph that using BMI, which was developed in Europe, for people of tropical ancestry is inapp
Using BMI on individuals, rather than body fat percentage, is kind of a reverse “average of averages” type error.
Those of you men who are BMI skeptics...
"You men" = everyone who knows what BMI is; that skepticism really has nothing at all to do with this strange, and strangely worded, question -
do you also believe that your sexual partner[sic] doesn't care about looks the way men do[sic],
"The currently available data strongly support the idea that men and women differ in the sorts of stimuli that they find sexually attractive and arousing."
I really do have short legs (Sitzriese body type). I am six inches taller than my wife but my inseam is only about an inch longer. Long belly.
Narr
Bowel Movement Index, more like
As a track athlete at UW-Madison, I weighed 191 lbs. I’m 6’2”. University medical personnel weighed and measured me. At that time they also measured my body fat which was 6%
Yes I was built like a Greek god.
My BMI then would put me at the upper end of normal, admittedly not overweight. However if I added 10 lbs of fat (something I probably have done despite maintaining that weight, but losing muscle), I’d be overweight but with just under 12% body fat.
By way of comparison, “normal” body fat percentage is in the 15-20% range.
That’s why BMI is BS.
Measure body fat, waist/hip size, and such in order to understand if you’re overweight. BMI was a stupid invention by some French guy
After six years in the navy, I can tell you this does not surprise me at all. When deployed, meals are large and often (Four full meals are offered per day). Ship time is spent on sedentary watches. You tend to be on watch or in your rackAlso, the higher the enlisted rank, the higher the BMI. The annual physical requirements have been lowered many times.
Since asked about BMI skeptics, fasting glucose 96
Total cholesterol:200
HDL: 80
LDL:120
My doctor uses an app to track appointments and labs. The developers of the app were kind enough to create it in such a way that your weight, height, bmi, and bp show on your home page.
Back in the day whenever I would move I’d join a gym. The guys always ask why you are joining and I would let them know I wasn’t trying to lose weight as much as I was hoping to move it around (thanks for the saddlebags mom) or maybe firm up the weight I did have. They would always tell me to be prepared to gain weight cuz muscle weighs more than fat. I don’t miss the days of having some young gym kid (always male) measuring me with calipers.
My wife's oldest brother retired from the Chair Force after 20 in about 1985. The last five or six he had to struggle like hell to maintain the required BMI standard. He's built like a fireplug; OTOH he also eats too much crap and is not very active.
Narr
He has all the fat-related issues
“Yeah, money and status. It might not be true, but it’s a hypothesis that has been working for men since time immemorial.”
The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look, not that she likes those other things enough to put up with the way you look.
Do you think Melania doesn’t mind Trump’s obesity and doesn’t wish he’d kept himself fit, that she’s just loving and tolerant and bought off?
I am 5’10” tall. A doctor once told me that my ideal weight was (IIRC) 160 pounds. Hell, I was 185 in high school. Excellent shape (played football and soccer, surfer, skier).
I learned a long time ago that people will say stupid things. Even educated people. I am sure if you asked Einstein’s wife, “Did he ever say stupid things?”, she’d probably say, “Oh, hell yeah!”
“Those of you men who are BMI skeptics... do you also believe that your sexual partner doesn't care about looks the way men do, that men are visual and women care about other things?”
Ann, you are conflating being overweight with BMI being a valid measure of obesity. There is absolutely no valid scientific reason for using BMI as a measure of obesity. This is equivalent to saying that 22/7 is a valid formula for pi because it gives a value that is close to the correct answer.
My cardiologist told me my BMI number (25.8) at the end of my exam. I gave him a look and said you know that BMI is BS. He sheepishly replied that Medicare "forced him" to tell his patients their BMI number. He came that close to being my ex-cardiologist.
Here's everything you need to judge whether BMI is a meaningful measurement of body health: a video of the grossly obese (according to her BMI) gymnast Katelyn Ohashi performing a perfect 10.0 Floor Exercise routine in collegiate competition earlier this year. Your assignment, Professor Althouse, is to watch the routine and then let us know if the gymnast's spectacularly high BMI tells us anything meaningful about her body's health and fitness. We'll wait here for your report.
And since you seem to appreciate comments that detect a theme in your day's blogging, Ohashi's grossly obese BMI body was featured in the same ESPN Body Issue that featured Cristian Yelich. There are some great photos of her draggin' the wagon if you google around the interwebs.
The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look,
Who has that delusion? I've never met or heard of anyone who believes that.
grossly obese (according to her BMI) gymnast Katelyn Ohashi
Height 5'1", weight 105, BMI= 19.8
Height 5'1", weight 105, BMI= 19.8
She's 4'9", 108 pounds.
She's 4'9", 108 pounds.
I guess that depends where you look, the values I posted are all over the place. But with your values she's still just a normal BMI of 23.4.
The guy who just lost the world bench-press record has a BMI of 45.1
So, did someone mention sea mammals and then forget about sea mammals?
9' tall 800 pound walrus: BMI = 48.2
12' tall 3000 pound walrus: BMI = 101.7
25' tall 12000 pound orca: BMI = 93.7
Sea otters BMI 15.3 to 19.3
I agree with those who question the BMI- I am 5 foot 9 and weigh 190 pounds and have been for 30 years. Little of it is fat, and yet every single I get a medical checkup, the recommendation is for me to lose 30 pounds which, in my case, would almost all be muscle and bone.
Having wrote that, though, the main issue may be that the services have relaxed the physical maintenance requirements that previously made sure personnel stayed in top physical condition. We have a broad readership here- what were the requirements 20 years ago in the various armed services, and what are they today?
TRIGGER warning Ann! We are jonesing for the next South Park season in our house - seeing Cartman like this sends me into withdrawal. Two and a half more weeks ALP, 2.5 weeks.
But seriously - the contract is up this year. No new contract past 2019 year that I have read about. Matt and Trey have nothing, NOTHING to lose. Will 2019 be the year it gets "cancelled"?
Blue whale, 100 feet tall and 250,000 pounds, BMI = 122.1
Here's a calcalator that lets you enter interesting values.
"The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look, not that she likes those other things enough to put up with the way you look."
I once came to my parents' home unexpectedly during the day. No one was home, so I thought. I walked in on my mother getting out of the shower, buck naked. I was shocked having never seen my mother of nine naked. She was a small beautiful woman with a nice shape in a one piece bathing suit, beautiful legs, but a naked woman who had given birth naked before.
I told my father on the golf course and had questions. He said she is still the 18 year old I married before I when off to WWII in his mind and heart, they had dated for two years before getting married. I will never forget that he said those are "my stretch marks". I think of that when I sometimes pick up my niece's children from school. I see mothers with an ass and a belly picking up their small children and I smile.
We need reserves. Had a serious internal bleed 20 years ago. Lost much blood. Being 10% "overweight" gave me internal reserves to rebuild.
In the 80's R. Andres (the head of the national institute of aging) looked at the mortality/weight/age issues. He found minimal mortality was 10% to 20% above recommended weight, and increased with age. So it is OK to gain the 6 pounds a decade. He died of heart disease at 89, so might have known something.
No bleeds recently, so my body has not needed the reserves. Now have a "few" extra pounds. I made 70. It is all gravy now. I will die of something, we almost all do. No one expects their cell phone to kill them, but it can.
When I was in the Marines, we had two overlapping standards: BMI and appearance. If you were overweight by BMI, you could get an exception if you did not look fat. I had a body-builder buddy who got this exception. I don't remember the details, but I think it involved getting measurements of waist, neck, etc. Same situation for normal BMI--even if you were in the normal range, if your superior thought looked fat, you got measured and could be disciplined or discharged if you did not get squared away.
Like all organizations, these rules were enforced selectively--I knew fat Marines who stayed on year-after-year because they did their job well.
Commenters: but, but....here's an anecdote about super-muscular people that have high BMIs!
Reality: BMI works for most people. Super-muscular people that have high BMIs are a tiny percentage of the population. Even in the armed forces, most of the people showing up stand to lose some weight.
--Brewers Yasmani Grandal and Mike Moustakas look fat to me. Lots of baseball players look fat to me. I always think, "why don't they lose weight? They would probably be faster and more nimble".
I do like Meade's Levi's fit index, but it doesn't account for guys with tall legs or short legs.
42 years old
5'5"
142 lbs
BMI: 23.6
I lost 10 pounds this year, so I was overweight but i'm now in the "healthy" weight category for women. I'm now a size 8. I would really like to get down to a size 6 but that would involve even more serious exercise/dieting and it's hard enough to stay at 142 lbs.
"The delusion is that she doesn’t care how you look, “
Let’s all start obsessing on what our lovers secretly think about us! Come on, it will be great fun!
“Are my tits too droopy?”
“Has my ass lost its charm?”
“Do I make enough money?”
“Does he hate my little pooch? He says he doesn’t.”
“Does he secretly like my sister better? He denies it maybe a bit too strongly. After all, she is cute.”
“Why does she look at tall skinny ectomorph guys when we are at the ball park? I thought she liked average height mesomorphs like me.”
“For that matter, why does she always seem to be focused on the third baseman’s ass when all of the action is going on at home plate most of the time?”
“Why does he always act so happy the day that slutty cleaning girl comes?”
This road can only lead to increased happiness!
Althouse said, "All of you who are telling yourself you're not too fat, what is your fasting glucose number? Are you in the normal range or pre-diabetic (or diabetic)?"
Possibly another opportunity to read too much into a single number, just like BMI. Oh, those cheap and easy indicators sure are tempting!
Some slender, low-carb-eating people have normal or low blood sugar most of the time but high fasting blood sugar. This is sometimes called "dawn phenomenon".
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Physiological%20insulin%20resistance%20%283%29%3B%20Clarification%20of%20FBG
Conversely, some people with normal fasting blood sugar may have had pre-diabetes (or even diabetes) for some time. It just hadn't shown up in their fasting sugar yet, because fasting sugar is usually the last thing to get out of hand.
See Jenny Ruhl, Blood Sugar 101: What They Don't Tell You About Diabetes, Chapter 2.
"Do you think Melania doesn’t mind Trump’s obesity and doesn’t wish he’d kept himself fit, that she’s just loving and tolerant and bought off?”
This reminds me of the old joke:
“Who do you think you are going to please with that?”
“Me!"
"All of you who are telling yourself you're not too fat,”
Titus has won the day, I see. I thought her comeback was pretty funny, but alas, not enough to overcome the power of his remark.
Best measurement of obesity is Girth measurement.
"Best measurement of obesity is Girth measurement”
That’s true in other things too.
Also, an all too-typical example for why BMI is BS, and again, I'm sure we can think of about 30% of our high school classmates/college buddies.
16-25 year old #1: Not athletic, but lean, starts adulthood at 6'2 and 165 lbs. BMI 21, normal
16-25 year old #2: Moderately athletic, starts adulthood at 6'2" and 180 lbs BMI: 23, normal
16-25 year old #3: Moderately athletic, starts adulthood at 6'2" and 180 lbs.
all are now 45, and have gained an all too typical 20 lbs of fat over adulthood:
#1 still doesn't exercise but still normal BMI. however, he's now a much higher body fat percentage
#2: still exercises, maintained nearly all of his muscle (men don't really lose muscle mass unless sedentary until they're around 60-70): now 200 lbs and BMI is now overweight. But he has a lower body fat percentage and higher fitness level than #1.
#3: doesn't exercise, lost 10 lbs of muscle but gained 20 lbs of fat. now 190 lbs and normal BMI.
Who's in the best shape? Obviously the "overweight" guy.
If you think this is not the case for a very significant groups, well, I guess you didn't go to my high school.
Also #2 is where a lot of military and similar active middle aged guys would fall.
I'm retired Navy. I'm 5'7" and was expected to be 183lbs or less on weigh-in. I always had trouble during PT test time. Make sure weight was 180 or below. Run, do pushups, do crunches 3 times a week for six months straight. It was hard for me; I'm a dork and a geek, being a PT master was not my thing. Didn't matter that I was pretty good at my job, you could get booted for this sort of thing. Still work for the Navy and man you see a whole lot of overweight folks. Maybe its a medical issue, maybe not. But if folks applied themselves like I did, they could keep it in check.
CTIC(SS) (Ret)
Army here.
Specifically, Army medical.
We take a PT test twice a year. One diagnostic and one for record.
We get weighed in each time.
Weight standards are based on gender, age, and height.
Now, there are guys that have never passed the weigh in because they lift. They get taped. Neck and stomach. They then pass with flying colors.
However, I've been in for a long time now. There are definitely fatter people in the Army then there used to be.
If they can't pass height/weight they are flagged. They can't be promoted or get awards. They are given a set time to get into compliance. If they can't they are eventually discharged. It's fairly time consuming.
MacM, Fighter Pilots tend to be that way - it is pretty demanding and the cockpits are tight. I knew two 130 pilots (including the guy I discussed) who did very well in pilot training, but weren't offered fighters because their class only had F-16 slots available. They were big, tall guys. And I knew another guy who had a neck injury and transitioned into the Herc because there was fear if he ejected, his neck couldn't take it.
We had a sergeant who fell short on his annual run and weight evaluation. He was weighed weekly after that and given time to loose weight (15 pounds, I'm guessing). After six weeks with little weight loss they took a stripe from him. After the demotion, he rebelled. In the time it took to discharge him he looked like Blair River. I have never seen someone put on weight as fast as he did. He couldn't even button up his shirt after about three weeks and was not about to buy new uniforms. I was amazed at what real gluttony can do to a man's body.
It's a mystery how some people respond to discipline with repentance, while others respond with self-destruction. I'm sure it's been studied.
Military "BMI" calculations are, or used to be, a joke. A friend of mine (a fellow NROTC student from college) and I reported to NAS Pensacola FL for flight training, and we were both put into the "weight management program". If the truth be told, I was a bit chunky back then, and not all that fit - but my friend was short, squat, powerful, and looked like Gimli the Dwarf. They "made" him go to the gym and work out, and he gained 5 pounds in a week.
They finally had the flight surgeons really MEASURE his BMI, by weighing him and then putting him in the immersion tank to measure his actual volume. He was almost ALL muscle; minimal fat. His toughest problem was floating; he didn't. He could swim all day but couldn't FLOAT.
I am a BMI skeptic because the measure is far too simple, it only looks at weight and height. At the very least, there has to be a consideration for how much the skeleton weighs, as not all skeletons come equal in size.
In my case, I have a very high BMI, but don't look like I weigh more than most NFL linemen - the guesser at the carnival this year undershot my weight by more than 40 pounds, and he would have been more than 50 off had he not increased his guess a bit when he read my surprise at what he was starting to say.
The personal trainer I'm working with has a target weight in mind for me to reach that would still be a BMI of nearly 35, but given my actual physical measurements would probably only be a body fat percentage around 20-25. Reaching a "normal" weight per BMI would require going nearly 60 pounds below the trainer's target weight and would probably make me look gaunt.
Obesity is just another downside of capitalism. A free society does not encourage the consumption of raw vegetables.
Love it or leave it, baby.
I guess that depends where you look, the values I posted are all over the place. But with your values she's still just a normal BMI of 23.4.
I'll just leave this here.
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