१३ जून, २०१९
"President Trump has resumed talks with Major League Baseball owners after his administration blocked a historic agreement that would have allowed Cuban baseball players to join MLB teams without having to defect."
"But the White House made clear that in exchange for revisiting that decision, it wants MLB, like other groups with ties to the island, to urge Cuba to reduce its long-standing cooperation with Venezuela's socialist government," NPR reports.
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One of the many differences between Obama and Trump--Obama sat down at the negotiating table knowing how badly he wanted a deal. Trump sits down at the negotiating table knowing how badly his opponent wants a deal.
Obama wanted the embargo lifted so he lifted it, no concessions. I doubt Trump cares whether Cuban players need to defect to play in the major leagues, but if Cuba wants it, they should pay for it.
Trump's hardening towards Cuba was such a stupid sop to the hard-liners in his administration. It will of course do nothing to advance American national or security interests and will do nothing to alter the interior nature of the Cuban regime. The US has attempted to isolate Cuba for 60 years to no avail, and half that time has been since the Cold War ended.
Remember when Obama signed to order to return all Cuban refugees immediately on capture right before he left office? The press doesn’t remember it either.
"The commonest error in politics is sticking to the carcass of dead policies."
-Lord Salisbury
Seems like the Cubans tend to vote Republican so they are the one kind of illegal alien not actually welcome here. If you want to talk to a real right winger talk to somebody who used to live under communism.
You know that the Cuban government deploys snipers in boats to keep the lucky denizens of that paradise from swimming to Guantanamo? It’s almost like the island is a prison.... Naah!
Cuban snipers also were deployed in Venezuela picking off leaders of demonstrations.
But, to their credit, Cuba wants to give prison furloughs to players as long as they can tax their earnings, I suppose.
Not a prison though... Nooo!
Where is Robert Cook defending the Cuban government’s right to deny freedom to its people? It’s a good thing!
The Venezuelans have more and better players than the Cubans. Almost as good as the Dominicans.
Venezuela hasn’t produced a high quality MLB player lately. It’s a shame.
If you want to talk to a real right winger talk to somebody who used to live under communism.
I used to work with a woman from Ukraine and a man from Vietnam and they both hated Democrats, for obvious reasons.
I guess the real test will come when one of these players has an injury whether he is whisked back to the superior medical treatment available in Cuba to all, or stays in the retrograde states.
In a few years, some of these Cuban players who MLB is paying Cuba for are going to sue the MLB teams for unpaid wages after they actually defect.
The owners know Cuba is taking most of the money.
Yes Obama waived the wet foot dry foot policy and trump hasn't reinstated it, many of those who were coming here ostensibly under political grounds were returning within 6 monthes
The Castro regime took property without compensation then sold that property to the Europeans the same who invest in Sudan or China et al but were real touchy about south Africa and Russia now
@Nobody:
You seem quite concerned about the lack of human rights in Cuba. I must have missed your calls that we sever ties with and attempt to diplomatically isolate China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Turkmenistan, etc.
Cuba has been suffering under a US Embargo for 60 years. Maybe they'd better change their policy - and get rid of their Communist Dictatorship. Waiting out the USA doesn't seem to have worked.
BTW, why are Liberals so upset at those "awful" Saudis and not at those "awful" Communists in Cuba?
I guess its the great Health care. Or maybe its just liberals are just full of horseshit when they talk about human rights.
I can remember when Dan Rather would refer the Communist Thug Dictator Fidel Castro as "President Castro" - I kid you not.
"I guess its the great Health care."
And the education system, don't forget that.
BTW, why are Liberals so upset at those "awful" Saudis and not at those "awful" Communists in Cuba?
Well, just spitballing here, but if you had to spend a week on vacation, would you rather do it in Havana or Riyadh?
"Well, just spitballing here, but if you had to spend a week on vacation, would you rather do it in Havana or Riyadh?"
Yeah, and i'd rather spend a week's vacation in Cuba with its nice beaches than Omaha Nebraska. So what? I'd rather live in Omaha.
@rcocean:
Yeah, and i'd rather spend a week's vacation in Cuba with its nice beaches than Omaha Nebraska. So what? I'd rather live in Omaha.
Just a bit of a cheeky reply. Of course, your question could be inverted as "BTW, why are Conservatives so upset at those "awful" Communists in Cuba but not at those "awful" Saudis?"
Trump wakes up every morning and asks himself, “where do I have leverage?”
"Venezuela hasn’t produced a high quality MLB player lately. It’s a shame."
Define "lately". Jose Altuve is under 30, does he count?
You seem quite concerned about the lack of human rights in Cuba. I must have missed your calls that we sever ties with and attempt to diplomatically isolate China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Turkmenistan, etc.
China was pretty isolated from 1950 to 1972 when Nixon decided to use them to pressure the USSR. Then, Bill Clinton, after some probable payments, decided to send US technology to help their defense industries. More followed.
The others are all Muslim countries and you know Islamophobia is such a terrible thing. Besides, none of the others acted as an enemy until Turkey started shifting to Islamism,.
@Michael K:
I don't really disagree with anything you wrote, but it's all beside the point. The Cuba discussion always quickly descends into Cuba's human rights record, as if that is what should drive our policy towards Cuba. Yet, that doesn't really hold anywhere else in the world, and it's obviously a cynical explanation to maintain a failed policy.
Notice NPR's weaselly use of the weasel-words "eligible" and "blessing" when referencing what is clearly a subgroup of eligible players who still require the discretionary permission of the Cuban government.
A senior administration official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said in a briefing that the agreement itself was a form of "human trafficking" by the Cuban government and that the Cuban Baseball Federation is a subsidiary of the Cuban government.
"We look forward to the day that Cuban baseball players can fully contract with Major League Baseball like players from every other country in the world and not as pawns of the Cuban dictatorship," the official told reporters...
The administration blocked the baseball deal just a few days after the Cuban federation released the names of 34 players eligible to sign with MLB teams. Cuban players older than 25 years old and with six years of experience were eligible for the arrangement. Younger players were required to get the Cuban Baseball Federation's blessing to play for MLB teams.
Imagine trying to get what you want in a negotiation instead of showing your good will and compromising for the sake of compromise?
Of course the foreign policy grandees said we had to deal with China, despite they had tens of millions of their own people, same with temhe Soviets but on a smaller scale
It's all about Florida President votes.
Saudis suck at baseball.
Narr
And wellheads
We care so much more about what happens near us than what happens far away.
Imagine the confusion this causes to the chronically Smug.
Yet, that doesn't really hold anywhere else in the world, and it's obviously a cynical explanation to maintain a failed policy.
I disagree about "doesn't hold anywhere else."\
I have a daughter who is a lefty. She is very smart and well educated. Speaks five languages, including Arabic.
She went to Cuba when she was in college about 15 years ago. Snuck in through Mexico. She told a friend, "I just wanted to see if Socialism works." She is fluent in Spanish, as many tourists are not. She was there a couple of days and realized it is a prison. She wanted it to be positive. Have you read Michael Totten's series on his trip to Cuba ?
Saudi is a culture that is alien to us but it was not imposed by revolution.
The "failed policy" has kept them from doing more harm than they have.
@Birkel:
We care so much more about what happens near us than what happens far away.
Right. When a Saudi or a Chinese gets denied their human rights, it doesn't really affect us. But when a Cuban does, it really affects us.
Imagine the confusion this causes to the chronically Smug.
I certainly do find that line of reasoning confusing. Perhaps one day you can explain it to me.
Simple solution: Any Cuban baseball player who wants to play in the US can emigrate legally from Cuba and apply for US citizenship.
Oh, wait! I forgot that Cuba is a shithole dictatorship prison. They can't leave. Never mind.
@Michael K:
Again, beside the point. You don't have to approve of a regime's internal nature to have diplomatic relations with it and trade with it. See, for example, one of our largest trading partners. Also, the US attempted the isolation route with Vietnam and then abandoned that course and reestablished ties. Do you think US influence in Vietnam has waned or grown following that change in policy?
The Cuba discussion always quickly descends into Cuba's human rights record, as if that is what should drive our policy towards Cuba.
Funny how the Left always wants to talk about Human Rights in "Right wing" countries but in "Leftwing" countries its "who cares"?
Our Cuba policy isn't failing. Its *Cuba's* policy that is failing. We're doing great without Cuba. They aren't too well, without us. Let them change - and become a democracy. Given its the right thing to do anyway.
largely because we are using Vietnam as a counter to china,
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/13/trump_channels_sun_tzu_in_confronting_china__140559.html
Phil,
Good point. By lately, I was thinking since Altuve and Salvador Perez debuted back in 2011. Venezuela had a string of excellent players from Johan Santana and Miguel Cabrera through Altuve and Perez.
Some decent players like Odubel Herrera and Wilson Contreras have been inconsistent.
Maybe 2000-2011 were the golden years of Venezuelan players starting in MLB. Just seemed like there were a half dozen consistent all stats and hall of famers/borderline.
Ronald Acuna won the NL rookie of the year in 2018. He’s young and very talented. So maybe he’ll get the Venezuelan all-star factory going again
@rcocean:
Funny how the Left always wants to talk about Human Rights in "Right wing" countries but in "Leftwing" countries its "who cares"?
If you want to argue with someone on “the Left” about this, feel free. It has nothing to do with anything I’m talking about.
Our Cuba policy isn't failing.
Our policy is designed to bring down the regime. It has failed and continues to fail. But what do you think, another few years and we should see it? Maybe about the time we’ve got Afghanistan turned into a functioning democracy.
Cuba is lost and can only serve as an example to people who think socialism can actually work. That’s my concern, morons who follow Sanders should see what they are wishing for. You never heard me say anything about taking steps on the part of the US. to change the regime there, but they serve a purpose in US politics. Socialism is a dead end, look for yourself!
Of course had we effectively deposed that regime, instead of fumbling around in Vietnam, which we had little business eith.
@Nobody:
That’s all fine and good. I’m talking about what US policy towards Cuba should be. Frankly, I don’t care about the internal nature of the Cuban regime. That’s the Cubans’ problem.
Well, I wasn’t, I don’t care about our policy towards Cuba. I was pointing out that “socialism” generally winds up as a horror show, and American voters should realize this. I as also pointing out that the joke that the wall would be built if the “immigrants” tended to vote Republican, they would be “illegal aliens” and “foreign interference in our elections” and lo and behold, we have a class of refugees who have legitimate claims, and Democrat savior Obama turns them back!
So my one piece of Cuba policy would be to welcome refugees.
The example of Cuba, inspired Nicaragua and bolivia and Venezuela
@Nobody:
I tend to avoid such discussions because I don’t see much use in a word like “socialism,” which has largely been evacuated of any real meaning. Do I think that Cuba’s top down, centrally planned economy is a good idea? No. But again, that’s not my problem.
@Narciso:
Yep. Turned out poorly for them. I still fail to see any American national interest there. It’s not our business how Bolivia or Nicaragua or Venezuela choose to conduct their internal affairs.
But you wouldn't mind the same policies in this country, we've seen this song and dance before, but it another way when you lived in Thailand did you want it to go communist.
You don't have to approve of a regime's internal nature to have diplomatic relations with it and trade with it
Morality of the Jimmy Carter variety has no place in international relations. Cuba has been trying to start revolutions in the Caribbean for 50 years. That should concern us. By cutting off trade, now that their Soviet sponsor is gone, we have weakened their ability to do mischief. Cuba, for example is what is preventing the Venezuelan people from ridding themselves of Maduro.
@Michael K:
Cuba, for example is what is preventing the Venezuelan people from ridding themselves of Maduro.
That and the loyalty of the Venezuelan military, which Washington was fully (and foolishly) expecting to defect.
J. Farmer said...
@Narciso:
Yep. Turned out poorly for them. I still fail to see any American national interest there. It’s not our business how Bolivia or Nicaragua or Venezuela choose to conduct their internal affairs.
Having failed narco states to our south sending up huge chunks of their population has no affect on our country.
Nope none at all.
@Narciso:
But you wouldn't mind the same policies in this country, we've seen this song and dance before, but it another way when you lived in Thailand did you want it to go communist.
Some friendly advice: if you want to criticize my politics, know what the hell you’re talking about first.
It's amazing how consistently J. Farmer takes the side of America's enemies. From being the blog's most diligent defender of Iran and North Korea to this newfound support of Cuban communism, it's really rather remarkable.
Cuba is a sworn enemy of the US, Saudi Arabia is not. Cuba deliberately tries to harm United States interests, both here and abroad. They are less than 60 miles off our coast, and very, very eager to let others use their country as a hostile base against America. See Cuban missile crisis. They actively try to militarily recreate the communist world order. See Venezeula right now, but also Nambia and other "adventures" they have had over the years. Saudi intervenes directly in its terrorist neighbors like Yemen, which shares an actual border with Saudi.
--Vance
One reason we keep sanctions on Cuba is to prevent them from being propped up by US dollars and tourist money. Socialism never works because you run out of other people's money.... but an open Cuba would always have a never-ending supply of US tourist dollars to use.
Besides, Cuba has been responsible for one war and one almost world destroying event--the Spanish American war started in Havana harbor and then the Cuban Missile crisis. I see zero reason to lift sanctions until such time as a responsible government is in command. The fact that we haven't just declared a "shoot to kill" exclusionary zone around cube means we are being nice.
@Unknown:
It's amazing how consistently J. Farmer takes the side of America's enemies.
Opposing stupid confrontational interventionism is not taking “the side of America’s enemies.” The fact that people like you can’t tell the difference is of no surprise to me. I used to hear the same stupid invective when I was opposing the Iraq War. History sure has proven me wrong in that case. Boy is there egg on my face.
Not everything is Iraq or even vietnsm, you live in florida, that war was considered a unnecessary one, same for the Mexican war.
@Narciso:
How about referencing something from this century? I get that it doesn’t fit with your anachronistic Cold War nostalgia.
Right, Farmer. You oppose anything that is contrary to North Korea, Iran, and now Cuba. It's "stupid confrontational interventionism" to do anything or defend others from aggressive enemies of the US. I'm sure you thought D-Day was stupid controversial interventionism, as was the Dolittle raid.
Here's a tip: Defending America from its enemies is a good thing. Despite your beliefs, we are not required to let other countries attack, stir up trouble against Americans, and otherwise harm us. But you support letting Iran, Cuba, and North Korea do whatever they want to hurt. this country and its citizens.
Not only that, you have a special love of people attacking Israel; you frequently defend that too. You fully sided with Obama on the "Let's pay Iran to kill a few Israeli Jews!" bit. Why is that? You never ever oppose US money going to Hamas or Iran or NK, only money spent to oppose them. Your hatred of "Stupid Interventionism" only applies when it's against US enemies, not when Democrats and leftists support those same enemies.
--Vance
@Vance:
Your hatred of "Stupid Interventionism" only applies when it's against US enemies, not when Democrats and leftists support those same enemies.
Oh that’s why I vehemently opposed Obama’s Libya intervention and his support for the Saudi war on Yemen. Really, Vance, you’re a goofball. You’re preferred method was tried in the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. And the conclusion you draw? Let’s do more! Thank god that last two decades of failure haven’t inspired the slightest bit of circumspection from you.
"used to hear the same stupid invective when I was opposing the Iraq War. History sure has proven me wrong in that case. "
The world is not that big anymore. I wish it was. What happens to Venezuela strolls on into Texas and Cali.
As for lessons, Iraq taught us that Americans don't have the attention span to reform Islamic culture before they destroy ours.
America betrayed a lot of good Iraqi people. It haunts me to this day.
This is all just an exercise in philosophy for you.
I miss El Duque.
https://sethfrantzman.com/2019/06/13/targeted-tankers-were-only-miles-from-important-iranian-naval-base-at-jask-with-sources/
you have a special love of people attacking Israel;
That's Pat Buchanan again. I think Farmer gets his stuff from Buchanan.
I like Buchanan. He writes good stuff, even if I disagree about Churchill. But he does not like Israel.
That and the loyalty of the Venezuelan military, which Washington was fully (and foolishly) expecting to defect.
Maybe your sources are better then mine but I understand there are thousands of Cuban "volunteers" in Venezuela.
Of course the WaPoo denies it.
It's a particularly bad day for Farmer to be defending Iran and asking for the big bad US to leave them alone, as Iran is attacking Japanese oil tankers on the open seas (Japan being an ally of the US).
But hey, let's let Iran dictate to the world what happens. At least the US won't be! And that's the most important thing!
@Unknown:
I’ve never defended Iran. That’s just something you fucking morons make up because you’re so bereft of your arguments.
And Iraq was full of WMD. So happy to see that 16 years later there’s still credulous morons like yourself eager and willing to accept anything your government tells you. Beyond pathetic. But it’s silly of me to expect anything less from you rabble.
So:
1) The Cuban leadership, short on money, wants to sell some of its slaves to Major League Baseball.
2) The Trump Administration blocked it on the sensible grounds that allowing slave owners to profit from selling slaves helps prop up the slave owners and perpetuates slavery.
3) MLB has responded by objecting that running away from slavery is dangerous, and that escaped slaves can't go back and visit their families. This, of course, does not actually address the concern that caused the block, but does have some PR value.
4) A bunch of hypocritical shits are pretending that people who help slaves run away from Cuba are evil human traffickers, but that the Cuban government selling slaves to MLB isn't evil human trafficking.
Actually WikiLeaks, and the cj chivers indicates there were many more caches of such material then publically known
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-us-terrified-huawei-5g-networks-china-dominance-2019-2
. Farmer said...
@Unknown:
I’ve never defended Iran. That’s just something you fucking morons make up because you’re so bereft of your arguments.
This is so cute.
You just cannot participate in good faith.
The US shouldn't care about anything in the world. Keep on with your silly unicorn arguments.
We definitely shouldn't care about Iran torpedoing tankers in the strait's just like we shouldn't care about failed states and millions of refugees in our hemisphere.
I want to plant this question for Sanders to address (through Dave Begley)
Should Cuba become part of the USA and how soon.
But it’s silly of me to expect anything less from you rabble.
Says every crazy person. You see, when in the Asylum the doctor comes to the room of the patient who thinks he is a fried egg, the point is not to debate whether or not the patient is actually a fried egg, or whether he is poached, or not an egg at all but merely Napoleon.
The point is how did he get this way? What is his motivation? What makes him crazy? What lens is he seeing the world through and how do we get the Vaseline off it? How do we cure this poor sick fuck?
Nobody cares about your foreign policy views. We're just wondering where you got them. Accordingly, we look for consistency, to find patterns. So far, you mostly favor repressive regimes, as long as they don't tends to operate in American interests. You favor Iran at every opportunity and you would seem to disfavor Israel at every opportunity, but obviously it's not *simply* an anti-semitic thing because you disfavor KSA at every opportunity. You seem to favor North Korea, believe it or not. Obviously you favor Cuba. You don't seem to have a drop of interest in China, or Russia, or communism. So what's your angle? Homosexuality? Wypipo? Cutting off pieces of America until it is unable to care or act outside its own borders? You telling us you don't care about the rest of the world is about as compelling as telling Trotsky that you don't care about war. And yet you still want to have certain allies. Not sure why.
I know, you don't want it to be all about you, but for you here, there is nothing else. So maybe you're in the wrong place. What do you get out of being on this blog with this rabble? Do you think you're persuasive? Or is this just the only place on the blogoverse, left or right, where you can be a fried egg without getting banned?
Oh, and your Old Reliable of "we don't interfere here, why do we interfere there?" is not sound. Except as an excuse to not interfere there. So either you don't want us to interfere there, or you don't want us to interfere anywhere. Put another way, given an example of two equidistant burning buildings full of children, since you can't save both, or both at once, you want to save neither.
@Nichevo:
Nobody cares about your foreign policy views. We're just wondering where you got them. Accordingly, we look for consistency, to find patterns.
I was not aware that other people here had chosen you to be the spokesperson.
So far, you mostly favor repressive regimes, as long as they don't tends to operate in American interests.
That is such an idiotic formulation. During the 2016 election, Trump made a big deal about his Iraq War opposition. Do you think he did that because he supported Iraq and Saddam and favored repressive regimes? If someone told you that they thought we should attack China, you told them you thought that was a bad idea, and they responded, "Oh you must be a supporter of China. You must favor repressive regimes," how impressed would you be by that logic? Hopefully not very.
So what's your angle?
Quite simple. To not see thousands of my countrymen and trillions of dollars of taxpayer money get wasted to create even more unstable chaotic problems. You see, I think that's a really bad idea. I don't believe patriotism should be defined as a willingness to send young Americans off to do die for bullshit political reasons.
You telling us you don't care about the rest of the world is about as compelling as telling Trotsky that you don't care about war.
I never said that I didn't care about the rest of the world. If you were capable of even minimally reproducing my arguments faithfully, this would be far less tedious. What I said is that I do not care about the internal nature of a regime with regard to US foreign relations. I used to live in Thailand and have a great deal of personal feelings towards that country. That doesn't mean I want the US state to do intervene in Thailand to create my preferred outcome. What I feel personally about a country and what I think US foreign policy should be are two separate questions completely.
What do you get out of being on this blog with this rabble?
Amusement
Do you think you're persuasive?
Doesn't matter. I write what I think and let other people decide if they think it is persuasive or not.
Or is this just the only place on the blogoverse, left or right, where you can be a fried egg without getting banned?
I've never been banned anywhere. Certainly not for having the temerity to...gasp...disagree with people But as for this fried egg bit, I opposed Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. And yet I keep getting told how crazy and alien my foreign policy ideas are. Being right doesn't seem to have impressed anyone. Meanwhile, the people who cheerled those stupid interventions keep telling us how we need to do more. And they can always count on a certain segment of the population to carry their water for them. I am not one of those people.
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