I don't have the expertise (or time) to do this work myself, and I don't think anyone who is doing it will play it straight. And that's Trump's reason for not releasing them, isn't it?
ADDED: "New York Times story on Trump's billion-dollar tax write off was told by Trump 15 years ago on 'The Apprentice'":
Yes, and I remember this story from back in the early 90s. I remember thinking, good, we won't have to hear from that incredibly annoying creature of the 80s anymore.
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२२८ टिप्पण्या:
228 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Obama's IRS has been auditing him. If they had found anything, they would have indicted him.
Trump's taxes weren't prepared by Trump. They were prepared by legions of tax lawyers and accountants. Filed with the IRS, then gone over with by legions of IRS accountants looking for something wrong. And we can just about guarantee that since election dat 2016 have been gone over with a fine tooth comb by legions or IRS auditors looking for slightest thing wrong. And his NY taxes have been similarly examined by the NYS tax department. If there was anything wrong, they wouldn't even negotiate a civil settlement- they'd go straight to criminal charges. There haven't been any filed, there's nothing wrong with his taxes.
I haven't seen the NYT article, but the reports are that his tax returns show large losses. That doesn't mean he's losing money, it means he's in the real-estate business,which generates large losses for tax purposes but not necessarily real economic losses. But Trump has spent much of his life boasting of and probably exaggerating his wealth. Returns showing large losses would make him look bad to people who aren't tax specialists.
@Gospace
The NYT article (to the extent that I've glanced at it) seems only to be taunting him for supposedly not being as rich as people thought he was. But I don't believe showing a loss for tax purposes means that you don't have wealth.
I'm also concerned how this data of business associations would be used against non Trump people.
Maybe we could let the Federal Government Agency with an 11.5 Billion dollar budget and about 77,000 employees do it.
This really makes me realize that the democrat party is actively trying to destroy the country.
As a follow-up, and that same agency leaks confidential data, why should anyone trust them at all anymore.
How about: None of your damn business!
They have no more right to see Trump's returns than they do yours or mine, and Trump is right to defend us along with himself, if nothing else. He does not have to explain it.
I think one should and rely on experts who seem credible (perhaps who have worked for folks in real estate speculation and seem relatively neutral politically) to discern what is surprising or extraordinary, and what is mundane. The fact that the reports indicate at least in some years that he alone represented 1% of the total taxpayers' claimed losses would be enough to pique some interest. His losses and difficulty with NYC banks and lenders make it certainly reasonable to examine who he WAS able to obtain financing from since he admittedly "loves debt" and was, pretty obviously, highly leveraged. I think any thinking person would want to know who he owed money to and how much, and what actions, if any, have taken place that might involve those lenders.
Its not only boring - its inconsequential. Why are wasting time on caring about Trump's Tax Returns? At least Mittens isn't showing up to stand with the Democrats. Maybe Mitch talked to him.
This has NOTHING to do with Trump being POTUS, its just harassment and praying that they could find something that would embarrass him AND help his competitors destroy his business.
Good to know that our government is filled with highly ethical people who value privacy. Or would be if we could fire all the Democrats.
That's my thinking too. People don't even understand their own taxes, and the media sure won't play it straight.
You know why most corporations don't pay income taxes? Its because they carry forward their losses or they've lost money for tax purposes in the current year.
That's the game. For tax purposes you don't want to show a profit, because you don't want to pay the tax. So, you play games to prove you REALLY lost money. Of course, all these companies aren't really losing money in the real sense of the word - its just tax games.
I don't think anyone who is doing it will play it straight. And that's Trump's reason for not releasing them, isn't it?
How many flying monkeys who had previously claimed Trump colluded with the Russians has played the Mueller Report straight now that it's been published?
Back in the not so wayback I was in the Legal Department at Atlantic Richfield. Company headquarters was in Los Angeles. The company had offices for a full time group of IRS auditors/officials reviewing the company's tax returns. It usually took 8 to 10 years from the closing of a particular tax year before the IRS finally signed off on that year's tax return. Beats me why it took so long, but major economic enterprises of any stripe--the oil bidness, real estate empires, computer companies, movie studios etc are complicated financially and have various tax provisions ("Loopholes" in the popular vernacular) enacted by Congress that involve some element of discretion. Depreciation, loss carry forwards etc are in the eye of the auditor and the tax accountant.
So it did not surprise me when The Donald said that he had several tax years worth of taxes that hadn't been closed yet.
Now Harry Reid (I'd love to see him as the spokesperson in an exercise machine infomercial) claimed he'd seen Mitt Romney's tax returns. If in fact he did, he shouldn't have been allowed to see them. Or, considering it's Harry Reid, he may just have been making sh#t up.
With current pack of ravening leaking mutts in Congress, I'd suggest that Trump fight the subpenas one and all.
Also considering the NYT only begrudgingly admitted people paid less in taxes, why SHOULD I trust their tax reporting?
I just want to repeat something that is obvious. Its now May 2019, Trump has been POTUS for almost 2.5 years. And the Democrats and MSM STILL refuse to treat him with respect due the POTUS. They still regard his election as illegitimate and refuse to cooperate or work with him to help the Country. They are STILL opposing almost everyone of his nominations. They refuse to help him secure the border, build infrastructure or reduce drug prices or replace and improve health care. They simply REFUSE to do anything.
Then the MSM just attacks him 24/7 with negative stories. Still 92% negative, year after year after year.
Losses are losses. There is no magic in this.
Large losses in one or more years can be saved and offset against large gains in prior or following years according to the tax laws (averaging income?). If you can hold out until the profits show up, that is. Otherwise it is bankruptcy court, which Trump has also been known to make use of.
If Congress did not want businesses to make use of these provisions, they presumably would not have been included in the laws.
he alone represented 1% of the total taxpayers' claimed losses
How do the Trump Co's losses compare to, say, the GE corp's losses?
The NYT and WaPo are STILL talking about obstruction and Russia Collusion. They are STILL talking about Trump's tax returns after 2.5 Years! What about the country? What about the problems facing us? They don't give a fuck. Just GET TRUMP.
I will NEVER forgive them or the fucking Never trumpers for the way they have behaved.
OH! and;
has Jeff Bezo's AMAZON corp paid ANY taxes yet? I mean, like EVER?
Taxes are so fucking boring. And i know a lot about them. But to everyone else: Carry on.
Maybe the NYTimes could have asked for the opinion of a Hollywood studio.
Sadly, we don't even make a cursory stop at the 'who's illegally leaking private documents' stage anymore.
Day One: Private information is given to government employee.
Day Two: Private information given by government employee is published by Media.
We just know it is going to happen, and don't bother to even pretend that it is not a sign of corruption: it is already factored in and discounted.
If Trump HAD been colluding with Russia we would at least have some NYT and Washington Post reporters suffering mysterious radiation poisoning by now.
I am Laslo.
If you win in Powerball on year and so get an unusually large income, you can go back and spread it over x previous years with revised returns to avoid paying the top rate for that unusual year. Businesses do the same thing. It is not "playing games." This is how the laws read, and they read that way because it is a reasonable way of doing things.
yeah, this line of attack will work
Althouse again slices through the lies of the Democrats. Makes the salient point.
FOX just played a clip from The Apprentice. DJT is in the back of his Limo, relating how he was not always successful and how he was upside down to the tune of a BILLION dollars,back in the 80's The NYT sure broke a big story from 3 decades ago.Wait until the follow up with the block buster find. A book titled, The Art of the Comeback, authored by some person named Trump.
Commenters here have already explained off the top of their heads about President Trumps taxes and the impossiblity of a common person beginging to grasp the simplest of business taxes.
This is from the Conservative Tree House
“We’ve got him now…. as soon as people understand: fixed asset depreciation schedules; and if the assets were depreciated legally using straight line or diminishing balance; then we move to whole-value equity pick-up, or minority interest accounting; before digging into section 1031 ‘like-kind’ asset exchanges; partnerships (limited or writ large), carried interest loopholes, pass-throughs, net capital losses/gains, seven-year income averaging and the difference between long-term and short-term capital gains”…
Suuuure... I'm going to believe the media trolls telling me the meaning of anything, let alone taxes, filed by an entity that is showing loses in the $100's of millions.
When the Dems managed to convince a large part of the public that the 2017 tax bill would result in tax cuts only going to the very wealthy, and then when the 2018 withholding rule changes resulted in a few taxpayers getting smaller than expected refunds and the Dems started hyping that, too, yeah, Trump's reason for not wanting to disclose his tax returns is entirely that the Dems will use it to smear him.
I just watched Juan Williams, a pitiful example of a human being, blathering about Trump's casino losses as a reason to suspect the Russians bailed him out. I was walking past the TV.
This is a pretty good discussion of the issue. I doubt Juan would get any good out of it. You have to know a little math.
Alan is probably right about the returns showing tax losses - how embarrassing. But the truth is that Neal and the other House chairs (Nadler, Waters) are in a street fight to hurt Trump in any way possible, by any means possible. ("They don't want to legislate, they want to mutilate.") Trump knows this, won't play their game and is a much better street fighter.
I certainly don't expect the MSM to explain them accurately.
Depreciation isn't a real current expense but it is for tax purposes. You buy a building and it starts depreciating. You deduct the depreciation from the profits, and behold you have negative profits but real money coming in and a tax loss and carryforward. If you keep buying buildings, your income keeps going up and your tax writeoffs keep coming in.
No, Trump is not interested in someone doing it accurately and playing it straight.
I don't care about Trump's tax returns because I'd like the Democrats to actually be for something.
The average Joe uses H&R Block because the tax code is so complicated. Trump uses, probably, more than one corporate firm that specializes in taxes; working directly with the IRS.
That said, liberals are not interested in his taxes. The government already has them.
They want names.
Names of people/companies they can destroy for doing business with Donald Trump.
Tell me again how we're not a 3rd World country.
Joe Veenstra: His losses and difficulty with NYC banks and lenders make it certainly reasonable to examine who he WAS able to obtain financing from since he admittedly "loves debt" and was, pretty obviously, highly leveraged. I think any thinking person would want to know who he owed money to and how much, and what actions, if any, have taken place that might involve those lenders.
"[C]ertainly reasonable". "[A]ny thinking person".
Clearly.
Lol. Never say die, Joe! If you recycle through the five or six items in the "Get Trump!" action-set enough times, one of 'em is bound to work eventually.
I wonder how long before "Russia collusion!" starts getting peddled again as the Big New Trumpian scandal.
I'm not kidding.
Joe Veenstra said;
His losses and difficulty with NYC banks and lenders make it certainly reasonable to examine who he WAS able to obtain financing from since he admittedly "loves debt" and was, pretty obviously, highly leveraged. I think any thinking person would want to know who he owed money to and how much, and what actions, if any, have taken place that might involve those lenders.
This is the USA. Imagining a crime is not probable cause, to issue subpeonas, and warrants. Thank God
The problem with all this real estate developer talk is that Trump's losses weren't limited to real estate development, with its tax advantages. He bought and ran a pro football team and it went out of business. He bought and operated an airline and it was a bust and sold at a loss. He bought and operated casino hotels and they were money losers. He engaged in greenmail, and in early days made money on the sales, but as he went bigger investors caught on, the stocks tanked and he lost big on the later sales.
Wait, didn't this dude already reveal Trumps taxes? What's all this hubbub about?
This afternoon Rush ran the introduction to season 1 eoisode 1 of The Apprentice. Trump is siting in the back of his limo explaining how 13 years ago (then) he was more than a billion dollars in debt and his business was about to fail. But through skill and hard work, he turned it in to a prosperous company and one the strongest brands in the world. I'm not good at links. It's on YouTube. Maybe someone can link to it for us.
So here is Trump right there in front of millions of people explaining the trouble his company was in and how he turned it around. But the NYT thinks history started this morning and treats this as some kind of revelation.
Sheesh.
To bring him down
Like Al Capone,
They go looking for a fault--
But they'll end up
Like Geraldo
In an empty vault
Unknown got it right.
The real story here is that someone at the IRS gave copies of Trump's personal tax returns to the NYT.
There was no apparent Times investigation to uncover the information or subsequent study to put the figures in context. You get the impression sometimes that the paper's reporters just sit at their desks and wait for government documents to waft through the transom.
If something similar had happened before November 2016, the Obama Justice Department would have gone on the offensive, identified the leaker and tried to send him or her to federal prison for a minimum of 20 years.
UUUUUUUUUHHHHH - that doesn't fit the narrative.
Yeah, readering, Trump was such a failure he ended up homeless before running for president.
Blogger Left Bank of the Charles said...
No, Trump is not interested in someone doing it accurately and playing it straight.
Short demonstration of the fallacy of the Undistributed Middle:
I hate crooks
I hate Trump
Ergo, Trump is a crook
QED.
Ehh, I couldn't find anywhere to download the returns. I'd love to see them.
The issue seems to be, EVERY year in the 10 year period showed a loss, usually massive. But I guess that's the way the game is played, but it could rub voter the wrong way.
I'm sure when our new overlords finally gain power they will get right on really reforming the US tax code.
But so far "reform" has just meant more handouts.
Althouse, of course you are exactly right about this. Not only can we not trust anyone to explain his taxes, but no two people at the IRS or anywhere else would have the same story even if trying to be fair. Our tax code is such a mess that nobody can tell you what is absolutely correct or not. I purposefully do not take all the deductions I probably could, but most wealthy people probably go for it pretty liberally and assume they will just have to fight it out if the IRS challenges it. It's not a dumb risk, not unethical.
Carry forwards, Carol. You work on the story for the NYTimes, too?
Trump is what Trump is: a Paper Tiger, both financially and otherwise.
I take most NYT and Lefty Commentary with a huge grain of salt, as have been tasked with helping so called 'socialists'hide or underreport assets for tax purposes.
I doubt it was an IRS employee, since it wasn't tax returns (or largely wasn't). Between creditors, potential creditors, business partners, potential business partners and their professional advisors there must have been many with access.
I have said before that it is not news that Trump failed, but there is additional detail that highlights the misrepresentations he made. Which goes to his character, which is a low character, although this site somehow attracts lots who don't see it that way.
"I purposefully do not take all the deductions I probably could"
I live in Tennessee where there is no state income tax, and in most places, the property taxes are pretty low, too. I wonder how many people here do the work in deducting the sales taxes that fund most of the state and local government? Probably not as many as there should be, but I bet rich people do here.
Tax shelters were huge in the 80's and 90's. And yes, there were huge write-offs. Some deals were put together just for the write-offs. Master Sound Recordings were a fav. Oil wells too.
This stuff was complex and Trump had the best NYC tax attys and CPA's.
But every real estate deal had to have sound underlying economics. Trump didn't have $1b to lose. IOW, he had losses in excess of his money in the deal. That was the idea.
He had great NOL carryforwards and that sheltered future income.
He did come back from a tight spot and I admire him for it. He is fearless. The Chinese know this.
To emphasize how completely insane the Left is over this, Joe Lockhart (sold Barack his house) and Chris Matthews actually asserted that back in the 80's and 90's the Russians were giving Trump money (playboy millionaire in NYC) with the fore knowledge that he would become President in 2016. Totally insane.
"but there is additional detail that highlights the misrepresentations he made."
You have the floor- which misrepresentations? Be specific so I can verify you aren't pulling shit out of your ass.
readering said...
The problem with all this real estate developer talk is that Trump's losses weren't limited to real estate development, with its tax advantages. He bought and ran a pro football team and it went out of business. He bought and operated an airline and it was a bust and sold at a loss. He bought and operated casino hotels and they were money losers. He engaged in greenmail, and in early days made money on the sales, but as he went bigger investors caught on, the stocks tanked and he lost big on the later sales.
So? This is all public knowledge. Just like the Bombshell the NYT's dropped. WE KNOW.
It's not immoral, illegal or fattening. This is quite the collapse for the leftists. From President Trump is a Russian Operative, to, 'Trump lost money in the 80's'
Trump was in such terrible shape, when he clawed his way back, New York City business leaders got together and invited Trump so they could give him an award for doing what they said no other entrepreneur could accomplish.
Just watched that clip. Bigly Cringe-worthy. So, the US got their Ciccolina. Was bound to happen.
LOL - the Libtards at the Slimes trying to figure this out is priceless. Do you libtards know that a Mexican billionaire is keeping the Slimes afloat with high interest loans? I guess they are not good businessmen either!!!
@readering 4:39 PM
So. Fucking. What.
Why is it your - or anybody else's business - how or why Trump made or lost money before he became President? It isn't.
Seriously. Stop being Inga.
Race horses were another good tax shelter back in the day. And, while I'm not sure of it, I think professional football and baseball players are depreciable property. That's why the MLB and NFL teams don't show a profit. The players' salaries are an expense but they are a depreciating asset and another expense. That's why no profits are shown for GAAP purposes when they use to get a city to build stadiums for the teams.
I think that Trump should name his memoire “How to Cook a Wolf."
Folks getting awfully riled up for what they already knew and don't care about! Following POTUS who tweeted it was sport, and also it's a lie!
Was listening to Dana Loesch on the way to the range this afternoon. She was poormouthing the NYT for touting their story on DRT's business losses as a "scoop."
"This is not a 'scoop!' Trump's business losses were all over the media decades ago - even reported in the NYT."
But yes, I thought. It is a scoop. I had looked a bit at the story a few hours previously, and it looked just like what I scoop out of the cat's litter box.
Oh, and the range? Did my 8 inch steel circle; .22 to warm up, then 9mm and 38+p.
You have the floor- which misrepresentations?
*Clearly* he made misrepresentations!
Trump ran as a whiz at business who was going to get things done by acting like a businessman. This all goes to that.
“So. Fucking. What.
Why is it your - or anybody else's business - how or why Trump made or lost money before he became President? It isn't.
Seriously. Stop being Inga.”
Why don’t you try to stop being a retard? How stupid can you people really be? Or are you so bereft of decency that Trump truly can do no wrong in your eyes. Pathetic, moronic, un-American.
Why should we believe how he has conducted his business the past 25 years when it's clear he lied so much the first 25 years?
You can have a corporation A that spent a billion dollars building a casino, but never made any money at all, and is facing liquidation. It has almost a billion dollars in coming depreciation, but it is worthless if firm goes under while never booking a profit. Corporation B, which is profitable, sees value in the casino, if only for the remaining depreciation. So, B can wait for a liquidation of A and buy the casino for 200 million at auction, or it can buy Corporation A before bankruptcy, and it gets the full depreciation schedule, and the losses A has also book. The downside is that it also gets the debt obligations. Which course is taken depends on which course is most profitable to B.
But every real estate deal had to have sound underlying economics. Trump didn't have $1b to lose. IOW, he had losses in excess of his money in the deal. That was the idea.
The best explanation of Trump's business history is in Conrad Blacks's book about him. Black was in the same league and they did business together.
Folks getting awfully riled up for what they already knew and don't care about!
Who’s getting riled up, which folks? If you mean us folks here, this is amusement for us. If you mean the folks that get their news only from CNN and MSNBC? Well, what can I say, they never get any intelligent analysis, so you have to wonder who is drawn to those networks. If you mean the NYT, well, they hate Trump.
Amateurs talk income and losses. Professionals talk cash flows.
I write what I want to write. Others can write what they want to write. They could all be dogs on the internet!
I purposefully do not take all the deductions I probably could, but most wealthy people probably go for it pretty liberally and assume they will just have to fight it out if the IRS challenges it. It's not a dumb risk, not unethical.
For years I had a tax attorney do my taxes. I would bring all the allowed expenses do deduct. He would go through, use some, ignore others, and invents some. He know what would get flagged for being out of line, and what would be ignored. If I got audited he would represent me, and if they ruled against me, he would pay the fine, and I would pay the tax I owed. I was never audited. One time he made an error. He payed the fine and the tax.
"Why should we believe how he has conducted his business the past 25 years when it's clear he lied so much the first 25 years?"
What did he lie about, readering. I asked you to be specific, right now I see you with handfuls of shit. Pretty much anybody who has actually read about the guy knows he came close to being broke in the early 90s- he has admitted the exact same as a few commenters above have pointed out. As of today, he appears to be a billionaire again, so, again- be specific with the lies he told about his business success in the 80s and 90s. Otherwise, you will be ignored as is usual.
Why should we believe how he has conducted his business the past 25 years when it's clear he lied so much the first 25 years?
*Clearly* he lied!
“Clearly” basically means “No true Scotsman could think otherwise!"
If Trump has paid any Federal taxes beyond a minimum required by AMT (alternative minimum tax) he's more than made up that billion in losses. The NOL carryforward period used to be 20 years when I was closer to tax work. Not sure what it is these days.
Trump discussing loss in 1998 with good pals Micheal Moore and Roseanne Barr
readering: I write what I want to write.
It's OK, read. Nobody was really expecting you to back up your claims about "misrepresentations".
They just wanted to watch the sad monkey dance.
Be said...
Trump is what Trump is: a Paper Tiger, both financially and otherwise.
The Russian mercenary unit that suffered 100% casualties on 7 Feb 2018 might disagree with you. While Trump didn't do it personally- can you imagine Obama allowing the military to do it?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html
I love all the people who write they're ignoring me on this site. Thanks!
To put it another way, why should I disbelieve him now when he as told me that in the 1990s he was a billion in the hole? I mean, the losses from the story are old news that Trump has never denied.
I guess, readering, I would care more about this issue, which basically I don’t believe anything the media says about Trump anyway, but assuming it’s true, how exactly is he doing a bad job as president?
Well, you did say you had some lies Trump told- else I would have just skipped right over you, but so far all you have is assertion to offer as an example. So I guess we are done.
I love all the people who write they're ignoring me on this site
What are we going to do, sit around agreeing with each other all day? All of your points are laughable, and we like to laugh too. Anytime anybody challenges you to get specific, you can’t, which is also funny to us.
Yancy is right about tax losses and businesses. Not sure how often it is done today but there is/was a thriving market for businesses that weren't very successful but were valuable because they had large amounts of NOL's that a company could consolidate into their returns and shelter income.
It is always the same with readering and Inga- they never offer anything in support. At least Inga has enough work ethic to offer a link to someone making the assertion without proof for her. Readering is just lazier, and probably not as bright.
I thought that the problem was that he was a Putin puppet out of gratitude for Putin stealing the election from Hillary right under Obama’s nose. What happened to that one?
How did MSNBC put it, “Trump is a Russian asset."
I guess Putin is writing off Trump as a loss for the next decade.
Lazier and not as bright as Inga? I think I had better go and lie down for a bit.
The Democrats are totally controlled surreptitiously by Russia in order to divide America.
Obviously the hatred on the left because of the brainwashing done by MSM benefits Russia not America.
Ridiculousness of Freer, Inga, Readering pales in comparison to the propaganda offered and swallowed on Reddit, Twitter and Facebook.
Imagine if your formerly normal neighbors were not fed a steady stream of lies about Trump. They would not be so rage and hate filled as they are.
The Delusional Leftwing Fuckheads are now tax accountants?
Hey, that's almost STEM!
Good for them!
Yancey: Readering is just lazier, and probably not as bright.
Dude, that's harsh.
This having gone Full Inga is a new thing for readering. Like it's not even the same poster. The ravages of end-stage TDS, I guess. Finally something just...snaps.
there already have been two treasury officials, mayflower? Edwards and john fry, who have leaked the tax returns of manafort and cohen, respectfully,
yes this is the same trick, trump archvillain chaim saban used some years ago, as with carlos slims the one who holds the times leash,
also the largest shareholder In deutsche bank, is a Chinese enterprise, there are a number of large individual investors like prince sultan, who acquired 3% of the bank stock, as a swap for financing his tower of ego,
Trump and all good American should hang shame over the party of harassment.
The goal here is to endlessly harass Trump and the people associated with him so that an upstart non-politician will never consider running for POTUS again.
He threatens their rice bowls.
indeed speaking of which, north Carolina must be receiving sizable investment from Qatar, otherwise why would he being on the hunt,
For the record, I don’t think Inga is stupid, she just has that same problem it seems like the vast majority of liberals have, she can’t consider the possibility that she might be wrong, even for a second. Even Einstein wasn’t always certain he was right.
I meant readering, not Inga. I also don’t think they are the same person. readering is just sort of having a crisis lately because she knows in her heart that she simply can’t answer any of the questions people have been asking her without facing the possibilty that she’s wrong.
Will no one rid us of these archaic witch hunters.
"The NOL carryforward period used to be 20 years when I was closer to tax work. Not sure what it is these days."
I think it's Forever, but you can't carry back anymore.
I'm a CPA. I would never recommend a client disclose his tax returns. Everyone thinks they're a tax expert.
Richard burr, after mark warner having played him for a fool,
Bay Area Guy said...
The Delusional Leftwing Fuckheads are now tax accountants?
They couldn't understand the hobby loss rules when Mitt ran but now they're lecturing us on what Trump's taxes must mean.
Or are you so bereft of decency that Trump truly can do no wrong in your eyes. Pathetic, moronic, un-American.
Oh my god Inga is lecturing others on decency.
Everyone working for the IRS should be polygraphed. Whoever leaked Trump's tax records to the Nooyawk Toims committed a felony and should resign with forfeiture of benefits or be prosecuted.
I read some years ago that Trump was a partner in about 400 corporations formed over time for different projects and purposes. No one can personally oversee all of that. The best guarantee that Trump's finances are within the laws is that it takes a small army to run his empire and it is in constant contact with the even larger armies of the U.S. Gov't and the state and local governments interested in collecting their taxes due from D.J. Trump's far-flung enterprises.
And Trump is not alone about this. If Jerry Nagler's committee is genuinely interested in seeing if the Federal tax laws need revising, they would be more convincing if they picked another, less partisan political, target. There are plenty of them out there.
Didn’t msnbc post trump’s tax return like 6 months ago?
the multiverse isn't real, although it might explain some things,
https://www.weaselzippers.us/420085-dem-rep-pramila-jayapal-we-are-at-the-brink-of-a-dictatorship-because-of-mueller-report/
Between creditors, potential creditors, business partners, potential business partners and their professional advisors there must have been many with access.
Our newfound business expert thinks potential creditors and business partners have access to Trump's personal income tax returns.
Jersey Fled said...This afternoon Rush ran the introduction to season 1 eoisode 1 of The Apprentice...
--
He also ran clips of the media reacting to the same information..in 2016!
Then he ran current commentary to show it nearly identical.
Rise/repeat
Oh my god Inga is lecturing others on decency
I like some trolls, like readering, Trumpit is hilarious, I read all of readering's posts, but Inga (Everybody knew what Mueller knew because he leaked everything he had) and the one other are seldom worth the time.
readering doesn’t try to draw you into a flame war.
What other income tax returns would Donald Trump have? In the decade at issue in the NY Times article The Trump Organization was a dba. There was no Trump Organization tax return. Trump owned stuff individually.
Inga wrote: Or are you so bereft of decency that Trump truly can do no wrong in your eyes. Pathetic, moronic, un-American.
How indecent is Inga? According to her Weltanschauung, Hillary can do no wrong. Pretty goddamned indecent, pathetic, moronic, and un-American, evidently. Sauce, meet gander.
Or, Inga should establish her bona fides by giving us a litany of her complaints about Hillary and her illegal mail server and her influence peddling, and her dealy incompetence as Secretary of State that she has so far kept to herself.
We'll wait a long, long time, I fear.
The alternative minimum tax (AMT) is a supplemental income tax imposed by the United States federal government in addition to baseline income tax.
Under AMT taxpayer pay additional over baseline.
It increases tax amount due.
Just stolen from a commenter at Instapundit
“The NYT lost $1 Billion on the sale of the Boston Globe. #BillionDollarLoser!"
It's a common game played by Yahoo Finance and others in the finance news industry. Get a bunch of accountants together, give them a fact situation with complex tax issues, and ask them to prepare a tax return. Not unusual to have as many "answers" as there are accountants.
Blogger readering said...
What other income tax returns would Donald Trump have? In the decade at issue in the NY Times article The Trump Organization was a dba. There was no Trump Organization tax return. Trump owned stuff individually
You can tell she’s tanking up on talking points somewhere. Just a tip, readering, ask specific questions. Don’t worry, you are *clearly* one hundred percent right, so nobody will ban you from those web sites for asking questions! Just ask some specific questions then when you come over here, you will have ammo. I mean it’s not like you don’t have God on your side so every question you ask is going to have a solid answer that supports your side! That’s how it works when you are right!
If only I had invested in the NY Times the day Trump was elected. If only Trump had invested in the NY Times the day he was elected!
Trump’s an amateur compared to Hollywood accounting.
Does no one listen to the critters when they decide to redo the rax code? Didn’t #43 accelerate depreciation? I know they planned something.
Does no one here know anyone who owns a business?
Does no one here own stock or never had a stock loss?
Usually when I ask questions at a lefty site, I get banned for causing trouble, but in this case, you’re tightly focussed questions will no doubt be welcomed!
The viability of a tax return is between the filer and the IRS.
Trump owned stuff individually.
I see we have a tax lawyer here. Why don't you explain it all ? I ran a small business for 30 years and my taxes were complicated.
Trump's taxes have been audited by the IRS and, as someone else pointed out, this can take years.
I would think IRS agents would be insulted by you lefties alleging that he got away with cheating.
What has decency got to do with the tax code and legal and allowable tax deductions?
Do you own your own home, Inga? Do you take your property tax deductions and/or exemptions if you’re over 65?
Have you no decency?
If only I had invested in the NY Times the day Trump was elected. If only Trump had invested in the NY Times the day he was elected!
Well, you could have done really well just by investing in America the day Trump was elected! I stayed in, friends I knew sold on that day. Who is smiling now?
https://money.cnn.com/data/markets/dow/
Just choose a three year window and then look for election day!
1986 tech crash.
1987 the market crashed, remember? The Japanese owned a lot of real estate and got p’owned.
SoCal’s RE market crashed a few times in the 90s.
The Democrats are totally controlled surreptitiously by Russia in order to divide America.
I dunno. I tend to think they are funded by Mexican drug cartels. Why else do they refuse to deal with the border ?
They are following the Russian playbook but it is probably stupidity, rather than malice.
That’s why readering’s comments are so much fun!
What other income tax returns would Donald Trump have?
Almost all of his business operations are owned by / run by LLCs. Before LLCs existed real estate would have been owned by LLPs and the management companies corporations, likely S but possibly C depending on circumstances. Every one of these entities would file a separate tax return. A dba relates to a business not a person so your use of this fact contradicts your conclusion but you're not even knowledgeable enough to understand that.
This is what happens when you trust information from people who are only interested in driving you to certain political beliefs.
The sad thing about my friends who took their retirement savings out of the stock market out of distress over Trump’s win is that they really needed the money to retire. It’s really not funny what TDS does to people and how it harms them.
If some fools took Krugman seriously and bailed when Trump was elected, imagine the wealth exit if Sanders is. Hell..if Biden is.
I learned something about Trump through business litigation in the eighties. I was surprised to learn that he owned stuff directly, not through the protection of a corporate form.
I've always stayed in the market. But that doesn't mean my investments have been like the NY Times under Trump. (Of course if I had invested in the NY Times during the first GWB term ... You never know.)
BTW, if you actually read the NYT right after Trump’s election, the very last thing you would do, if you believed the paper, was buy NYT stock.
“We are very probably looking at a global recession, with no end in sight.”
That was New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, making a prediction on Election Night in 2016 about what we could expect under President Trump.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/6/the-strong-economy-proves-democrats-wrong-yet-agai/
So tell me again why you trust them so much? Did the Mueller report shake your faith, even a tiny bit? It’s all tribalism that keeps you defending them, isn’t it. We are yucky and you don’t want to be on the same side. It’s OK to admit it. We are deplorable, we know, Hillary broke the bad news to us!
"I'm not interested in Trump's tax returns because I don't trust anyone to understand and explain them accurately."
Ha ha ha! What a ludicrous assertion.
Someone will understand and explain them accurately. You just don't trust yourself to figure out whom.
Congratulations! Your mindset is a perfect illustration of the right-wing condition: Deciding that important things should be dismissed because they can't figure out how to educate themselves on them.
"Richard burr, after mark warner having played him for a fool"
He's not "Fool" he's a RINO. Just like Flake. Why people keep nominating these Democrats and Swamp creatures in Republican clothing is beyond me.
So basically you are saying that they have a stong economic interest in keeping this whole anti-Trump thing going? Kind of like MSNBC was making so much munny munny munny over the Russa hoax.
Michael K said...
The Democrats are totally controlled surreptitiously by Russia in order to divide America.
I dunno. I tend to think they are funded by Mexican drug cartels. Why else do they refuse to deal with the border ?
They are following the Russian playbook but it is probably stupidity, rather than malice.
The only question is who is paying better this minute.
The real story here is that someone at the IRS gave copies of Trump's personal tax returns to the NYT.
That’s jail time. Anyone remember IRS employees looking at Barbra StreiSAND’s tax returns?
“We’ve got him now…. as soon as people understand: fixed asset depreciation schedules; and if the assets were depreciated legally using straight line or diminishing balance; then we move to whole-value equity pick-up, or minority interest accounting; before digging into section 1031 ‘like-kind’ asset exchanges; partnerships (limited or writ large), carried interest loopholes, pass-throughs, net capital losses/gains, seven-year income averaging and the difference between long-term and short-term capital gains”…
My never-Trump neighbor, who has a portfolio worth around $1M, and who regularly sells off stocks that turned into duds at a loss in order to realize the loss against his gains, doesn't think Trump should be able to claim losses, nor carry losses forward.
I told him that he (my neighbor) does, that I have, that the tax law permits it, so why shouldn't Trump's accountants do the same?
His answer? Trump shouldn't be able to claim losses, nor carry them forward, because Trump is rich, which I read, "Because it's Trump, and I don't like him."
He's currently slogging through the Mueller Report hoping to find the pony.
Flat tax.
Just another argument.
Deciding that important things
Why are Trump’s tax returns important? He’s been a good president, not perfect, but good. This is job interview stuff and he already has the job.
Harry Reid lied about Mitt. Why should we believe democrats?
Let me guess. Readering and Be both have public sector jobs. Entrepeneurs take risks. They band together with other entrepenuers to spread the risk around. When they suceed cool stuff happens like Tesla. When they fail they're a bunch os schmucks.
535 tax returns should be released.
The IRS transcripts is what the NYT got. That’s an internal IRS document. Not a tax return prepared by an accountant.
Someone will understand and explain them accurately. You just don't trust yourself to figure out whom.
Lolol. My accountant fought the IRS and won. I have a friend whose a CPA and fought the IRS and won a few times for her clients.
Buffet might still be arguing with the IRS about I think $2 billion.
The IRS can’t explain their work accurately. Why should we believe them?
I was surprised to learn that he owned stuff directly, not through the protection of a corporate form.
Neither LLCs nor LLPs are corporations.
Further:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-02/trump-tax-returns-deutsche-bank
"In all, Deutsche Bank extended more than $300 million in loans to Trump from 2012 to 2015, including $170 million for construction of a hotel on the site of Washington’s Old Post Office. That would suggest the president’s finances were judged to be strong, whatever his net worth.
Deutsche Bank structured the subsequent funding as recourse loans, meaning that the bank could come after Trump’s personal assets in the event of default."
The reference to recourse loans shows the loans were actually made to a business entity. If the loans had been made directly to Trump his personal assets would already have been at risk. It's quite clear the writer is lumping Trump personally and his business interests together as one unit. There is nothing wrong with his doing so either as the distinction is meaningless for his purpose and this a common practice. The only confusion comes from people who understand nothing about their subject but regardless insist it must conform to their politically motivated conspiracy theories.
The IRS can’t explain their work accurately. Why should we believe them?
Perfect reason why the returns should be released. Clearly the public will be more fair to him in their assessment of his obligations than the IRS, no?
Oh, that's right. You hate democracy and distrust the public, too.
Carry on.
I don't have any f&f with much invested, who did anything that I know of with their holdings, though most of them seemed to think Trump was the harbinger of depression and war.
My late mother worked for the IRS and one year she came across a neighbor's return--a neighbor my mother didn't care for. She just had to tell my brothers and me how much Mr S made--as if any of us cared or would recall an hour later. It made me angry. This was about 1975 or so.
Narr
She had many good qualities but discretion wasn't her forte.
The only confusion comes from people who understand nothing about their subject but regardless insist it must conform to their politically motivated conspiracy theories.
Like Ritmo who knows nothing. Except Hamburger U, of course,
Telling the same jokes over and over again ironically makes old farts like Michael K feel like he doesn't have one foot in the grave.
Lack of creativity is a sign of senility. That, and his seething grudges.
I'm talking the period of the NY Times article ('85-94). Wouldn't surprise me if Trump took advantage of LLCs and LLPs when they caught on, just like us lawyers did.
I am amused that Ritmo spends his afternoons, when his shift is over, hovering over the comments. He was back in 30 seconds to complain.
Envy will eat you up when you have no other life,
I don't think anyone who is doing it will play it straight. And that's Trump's reason for not releasing them, isn't it?
@Althouse , yes and yes.
"I'm not interested in Trump's tax returns because I don't trust anyone to understand and explain them accurately."
But the Dems are, obviously to try and abuse confidential information to destroy Trump.
You may not be "interested," but the whole abusive campaign raises the question, once again, at what point the Althouses of America will call BS on the shenanigans once and for all. Did the coup attempt cross the line? The disqualifying lie? The tax absurdity? What do the Dems and their MSM allies have to do to be disqualified as a party?
His answer? Trump shouldn't be able to claim losses, nor carry them forward, because Trump is rich, which I read, "Because it's Trump, and I don't like him."
People who think they deserve special dispensation and are above everyone else are just not likable.
As for Trumpf himself, he promised to get rid of the tax loopholes exploited by real estate developers. He claimed to have special expertise in how those loopholes are exploited, and was therefore the best person to do away with them.
In point of fact, his tax bill removed deductions for tons of other taxable categories, just not the ones he exploited and promised to remove.
Trump is a charlatan. A swindler.
And then on top of that there's the revenue losses resulting from his slashing of the AMT.
Trump just believes that people of means shouldn't contribute to America - let alone "making it great again." He just believes in going after his enemies and using everyone else.
Gee Michael K. For a guy who constantly has to remind himself and everyone else how accomplished he thinks he is, you sure seem to think a lot of people out there are envying you.
Don't worry, Old Timer. You'll be dead soon.
And then, instead of complaining about being successful and envied, you'll complain about not being memorialized significantly.
Oh wait, you won't. You'll be dead.
But I'll make sure to piss on your grave. As often as possible.
Well he isnt anymore astute on this than anything else.
Oh my god Inga is lecturing others on decency.
HaHa! After several weeks of being laughed at while commenting as the crazy Anonymous, she has once again come out of the closet.
Why not just declare him above the law too, Will?
L'etat, c'est moi. Trump is too rich and powerful to be taxed. I think that's what Will is saying. And I'd bet the Trumpkinses basically think that's about right.
Speaking of envy, here's the part where Fullmoon misses the absentee daddy that let the best part of FullMoon dribble down his absentee mommy's legs.
I can see why you want Michael K to be your daddy, cucky full moon. How sad that your biological family doesn't exist in any socially relatable form. The two of you aren't too old to have him adopt you, are you?
What a couple of sad sacks.
TICS has a new name but same lunatic thoughts. What a surprise.
Re: the IRS transcripts- when IRS shows up for an audit they don’t have a copy of your return, they bring the transcript which is just a list of numbers. They’ll ask the preparer how they arrived at a certain number. So if NYT only has the transcripts they only have the totaled figures from schedules and worksheets but not the details. IOW not all that revealing...
I let comment threads ride until I have time to surf them, but then I read trolling crap like Joe (no profile available) Veenstra's initial post, and wish I could have responded in a timely manner. So I'll leave this to Joe's parting sentence.
"I think any thinking person would want to know who he owed money to and how much, and what actions, if any, have taken place that might involve those lenders."
And I think any thinking person would assume that those lenders knew how to take care of their interests without your or your hypothetical any thinking person's (read Trump opponent) help.
If you think my thoughts are unhinged alanc, you should read Moon's and Mike's.
Mike K. wants a son to look up to him and Moon wants a daddy to look up to.
You should accept their lifestyle. It's this blog that brought them together, after all. In their infinite need.
Once foolmoon and ritmo get to chasing each other’s tails... Yeesh. I was just out for a soak in the hot tub, and if life were a novel, it would be no coincidence that I heard a couple of loons calling to each other on the lake, but this is real life, so it was a coincidence.
Ritmo
(REDACTED.....................) I don't really see myself as white or black either; although I would probably pass generally for "white" I don't tend to identify with that assignment either as a demographic category for reasons that probably go beyond the scope of Ann's blog. But I hear your advice and will try to do a better job of seeing (REDACTED......................)
Speaking of envy...
Ritmo a perennial practitioner of rank envy. It shows in his unceasing hostility toward high achievers like Michael K. He has a successful life populated with his successful children. Whereas Ritmo is a childless failure. No woman will have him. No offspring of his will comfort his last days. The only relief he can find is the jejune flamewar he must always pursue lest the abject loneliness of his meaningless life intrudes.
Once foolmoon and ritmo get to chasing each other’s tails... Yeesh. I was just out for a soak in the hot tub, and if life were a novel, it would be no coincidence that I heard a couple of loons calling to each other on the lake, but this is real life, so it was a coincidence.
Loon? I am el Matador!
Ok, I'm gonna quit picking on the little fella, for now.
you sure seem to think a lot of people out there are envying you.<
No, just you because you know a little about biology and are a failure,
Had a nice walk with the dog,.
NYT:
Plan A: Trump is a Russian asset, compromised by Putin!
Plan B: 35 years ago, Trump had some questionable tax write-offs!
House Judiciary Committee:
Plan A: After the Mueller Report, we are going to impeach Trump for being a Russian asset!
Plan B: After the Mueller Report, we are going to hold Barr in contempt for not giving us confidential grand jury testimony to leak!
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah - the Delusional Leftwing Fuckheads continue to march on, in their delusional state...
It’s interesting that the fallback position for lefties is that where there’s smoke there’s fire. Trump MUST be a scumbag. How else did he get his money?
Yet, we KNOW that 4 of the last 5 Democrat Presidents were scumbags. Time for some Whataboutism?
Flat tax.
Just another argument.
No, it's a useless copout and a red herring.
Solyndra received a $535 million U.S. Energy Department loan guarantee, the first recipient of a loan guarantee under President Barack Obama's economic stimulus program, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.[16] While the overall loan program was in the black in 2014, it took a $528 million loss from Solyndra.[17][18] . - Wikipedia
Nobody gave a fuck, did they?
This whole thread is why I don't care about Trump's tax return.
It's like a five penny Ragnarök. And next week we'll have another.
Enough with the end of the world. Let's have some legislation.
I'm talking the period of the NY Times article ('85-94).
‘86 tech crash
‘86 tax reform
‘87 market crash
‘93 recession
What is so hard about this?
JackWayne said...
It’s interesting that the fallback position for lefties is that where there’s smoke there’s fire. Trump MUST be a scumbag. How else did he get his money?
If only it was that honest. They see a swarm of gnats, call it smoke, then wishcast like crazy for the fire.
Nobody said...
Solyndra received a $535 million U.S. Energy Department loan guarantee...
IIRC Something about the Solyndra deal included moving the venture capital interests to the front of the line of creditors when they went bankrupt. Obama's pals were the venture capital investors. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
That was opposite of the GM bond holders that Obama froze out, during the GM bailout. Obama threaten them with the full power of a retaliatory federal govt if they attempted to exercise their legal position in court.
Let's have some legislation.
Oh my God no! This is better than them trying to “fix things!”
Quaestor a perennial practitioner of rank lust. It shows in his unceasing erections toward self-proclaimed high achievers like Michael K. He claims a successful life populated with his successful children - event though they don't love him. Whereas Quaestor is a childless failure who writes unhinged letters to his legislators. No woman will have him. No offspring of his will comfort his last days. The only relief he can find is the jejune flamewar he must always pursue lest the abject loneliness of his meaningless life intrudes.
Tax planning is the art of matching deductions carried forward with the taxable transactions that create taxable events.
The ultimate plan creates new deductions to claim faster than the new taxable events realized at a sale. Just keep assets and re-finance until income is needed to match the deductions. The limit is having a cash flow to support the loans without selling. Doctors and entertainers which includes pro athletes are popular partners in the deals. They put in cash and the developer does the deals.
Loon? I am el Matador!
Nah, you're just a public masturbator. He sees through it and calls you out. Like most people do.
@Nobody -- LOL. Everyone's shooting blanks.
you ....are a failure,
I never knew the definition of a successful physician was someone who looks down and sneers at 95% of the human race. Maybe if I were more of insecure egomaniac like Nearly Dead Michael K. I would relate better to his narrow-minded egomania.
On second thought, that would be boring and tedious.
Blogger Hagar said..."Losses are losses. There is no magic in this. Large losses in one or more years can be saved and offset against large gains in prior or following years according to the tax laws (averaging income?). If you can hold out until the profits show up, that is. Otherwise it is bankruptcy court, which Trump has also been known to make use of. If Congress did not want businesses to make use of these provisions, they presumably would not have been included in the laws."
To clarify, Section 172 of the Internal Revenue Code addresses losses and the carryback and carryover of such, not the income averaging rules were phased out for the most part. The Trump 2017 tax law changes eliminated loss carrybacks (for tax refunds), but still allows carryovers to reduce future taxes paid. Like you said, they are there for a purpose.
Gee Althouse the ghost writer of The Art of The Deal thinks it should be called fiction and the careful reporting by the NYT reveals a bit more
Detail then Trump’s pr bit of bragging on The Apprentice. In any case Trump has shown how the rich beat paying taxes for “sport” while the rest of us working and middle class folks pays thousands in taxes and send our sons and daughters, But of course his bleeding base will continue to vote for the king of con.
Ah finally my woebegone lefty friends on Facebook have finally perked up after being radio silent for the last month. It's been a touch stretch of road since Mueller came up empty. They are "wee weed" up now if I can borrow that phrase from Obama. But isn't this what Scott Adams exemplifies as "selling past the close"? We already knew Trump had a spotty financial record of ups and downs. No one cares. Is this what they are trying to drown out Barr's internal FBI investigation with? They will have to do better, much better.
R/V,
What other rich peoples taxes do you want to see? Also laughing at your conceit that as a self described university professor you are "working and middle class."
In any case Trump has shown how the rich beat paying taxes for “sport” while the rest of us working and middle class folks pays thousands in taxes and send our sons and daughters, But of course his bleeding base will continue to vote for the king of con.
Like most people who have never signed the front of a paycheck, R/V has no idea about taxes or how business is conducted.
As for Ritmo, envy this.
r/v: "Gee Althouse the ghost writer of The Art of The Deal thinks it should be called fiction ..."
Is the ghost writer a billionaire international developer too?
"I think any thinking person would want to know who he owed money to and how much, and what actions, if any, have taken place that might involve those lenders."
But I AM a True Scotsman! And I think that no True Scotsman would believe he has a right to know another man's business (literally and figuratively).
Also, stay away from my underwear drawer, nosey gossip.
"roesch/voltaire said...
In any case Trump has shown how the rich beat paying taxes for “sport” while the rest of us working and middle class folks pays thousands in taxes and send our sons and daughters..."
"rest of us working class" LOL Donald Trump works more in one day than you do in ten. He's not some loser that simply sucks on the teat of the state and would scream bloody murder if forced in any week to work 40 hours.
"us working and middle class folks"
You must be double d delighted with the employment figures, then. Especially for all the minorities at record employment.
Oh, wait, that is because of Obama's policies, right?
HaHaHa! What a jerk.
"Trump has shown how the rich beat paying taxes for “sport”
It's in the tax code, silly person.
If you lost $20 at the track yesterday but then won $20 today, are you up $20 or are you even?
The IRS says you are even and don't owe taxes. It's a device that allows real estate developers roll losses forward to be added/subtracted to the following year's numbers BECAUSE MOST DEALS SPAN A SEVERAL YEAR PERIOD. The practice is LEGAL and COMMON in the industry and everyone has been taking advantage of it, very similar to all those tax deductions you took last month.
I'm not interested in Trump's tax returns because I don't trust anyone to understand and explain them accurately.
I'm not interested in violating the privacy of American citizens, particularly by government force.
"he promised to get rid of... Trump is a charlatan. A swindler."
These are not your own words, you pasted them from somewhere else.
Do you have any thoughts of your own or are you just clocked in at Soros Boiler Room #6 ?
Henry said...
This whole thread is why I don't care about Trump's tax return.
It's like a five penny Ragnarök. And next week we'll have another.
Enough with the end of the world. Let's have some legislation.
The more a Democrat House of Representatives doesn't legislate- the better off we all are.
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