Said Lindsey Graham, quoted in "Saudi Prince ‘Complicit’ in Khashoggi’s Murder, Senators Say After C.I.A. Briefing" (NYT).
Also: "Somebody should be punished, but the question is: 'How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?'" — Senator Richard C. Shelby.
५ डिसेंबर, २०१८
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As I have said before, the argument for downgrading the US-Saudi relationship existed long before l'affaire Khashoggi. It is merely the latest example of MBS' impetuousness and incompetence.
I imagine Alabama is begging for qatari cash, this is what that's about.
I accept that Khashoggi died somewhat as described, but how that came to happen is another thing. Perhaps I am going all John LeCarre on this thing, but this story is all too improbably neat and convenient for the powers peddling it.
Yes they wanted him back like galindez, (see trujillo) but it got out of hand.
That's why they had the Tyrion sized general heading the team.
How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?
I’m usually good at these riddles, but...’with a saw’ is the trick answer, but the correct one isn’t obvious to me.
Drag Obama before the dock for ordering drone murders first. Let the nation without sin cast the first stone, which is another way of saying that we should mind our own business. This guy was a pal of bin Laden. The Saudis know shit about their own that we will never learn. None of our business.
Somebody should be punished, but the question is: 'How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?
Ending all support and assistance for the war on Yemen and cancelling arms sales would be good first steps.
We are not the World Police and the CIA has no business holding press conferences and disclosing covertly-gathered information. We never arrested the Brits that ordered the Archduke Ferdinand assassination, either.
@tim in vermont:
This guy was a pal of bin Laden. The Saudis know shit about their own that we will never learn. None of our business.
The "pal of bin Laden" talking point is stale and meaningless. Ad for the "none of our business" line, that would be true if Saudi Arabia was not a deeply enmeshed client state of the US.
@Darrell:
We never arrested the Brits that ordered the Archduke Ferdinand assassination, either.
Which Brits were these?
This is so interesting-
The media would have you believe this was an American journalist murdered by a regime friendly to Trump....like something Putin would do.
He was not a journalist, and he didn't even have a work permit (green card). Real American journalists are murdered overseas all the time, and our media doesn't bat an eye.
So what gives?
You have a Saudi muslim brotherhood operative conspiring against the Crown Prince, and was summarily neutralized in Turkey. I can't believe this story had legs in the first place, let alone still.
This iteration of the Yemen war, is not new as I pointed out from effendi obaid, khashoggis colleague family tree.
Now the parallel is more like Fabian ver and aquino.
As I have said before, the argument for downgrading the US-Saudi relationship existed long before l'affaire Khashoggi. It is merely the latest example of MBS' impetuousness and incompetence.
I agree, Farmer. Wasn't it amazing how deftly the Saudis' complicity in 9/11 was swept under the rug? This current position is one of the few instances where I've had to disagree with Trump. But the murder of a 'journalist' should not be the main reason for dissolving ties with SA and we should not be providing military support for their involvement in Yemen.
It's a Turkish info OP fronting Qatar and Iran. The new axis of evil.
A smoking saw?
You would think they would know to properly oil the saw before dismembering a body.
Must've been a new guy.
I am Laslo.
Darrell said...
"We are not the World Police and the CIA has no business holding press conferences and disclosing covertly-gathered information."
No kidding. And the fact that the State Department does not object shows that they are part of the cabal. This is a slow-motion coup.
The fellow al tubaigy we are given to understand is very tidy like gabriel Byrne I. Point of no return
Remember the 28 pages, classified for 13 years
Rehajm at 7:51: Good one! ;-)
I can't figure out why USA-ians are supposed to care about some foreign guy who was murdered in a foreign country by other foreigners, something that happens hundreds or thousands of times every day.
Somebody should be punished
So the United States is now supposed to get involved every time someone is killed by their government? Seems like that would involve lots of foreign wars...….
Which Brits were these?
SIS (MI6) agents were sent to stoke up Bosnian Serb resentment to the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908, with the specific goal of killing the archduke during his visit to Sarajevo. Gavrilo Princip talked about the British men in the bar (in the week prior to the visit) firing the crowd up and buying drinks and even supplying pistols and bomb-making instructions. The CIA would have held a press conference, if they had existed at the time.
They were mostly brought back to the kingdom for their incompetence, like the Dubai hit team you're supposed to leave no traces.
Pinochet through Contreras used cutouts an American townley some of my paisans paz and suarez
Deep State apparently doesn't want a more pro-American, more Western-hinking government in Saudi Arabia. Someone must be making some dosh on arms sales and Middle East tensions.
@Darrell:
SIS (MI6) agents were sent to stoke up Bosnian Serb resentment to the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908, with the specific goal of killing the archduke during his visit to Sarajevo. Gavrilo Princip talked about the British men in the bar (in the week prior to the visit) firing the crowd up and buying drinks and even supplying pistols and bomb-making instructions. The CIA would have held a press conference, if they had existed at the time.
I would like to pursue this topic further. Do you have a source for this information you can recommend to me?
@narciso:
It's a Turkish info OP fronting Qatar and Iran. The new axis of evil.
Yes, very foolish of the Saudis to hand the Turks and Qatari such a propaganda coup on a silver platter. Don't you agree?
@Darrell:
Deep State apparently doesn't want a more pro-American, more Western-hinking government in Saudi Arabia. Someone must be making some dosh on arms sales and Middle East tensions.
Where was the Deep State when Obama was selling the Saudis billions of dollars in arms and providing the initial support for the War on Yemen?
Yes Darrell you've got it cold, Obama did it to balance the fustercluck he did with Iran,
We know he was on the side of deposing Mubarak in favor of morsi.
Where was the Deep State when Obama was selling the Saudis billions of dollars in arms and providing the initial support for the War on Yemen?
That was before the power change that occurred in the Summer and Fall of 2016. Remember the arrests? There's a new Mohammed in town. Elder cousin Prince Mohammed bin Nayef goes bye-bye.
@narciso:
Obama did it to balance the fustercluck he did with Iran,
We know he was on the side of deposing Mubarak in favor of morsi.
I agree that support for the war on Yemen was a sop to Saudi Arabia over the JCPOA, but why would Obama feel compelled to do this? Why did he believe he needed to reassure the Saudis? Also, Obama promptly supported and provided arms to the Egyptian military dictator. And by "clusterfuck," do you mean a very effective non-proliferation agreement that blocked Iran's access to a nuclear weapon?
@Darrell:
That was before the power change that occurred in the Summer and Fall of 2016. Remember the arrests? There's a new Mohammed in town. Elder cousin Prince Mohammed bin Nayef goes bye-bye.
MBS was defense minister at the time and deputy crown prince. Salman of course has been King over the course of both administrations.
So you're argument is that the Deep State supported Saudi Arabia so long as bin Nayef was Crown Prince but not MBS? Why?
The "pal of bin Laden" talking point is stale and meaningless.
Why? Because after 9-11 he claimed that he had tried to talk sense to bin Laden? After 9-11, not before. You don’t know what transpired and neither do I. There is no doubt that he traveled to meet bin Laden, and all we have on the meeting is what was reported to us by him after 9-11...
We can’t get involved as the world cop every time some government does a “drone strike” on one of their citizens on their soil. And we can’t take either the CIA’s or the Turks’ word on anything. Best policy? None of our business. Caring about shit like this is what got us into the Iraq war, we made a democratic decision, which Obama ignored in Syria, that we were no longer going to care about shit like this that happens in other countries, and Trump is respecting that mandate, so clearly expressed by the American people in 2006.
Even the legitimate president of the United States, Donald J Trump can’t trust the CIA since they have become openly partisan political operatives.
The Washington Post hates Donald Trump with a passion, so we need to sever our ties to the Saudis. Got it.
He was pro Hamas as recent as 4 years ago, same with Islamic state
Salman replaced prince bandars brother who mishandled the Syrian rebel portfolio.
Turkey is a member of NATO, and it sheltered Islamic state supports Hamas and Islamists from Syria to north africa.
@tim in vermont:
Caring about shit like this is what got us into the Iraq war, we made a democratic decision, which Obama ignored in Syria, that we were no longer going to care about shit like this that happens in other countries, and Trump is respecting that mandate, so clearly expressed by the American people in 2006.
I certainly agree that we should not "get involved as the world cop." Trump took the decision to maintain US troops in Syria indefinitely and has continued to double down in Afghanistan and in US support for Yemen. How is this "respecting that mandate?"
Someone must be making some dosh on arms sales and Middle East tensions.
Bingo! Another conflict between American ideals and American interests.
A story I do not care about yet it keeps rising to the top? The MSM highlights this over and over and are mostly silent on the China agreeing with PDT on Fentanyl.
Because prince Salman is pro Israel and turksu Qatar and Iran are not.
Koot, the MSM are a fake news industry. By both omission and commission they have lost relevance and should be ignored.
J. Farmer,
I initially heard the story of the Brits being behind the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand from a Brit WWII Vet who was a substitute teacher at my high school in the 1960s. [He came to the US after his father died.] His father, a WWI Vet who was disabled in combat was supposedly in a position to know. Both felt that the million British deaths in WWI (twice their WWII losses) was the greatest betrayal by a government in history. The plan was to force Germany to start a short war that would result in a large number of German casualties that would cause a regime change and get Germany to abandon their African colonies that stood in the way of a transcontinental railway between Egypt and South Africa--among other things. Britain and France would deliver the damage because the Maginot Line would never be breached. I accepted this as common knowledge since then, and saw similar charges in print over the years. Of course, the British Gov't has not and never will confirm the story. I'm sure a Google search will yield something on the internet--something along the lines of "Brits behind the assassination of." You can do that on your own.
I remember his name--Mr. Rollo. I don't know if I ever got his first name.
@Darrell:
I'm sure a Google search will yield something on the internet--something along the lines of "Brits behind the assassination of." You can do that on your own.
I did. And found nothing. That is why I asked you for a source.
@narciso:
Because prince Salman is pro Israel and turksu Qatar and Iran are not.
Saudi Arabia has cooperated strategically with Israel for a number of years. There remains no official diplomatic relations between the countries. Saudi Arabia's relationship with Israel is out of shared anti-Iran orientation. It has little to nothing to do with being "pro-Israel."
Blogger Darrell said...
We are not the World Police
Exactly, it's much worse than that. The US is the World Mercenary Force for the Global Elite Money Changers, eg loan shark muscle.
The US is the World Mercenary Force for the Global Elite...
This part of your assertion, for sure.
It has little to nothing to do with being "pro-Israel."
A distinction without a difference. SA can't formally have diplomatic relations with Israel without provoking the crazies there or in the vicinity. But in practical terms it's the same thing, like our alliance with the USSR vs the Axis Powers.
Saudi Arabia is like Libya... open an abortion field, hold a warlock trial, sodomize the prince, force a refugee crisis, redistribute the natural resources.
All that I want, is to drill down on the undisputed statements of Trump, Pompeo, Mattis, Graham, and especially the CIA as represented by the Director in front of the Senate (to which we were not privy, but which is being represented to us by a bipartisan group Senators).
In this regard, Graham counts a lot. And what he alluded to was noteworthy; that no sensible observer would look at all of the intel and fail to conclude that the Crown Prince orchestrated the assassination.
So why then would Pompeo, Mattis and Bolton stake their own credibility on ridiculous word games about there being no definite proof of orders from the crown prince? Senator Graham alluded to their being “good soldiers.” I think that description is too simplistic. And expect that when history is completed and all the biographies are written, we may well find out that it was not mere job preservation or loyalty to a President at whose pleasure the served, but instead that it was the Secretaries’ deep concern that if they did not adequately parrot Trump’s ridiculous (per the world intel, via Graham and others), that Trump would fire them, leaving the nation and the world yet more exposed to the personal danger of Trump.
I have spent my entire adult life being harangued about the need to “respect cultural differences.” Saudi Arabia is a monarchy of a sort that we here in the West have not seen since the 18th century or earlier. People here in the US tolerate their culture when women are flogged for the crime of having been raped, or are publicly beaten for a part of their ankle showing as they walk along the road (women have only recently been allowed to drive). Killing someone who wants to kill the king is merely another aspect of their culture.
What's miss Lindsey's Problem?
I guess because he's not married, he can spend all his time in front of a TV camera, popping off on every issue of the day.
We have a President. He's the one who gets to make foreign policy decisions.
I don't care what a handful of goofball Senators think.
Yeah, the Crown Prince may have wacked a journo.
So?
Who ever thought Saudi Arabia was a Democracy? Or nice people?
Trump is 100% right on this. Why give up $Billions, because some goofs want to all moralistic. And people like Lindsey can't even explain why he's upset at Saudi Arabia and NOT upset a Cuba or China (who are worse on Human Rights).
the Russian and the Chinese will gladly take their oil, qataris have been handing out cash in south Carolina, just like brookings for the tune of 15 billion reasons, that explains bruce reidel, the fellow behind Obama's afghan strategy,
If you thought of it as a retroactive abortion, would you have an easier time with it?
If the US broke relations with every country that took extra-legal action against one of its own citizens, we'd have very few relations. Canada, most likely. And maybe New Zealand. Probably.
when youre catching flak
https://www.weeklystandard.com/jonathan-schanzer/im-a-wonk-at-a-think-tank-turkish-media-say-im-an-international-man-of-mystery
@JamesK:
A distinction without a difference. SA can't formally have diplomatic relations with Israel without provoking the crazies there or in the vicinity. But in practical terms it's the same thing, like our alliance with the USSR vs the Axis Powers.
That is precisely my point. The Saudi-Israel relationship is a result of Saudi self-interested security concerns. It is not a result of or concession to US support. And so it makes no sense in raising it as justification for US support. If the US halted arms sales and withdrew all support for the Yemen war tomorrow, it would not have significant ramifications in the Saudi-Israel relationship, because both countries would continue to have divergent self-interested security needs. Similar, as you say, to the USSR alliance against the Germans.
J. Farmer,
The Brits in question are easy to spot: they have black hands.
@rcocean:
Trump is 100% right on this. Why give up $Billions, because some goofs want to all moralistic. And people like Lindsey can't even explain why he's upset at Saudi Arabia and NOT upset a Cuba or China (who are worse on Human Rights).
The second does not follow from the first. Even if the Khashoggi murder is meaningless, it does not mean that Trump's Saudi Arabia policy is correct. What his policy amounts to us is the US bending over backwards for a client state in order to obtain behavior from that state that hurts our security interests. Trump is not alone in this. He has merely doubled down on the Obama policy (e.g. arms sales and support for the war on Yemen).
Also, by pretty much any objective measure, Cuba and China are freer and more open societies than Saudi Arabia.
Darrell,
The Maginot Line was built *after* WWI.
@browndog:
He was not a journalist, and he didn't even have a work permit (green card). Real American journalists are murdered overseas all the time, and our media doesn't bat an eye.
journalist per OED: "A person who writes for newspapers, magazines, or news websites or prepares news to be broadcast."
Most of Khashoggi's career was in print and broadcast news. What relationship that news had to state organs is a separate question. The fact is that by any objective understanding of the word, Khashoggi was a journalist.
Also, American journalists are not "murdered overseas all the time." It's a relatively rare occurrence.
I certainly agree that we should not "get involved as the world cop." Trump took the decision to maintain US troops in Syria indefinitely and has continued to double down in Afghanistan and in US support for Yemen. How is this "respecting that mandate?"
Trump is playing the ball where it lies. He’s not starting any new wars, sort of unique among modern presidents. I will settle for that, considering the alternative was a woman who couldn’t figure out if she wanted to be Caesar or Mussolini.
When Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq, he pushed the region down to a deeper layer of Hell. I don’t blame Trump for being cautious.
The Maginot Line was built *after* WWI.
Right. My current (12-05-2018) brain fart. Does not affect the rest. They expected France, Russia, Italy and the rest to quickly wrap things up, with British support.
Khashoggi was an acknowledged spy, with a cover as a journalist. I've seen this omitted, but not disputed.
@tim in vermont:
Trump is playing the ball where it lies. He’s not starting any new wars, sort of unique among modern presidents. I will settle for that, considering the alternative was a woman who couldn’t figure out if she wanted to be Caesar or Mussolini
As for "playing the ball where it lies," that is a complete cop out. Nothing is stopping him from removing troops from Afghanistan or Syria. Based on that notion, no president ever could. As for "not starting new wars," that is arguable. He has changed the justification for US presence in Syria and for US support for Saudi Arabia. Both are "new wars" in terms of expressed US aims and military goals. As for Hillary, I didn't vote for her.
I have a migraine headache and I'm watching the second season of The Marvelous Mrs Maisel as I comment. The Maginot Line part was a throwaway add-on, not part of the existing memory.
General Flynn may not have had his limbs sawed off, but he did have his life snuffed by the State. Where's the outrage?
Where's the outrage?
I'm outraged.
"The second does not follow from the first."
Actually it does. If a US Senator is going to go on TV and bash S.A. over 'Human Rights' we have a expectation that the Senator has a well-thought out policy on applying Human rights around the globe - and how America should respond.
But it seems that miss lindsey just has emotional reactions. He doesn't like the Saudi's and likes the Cubans and Chinese. Or maybe he just has Random reactions to things and says crap off the top of his head.
In any case, its completely un-serious.
Or maybe Miss Lindsey is getting some campaign $$$ from people who don't like the Saudis.
Let me try here:
https://outline.com/B6vqG9
From the folks that brought you libya:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-05/khashoggi-murder-how-graham-plans-to-punish-saudis
Fernandistein said...
"I can't figure out why USA-ians are supposed to care about some foreign guy who was murdered in a foreign country by other foreigners, something that happens hundreds or thousands of times every day."
As with everything else these days, Because Trump.
Nothing is stopping him from removing troops from Afghanistan or Syria.
Do you not remember what happened when we abandoned Iraq?
If our foreign policy now revolves around punishing nations for disappearing their journalists, Saudi Arabia will need to get in line behind Russia, China, and Turkey.
Do you not remember what happened when we abandoned Iraq?
It was politically congruent with good optics at the time. Who could have predicted the progress of the so-called "Arab Spring" in Egypt, Libya, Niger, Somalia, Syria, Ukraine, etc. A little social justice here, there, everywhere, and a liberal dose of cowbell.
From the folks that brought you libya:
A n-front social justice adventure for redistributive change, retributive change, immigration reform, and as a first-order forcing of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming. To be fair, the temperatures have been surprisingly moderate, despite the diverse and progressive domestic and foreign forcings. Let's hope the first and second-world nations continue to indulge our, hopefully, short-term bout of liberalism run amuck.
The same people upset at this are the people who greet the murder of Trotsky with a simple shrug.
@rcocean:
But it seems that miss lindsey just has emotional reactions. He doesn't like the Saudi's and likes the Cubans and Chinese. Or maybe he just has Random reactions to things and says crap off the top of his head.
Again, even if Graham is wrong about Saudi Arabia, it does not follow that Trump is therefore right. Both can be wrong.
Browndog at 8:04.
Exactly.
@tim in vermont:
Do you not remember what happened when we abandoned Iraq?
Iraq was never "abandoned." Troops were withdrawn on a timetable that had been negotiated between the Bush administration and the Iraqi government. The US sought to keep US troops in Iraq longer, but the Iraqis would not agree to immunize US troops against Iraqi prosecution. There had been several high-profile cases of individual US troops committing crimes against Iraqi citizens, and this had become a potent political issue inside of Iraq.
Also, I think the notion that a few thousand residual troops could hold Iraq together is fanciful. A civil war and ethnic cleansing were occurring in Iraq when he had tens of thousands of troops in the country. Also, given that the rise of ISIS began with the Syrian Civil War, a contingent of troops in Iraq would not have had much impact on that. The problem with Iraq is that the Sunni-majority west is essentially cut out of government due to their minority status. Promises to fold members of the Anbar Awakening into the security services were not kept, etc.
Iraq was never "abandoned." Troops were withdrawn on a timetable that had been negotiated between the Bush administration and the Iraqi government. The US sought to keep US troops in Iraq longer, but the Iraqis would not agree to immunize US troops against Iraqi prosecution.
So which is it, your first sentence or the rest of it?
Also, I think the notion that a few thousand residual troops could hold Iraq together is fanciful. A civil war and ethnic cleansing were occurring in Iraq when he had tens of thousands of troops in the country.
We conceded a territory to ISIS which they then began to terrorize. I think that your recollection of the events is “fanciful.”
It appears that al anbari, a former Baathist army officer, was behind the strategy of the Islamic state, it's really just an iteration of revanchist forces going back to the golden square:
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2018/12/05/Egypt-hands-Muslim-Brotherhood-leader-another-life-sentence.html
similarly the base of all sunni Islamism is the brotherhood.
details here, he allied himself with a militant kurd organization, whose leader was living in norway
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/isis-origins-anbari-zarqawi/577030/
the offspring of al awdah, part of prince talal's outreach apparatus,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/04/saudi-arabias-investigation-jamal-khashoggis-murder-is-complete-farce/?utm_term=.7885ad0f6766
well that would explain the hamas outreach, as well as the Taliban,
https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/qatar-accused-of-promoting-anti-semitism-at-its-state-run-book-fair-1.799626
Here's what puzzles me but I'm sure some of you foreign policy wonks can set me straight: Why do we always support the Sunnis instead of the Shiites when it's nearly always the Sunnis responsible for international terrorism?
@tim in vermont:
So which is it, your first sentence or the rest of it?
There is no contradiction between the two. If two countries negotiate over hosting troops, and they feel to reach an agreement, that is not an act of one country "abandoning" the other.
We conceded a territory to ISIS which they then began to terrorize. I think that your recollection of the events is “fanciful.”
The US cannot concede territory it does not have in the first place. And which of the events that I have discussed do you believe is fanciful? I'd be more than happy to provide support for my position.
And then there is this...
From March 2018: Amid little scrutiny, US military ramps up in Afghanistan
From today: Afghanistan becomes world's deadliest country for terrorism, overtaking Iraq
Well our expeditionary force was deployed there, we were the strongest tribe as being west put it,
Sunnis especially from Anbar province have always been treated as if they were the majority and they acted this way.
What do you think would happen if we extricated ourselves from Afghanistan?
@narciso:
What do you think would happen if we extricated ourselves from Afghanistan?
Afghanistan would remain what it has been for a decades. A failed state with little central control amid various tribal factions. I don't recall anyone advocating we deploy thousands of US troops to Libya in order to try to turn that failed state around, so I'm not sure why anyone thinks we have any capacity to do the same in Afghanistan.
Whenever you hear one of these swamp-rats talk about Khashoggi, try substituting Kate Steinle's name for Khashoggi's. Or Seth Rich's.
There is no contradiction between the two.
You should read it again. Your problem seems to be that you take everybody at their word if you approve of their decisions, and never accept any explanation for decisions of which you don’t approve. So, as I have often said, arguing with you is pointless because you are 100% unpersuadable.
@tim in vermont:
So, as I have often said, arguing with you is pointless because you are 100% unpersuadable.
You have yet to make a counterargument. Tell me what you think I got wrong and why it was wrong, and I will give you a response. I gave my explanation for the political obstacles in negotiating a SOFA in Iraq. What did I get wrong?
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