"Lesbian sex can carry a penalty of up to 10 years in jail, the BBC reports... The new laws stipulate the death penalty for offenses such as rape, adultery and the defamation of the Prophet Muhammad, though the death penalty was already on the books in Brunei and the country has not carried out an execution since 1957.... Ellen DeGeneres, George Clooney and other high-profile celebrities have called for a boycott of Brunei-owned hotels in protest of these additions to the penal code. Brunei Investment Agency, a government-owned corporation founded by 72-year-old Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, owns luxury hotels across the U.S., U.K. and Europe, including both the Beverly Hills Hotel and Hotel Bel-Air in Los Angeles, The Dorchester in London and Hotel Principe di Savoia in Milan.... Brunei released a statement on Saturday defending the laws, saying the penal code criminalizes and deters acts against the teaching of Islam and 'aims to educate, respect and protect the legitimate rights of all individuals, society or nationality of any faiths and race.'"
From "Death By Stoning Among Punishments In New Brunei Anti-LGBT, Criminal Laws" (NPR).
There's a phrase, "legitimate rights."
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२५५ टिप्पण्या:
255 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»Nice "religion of peace" ya got there.
But we must respect all other cultures. Well, except for traditional conservative American culture. That MUST be destroyed.
Sounds like our old testament discussion the other day.
I've met expats that spent time there. The pathetic part is that the royal family has a history of leading the most hedonistic life style on the planet. The Shariah law there is used as a political weapon, as opposed to devotion to Islam. It makes the Saudi regime seem saintly.
Just like here n'Merica.
The unique beauty of the Constitution and amendments is that it enumerates rights taken as absolute. They are neither given by, nor can they be taken by the government.
There are your "legitimate rights".
From an Instapundit post.
TENNESSEE STATE SENATOR: If you’re going on about multiculturalism, then respect our damn culture.
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/326460/
Ellen DeGeneres, George Clooney and other high-profile celebrities have called for a boycott of
Made their day.
Those hotels all of copies of Gideon’s Koran in the top drawer of the nightstand
Brunei's interpretation of Islamic law now imposes death by stoning as a punishment for sex between men... Lesbian sex can carry a penalty of up to 10 years in jail, the BBC reports...
Our interpretation of that difference is they only show a lesbian soft-core porn on the premium cable channels.
Sorry gay dudes.
My advice: Don't go there.
I'd assume they mean relations outside of gay marriage.
What about men & boys? Men and goats?
I thought we were supposed to respect cultures different from our own. I guess Clooney and de Generes are just Islamophobic.
I thought rock beat scissoring.
I sure am glad we've got a BDS movement going here. Oops, sorry. That's against the one country where LGBT people are NOT in this sort of danger. I am not usually with George Clooney (except when he was Ulysses Everett McGill), but I am with him on this.
This is just black-and-white Islamic law based expressly on the Qur'an and the hadiths. That people are shocked at this is simply a measure of how poorly educated they are on Islam. Of course, as soon as they learn these truths about Islam, they're instantly transformed into being Islamophobes.
The phrase from the Declaration of Independence is
"endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
I am puzzled by the article questioning "legitimate rights"; "legitimate" simply means "made legal". By that definition, what rights are legal in Brunei are legitimate.
The problem for atheists and utilitarians is that they have no source for their rights--they have no source to "give" them rights except the law, which is fickle, no?
Maybe Jussie Smolett and Petey Buttplug should go there and tell them that history is not on their side.
Islam. Now there's a "religion" for you. Rather than make stringent, even impossible moral demands on its followers, it tells them that the Creator of The Universe wants them to do exactly what any 7th-century Bedouin wife-beater and pederast wants to do anyway.
No wonder it's so popular among the two-digit IQ demographic worldwide.
Everyone knows that rights come from the UN!
The Abode of Peace, baby. Just watch your step, and don't take a walk on the wild side.
Wait--this is on Borneo. What's with all the Arab names? Oh, yeah. Cultural appropriation.
Brunei in fact is very much nicer to visit than Saudi.
The laws are not enforced with a heavy hand, the streets are very safe, the people are friendly and on the whole quite unstressed. This is very nearly an ideal despotism.
I think it's important to point out that these new laws in no way represent Islam, and there is no reason to be concerned that immigrants moving from this part of the world to Western countries might bring these ideas with them.
But we all know that Brunei and newly elected Judge Hagedorn are exactly the same. Right? Maybe Hollywood should boycott Wisconsin too.
This isn't really new is it? I think the law is like this in most Muslim countries. Is there really a "liberal" Muslim country? It's one of the interesting things, I think, how immune Muslim countries are to the influence of the West, when it comes to cultural issues, at least officially anyway. Mohammed doesn't have to go to the Mountain, it comes to him.
The world is complicated and harbors many philosophies.
That some foreign society has a different concept of rights, or anything else, should not disturb an educated person.
Apologies for straying slightly off-topic:
I'm beginning to see the basis for the green-red alliance: both sides favor "legitimate rights." Guns, speech, free exercise: not "legitimate." SSM, pot, no death penalty: "legitimate." For progs anyway.
Of course, they don't exactly agree on the sodomy part. After all, Tony K notwithstanding, Allah has long since determined the Meaning of the Universe. At some point, you'd think, the contradictions will be forced. But for now, the Muslim Other is too useful in domestic politics.
Coming to London and Minneapolis soon.
The most important thing we can do in the face of these things is to state in no uncertain terms whether we stand with or against George Clooney.
Wasn't "legitimate rights" the term of art used by Justice Kennedy to overturn the state constitutional amendments that were passed overwhelmingly by the citizens of Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee governing their states' marriage laws?
Maybe I am mistaken about Justice Kennedy's chosen phrase. Perhaps it wasn't "legitimate rights." Maybe it was "fundamental rights." In any event, neither phrase exists in the U.S. Constitution. (Not that Brunei, or Anthony Kennedy, always care about what is in the U.S. Constitution.)
Perhaps Brunei should bring back The White Rajahs
gspencer said...
"This is just black-and-white Islamic law based expressly on the Qur'an and the hadiths. That people are shocked at this is simply a measure of how poorly educated they are on Islam."
Actually, up until leftist history began, which was sometime this morning, pointing this out would have earned you the title of Islamophobe by these same characters who now want to boycott some five star hotels.
The phrase "legitimate rights" implies the existence of illegitimate rights, which one supposes are rights some people claim to possess but governments are not obliged to respect. The concept is well-understood and is foundational to the Democratic Party. Just ask a Bernie supporter about the Second Amendment and you'll get an earful about illegitimate rights.
And one wonders why some people express a fear or revulsion of Islamic theology and doctrine - is it Islamophobia or just rational thought? I guess Linda Sarsour and Rep Omar can tell us how wonderful this system is and why we need more of it. In the UK now there is a huge movement by Muslim parents to shut down any lessons about gay “tolerance” in lessons.
This is the norm where Islam reigns unchallenged and no “personality” on the left has the gumption to call it out. Clooney is being savaged by his progressive buddies. So what is the choice - gays or Muslims. Hmmm. Who has the most votes?
The "white rajahs" ruled Sarawak, which is a different place, way off to the west.
There is a movement online that has been repeatedly referred to as The Dark Enlightenment, of which I consider myself a part...
One of our continuously discussed themes is the idea that the current liberal world order - established after WWI and WWII - has pushed much too far on a wide array of social topics and policies that, quite frankly, the vast majority of humanity - even in the Western world - were not and are not (and likely will not be for a quite some time) ready to completely bust down the gates for ever and for all time.
I and many others are quite convinced that this open-ended/no-restrictions and full-embrace of some of these social aberrations (like homosexuality) could actually be the eventual undoing of the liberal world order, and there is much evidence to suggest that it could be.
"Social issues" liberals do not and can not grasp that the world's disgust threshold - although much diminished in the West - remains quite vigorous for 85% of the world's population...and that it is very very far from shifting any time soon. The cultural relativism they embrace is NOT EMBRACED by most of the world's people and they are not interested in Western concepts of tolerance in the same way.
One day, perhaps soon, the tolerance "social issues" liberals espouse open-endedly will be met with vehement - perhaps violent - opposition and their reaction will be complete and utter shock as they try to wrap their heads around why their tolerance is not met with reciprocity.
I imagine their reaction will be close to @Nobody's Avatar image...dumbfounded...shock...and terror.
...death by stoning as a punishment for sex between men... Lesbian sex can carry a penalty of up to 10 years in jail...
Women hardest hit. Except, you know, by the rocks...
Conversely, any visitor or immigrant to the US is obliged by both manners and convention to respect the philosophies and mores of the natives. This is in fact an Islamic precept, for Muslims peacefully resident in non-Muslim lands. They are obliged not to make waves, unless attacked or oppressed.
The trouble is that, well, in the long run this does not work.
Yes, but Trump is so mean!
OK - ten years for lesbian sex. But what do you get for hot girl on girl action?
"I thought we were supposed to respect cultures different from our own. I guess Clooney and de Generes are just Islamophobic."
They're supposed to find someone (preferably someone claiming to be Muslim) to say, "that's not the real Islam." Then all the 'allies' can wisely nod their heads and intone, "Yes, truly, that's not true Islam."
So, problem solved, nothing to see here, moveon, moveon.
They are obliged not to make waves, unless attacked or oppressed.
LOL, it’s so hard to find a pretext to claim oppression, isn’t it?
I've long boycotted all the luxury hotels owned by Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah. Nice to see Hollywood celebs finally joining me.
“But we all know that Brunei and newly elected Judge Hagedorn are exactly the same. Right? Maybe Hollywood should boycott Wisconsin too.
Just like nice “normal people”, eh?
“Hagedorn, a judge on the state Court of Appeals, gave speeches in 2015, 2016 and 2017 to Alliance Defending Freedom, earning more than $1,000 each time, according to his campaign and his filings with ethics regulators. Last year, the group covered at least $50 in travel expenses for him for a speaking engagement, according to Hagedorn's campaign.
Alliance Defending Freedom is a Christian legal organization based in Arizona that handles high-profile cases. It unsuccessfully challenged a Wisconsin law that allowed gay couples to form domestic partnerships.
Alliance Defending Freedom... it has supported criminalizing sodomy, linked homosexuality to pedophilia and unsuccessfully argued in favor of European laws that required transgender people to get sterilized to obtain identity documents listing the name and gender they wanted.
Hagedorn has drawn attention in recent weeks for founding a Christian school in 2016 that allows the firing of teachers for being gay and the expulsion of students if they or their parents are gay.
Milwaukee Journal Sentinal
It takes a heart of stone not to laugh hysterically at Clooney and Degenerate as they check into the Beverly Hills hotel.
Do I get stoned if I said - hypothetically, that is - that Mohammed was a bad guy?
Yes, because not wanting gays to be put in a position of power over your children to indoctrinate them directly with the gay agenda (after observing that that IS what they in fact do in classrooms across the nation) is exactly the same as wanting to stone them to death. Exactly.
Well played, Inga!
I'm trying to care, but I don't. This is a problem for rich, elite, Americans that can afford to travel to Brunei or afford a night stay at the Beverly Hills hotel (which doesn't enforce such laws). The same people excited about this are also boycotting Israel, which doesn't support Sharia law. They also call me an Islamophobe and Deplorable; for not supporting Sharia law.
I am happy two loving woman can express their love for each other in Brunei without fear of death. Or should I oppose the lack of equality of sexes in Brunei?
Reminder for our cultural betters: Alliance Defending Freedom has argued nine cases before the Supreme Court and won all nine cases. Some hate group.
I've often thought that a little Shariah law every once in a while might be a good thing. There, I said it.
“I am happy two loving woman can express their love for each other in Brunei without fear of death. Or should I oppose the lack of equality of sexes in Brunei?”
“Lesbian sex can carry a penalty of up to 10 years in jail, the BBC reports.”
Meh, what’s 10 years in jail?
Joe Biden recently came out and said that Mike Pence was a nice man. Mike Pence IS a nice man.
Teh LBGQT mob forced and shamed Joe to recant. Joe, being the coward, did.
Who are the real mind-crime fascists?
“Some hate group.”
“Alliance Defending Freedom... it has supported criminalizing sodomy.”
I guess that a sexual act between consenting adults warrants being a “crime”?
George Clooney’s genius idea is to cause pain to the Sultan by screwing the maids, bartenders, parking attendants, pool boys, wait staff, grounds keepers, cooks, front desk clerks, sales staff, bellhops, engineerings staff, telephone operators, concerierge staff, the lot. These are the people the Democrats, Progs, Lefties proport to love.
George and ilk are dim.
When will these ultra wealthy leftwing hollywooders put their money where their mouth is, leave the comfort of their walled and gated mansions - and go do something about it?
when? BS #hashtag protesting# from the comfort of a sound stage is all sorts of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Meh, what’s 10 years in jail?
In an all-women’s prison?
The stuff some lesbian fantasies are made of.
MAGA Sheep's whet dream
Islam is a religion of peace.
If you tightly adhere to every possible interpretation of every tenet, they might leave you in peace.
So if you adopt a child from Brunei you should raise them with the concepts of 'their culture', and -- as responsible parents -- stone them to death if they announce that they are gay?
I am Laslo.
Could be worse.
The Islamists could run around yelling “the science is settled!” whenever their beliefs were questioned.
Islamists gonna be Islamists.
Is there really a "liberal" Muslim country?
Well Turkey was pretty liberal for a while...but that is going away now. Dubai is the Arabic version of Las Vegas, so a lot of stuff is overlooked there that would get you imprisoned or stoned in any other Islamic country.
I guess that a sexual act between consenting adults warrants being a “crime”?
Well it’s certainly not as criminal as being elected President from the wrong party.
I guess that a sexual act between consenting adults warrants being a “crime”?
For most of civilization for most of history? Certainly. Robert Kraft would tell you that some still are.
So why do the Democrats oppose publishing cartoons depicting Mohammed?
“What about men & boys? Men and goats?”
I always thought that part weird about Islam. Apparently it is ok for Muslim men to have anal sex with other males, until those other males hit puberty, and at that point, it is a death penalty case. Which is just the opposite of what we have here, where it becomes legal when the partner legally becomes an adult. Not a fan of male on male sex (I am of the “God invented vaginas for a reason” crowd), but I like our system better. I guess that allowing beastiality makes sense if you look at it from the point of view that the mutual consent is what makes the conduct sinful in Islam. Neither goats nor prepubescent boys are considered capable of consent, and therefore cannot refuse consent.
The penalty for lesbian sex is ten more years of lesbian sex?
“I've often thought that a little Shariah law every once in a while might be a good thing. There, I said it.”
You won’t like it so much when you get 30 lashes for eating your morning bacon.
“The penalty for lesbian sex is ten more years of lesbian sex?”
As long as these horny lezzies get some pussy, it’s all good, eh? Loss of freedom is nothing at all.
It's a Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice world. #HateLovesAbortion
“The penalty for lesbian sex is ten more years of lesbian sex?”
Of course, that means another 10 year sentence. Rinse and repeat. Which may mean a life sentence for many lesbos.
“As long as these horny lezzies get some pussy, it’s all good, eh? Loss of freedom is nothing at all.”
Given the choice between being stoned and being locked up with the preferred gender of sex partner, I think that most would prefer the latter.
This has to be the dumbest thread this blog has seen. At least top 10.
It is really hard to tell when people are joking about imposing their religious views on others using the monopoly on state power.
Anti-sodomy laws are about halfway down the slippery slope of stupidity with Brunei at the bottom.
But many here want the government to have the power to define marriage then are surprised when it isn't defined how they want it to be.
So stupidity is...
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
-Leviticus 20:13
n.n said...
It's a Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice, Pro-Choice world. #HateLovesAbortion
If you rely on power to accomplish your goals, you make yourself vulnerable to a greater power.
If you give the state the power to ban abortion, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate abortion.
Get people to church.
Convince them there is a better way. Big Church. Small State.
God you people are dense.
I like it when Inga and Achilles are on the same side
The beatification of gays, and the false history of the great persecution of the gays in the West is just as brutally stupid as the treatment of gays in Islamic societies.
Gay men proved that the stereotype of gay men is true. They ignited the AIDs epidemic that has killed 37 million to date.
Althouse, rather lamely, refuses to acknowledge this. She doesn't pander to the bullshit that the AIDs epidemic is the fault of straight men, as postulated by "Brokeback Mountain" and "The Band Played On." She just won't discuss the subject.
Societies do need to protect themselves against the devastating public health risks posed by the behavior gay men.
Both the Western and the Islam doctrines in re gays are fucking lies. Althouse, when are you going to confront the 37 million dead as a result of the actions of gay men during your lifetime? Not to mention the billions of taxpayer dollars spent to try to keep them alive?
We are living thru a biblical plague as a result of the actions of gay men. Why keep pretending otherwise? In the West, we've just agreed to foot the bill for the destructive behavior of gay men. Innocents continue to die as a result, but who gives a shit about them?
As long as these horny lezzies get some pussy, it’s all good, eh? Loss of freedom is nothing at all.
Hey baby, lighten up — you sound like you need a Brunei vacation.
"But we must respect all other cultures. Well, except for traditional conservative American culture. That MUST be destroyed."
What is "traditional conservative American culture"?
I remember brunei, from the iran contra matter when the then sultan, tried to provide a contribution, to the resistance, and fawn hall mixed up the bank accounts,
the sultan was satirized in peter benchley's q clearance as a fire worshiper, which sensible people entertained because of the oil, you know who doesn't get 1/1000th of the press, the emir of Qatar, which gives 15 million to brookings which finances militias from the subcontinent to north Africa, I wonder why that is,
What is "traditional conservative American culture"?
You wouldn't know, Cookie. Take everything you believe and choose the opposite. That might be a fair sample.
"Nice 'religion of peace' ya got there."
Don't conflate "peace" with "happiness," "harmony," or other good feelings - peace can come through harmony and agreement or through overwhelming force against which no one dare rise. Not sure they are shooting for the first of these...
(I am of the “God invented vaginas for a reason” crowd)
(God created) or (Natural Selection evolved) anuses that have major sphincter muscles that seal leakage of fecal material from the distal colon. When objects of any type are thrust into the anus and colon from the outside, the very frequent result is tearing and hemorrhaging that may result in serious complications. The anus just wasn't created or evolved for sexual intercourse.
But there will always be, I suppose, groups of people who just don't know what to do with their genitalia.
"Yes, because not wanting gays to be put in a position of power over your children to indoctrinate them directly with the gay agenda (after observing that that IS what they in fact do in classrooms across the nation)...."
Examples, please.
Michael K.
If you can't answer the question, don't pretend to.
Apparently deplorables don't understand the linkage between one monotheistic traditional conservative culture and another. The USA is the first liberal democracy. Conservatives are just free riders.
That some foreign society has a different concept of rights, or anything else, should not disturb an educated person.
Please tell that to all the Progressives lurking here.
Thank you
@Cook
The Protestant churches in my area are all dying. They are dying because of the schism over gay and female pastors.
The Methodist Church has, in particular, been devastated. Their congregations have simply walked out rather than accept gay and female pastors. Churches that once drew 100 people to services are lucky now to draw 10.
The Episcopal Church has also been devastated by this schism. Half the congregation walked out. The Episcopal Church continues to survive on its endowment from decades ago.
The vast majority of people who are Christians attend services because they want their children educated in traditional Christian family doctrine and because they want their children to produce blood grandchildren.
The gay attempt to take over the churches in order to indoctrinate people in gaydom has been suicidal. There's your example.
I know you don't give a shit. This is the result you wanted. You're a Marxist. Destruction of tradition and religion is your goal.
Gay men in Brunei should follow the Pelosi Doctrine: act like each of you has a cold, and stay at arm's length.
If a guy's cock is longer than arm's-length, then I guess you'll have to weigh the dilemma.
I am Laslo.
@Gerry:
But there will always be, I suppose, groups of people who just don't know what to do with their genitalia.
True. But then again, lots of straight people engage in anal sex as well. And the mouth is similarly not designed for sex, so I suppose straight men will be foregoing blowjobs in the interest of nature/god. And come to think of it, nature/god has designed human beings to reproduced around age 12 or 13. How good of an idea is that?
@Robert Cook:
What is "traditional conservative American culture"?
Anglo-protestantism
Neither goats nor prepubescent boys are considered capable of consent, and therefore cannot refuse consent.
Sex with donkeys is dangerous. Sometimes, you don't even get to mount before the hellfire arrives.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"Yes, because not wanting gays to be put in a position of power over your children to indoctrinate them directly with the gay agenda (after observing that that IS what they in fact do in classrooms across the nation)...."
Examples, please.
Cooke is of the opinion that gay teachers instruct their students that gays are not to be fully integrated into society.
Michael K.
If you can't answer the question, don't pretend to.
I just don't speak your language on culture.
The anus just wasn't created or evolved for sexual intercourse.
Oh fer fuck’s sake.
You have a legitimate right to free speech, but not to hate speech--and I determine what hate speech is.
I find it interesting that this is characterized as anti-LGBT, yet heterosexual fornication and adultery are also punished.
You need to find a better parish that is a better fit for you.
I'm Catholic and happy with that.
I'm also a professional church musician. I've played for every denomination and type of congregation over the years... Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopalian... you name it. I play for whoever pays me, and I don't care whether the pastor is gay or female.
Oddly, despite what you might hear, the Catholic Church is weathering the storm better than every other denomination. One of the reasons is that attendance at Sunday services is compulsory if you are serious about the faith.
What will destroy the Church is caving into the left's demands for openly gay and female priests. That will be the end.
So if you adopt a child from Brunei you should raise them with the concepts of 'their culture', and -- as responsible parents -- stone them to death if they announce that they are gay?
Deft application, Laslo. ;-)
the culture has been transformed, every abomination, is insisted upon, it is the time of 2 timothy,
"The unique beauty of the Constitution and amendments is that it enumerates rights taken as absolute. They are neither given by, nor can they be taken by the government."
No, they are not defined as absolute. They are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". If you don't have a "Creator", you don't have any rights, much less rights that can be alienated from you.
You can legally define rights--those are the legitimate rights (which don't conversely define "illegitimate rigths")--but they are capriciously defined and easily lost through redefinition.
Joe
Achilles wails: If you give the state the power to ban abortion, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate abortion.
If you give the state power to ban infanticide, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate infanticide. Is that how it works, Achilles? I used to think you had more sense.
I'm wondering about that "sex between men and adultery" thing. How DOES that work?
Howard said...
I like it when Inga and Achilles are on the same side
No. Her next breath will be calling me an Islamophobic racist. Because leftists are stupid enough to think Islam is a race.
There is a reason the leftists are hellbent on importing as many muslims and various people from poor backwards cultures as possible.
Inga wants to destroy freedom. She pretends to decry these illiberal laws, then cheers when her little brownshirt allies beat up a conservative somewhere.
So no. This is tangential at best.
The Catholic Church has been a refuge for gay men and women for centuries. Easily a third of the priests I've met in decades of work in the Church are gay. The convents were always full of lesbians.
The media deliberately distorts the teaching of the Church, out of bizarre hatred born of the belief that the Church somehow gets in the way of people screwing.
The teaching of the Church is that sex is only for the purposes of procreation within sanctified marriage. Hetero adulterers are sinners, in the same way that gays are sinners.
Virtually nobody entirely lives up to the standard teachings of the Church. It's an ideal to strive for.
I see no mention of the penalty for being a pedo.
Guess Mo-Mo was OK wit dat.
are these progressive churches growing, no they are dying as well, so much for that theory, only the ones who follow the Word are,
Meanwhile, scientist are being driven from the West by superstitious “woke” activists who demand loyalty oaths and fealty to their religious beliefs about gender and racial identity over accurate science.
https://quillette.com/2019/04/01/activists-must-stop-harassing-scientists/
frequent result is tearing and hemorrhaging that may result in serious complications
OTOH, childbirth was fatal often enough that you wonder why women didn't just take it in the bum. Good thing most women want babies so badly.
Does a male Praying Mantis know he's going to die after sex?
I see no mention of the penalty for being a pedo.
Guess Mo-Mo was OK wit dat.
You betcha! The Quran promises that, in Paradise, There will circulate among them young boys made eternal. When you see them, you would think them [as beautiful as] scattered pearls.
“Given the choice between being stoned and being locked up with the preferred gender of sex partner, I think that most would prefer the latter.”
So they should just shut up and be grateful?
“Hey baby, lighten up — you sound like you need a Brunei vacation.”
Ok baby, you go first and tell me how you like it.
mockturtle said...
Achilles wails: If you give the state the power to ban abortion, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate abortion.
If you give the state power to ban infanticide, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate infanticide. Is that how it works, Achilles? I used to think you had more sense.
You: "I used to think you had more sense."
Me: *sigh/eyeroll...*
I will try to avoid mocking you as your comment does to me with your stupid straw man argument I didn't make.
Have you given up the "Life starts at conception" nonsense?
You can make the case you are protecting the life of a viable child at some point during the pregnancy.
That is using reason.
But banning all abortion using a religious interpretation of when life begins opens you up to stupid shit like killing survivors of abortion if the woman wants it.
What principle is your abortion law based on? If it is protecting the life of a viable child it is a principle that you will get near unanimous support for.
If you base it on a principle that a small percentage of the population holds, like Life begins at conception, you are opening yourself up to the inevitable event someone else bases a law on the principle a woman always has control of her body that is also held by a small percentage of the people.
The government should really not be involved unless it has a very large consensus of the citizens behind it.
it's a factor, not predominant, but it doesn't matter as one found out with the sisters of the poor, and the justice department, there is a space for social justice at an individual level, but the government wants to mandate that role, and every institution that does not conform must be destroyed, so everyone worships the state,
Actually, Achilles, my objection to abortion is based more on science than on religion.
that has been the law of the land for nearly 50 years, there is no federalism allowed here, which is what a pre roe legal regime would entail, same with affirmative action, it must be permanent and ever present, no behavior conforms, except those factions that don't,
@joshbraid:
You can legally define rights--those are the legitimate rights (which don't conversely define "illegitimate rigths")--but they are capriciously defined and easily lost through redefinition.
And of course, rights are not inalienable. They are alienated all the time through the law. That is the inherent contradiction of the Constitution. How do you reconcile natural rights with consent by the governed, or Jon Stuart Mill described it, the "tyranny of the majority."
What is "traditional conservative American culture"?
Individuality, freedom, adventure, self-determination and motivation, taking pleasure from your own choices and connections.
All those things you hate.
“I find it interesting that this is characterized as anti-LGBT, yet heterosexual fornication and adultery are also punished.”
You don’t think that fundamentalists of all religions wouldn’t punish heterosexual fornication too, given the chance. It’s fundamentalism that drives these extremist views.
Have you given up the "Life starts at conception" nonsense?
You can make the case you are protecting the life of a viable child at some point during the pregnancy.
That is using reason.
But banning all abortion using a religious interpretation of when life begins opens you up to stupid shit like killing survivors of abortion if the woman wants it.
Are you trying to make the argument that science says life does not begin at conception? Because that is perhaps the most ignorant thing I have read this year. Elementary biology states that life begins at conception.
How do you reconcile natural rights with consent by the governed, or Jon Stuart Mill described it, the "tyranny of the majority."
You create a system of government that seeks to maximize individual freedom while minimizing the dangers of democracy.....which is precisely what our Founders attempted to do.
well that was the premise when they were admitted into the seminaries, it didn't work out terribly well, and there was no enforcement of said rules, this why we found ourselves, here,
the excrudence of kevin smith's dogma, isn't too far from the thin gruel that megapastors like joel osteen, offer self improvement in the form of faith,
But in the House of Islam, they believe on to death, and they enforce heresy with the zeal of a Tudor monarch, also the Chinese are backing Brunei, so they really need not worry,
My understanding is that Trump had the Koran revised as a test of what Putin has planned for the United States. The Handmaid’s Tale was just the beginning folks, and no, I am not crazy. Why would you think that?
@gahrie:
You create a system of government that seeks to maximize individual freedom while minimizing the dangers of democracy.....which is precisely what our Founders attempted to do.
Oh, I agree that they attempted to do that. But I think they failed, and failure likely would have been inevitable. Proper conservatism, in my opinion, should be highly skeptical of natural rights.
And of course, rights are not inalienable. They are alienated all the time through the law.
These rights are not being alienated but rather violated.
The days when we could all get together and tut tut what is going on there are past. One side here insists on blaming the other for everything bad that happens in the world. But don’t worry, one day a “uniter” will come along that will patch up all the hatred bred by the insults and false charges.
their blood will be on their own heads
Is that the extreme version of "If sex isn't dirty, you're not doing it right" ?
yes, you are, sad really:
https://babylonbee.com/news/man-arrested-attempting-to-smuggle-chick-fil-a-sandwich-into-san-antonio-airport
Clooney and Degeneres are Islamophobes. Who knew?
When Bill Maher told Clooney what sharia meant Clooney called him a bigot.
Oh, I agree that they attempted to do that. But I think they failed, and failure likely would have been inevitable. Proper conservatism, in my opinion, should be highly skeptical of natural rights.
I believe that all humans have inherent rights. I believe the fundamental purpose of government should be to protect those rights. I believe that constitutional republics with free market capitalism are the best means of protecting those rights.
As the saying goes, republics and capitalism are sub optimal systems, but they're better than any of the alternatives.
Human evolution begins at conception. There is an alternative belief, including spontaneous conception a.k.a. "viability" or the time of convenience, profitablity, etc., that has been normalized by people with a Twilight faith (i.e. conflation of logical domains) and a Pro-Choice religious/moral philosophy. In Stork They Trust.
“And of course, rights are not inalienable. They are alienated all the time through the law.”
“These rights are not being alienated but rather violated.”
Rick doesn’t know the meaning of alienation, apparently. If someone’s rights are taken away from them, they have been alienated.
priorities, priorities,
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-government-hunted-for-person-who-leaked-omar-khadrs-10-5m-settlement-payment-internal-report-reveals
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them
Proper American conservatism.
Have you given up the "Life starts at conception" nonsense?
It’s amazing to me how ignorant of the limitations of science and the ramifications of philosophy people are who nonetheless make grand pronouncements about what is and is not nonsense. The word is ‘abort’ not ‘annul.’ You should look up it’s meaning.
the attendant irony, of the Babylon bee link, was the former mayors of Chicago, then Emmanuel and menino, were fine with taking quradawi's calls, who recommended chosing the proper stone,
you create a system of government that seeks to maximize individual freedom while minimizing the dangers of democracy.....which is precisely what our Founders attempted to do.
You've left out the prerogatives and jealousies of the state governments that were exponentially more important to them than to us.
"Rick doesn’t know the meaning of alienation, apparently.”
This is the kind of stuff you get when somebody on the lower side of the D/K line tries to join the conversation. It’s pointless to try to explain a subtle point to her.
If someone’s rights are taken away from them, they have been alienated.
Your rights cannot be taken away from you, they can only be violated. This is the entire point of calling them inalienable.
Your assertion simply assumes the conclusion [If someone's rights are taken away...] rather than evaluating the facts [whether someone's rights can be taken away] thus assuming you've proven something you haven't. It's pathetic you can't even get step one right.
@Ken B:
When Bill Maher told Clooney what sharia meant Clooney called him a bigot.
I believe you're thinking about Ben Affleck, not Goerge Clooney, but I could be wrong. I haven't watched Maher in quite a while.
You've left out the prerogatives and jealousies of the state governments that were exponentially more important to them than to us.
Not all of us. In my opinion one of the greatest mistakes in our republic's history is the minimizing of the role of the states. If I was made king for a day, the first two things I would do would be to repeal the 17th Amendment and restore federalism.
“Your rights cannot be taken away from you, they can only be violated. This is the entire point of calling them inalienable.”
So “inalienable rights” is a fallacy, because they most certainly can be alienated. A lesbian female is born in Brunei, she has sexual relations with another woman, she is sent to jail for 10 years. It was her inalienable right not to be jailed for her biological sexual drives. Or maybe only Americans have inalienable rights?
Gotta shake one’s head.
@Rick:
These rights are not being alienated but rather violated.
I take your point, Rick, but I think it's a bit of semantics. But I will concede and say that rights are violated, legally, all the time. Jeremy Bentham and Edmund Burke, not exactly co-thinkers, make a case that natural rights must logically result in anarchism. I am not totally sold on the idea, but it is a persuasive case.
“Proper conservatism, in my opinion, should be highly skeptical of natural rights.”
Indeed, as should all thinking people. But it’s all part of their fundamentalist proclivities.
@gahrie:
I believe that constitutional republics with free market capitalism are the best means of protecting those rights.
Constitutional monarchies seem to have a better track record than constitutional republics. Even American republicanism was pretty thoroughly destroyed in the Civil War. Bentham referred to natural rights as "terrorist language."
So “inalienable rights” is a fallacy, because they most certainly can be alienated.
No they can't.
A lesbian female
Is there any other type of lesbian?
is born in Brunei, she has sexual relations with another woman, she is sent to jail for 10 years. It was her inalienable right not to be jailed for her biological sexual drives.
Sexual activity is not an inalienable right. But let us assume it is. In your hypothetical the woman still possesses these rights, they are simply being violated. If the right had been alienated, there would be nothing wrong with the government's action. The government's action is wrong precisely because the right can't be alienated.
Or maybe only Americans have inalienable rights?
Nope...which is why the courts have consistently ruled that we have to give illegal aliens constitutional protections despite the fact that they aren't American.
“Sexual activity is not an inalienable right.”
So did God give you the list of inalienable rights? How special!
Constitutional monarchies seem to have a better track record than constitutional republics.
I have a weakness for monarchies, probably at least partly because I spent half of my youth growing up in England. They would definitely be my second choice, and given the right system to allow and promote upward mobility, one I could definitely accept.
I would dispute the "better track record" however. I think we have done a far better job of protecting individual freedom than the United Kingdom for example.
So did God give you the list of inalienable rights?
No...John Locke did.
gahrie said...
Is there really a "liberal" Muslim country?
Well Turkey was pretty liberal for a while...but that is going away now. Dubai is the Arabic version of Las Vegas, so a lot of stuff is overlooked there that would get you imprisoned or stoned in any other Islamic country.
Turkey was a secular republic where the Army had the job of coming out of the barracks and taking over whenever the Islamists were elected to power, and hold power until ready to turn it back over to secular politicians.
European democracies, of course, were horrified by this. And every time the Army took over condemned Turkey over and over again in resolutions and speeches. So, the next time the Islamists took power- the Army didn't take over. And you have what you have today- the establishment of sharia law and the end of secularism. Al Jazeera, of all sources, actually has one of the better summations of Turkish Army coups. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/04/20124472814687973.html
Why it's important to remember we're a Republic, a nation of laws, not a Democracy, ruled by a mob. It's much easier to turn a Democracy into a totalitarian state. Takes only one election.
“A lesbian female...”
As a female infant and child she is not YET a lesbian. She may biologically be predisposed to lesbianism, but she hasn’t engaged in it yet, unless she’s being molested. It didn’t seem quite accurate to write a “lesbian” is born...
@Gahrie:
No they can't.
How do you punish someone for a crime without violating their rights?
“No...John Locke did.”
John Locke had supernatural powers, eh?
@Gospace:
Turkey was a secular republic where the Army had the job of coming out of the barracks and taking over whenever the Islamists were elected to power, and hold power until ready to turn it back over to secular politicians.
I think that a secular liberalism that can only be enforced by the force of a military dictatorship is not much of a viable liberalism. This is another one of the problems with classical liberalism, it's appeals to universalism. As a nationalist, I support the Turks in building their society however they choose, without outside interference. Even if it's a society I would not want to live in.
A monarchy even constitutional means you’re still a subject. I’m a citizen.
https://gulftoday.ae/news/2019/03/27/ad-cp-arrives-in-egypts-alexandria
As a nationalist, I support the Turks in building their society however they choose, without outside interference. Even if it's a society I would not want to live in.
I do, too, Farmer.
and gulen made Erdogan's takeover possible, that was ergonokon #1, hunting the grey wolves, then the scorpion turned on fethin, quelle surprise,
And remember young’uns, all cultures are equal. No culture is better or worse than another. That means you, Clooney. Stop interfering. Here’s where your tolerance comes in.
Who am I kidding? He’ll make a show, but still accept payment.
How do you punish someone for a crime without violating their rights?
Wait for their father to get home.
I guess the Dems are going to have to throw the gays under the bus to keep the Muslims happy!!!
I mentioned quradawi's old band:
https://www.memri.org/reports/international-union-muslim-scholars-urges-imams-preach-armed-jihad-against-israel-save-al
Your example is not alienation it is a violation.
The basis of our complaints of injustice is that our rights are being violated. So if our rights can be alienated instead - taken away from us - we have no basis to complain. This is the point of framing rights as the founders did.
only Americans have inalienable rights?
This usage is inconsistent with arguing rights can be alienated by government. In fact this belief flows from your position and is contradicted by mine. Maybe if you weren't just here to be an asshole you wouldn't be so motivated to find fault and make such stupid mistakes every time you comment.
Inalienable has another meaning that is important, one can't give away such rights as definition.
Of course, what is considered inalienable rights is going to be different from one culture to another. Brunei has its own culture, and as such its own people are ultimately the ones who live with its laws.
I predict this will become a real problem in the future as Islamic enclaves in the West continue to push and eventually succeed in governing themselves by the laws of their own distinct religion.
John Locke had supernatural powers, eh?
No...merely the ability to reason and the willingness to do so.
How do you punish someone for a crime without violating their rights?
A code of laws and due process.
Enumerated rights are like the postulates of a system. They form their DNA. We have plenty of examples of political systems and cultures where individual rights are a matter of govt fiat, from Nazi Germany to Maoist China. Places that had a firm belief in a big government that had the power to solve people’s problems as they defined them. It’s really a question of the kind of society you want to live in.
So Inga is right, and I am sure that Thomas Jefferson also knew that the government has the power to violate any and all rights their citizens might have, what he wanted to do was create a political system where that was very difficult. What Democrats want is a strong big government and individual rights stand in the way of that goal, just as they did for the Nazis and the Soviets, so the very concept of “inalienable rights” seems absurd. As soon as they get the power, it’s “Hold my beer."
Seeing Red:
A monarchy even constitutional means you’re still a subject. I’m a citizen.
A bit of distinction without a difference, but I see your point. I think one of the biggest flaws of the Constitution is that it fuses both the head of state and the head of government into a single executive. Ideally, I believe the head of state should be above and outside of politics.
but I think it's a bit of semantics.
It's an abstraction, sure, but one which helps us understand the political framework we desired and tried to execute.
@Gahrie:
A code of laws and due process.
Precisely. Laws violate natural rights. They must. Your rights to property or liberty can be taken away for all sorts of reasons that democratically elected governments choose. That is the inherent tension between natural rights and government by consent.
I am sure that Thomas Jefferson also knew that the government has the power to violate any and all rights their citizens might have
Well considering he wrote the Declaration of Independence which contained a list of ways the King of England had violated the rights of those living in the American colonies, and used those violations are a justification to overthrow the King's authority, I'd say you're right.
If the choice is between fanatical backwards Muslims and innocent gays, I will support my gay brothers and sisters.
I would only ask that the gay movement in the US tone it down a bit. Y'all mostly won, so stop being obnoxious (directed to the gay political movement folks, not ordinary gays).
@Rick:
It's an abstraction, sure, but one which helps us understand the political framework we desired and tried to execute.
Yes, I agree that that was the intention of the framers. I'm not just not sure how successful it was (or could be).
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Bay Area Guy suggests: Y'all mostly won, so stop being obnoxious (directed to the gay political movement folks, not ordinary gays).
And do we really need Gay Pride parades?
Enumerating rights is a way of bootstrapping a decent society from nihilism. Tribal warlords are the norm throughout human history, Saddam and Idi Amin, Mao or Stalin, even Hitler, these were all rulers that just about anybody in pre-18th century human history would recognize as types.
They are probably our future too. First it will start with “I’m sick of golden eggs, I want goose!” then comes the starvation.
Have you given up the "Life starts at conception" nonsense? You can make the case you are protecting the life of a viable child at some point during the pregnancy. That is using reason.
But wait, don't stop there. Tell us with certainty WHEN EXACTLY life begins? We don't execute someone unless we know "beyond a shadow of doubt" that they are guilty. We err on the side of caution. Ergo, you need to prove that a fetus is not alive. Can you reason?
Laws violate natural rights. They must.
No..laws protect inherent rights.
Your rights to property or liberty can be taken away for all sorts of reasons that democratically elected governments choose.
No, they can be violated, but not taken away. The propensity of democracies to violate inherent rights is why I oppose democracy. I would reduce the power and influence of democracy in our country given the chance. As an example, I would repeal the 19th and 26nd amendments.
That is the inherent tension between natural rights and government by consent.
Only if you maintain that consent requires a democratic system.
Bay Area Guy suggests: Y'all mostly won, so stop being obnoxious (directed to the gay political movement folks, not ordinary gays).
And do we really need Gay Pride parades?
Well, it's a money maker for somebody. WE took some friends from England to San Francisco when they were visiting and the area for the gay pride parade was fenced off with chain link. Admission was something like ten bucks ands that was ten years ago. We decided we were not ten bucks worth interested.
Of course, that preceded poop streets, also,.
@gahrie:
No..laws protect inherent rights.
If the only laws that existed were laws against assault and theft, you might have a point. But laws regulate all sorts of human behavior, from how you to have to build your house, what kind of plants you can grow, and what kind of commercial transactions you can engage in.
No, they can be violated, but not taken away.
I'd say the death penalty pretty clearly takes your rights away. And none of the framers thought that the death penalty violated the Constitution.
Only if you maintain that consent requires a democratic system.
What are some non-democratic means of obtaining the consent of the citizenry?
Enumerating rights is a way of bootstrapping a decent society from nihilism.
The idea of human "rights" is a useful fiction.
Natural law, whether in the form of theism ("endowed by their Creator") or Kantian philosophy, seems to be something every founder (especially a revolutionary founder) finds necessary to claim. It represents for republics the same principle as "No Bishop, no King," men need legitimacy based on something more than raw power, contingent history.
The mischief is in spawning ideologies that posit universal human rights, which demand imposition of one culture's-- or one powerful state's-- definition of what those rights are. France, the USSR, and even the post-WWII USA are modern examples.
Is property such a right, or rather its opposite, everything held in common? Are free speech, abortion, sodomy, such rights, and the state that denies them therefore illegitimate?
Agree with Fernandistein and robother above. Peter Hitchens wrote an interesting blog item on the topic back in 2008, which you can read here.
What are some non-democratic means of obtaining the consent of the citizenry?
Their unwillingness to overthrow the government.
J. Farmer said...
@Gospace:
.....
I think that a secular liberalism that can only be enforced by the force of a military dictatorship is not much of a viable liberalism.
Like it or not, all governments exist solely because of force. Including our very liberal republic. Took a few years of using overwhelming force during that great unpleasantness in the 1860s to establish that the Constitution is supreme, and that entering into it is a one way street, as pointed out in the documents that actually founded the the United States-The articles of Confederation, which declared us a perpetual union.
But in the United States, as demonstrated by that unpleasant event, the central government doesn't have a monopoly on force. In fact, as demonstrated by the Battle of Athens 1946, local governments don't have a monopoly on force.
One of the great political divides right now in the U.S. is the Constitution itself. It appears one of the two major parties considers it an obstacle preventing them from doing good for all of us. Which is why I'll never vote for a Democrat at any level of government. Because if a politician is part of the anti-Constitution party, it doesn't matter what they say, they're still part of the anti-Constitution party. On a day to day basis, I don't want the government doing anything "good" for me. I want the damn busybodies who drift to government service to leave me alone.
Achilles: If you give the state the power to ban abortion, you implicitly give the state the power to mandate abortion.
That's a nice bit of sloganeering. Sounds deep, impresses shallow thinkers. Too bad it's mindless cant:
"If you give the state the power to ban leaded gasoline, you implicitly give it the power to mandate leaded gasoline." Um, yeah, sure, I guess so. And?
"If you give the state the power to ban public nudity, you implicitly give it the power to mandate public nudity."
"If you give the state the power to ban religious instruction in schools, you implicitly give it the power to mandate religious instruction in schools."
"If you give the state the power to ban the sacrifice of infants to Baal, you implicitly give it the power to mandate the sacrifice of infants to Baal."
All true when it comes to state power, so, yeah, I guess you've really shut down your dense interlocutors!
States exercise power. It's what they do. What gets banned or mandated or declared officially "off limits" to state power depends on who's in power, on the prevailing political culture of its citizens. So if you want things your way you need to fight to keep the people who agree with you in charge, and the people who don't out of power. Because if the latter bunch gets power, they're not going to give a rat's ass about *your* first principles. They're gonna ban and mandate as they see fit.
And btw, there is no carved-in-stone distinction between "sin" and "crime". (I guess you thought murder wasn't a sin.)
Don't look now, but while "conservatives" and glibertarians were spending the last half century trading fine slogans about small government, the progs were gathering the power they needed (political and cultural) to shove their preferred policies down our throats. Turns out they were gonna use state power to make you bake that cake, regardless of any principled non-prog agreeing that the state shouldn't ban gay marriage. And any relief from that kind of tyranny will come from getting people you agree with on the high courts, not on progs developing some respect for freedom and limited government because they were so impressed by your setting such a fine example and all.
@Gahrie:
Their unwillingness to overthrow the government.
Because that worked out so well for the French. Precisely why Jeremny Bentham referred to natural rights as "terrorist language."
@GospacE:
Like it or not, all governments exist solely because of force
Certainly. It is the very definition of a state, a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence over a given territory. I'm not sure what any of the rest you wrote has to do with my statement about Turkey. Different nations will choose to organize themselves in different ways. That's the point of having a nation-state.
A couple days this blog was treated to the Supreme Court telling convicted murderer Russell Bucklew that he would have to die by lethal injection after all. But I suppose if he wants we could give him the option of being stoned. Wait until he finds out that it foesn’t Involve marijuana.
Yes, because not wanting gays to be put in a position of power over your children to indoctrinate them directly with the gay agenda (after observing that that IS what they in fact do in classrooms across the nation) is exactly the same as wanting to stone them to death. Exactly.
It is exactly the same ... if you're a drooling imbecile.
Just for the record, I'm wearing my Gay/straight alliance club t-shirt at work today.
"Precisely. Laws violate natural rights."
Except those laws meant to preserve a natural right.
It’s the natural right of the bear to eat you.
Blogger J. Farmer said...
@Gahrie:
No they can't.
"How do you punish someone for a crime without violating their rights?"
You can if they first violate someone elses rights.
convicted murderer... if he wants we could give him the option of being stoned
A forward-looking policy would adopt the means and methods specified by the human-rights and UN-approved abortion industry. A scalpel to his jugular, followed by decapitation, dismemberment, and, if the profits are there, cannibalization of his profitable colorful parts. The carbon-based waste can be sequestered in common cause with the Profits (sic) of CAGW. Kneel for social progress, medical progress, and other political causes.
It’s the natural right of the bear to eat you.
Because that worked out so well for the French.
It worked out well for us. The problem with the French revolution was the insistence that rights came from the government.
If it wasn't for British colonialism these good people wouldn't do stupid stuff like this. Damn Brits!
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