"It is all well and good to perform good deeds, but if religions do not make themselves indispensable to families, their future could be bleak. As we already see in Europe, churches and synagogues could become ever more like pagan temples, vestiges of the past and attractions for the curious, profoundly clueless about the passion and commitment that created them."
From "Why Social Justice Is Killing Synagogues and Churches/Data suggests that the more a religious movement is concerned with progressive causes, the more likely it is to rapidly lose members" (Tablet).
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१०० टिप्पण्या:
I just read this article, and thought it would appeal to you.
There's a Catch-22 here that I've never seen acknowledged. I encounter it because I play for services, and I've played for SJW churches and traditional churches. We live in era of schism.
If a church tries to hold onto tradition, half the congregation walks out. If the church tries SJW theology, half the congregation walks out.
The real culprit here is the ongoing separation of sexuality from reproduction. Nobody has universal answers. Is sex just for fun and companionship? Anything goes? Serial monogamy? Traditional marriage?
All churches are dying financially and none have a solution.
Islam is growing, so instead of converting the churches to bars or restaurants, perhaps they'll become mosques.
No surprise. Progressivism is not about introspection and self-improvement, it’s about yelling at and making demands of other people.
Religion is the poeticization of personal ethics and social justice is its avoidance.
The failure of the Covington diocese to have some faith in the moral education they've provided their students, and instead to fall in with the mob by apologizing and talking about possible expulsion, is a symptom of the problem.
People may keep their faith in God, but how can you support a church that abandons you as soon as there is any trouble?
Religions are like other institutions; when they are converged with SJWs they are ruined.
Sometimes I wake up late at night and turn on Coast to Coast AM. Guests and callers there believe in ancient aliens, alien abductions, Big Foot, time travel, remote viewing, spirtual guides, ghosts, and conversing with the dead.
They all describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious"
The only religion I can see that continues with it's faith and morals without deviation is Islam. Do not listen to anyone who says that the meek shall inherit the earth. The strong will rule through brutality.
With Social Justice warring everywhere, are these entities not already following the consumerism the writer is proposing?
I came to the faith late in life. Like most dissident conservatives I noticed The Narrative had begun to fall apart and when I asked the obvious questions I was called names. I began looking at and questioning the entire prog/liberal worldview and ever more questions popped up, and the shrieking and gobbing and hissing ramped up accordingly.
I even questioned evolution... and my former atheism went out the window with all the other liberal bullshit I was raised with. Our family collapsed later on: I got exiled from the hive for having the wrong opinions which was good for all of us because I had grown to reject all of theirs too. After I left things got worse for them. The queers came crawling out of the woodwork, the divorces started and I don’t think there are any happy campers over there anymore.
My wife got the faith first and eventually dragged me into church too. What a change! The women were graceful, smart and warm. The men were strong and welcoming and the whole experience was a tall cool drink of water after years in the proggie liberal desert. At my church they believe the bible says what it means, and means what it says. The numbers are trickling up; we are getting a lot of people walking in after being dragged through messy divorces, and young people who’ve had to live through the fallout of prog/liberal “family values”. Others come from fake churches run by queers, pedos and wymin.
People no longer understand the value of A healthy faith because they’ve been conditioned not to. We are seeing the results too.
"From "Why Social Justice Is Killing Synagogues and Churches""
They need a more general theory: why social justice is killing anything in its path.
The point is to scorch the earth on the way to absolute power.
But traditionally traditional religion has stood in the way, so it is a prime target. SJWs shall have no other gods.
The congregation is becoming smaller and older.
Past a certain age, people lose muscle mass and get shorter as they get older.
They all describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious"
I doubt it.
Members of mainstream religions have higher rates of belief in one or more of "reincarnation, spiritual energy located in physical things, belief in yoga as spiritual practice, belief in the "evil eye," belief in astrology, having been in touch with the dead, consulting a psychic, or experiencing a ghostly encounter", than people who claim "unaffiliated".
This article explores a 100+ year old problem in Christianity . Since Darwin and Freud, the Educated Approved leaders of the Churches have zero faith in anything except themselves making a career and money off it. Being fools, they actually do run their flocks on the idea that God has no right to judge Sin and therefore neither does a Jesus loving Church. The result is a Church that actively hates and attacks any stubborn believers among them that cause them trouble welcoming the Atheists and the Gay activists they want to replace them with.
Seems like SJW keep invading respected institutions in an attempt to validate their beliefs. If the perception is Churches are respected, with a high measure of moral capital, and if the SJW can take over that institution, they also attach themselves to that moral capital.
Rinse and Repeat,
Insert that Iowahawk tweet here.
“Do not listen to anyone who says that the meek shall inherit the earth.”
Jesus?
Do you think that Jesus said that, Inga?
Data suggests that the more a religious movement is concerned with progressive causes, the more likely it is to rapidly lose members
And this is a surprise to who?
I personally am a deist, but I firmly believe that religion is a necessary component of civilization.
Coast to Coast AM.
I haven't heard that for about 20 years or so, or when Art Bell retired or...and didn't think it was still around.
On their website, the first listed broadcast is
"Upcoming
Mar03
Sunday - The Coming Messiah / Effectiveness of Prayer"
"First Half: Biblical prophecy expert and scholar, Carl Gallups is a bestselling author and talk show host. He joins George Noory to discuss his latest work telling the story of Israel's most venerated Orthodox Rabbi, Yitzhak Kaduri, who has claimed to have met the true, soon-coming Messiah and how this dovetails with other biblical prophecies."
“Do you think that Jesus said that, Inga?”
Yes.
Jesus also said: "Don't be a commie bitch!"
From his recently discovered "Sermon on the Assholes."
The meek that shall inherit the earth were William Penn's Quakers. But to stay alive on the earth in the meantime, they had to hire thousands of Scots-Irish fighters to defend their borders and kill Indian War Parties for them. And then they had to deal with the demands for free land by those Scots-Irish. Ben Franklin kept the sides together long enough to inherit a State that King George wanted back as his inheritance. Thanks to the King of France sending over a Fleet to trap Cornwallis's Army at Yorktown after 8 bloody years of continuous Civil War, we inherited the USA.
“The teachings of the Sermon on the Mount have been a key element of Christian ethics, and for centuries the sermon has acted as a fundamental recipe for the conduct of the followers of Jesus.[19] Various religious and moral thinkers (e.g. Tolstoy and Gandhi) have admired its message, and it has been one of the main sources of Christian pacifism.[1][20]
In the 5th century, Saint Augustine began his book Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount by stating:
If any one will piously and soberly consider the sermon which our Lord Jesus Christ spoke on the mount, as we read it in the Gospel according to Matthew, I think that he will find in it, so far as regards the highest morals, a perfect standard of the Christian life.”
“The only religion I can see that continues with it's faith and morals without deviation is Islam.
And
“All churches are dying financially and none have a solution.”
Well, not really. You just need to look a bit more carefully. But the question has always been, would you know true religion if and when you encountered it? Jesus walked among men and still many didn’t recognize who he was. Perhaps he cut so much across the prevailing thought structures and processes that it was too hard for people to let go of their connection to the safety of popular opinion. Or he demanded too much of them. Or they were really seeking other things like money, fame or position, and He didn’t seem to be offering any of that. Yet some, like Simeon, were “led by the Spirit” to the temple when Jesus was not even 1 week old, and Mary and Joseph brought Him to the temple to make their required offering on His birth.
So how is one “led by the Spirit?” If we understand that, we won’t miss it, when truth appears before us.
Inga is right. Jesus said them words in red letters. But He also claimed that He was the anointed Warrior King of the Jews descended from Warrior King David. That was the same King whom David described in his Psalm 110, a warrior king who will come again to Judge the quick and the dead. You might want to check out his style of meekness. Psalm 110 was the most quoted scripture about Himself by the then meek Jesus.
“The eight Beatitudes in Matthew:[9][7][8]
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you”.
The demise of Christianityis probably true for some areas but the damage is not universal.
Many countries which have been severely damaged by the left in the past, like Hungry and the present leadership of the Soviet Union, recognize that Christianity is the force that holds Western Civilization together. Led my the Protestant Reformation, many Christians have reduced Christianity down to a ticket to Heaven and have missed the roots of Judaism and Christianity which was to make life better on this Earth.
Christianity and Judaism are the ideology around which modern society is formed. If you view God as the heavenly magician or as the conductor to Heaven, Woody Allen is correct when he says that "God is an underachiever" On the other hand, when you look at the Euoopean continent and its transplants which used Christianity to meld the pagan tribes of Europe into a common culture which has become the powerhouse of intellectual achievement and has lifted millions of people out of slavery into modernity then God is everything the Bible claims He is. Those Europeans who have abandoned their faith will pay a fearful price for that apostasy but other parts of the World are taking up the challenge and they will benefit greatly.
I was raised as a Catholic. I no longer have any religious beliefs, but I have the memory of such beliefs. They're mostly good memories.....I like Leonard Cohen. My spirituality, such as it is, aligns with his unhappy chords. I also listen to Allison Krauss. She sings old time hymns. There's an innocence and belief in her voice that is very reassuring. I think I take more comfort in Allison Krauss than in Leonard Cohen, but I'm old and will soon be leaving.......What with evolution and astrophysics, it's impossible to believe in God in the way our recent ancestors did. And yet the universe and the volition of its smallest particles exist. There's something going on besides my wish for eternal life.......The iron in my red blood cells came from a supernova about 3.5 billion years ago. Who knows in further mysterious ways my body will be repackaged.
People wish to be moral actors and to believe in a power higher than themselves. Our wish to believe in God is to some extent a proof of God's existence. We hunger for food, and there is such a thing as food. We get thirsty, and there's such a thing as water. We have these spiritual needs. Why do they exist unless there is such a thing as morality and a higher power both extraneous and immanent in ourselves?
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall shall not prevail against it."
-Jesus Christ (Matt 16;18)
This is not a shocker, the more "modern" mainline Protestant denominations have tried to become, the more they've slipped into irrelevancy. Two sides of the same coin, perhaps.
The more experience I have with "social justice" advocates on campus, the more convinced I've become that "social justice" is little more than an effective tool for silencing dissent and for perpetrating injustices against individuals.
Mary Beth said..."Islam is growing, so instead of converting the churches to bars or restaurants, perhaps they'll become mosques."
That's what happened to the Episcopalian church a couple of blocks down the street from me.
Inga's wrong twice. The Greeks are going to inherit the earth and "Blessed are the Cheesemakers"
Do not listen to anyone who says that the meek shall inherit the earth.
"Humble" might be a better translation than "meek". Jesus was not telling people to quietly put up with whatever (real or metaphorical) garbage others wanted to throw at them, he was telling them to humbly put their faith in God.
A Catholic day care? That's that guy's solution?!
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That sounds like the punchline to a joke. NOBODY is giving their kids to the Catholic church. Oh my GOD. Hello?!
And this was clearly written from the perspective of someone who does not know Jesus. Religion /= Jesus, and any church that tries to win by doing anything other than preaching the Gospel and forming genuine disciples disappears, whether it buys into the social justice heresy or the 'value-add' marketing nonsense.
I say this as a practicing, sacraments-loving, liturgy-sniffing, high-church Episcopalian (although our church, thank God, is finally preparing to leave TEC and join the Anglican Communion).
I was raised Presbyterian and in the Boy Scouts. When I was in my twenties I became a confirmed atheist, not the annoying evangelical kind but one who respected others' beliefs.
But I also love Jesus as a founder of Western Civ. I try to live by the Boy Scout code, which is very Christian. By a particular definition of messiah, I can accept Jesus's special role, much as I believe Abe Lincoln to be the American messiah.
It's too bad so many churches have screwed up. I used to go to Presby church once a year for the blessing of the tartans but that tradition is long gone.
There are many ways in the world but there is no God, just us humans at the apex of the food chain. Let's be good.
William @ 8:38
"What your heart holds most dear, let that be your god." Martin Luther
Does anybody else find Ingas' newfound piety absolutely hilarious.
No. Really. After her aforementioned list of principals this is even more laugh out loud the funny.
A secular progressive calling for a secular revival. He is losing his foot soldier flock and he is scared.
Is divorce a sacrament in The Anglican Church?
Given the founder’s penchant for beheading, it should be easy to convert Anglican’s to Islam. Of course, when you can have as many wives as you want you don’t need to kill them like OJ.
https://quillette.com/2019/02/26/how-i-was-kicked-out-of-the-society-for-classical-studies-annual-meeting/?fbclid=IwAR0a-EtWBnhrmCd90tHRNNrFk3T_HYsfZo-ayqrRd715M_uRiEImPVUdKEM
Worth a read. All American institutions besides the churches are breaking down in decadence, often marked by aggressive absurdity. Classical studies is that bad, as noted here, my daughters first major, which she quit in frustration with, well, that sort of thing.
The Catholic church is nowhere near as bad as American universities, which have totally lost their reason to live. The local churches, mostly, are sound, if often sparsely attended, and the parochial schools are vastly more sincere and dutiful than their public counterparts. And moreover far more genuine in their approach to "social justice" as it is a Catholic concept anyway. The hierarchy is riddled with corruption though, and they are trying to survive waves of criticism from the grassroots.
A Catholic day care? That's that guy's solution?!
Mmm, yeah the writer leaves out that other problem Catholics have been hearing about. My parish has a day care and I'm pretty sure none of the Jesuit fathers are involved with that. Just the usual young gals.
But overall the abuse problem has been really bad, always in the news, our diocese among many to file bankruptcy, so what do we pew-potatoes do? You know that there are those that really, really want to peel us away from our faith. It makes you kind of defensive.
But then Father guilts us about "Jesus and Mary at the border" and I'm about to go all Nietzsche on it...
My bet (if I could make one) is that the Chinese will inherent the earth.
Note: All atheists quote "the sermon on the mount" It's there heaven on earth mantra. It is their "we are the Messiah" message.
You know that there are those that really, really want to peel us away from our faith.
While I understand what you are saying, no one can separate you from Jesus other than yourself. I feel a lot of sympathy for lay Catholics who love and respect their church hierarchy and who have had to contend with the fact that it's riddled with hideous disease. It's nice to be a Protestant, even a high-church one, because I never equated my church with my faith. Less to lose. When I remember, I pray for those of us [all of the body of Christ] whose faith is genuine and loving but whose church [small C] is full of betrayal and mockery of that faith.
Catholics will not be any happier with Protestant denominations. They are watered down claptrap.
Just sleep in on Sundays.
The object is to make your religion trivial and irrelevant in your life.
A fundamental misunderstandin of what "faith" means.
You all need to stop listening to the media and taking their garbage at face value.
Christianity is has gained in popularity in the last several decades. A higher percentage of people identify as Christian now than 10 years ago in our country.
This whole article is a lie and the leftists goal of destroying the social fabric of the country is served by you all believing this.
Note: All atheists quote "the sermon on the mount"
That's obviously false, but I think zero atheists do so. Feel free to prove me wrong by finding one.
They are leaving cause the 'preachers' don't follow the BIBLE. How can you preach about Christ and sin and then ignore the sin? We Christians love the sinner, we believe in forgiving the sinner, but we hate the sin. We cannot abide you if you come and openly practice the sin. You are suppose to turn a new leaf and try to avoid the sin (just as in the Bible Christ told the woman prostitute to "GO AND SIN NO MORE.")
And that is why when Christian religions turn and do PC stuff, we tend to leave.
A higher percentage of people identify as Christian now than 10 years ago in our country.
Also false, though not obviously so; almost an 8% decrease in only 7 years.
"The drop in the Christian share of the population has been driven mainly by declines among mainline Protestants and Catholics."
"Feel free to prove me wrong by finding one." - Ann
All churches are dying financially and none have a solution.
I, too, have played the organ at the services of a number of different denominations and individual parishes. Without question, the progs routinely wreck the joints. It’s almost impossible to sit through the mewling about the migrant workers, the mission in Haiti, the prison reform ministry, the midnight run to feed the homeless, the rants about our foot on the necks of the oppressed. Every week, the pews become emptier.
It is no accident that the thriving churches fall into two camps: the conservative mega-churches and the more conventional churches with spectacular music programs. In no event will any church thrive if you cannot look out upon the congregation and see a significant percentage of the pews filled with successful and accomplished men. Otherwise, it’s blue-haired death as the doddering remaining congregants are waiting for the bequest from a recently departed in order to pay the light bill.
The lefties have completely shit the bed.
- Krumhorn
Well there is a problem as to how nourishing the message is, but that is generally true. There is a place for social justice on a personal level.
Orthodox Jews are heavily involved in politics. So it looks like being involved in *Left-wing* politics is what kills the church/synagogue - not politics. Obviously, left-wing politics alienates anyone who isn't left-wing AND those who go to Church for the actual..y'know.. Religion. Religious leaders who get obsessed by Left-wing politics are showing they don't really care about God and are trying to keep up their interest by going into politics.
Hilariously, you don't have to believe in God to be a Church of England or Episcopalian minister but you'd better believe racism is the worst thing ever...or you're out.
Can you say, "taking your eye off the ball", boys and girls? Yes, I knew you could.
They are leaving cause the 'preachers' don't follow the BIBLE.
And many don't believe in Christ. It amounts to the same thing, as it says in John 1:14,"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us".
Who is the Pope of SJW?
is there any absolution?
It was that way 2,000 years before, custom and practice had replaced the Word.
"Feel free to prove me wrong by finding one." - Ann
Also false.
So I guess the seance is settled: no atheists quote "the sermon on the mount".
“Note: All atheists quote "the sermon on the mount" It's there heaven on earth mantra. It is their "we are the Messiah" message.”
I’m a Christian and I belong to a Presbyterian Church. If atheists are quoting scripture it’s a good thing, they could be quoting Otto, or Rusty or God forbid, Shouting Thomas who brags about going to church and playing the organ.
I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,
Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation - marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these - for whom was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;
A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.
In no event will any church thrive if you cannot look out upon the congregation and see a significant percentage of the pews filled with successful and accomplished men.
I have to assume you mean, those men as they bring their wife and multiple children with them. The building called the church can not be sustained without 3+ generations of families represented.
Those people must be informed to know their faith is not the building.
Yes the Church Is the community, the building is just the gathering place.
It is all well and good to perform good deeds, but if religions do not . . .
And if all that a given religion is, then to hell with it (to paraphrase Flannery O'Connor).
But people should not be misled that all religions are thus. Those that are, are useless. Those that are more -- and some are more, some are much, much more -- it is in those that people find the answers they are hungering for.
Balfegor thought of it, too. One of my favorite Larkin poems.
Sorry for the length of this excerpt, but it is all important (and prophetic) --
"The future of the Church can and will issue from those whose roots are deep and who live from the pure fullness of their faith. It will not issue from those who accommodate themselves merely to the passing moment or from those who merely criticize others and assume that they themselves are infallible measuring rods. . . To put this more positively: The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. . . .
"We have no need of a Church that celebrates the cult of action in political prayers. It is utterly superfluous. Therefore, it will destroy itself. What will remain is the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that believes in the God who has become man and promises us life beyond death. The kind of priest who is no more than a social worker can be replaced by the psychotherapist and other specialists; but the priest who is no specialist, who does not stand on the sidelines, watching the game, giving official advice, but in the name of God places himself at the disposal of man, who is beside them in their sorrows, in their joys, in their hope and in their fear, such a priest will certainly be needed in the future. . . .
"Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. . . .
"But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. . . . I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. It may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but it will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death."
-- Father Joseph Ratzinger (1969)
Yes Inge it is a good thing to quote the sermon on the mount if you don't leave out The Lord Jesus Christ and why He died and rose again. Same thing with the ten commandments.
Atheist like Alinsky use it as a tool against Christians. " They can't live up to it so use against them, show they are hypocrites"
Inga Why did our Lord die on the cross and rise again? He could have just wrote a book and leave.
Inga do you or I live up to all the standards of the "Sermon on the Mount"?
The problem with the churches is not that they're useless. The problem is that they're boring. For the sake of simplifying the discussion, let's stick with the Roman Catholics, since it's what I know best, but the same principles apply to other faiths.
The Church's most common public face is the liturgy, the Mass. Could modern masses be any more boring? The priests often seem like they're sleepwalking through it. The music, often the newer, "St. Louis Jesuit" kind of hymn, is barely singable. The congregations respond to such appalling choices by mumbling along until they get sprung at the end.
If you went to a modern mass, you'd never ever guess that Roman Catholic Church music is one of the musical treasure troves of Western History. You'd never know there was a time that even such an anti-Catholic as Hegel would travel to another city to hear a certain priest give a sermon because the priest's sermons were considered jewels of Latin rhetoric. Hell, you'd never even know that there are hundreds of doctrinally acceptable Protestant hymns that sit so wonderfully in the mouth of an English speaker, hymns with memorable, singable memories.
I have, with willing priests, put together two liturgies making use of the glories from our common cultural history. After both services, people came up to me afterwards to tell me how beautiful & affecting the services were. It can be done. It just takes wanting to & a bit of money.
As for me, mostly I just try to find the local parishes that do the Latin Tridentine liturgy. Not because I have any beliefs that that's the real liturgy, but because in that liturgy, everyone, the priest included, has to pay attention. It's not cookie-cutter for congregation nor celebrant.
Every chance I get, I go to a local
Theres the old line that if you bring politics into religion, its more likely to debase religion than elevate politics......In any event, there's ample evidence that you shouldn't make a religion out of politics. You probably shouldn't even make a religion out of your religion. Spinoza observed that people who were acting to fulfill the will of God generally treated their enemies with more malice and cruelty than those who acted solely from self interest.
Ooops!
That's "hymns with memorable, singable melodies" not memories.
“Inga do you or I live up to all the standards of the "Sermon on the Mount"?”
No. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Something a Christian knows all too well, or should know anyway.
“Romans 3:23-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [a]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [b]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
because in that liturgy, everyone, the priest included, has to pay attention
Except that for the people who actually lived it in pre-1960s, much of the Mass was spent by some people NOT paying attention, but praying the Rosary instead or reading the bulletin or popping out for a cigarette. Other times were spent sitting there as if at a music concert (because who really can sing all that chant and polyphony except professionals).
Glad you're not a Rad-Trad, but don't fall into the same starry-eyed view.
I remember the predictions of several years ago, when some argued that if they made the Extraordinary Form more available, that tons of people would come running because it was so beautiful and it would be the salvation of the Church.
Then Benedict did make it more available. And most of those people who were expected to stampede to it responded instead with, "Meh."
There is a demand for less rigorous (e.g. "living") ethical standards in lieu of religious/moral philosophies that are rightly and wrongly perceived as "strict."
There is also a demand for internally, externally, and mutually consistent principles of humanity and Nature. Perhaps a cessation to conflate logical domains for secular returns. In particular, the recognition that science is a near-frame logical domain, philosophy, and practice, a quality that is observable and reproducible (i.e. accuracy is inversely proportional the product of time and space offsets from an established frame of reference), and, more so, self-evident.
@Mark,
Except that for the people who actually lived it in pre-1960s, much of the Mass was spent by some people NOT paying attention, but praying the Rosary instead or reading the bulletin or popping out for a cigarette. Other times were spent sitting there as if at a music concert (because who really can sing all that chant and polyphony except professionals).
Liturgical Latin is not that difficult for someone who's had any Latin at all, and, yes, if we're ever going to reconnect the faithful with their history, Catholic schools are going to have to teach Latin again. If you've never been to a Tridentine mass, you should go. It's a self-selecting crowd, it's true, but there's a high level of participation, including congregations that sing Gregorian chant with the best of 'em.
As for participation in the modern mass, what makes you say the congregations participate? Because they can understand the words easily? Does it strike you from the singing that they are "participating"?
I don't consider "participation" to be an especially relevant Catholic liturgical virtue. For example, when St. Thomas discusses the use of "elaborate" polyphony in services, he approves it even though the words are not understandable, what's important is that the listener knows the intention before the performance.
The Catholic Mass is, like much in the Catholic faith, an intercessonary affair, with the celebrant doing the heavy sacramental lifting for the congregation. If we want a "participatory" liturgy, then, by gumbers, let's get ourselves a low-church Protestant liturgy & go all out with it. At least, then we'd get the good Protestant hymns. Now, we have boring mish-mash that's disconnected from Catholic liturgical history & doesn't have the balls to be out & out Protestant.
@Mark,
I remember the predictions of several years ago, when some argued that if they made the Extraordinary Form more available, that tons of people would come running because it was so beautiful and it would be the salvation of the Church.
Then Benedict did make it more available. And most of those people who were expected to stampede to it responded instead with, "Meh."
While a modern congregation certainly isn't going to flock to a Tridentine mass, for sure, it's just a fact that the modern Catholic clergy are in the main contemptuous of anything out of Church history. The number of priests in a diocese who can perform a Tridentine service number, at best, a handful. Sure, they say the mass in Latin. Big whoop. There's no priestly time, there's no money, there's no push from the episcopal level. It's suffered to exist and that's it.
So inga why do you piously quote " the sermon on the mount" when you or i can't achieve it? People who piously quote "the sermon on the mount" have not yielded to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paraphrasing Clemenceau on Military Justice and Military Music, "Social Justice is to Justice as Rap Music is to Music."
By the way, Otto, I may be able to clarify: If Inga is a Christian, she's one of those "liberal" Christians who follow "The Gospel According to Hillary." That's where the Good Samaritan, instead of freely spending his own money to help the waylaid traveler he finds on the road, turns bandit himself and forces other people pay for the poor guy's medicine and lodging.
There are currently two paths one can pick. The business executives charged with soliciting a prostitute in Jupiter Florida picked a path. But many older and successful people are realizing there is more to life than living like a dog and are starting the search for God. They are going deep and finding meaning in what Bishop Barron has to say or are reading Brant Pitre. The left is obscuring or just oblivious to this path, for example, Kamala Harris suggesting sex work should be legalized.
In fact Inga, People who piously quote " The Sermon on the mount" whether they know it or not are making a mockery of The Lord's crucifixion and ressurection .
“In fact Inga, People who piously quote " The Sermon on the mount" whether they know it or not are making a mockery of The Lord's crucifixion and ressurection.”
People who flaunt their piousness make a mockery of Christianity.
Whether they know it or not.
I’m not pious, I’m human and a Christian who sins and strives not to.
Thank goodness the Lord doesn't require a spelling test.
As for participation in the modern mass, what makes you say the congregations participate?
I didn't say anything about congregations participating today in the (Ordinary Form) of the Mass.
And most of the priests I know, at least the younger ones who were formed under JP2 and B16, have a great love and affinity for Church history and tradition, seeing great value in the patrimony of the Church and our communion of faith extending back 2000 years.
But whether it is priests or laity, while many/most would agree that some of the music is not all that great, and many appreciate a bit more Latin at least in certain parts of the Mass, almost none of them think that the Extraordinary Form is some magic pill.
OK, some people like it. Others don't particularly care for it. Both are fine and acceptable views to have. If it's your thing, great. And if liturgy in general is your thing, great. Others are more attracted to other things -- good things, things that Mother Church has said are holy too.
Personally -- and I would think that you would think so too -- what we really need is better and a greater emphasis on theology and the transcendent truths. The great crisis of our age is existential. People today are totally detached from reality and question everything, even their own personhood and humanity. We need to give them answers.
We have really gotten away from that the last, oh six years or so. Instead of being a beacon of light in a dark world, we are told to do a bunch of community service projects that emphasis the material life. And it really has come back to bite us in the ass. The dictatorship of relativism has done was dictatorships do -- proceeded on the utter destruction of society and the human person.
And if atheists or unbelievers think that any part of the Bible is worth quoting, I’d say maybe God is working in mysterious ways.
Instead of scorning them, why not say “God bless you, you’re right”!
“Thank goodness the Lord doesn't require a spelling test.”
Indeed, that’s why he’s God and not you.
Now -- understand I am speaking of my experience in the Diocese of Arlington, which is vastly better than in many parts of the country, and also in the Archdiocese of Washington (which is mostly good, but is a different culture and feel).
If I were to still live in Michigan or some other places I visit, I likely would be in the throes of despair.
Kotkin's article is in a Jewish publication, and is meant to deal with the travails of the modern Jewish experience in the US. Most of us here aren't Jewish, and we haven't discussed that aspect of the article.
As someone who's been reading quite a bit of rabbinic & Jewish history over the past five years or so, let me just state here, in brief, that the problems that modern Judaism faces are unique to its own world-wide community. While on the surface, it appears to share similarities with the loss of faith among the Christian communities, the differences are huge.
For one very large thing, modern Christianity has not suffered a Holocaust. Two thirds of Europe's mostly Ashkenazi Jewish community were murdered by the Nazis, only to have the Soviets move in and destroy institutional Judaism wherever they could. Among the Sephardim, the oldest continuous Jewish communities in the world, such as in Iraq & Egypt, were destroyed as the Arab regimes forced the Jews into exile with the founding of Israel.
Never underestimate the amount of physical destruction of life & property that was visited on the Jews in the 20th C, and the effects it had at the communal & individual level. What amazes me is that Judaism survived at all.
@Mark,
Personally -- and I would think that you would think so too -- what we really need is better and a greater emphasis on theology and the transcendent truths.
That's true, but I consider a decent liturgy to be the "advertising campaign" for the "real product", which is the theology. I mean, if I'm to be (somewhat properly) derided for wanting to drop Josquin Des Prez on the unwashed hordes, how much more difficult to drop St. Thomas A. on them? At least, they can sit on their butts & take in Josquin. The Thominator requires quite a bit more effort.
As for your experience of the clergy, well, it doesn't match mine. I don't know your ethnic background, but how the clergy are seen varies widely among Catholic ethnics. The Irish & Polish are quite fond of them. French Catholicism, from which I spring, has had for a long time, quite a strain of anti-clericalism in it. I mostly suffer the clergy, because they've got a job to do, but I've never been inclined to see them as moral exemplars. Saving my soul is my job, and I'll do it in spite of them if necessary, thank you very much.
"Christianity has not suffered a Holocaust"- how about the Armenian genocide?
@Otto,
"Christianity has not suffered a Holocaust"-
Yes, in many places, many Christians have been killed. But, so far, never have a sizable fraction of the world's Christians been murdered. The Holocaust simply destroyed the eastern European branch of Ashkenazi Judaism, which was up to that time, the "home base" of that branch of Judaism.
There are just a lot fewer Jews to lose. There are now about 15 million nominal Jews in the world. There are 2.2 billion nominal Christians.
If one wanted to claim that the Armenian genocide was a Holocaust for Armenian Orthodoxy, I'd entertain that claim. I don't think the Armenian Orthodox Church ever makes it, however. The Armenians just claim that an awful lot of them were murdered by the Turks, and that the world ignores it.
So if the Armenians suffered great loses that's not so bad because there are a lot of Christians remaining. Gee it is not so bad that my Christian grandfather was murdered by the Turks because heck there are still a lot of Christians left.
So it's not the loss of ethnic groups that is important but the loss of a religion?
@Otto,
So if the Armenians suffered great loses that's not so bad because there are a lot of Christians remaining. Gee it is not so bad that my Christian grandfather was murdered by the Turks because heck there are still a lot of Christians left.
So it's not the loss of ethnic groups that is important but the loss of a religion?
I'm talking about the sociological & cultural damage of an historical event, not it's moral weight. In moral weight, every life lost is equal in the sight of God. I consider the greatest moral offense in human history to be the Great Leap Forward, in which perhaps as many as 60 million Chinese peasants were starved to death by Mao's regime. In moral terms, the suffering of a Chinese peasant mother forced to swap one of her children with a neighbor because it was much less awful than cooking & eating her own child is every bit as morally appalling as anything suffered in the Holocaust. Nevertheless, the loss of 60 million Chinese peasants didn't destroy Chinese peasant culture because there were so many hundreds of millions more Chinese peasants.
There's a difference between a moral & a cultural/sociological discussion of an historical event, even if some events are so morally repugnant that it's difficult to separate the two.
BTW, the 60 million claim for deaths in the Great Leap Forward, which is much larger than even the previously used upper limit of 45 million, comes from this book.
I don't know your ethnic background, but how the clergy are seen varies widely among Catholic ethnics
My ethnic background is Southeast Michigan, with ancestral roots in the old country of Northwest Ohio. Any cultural traditions or views from Europe were entirely diluted by the time my parents were born.
What amazes me is that Judaism survived at all.
Of course, it is not really an -ism when we come to the Jews. They are a People, a specific family of people -- descendants of Abraham -- and a People of the Covenant. For them, it is really more about "being" a Jew, rather than "doing" Judaism. So long as there is the Torah and one child of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who accepts the Covenant, there is "Judaism."
Of course also, the Holocaust, like the previous oppressions and diaspora, had an existential impact on the People of Israel (Jacob, not the geo-political nation). An impact in the sense of Why? How could God? What's the point of it all? For some, it certainly led to despair and a loss of faith and practice. For others, the persecution was like a seed from which new life grew.
Still the Roman destruction of the Temple (and hence the end of sacrificial worship) had a far greater impact on the Jewish sense of what their religion is all about.
@Mark,
For them, it is really more about "being" a Jew, rather than "doing" Judaism
Yes, that is the modern, Reform Jewish exegesis of what it's all about.
If you think that is in any way aligns with what the rabbinic authorities held & taught until the advent of the modern Reform movement in 19th C Germany, I've got a bridge to sell you.
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