"It is in Christianity that the seeds of Western religious toleration were first sown. Christianity is the only monotheism that seeks no sway over Caesar, that is content with the ultimate truth over the immediate satisfaction of power. It was Christianity that gave us successive social movements, which enabled more people to be included in the liberal project, thus renewing it. It was on these foundations that liberalism was built, and it is by these foundations it has endured. The question we face in contemporary times is whether a political system built upon such a religion can endure when belief in that religion has become a shadow of its future self. Will the house still stand when its ramparts are taken away? I’m beginning to suspect it can’t. And won’t."
Writes Andrew Sullivan in "America’s New Religions" (NY Magazine).
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८६ टिप्पण्या:
When Christianity goes, the Left will follow shortly.
That's why there are so many lampposts in big cities.
whether a political system built upon such a religion can endure
He's doing the Gettysburg Address thing.
Andy sees it. I see it, too. Do you see it?
This guy here sees it even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABWeA203Q-c
I think you've got to start a little further back, with Jehovah
The whole point of the old testament is individual rights
The REAL question we face in contemporary times is
will Christianity continue growing in Asia? Asia is the future, for good or bad
Europe is dustbin, and america is going soon. What will happen with Korea and China?
The Catholic Church wasn't much interested in religious freedom until relatively recently.
All Judeo-Christian faith is a response to God's words spoken and recorded, and has to have Free Speech to continue in existence. Secret speech can keep it going, but public speech starts it going. And the speech written down and newly printed mass distributed books caused the Reformation, and now is recorded on digital media and spreading 100 times faster.
Sullivan is re-reporting the same wishful thinking that the God is Dead philosopher/theologians started boasting they discovered over 150 years ago.
The only society I know of that has adopted Christianity voluntarily, is Iceland.
As I recall the history, Constantine became a Christian to enhance his political power. Once the Empire became officially Christian, political power was used by some Christians to advance their doctrines over those of non-Christians and over Christians who adhered to different doctrines. I think much the same thing goes on today.
Of course that wouldn't happen if everyone adhered to MY version of Christianity, which is super-tolerant, but a lot of heretics don't do that.
I read a very interesting piece a few years ago that argued the Christian concept of marriage (one man-one woman) did more to advance Western culture than anything else.
It was quite compelling.
I’m not sure I understand the mindset that says that God isn’t dead, but that his words WERE spoken and written down, and he can’t or won’t speak any more. If he can’t or won’t speak any more, He might as well be dead to us. That’s one reason why I believe He is speaking today, if we have the faith to hear it. We’re not going into the winding up scenes without our own Moses and Joshua like leaders. Else how, really, do we expect Jeremiah 16:14-15 to be fulfilled?
The ancient Romans weren't polygamists, but they did have easy divorce and arranged marriages.
On occasion, Sullivan can be very good.
Trad guy,
" and now is recorded on digital media and spreading 100 times faster."
The column was referring to the decline of Christianity in the "west", not world-wide.
It's a brilliant piece by Sullivan. Absolutely nails it.
"The only society I know of that has adopted Christianity voluntarily, is Iceland."
Well there's also Ireland, Italy for the most part, Northern Africa, Asia Minor, the various Germanic tribes (albeit they were Arians), etc. Christianity spread in its first few hundred years as a vaguely illegal, variably persecuted, religion. So any spread during that time was quite the opposite of imposed. A lot more, if we factor how a society chose to govern itself and adopt Christianity rather than Christianity being imposed by an outside military force (as happened in the Americas, to be sure).
The Roman Empire itself could easily be said to have adopted Christianity voluntarily, as it became legal and then preferred within its regular pattern. Constantine gained control, but it was the edict of Milan that made for religious freedom (not for mandating Christianity).
We also see Chinese Christianity being predominantly voluntary, and South Korea too, which are really the main players in contemporary Christianity these days (China for numbers and passion, and South Korea is the #1 per capita missionary sending country).
Constantine's conversion is a highly debated topic. There's no consensus on why he did what he did. Of course, if someone starts by ruling out any legitimacy to faith, they have to come up with other reasons, but that's not necessarily the best way to think about history, since a lot of decisions are made according to very curious, and rarely singular, reasons.
Well there's also Ireland,
I understand that pagans regard your namesake, Saint Patrick, as a genocidaire.
Sullivan's piece is mostly helpful, but he elides the truth when attempting to explain the attraction of Trump to Evangelicals. The truth is that Evangelicals, among others, have been under increasing attack from the left for quite some time. As one Evangelical wag has put it, "we weren't looking for a husband, we were looking for a bodyguard". It is this element, the survival instinct finally animating Evangelicals and people on the right to fight back against the attacks from the left, that does more to explain the attraction of Trump than anything Sullivan has to say. Extending Sullivan's other insights to this situation might lead one to note that unlike Christianity, which preaches tolerance for other religions, the left has no tolerance for anyone who disagrees. Having lost most or all of the substantive arguments, the left has no choice but to resort to silencing dissenters.
Summary: "My religion is the bestest religion of all!"
During the Thirty Years War some substantial towns in Germany lost 70 to 80% of their inhabitants. By lost, I don't mean that they wandered off into the forest. They were put to the sword, mostly for religious reasons. When Peter the Great introduced reforms to the Orthodox Church, the Old Believers clung fast to the old ways. The manner in which you made the sign of the cross was an intolerable provocation to some people. Two fingers emphasized the duality of Christ's nature but some loathsome scumbags made the sign with three fingers to emphasize the primacy of the Holy Trinity. People in Russia would kill other people because of the way they crossed themselves. Religious tolerance is relatively new to Christianity. It wasn't so long ago that we were burning each other at the stake over doctrinal differences. Some people rejoiced to be burnt at the stake......Our tolerance is perhaps a function of the mildness if our beliefs. Doctrinal passion seems to have drifted away from religion and towards economics and politics.
I appreciate Sullivan’s overall thesis, I really do. But the writing is too sloppy to bear.
Will the house still stand when its ramparts are taken away?
A rampart is simply a ditch dug around the perimeter of a defensible position. Apparently Sullivan imagines it is some kind of load-bearing buttress that holds the walls up. A fancy rampart could have a wall of its own, but it has nothing to do with supporting any other structure. (I supposed he might have meant that the rampart helps defend the house from attack, and so prevents it from falling to enemies. But having read the whole article, I realize that he just does not know what a rampart is.)
belief in that religion has become a shadow of its future self
A shadow of its what now? Its future self? So it compares poorly with what it will become someday?
Will the house still stand when its ramparts are taken away?
Interesting that he chose ramparts rather than foundation It implies that the house will fall to an external attack, rather than its own structural collapse.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
It implies that...
Or it implies, as Sean suggests, that Sullivan doesn't know what a rampart is.
The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.
Mr Sullivan has written a no-doubt sincere account of his belief that the present state of affairs necessarily results from the previous state of affairs. This means that America is a Christian nation, and the decline of Christianity must bring America low. Presumably, he would find some other means of explaining the decline of Japan, should he turn his powerful intellect thereunto.
"I understand that pagans regard your namesake, Saint Patrick, as a genocidaire."
Slave owners don't like uppity former slaves.
Setting to one side all the froth and bother, I will note that Sullivan's interest in the American future is not motivated by the sobering recognition that some day his children will have to find a way to live in it.
Gee. Imagine that. What an epiphany.
Has Andrew finally ditched his gross "Christianitist" insult?
A prayer for Trump to win against HIllary is a prayer for good to win over evil.
Andrew Sullivan is the gay man who was amazed "Obama is a Leo".
I see his use of more words, to advance the silly NewAge, as no reason for taking him seriously - he's ignoring the "Leo" had almost all of his agenda wiped out before Trump even got the Oval Office chair warm.
I wish Sullivan would get mental help instead of more encouragement to write.
"It is in Christianity that the seeds of Western religious toleration were first sown." We see this best illustrated by the burning of heretics in France, Spain, and England.
OK.. heretics and schismatics, to be more correct.
It is said Constantine chose to convert after he saw a Comet in the sky prior to his battle against maxentius.
Andrew is a false prophet.
The Godfather at 7:07: Yeah, that too. Greens and Blues, iconoclasm, Aryus, etc. etc.
All you characters in this thread focused on the religious wars in Europe are being a bit myopic. The Christian conscience is a fundamentally individual impulse that can lead to an individual moral wakening--a belief that you are accountable for your actions.
Whether you are justified by faith or works--take your pick.
Andrew makes some good observations, but he still doens't get the "Christian right".
He sees them as deplorable.
Deplorable.
Irredeemable.
Materialistic.
All bad things.
Again - the left really do not grasp what Trump offered over Hillary. Many people support Trump without worshipping him. Can you say the same about Obama? Huh Andrew?
Andrew also writes from a perspective that is far from humble. It's the "I know it all, and I'm a good Christian, and you fall short" attitude that reeks of hypocrisy from his pulpit.
Interesting. I wonder how long will it be before Sullivan reverses himself on "marriage equality"?
Andrew
It is Christianity that came to champion the individual conscience against the collective, which paved the way for individual rights. It is in Christianity that the seeds of Western religious toleration were first sown.
Right.
He claims to know the mind of a Trump supporter, (deplorable and blind) but he ignores entire swathes of leftists who HATE Christians.
Obama was the biggest Cult going, and Andrew was a part of that Cult. Now somehow, the Cult of Trump is the real problem. oh - what to do with the Deplorables!
Sullivan freaked out over the most humble decent representative, 10 years ago, this is how you ended up with trump
Sullivan started out brilliantly, but then his fiction absolutes took over.
Twice in the last week I got into political discussions with different fraternity brothers. One is Jewish, observant enough to go to services every week, but not to keep Kosher. He has long railed against the Evangelicals having taken over the Republican Party. But then, he is a lifelong liberal Democrat, so has absolutely no basis for comparison. When I bring up the antisemitism of the left, and esp of Muslims and Blacks, he sticks his head in the ground. It's not in the four (left wing) papers he reads every day (NYT, WaPo, LAT, and Chicago) so doesn't exist. I bring up conservative support of Israel, and he responds that they do it for the Rapture. The imminent second coming of Christ. (He doesn't want to hear that that might be the same Messiah that his people are waiting for so diligently. Indeed, the only people I hear about the Rapture from are leftists like him. I go to Republican precinct meetings, and never hear about it. The other was a typical western conservative. He is now an avid atheist, and is refuses to vote Republican because, again, of the Evangelicals.
My point there is that both of them have been greatly swayed by the media. If you read the 4 papers that one friend does every day, you could maybe be forgiven for believing that Republicans and Evangelicals are one and the same. The problem, of course, is that they aren't. And if you took his four newspapers seriously, you would believe that God is dead, that the smart people in this country know that, and vote Democrat. But that is more political than theological - they, along with most of the left, espouse a version of socialism that leaves them in charge of telling everyone else what to do, while making them rich, of course, and religion in general, and Christianity in particular, stands against that. So, elite opinion, because of its socialist affinity has become militantly, if not rabidly, secular, if not atheist. Part of their problem though is that by making the country more secular, they have made the religious divisions that Christians have been divided over, esp over the last 4+ centuries, much less acute. Protestants and Catholics in this country are no longer killing each other. Instead, they are marrying each other. And that makes the sort of factionalism that the Democrats used for most of two centuries to maintain power that much harder to pull off anymore. So, I think more and more, we are seeing the more religious of all faiths moving towards the Republicans, the less religious moving towards the Democrats, and elite opinion, being socialist in its orientation, pushing as hard as it can in that direction by vilifying the more religious, and thus more Republican, in this country.
"It is Christianity that came to champion the individual conscience against the collective, which paved the way for individual rights. It is in Christianity that the seeds of Western religious toleration were first sown."
And it is that individual conscience against the collective that the socialists in our midst, including that elite opinion I mentioned above, so fears, because socialism, by its very nature puts the collective over the individual (with the elites, of course, determining the needs of the collective, which inevitably includes enriching and enpowering those leaders).
> Sullivan freaked out over the most humble decent representative, 10 years ago
Sullivan and many others. What, exactly, was wrong with Palin anyway?
What, exactly, was wrong with Palin anyway?
she gave John McCain a fighting chance of winning; therefore, she Had To Be DESTROYED
It's funny how leftists when they stop to think about it come to the same conclusions as alt-right writers like Voxday.
good to read you again Crack MC!
Paddy O said...
We also see Chinese Christianity being predominantly voluntary, and South Korea too, which are really the main players in contemporary Christianity these days (China for numbers and passion, and South Korea is the #1 per capita missionary sending country).
Asia is the future, Europe is a dustbin, and america is going that way: but, i repeat myself
Judaism did one better than seeking "no sway over Caesar;" it actively advised against any monarchy, and with that, empire.
Whether it provided the foundations on which "liberalism was built" is less clear, but it was a much earlier champion of individual rights and the rights of the innocent - including perhaps presuming innocence over guilt - than Christianity if not any other ethical system. (Genesis 18: 22 - 33).
Well persecution does further the faith.
He claims to know the mind of a Trump supporter, (deplorable and blind) but he ignores entire swathes of leftists who HATE Christians.
Clarification: Leftists hate MORONS, not CHRISTIANS. Any moron who self-righteously imposes a fact-free ethical judgment on others will do, whether they get that from their Christianity or wherever; the source is immaterial. The stupidity combined with judgment is what counts.
Apparently this is difficult for right-wingers to understand.
Europe illustrates what Yeats said about 'the center cannot hold'
When I bring up the antisemitism of the left, and esp of Muslims and Blacks, he sticks his head in the ground.
Those damn pesky Jews - insisting on how the acts of violence committed and numbers killed by actual American non-black, non-Muslims is what counts as opposed to the acts not committed and persons not killed by the American blacks and Muslims. If only they could be more faith and feeling-based than fact and reality-based. Why can't they be more paranoid about what American blacks and Muslims are not doing to them than about what the American Nazis actually do to them and what their European counterparts have done to them? If only they could learn to just hate more based on right-wing politics and Evangelical priorities.
The problem largely is that liberalism has instituted the social gospel for the real one.
Again - the left really do not grasp what Trump offered over Hillary.
Much bigger and more outlandish lies, a history of shady and largely hidden business/corporate criminality as opposed to heavily investigated and reported political corruption and the brazenness to say things that even Hillary knew were just too ridiculous to say. Plus, he was much better at insulting his opponents than anyone else, which has become the de facto qualification for Republican leadership.
@ pee pee. nope you have trump beat when it comes to insulting.
Looks like Sullivan has been watching Jordan Peterson.
Maybe, but I have too much self-respect and attraction to reality to be a Republican.
Browndog said...
“I read a very interesting piece a few years ago that argued the Christian concept of marriage (one man-one woman) did more to advance Western culture than anything else.”
Hence, the assault on heterosexual marriage by the left. Similarly, we see the left spearheading the Assault on God’s Commandments. Most particularly, e.g.: The progressive credo and the 1st; Barack Obama and the 2nd; 60 million abortions and the 6th; “False witness” everywhere and the 9th; The foundation of the modern Democrat Party and the 10th; etc.
Christian concepts and Western culture must go you know.
PPPT: “Clarification: Leftists hate MORONS, not CHRISTIANS. Any moron who self-righteously imposes a fact-free ethical judgment on others will do, whether they get that from their Christianity or wherever; the source is immaterial.”
Since every sentient being reading it had the same reaction to PPPT’s initial sentence, I won’t bother responding. As to the “imposes a fact-free ethical judgment” part: Does that purport to refer to the allegations of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc., leveled against half the population of this country. If it does, PPPT has his morons mixed up. If not, he is the delusional asshole most of us take him to be.
PeePee - Corporate criminality lands people in jail. Do name what Trump did, specifically, that should land him in Jail.
Be specific.
Pee-Pee I know leftists who hate Christians. Esp the evil right wing ones.
Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
“PeePee - Corporate criminality lands people in jail. Do name what Trump did, specifically, that should land him in Jail.
Be specific.”
Well it’s a fact-free ethical judgment as per his 10:58 post. PPPT hasn’t noticed.
There's a link on Instapundit to an article about some big-wig Democratic "liberal" (and by "liberal" I mean of course "tax-happy, coercion-addicted, power-tripping government humper and State fellator") complaining about how too many voters are Christian and too influenced by what they hear from the pulpit on Sunday. He could be right. If enough people started taking that "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors Goods" thing seriously, modern redistributionist, envy-based "liberalism" would be in serious trouble.
We used to get our morals in church and our news from the media.
Now we get our morals from the media and find out what's happening in our communities at church.
Christianity has always valued the individual, but "Individual rights"?
Talk to the Puritans, Cromwell, or Queen Isabella about that!
rcocean said...
‘Christianity has always valued the individual, but "Individual rights"? Talk to the Puritans, Cromwell, or Queen Isabella about that!’
Ah yes, the definitive Christians defining Christianity for the millennia.
"Talk to the Puritans, Cromwell". Redundant.
PeePee - Corporate criminality lands people in jail. Do name what Trump did, specifically, that should land him in Jail.
Too numerous to recite, given the financial conflicts he refuses to disclose. But I'm sure he's confident of his innocence, given how many justices and attorneys he has to appoint and retain who maintain that the chief executive is immune to any prosecution and must instead be impeached in a political chamber before any prosecution or proper criminal investigation can be allowed to target him.
But keep going on, defending your unindicted co-conspirator. He sounds squeaky clean.
Since every sentient being reading it had the same reaction to PPPT’s initial sentence, I won’t bother responding.
Translation: "I, "hombre", have no counter-argument or defense. My indignation and contempt will have to do, instead. Isn't that persuasive, everybody?! The right-wing hive mind I commune with assumes universal reactions to whatever I strongly react to."
As to the “imposes a fact-free ethical judgment” part: Does that purport to refer to the allegations of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc., leveled against half the population of this country.
Which 150 million Americans+ were alleged to be such? And who made that allegation?
Or is complaining of nebulous allegations without naming any actual accuser just the sort of bullshit paranoid right-wing nonsense that gives an old ass-hat the kind of meaning that a loser like you longs for?
If it does, PPPT has his morons mixed up. If not, he is the delusional asshole most of us take him to be.
Read the above responses and get back to me when you can actually bother saying (and alleging) anything specific, you senile twat.
"It was on these foundations that liberalism was built, and it is by these foundations it has endured."
Yes and no. Yes: no Christianity, no liberalism. No: liberalism also meant liberation from (the cultural authority of) Christianity.
Christian evangelicals actually are often very knowledgeable about Judaism, they study the Torah and study Hebrew intensely. I've seen quite a few Youtube videos of their lectures and have been impressed by their sincerity and dedication to learning. Why do they do all that? Because they fully know that Judaism is the basis of Christianity. These Christians aren't just "morons" waiting for the rapture.
So I had questions and then suspicions about Sullivan, and his complete lack of acknowledgement of Judaism as the spiritual and ethical source of Christianity. At the very least Sullivan must know that Jesus did not teach for the purpose of starting his own religion. I did a quick search on Sullivan and Israel and confirmed my suspicions.
There is so much wrong with how Sullivan thinks and what he believes, as well as his cult like hatred towards Trump. His mental process is so twisted where do you begin and more importantly, why bother? There is a lot I could say but I don't want to take the time to go point by point, so I'm just adding this one little criticism of Sullivan's analysis.
PP: "Read the above responses and get back to me when you can actually bother saying (and alleging) anything specific...."
Get serious, you ridiculous putz. "Nebulous allegations?" Is there anyone on the planet inhabited by your tiny little mind who is unaware that the minions of the left, particularly in the mass media, bray the "racism, xenophobia, homophobia" allegations ongoingly at Trump, his voters, Republicans, Southerners and pretty much anyone to the right of Stalin. Oh, and since I did have an "etc." in there, let's add " deplorables" to the mix. Perhaps you can think of a Democrat politician or an MSM entity that hasn't tossed out one or more of those epithets directly or by implication at people on the right.
As for countering your arguments, you are not a maker of arguments. You are a slinger of shit.
Individual dignity. Intrinsic value. Inordinate worth. And separation of logical domains. A legacy of Judeo-Christian philosophy... that is strained with [competing] monolithic structures.
I'm not sure Iceland adopted Christianity voluntarily, at least for the Viking males. The The sagas tell the story that the Viking women flat out refused to travel with these guys up to Iceland to start a colony. So, in the fine Viking tradition of direct action, the Vikings raided small villages on the coast of Ireland and grabbed as many young Irish women as they could and set off for Iceland. As the story goes,these women refused to talk or even look at their captors. Finally, after days of silence, the women demanded to meet with the Viking leader(Leif Erickson?) and gave him a long list of their demands with this warning: "Agree to every single one or we will jump overboard." From the look in eyes of these crazy Irish women, Leif knew without a doubt that is exactly what they would do. And he agreed. Those demands eventually became Icelandic law as it relates to property ownership and the names children will receive. It wouldn't surprise me if one of those demands was for the men to adopt some form of Christianity.
Get serious, you ridiculous putz. "Nebulous allegations?" Is there anyone on the planet inhabited by your tiny little mind who is unaware that the minions of the left, particularly in the mass media, bray the "racism, xenophobia, homophobia" allegations ongoingly at Trump, his voters, Republicans, Southerners and pretty much anyone to the right of Stalin. Oh, and since I did have an "etc." in there, let's add " deplorables" to the mix. Perhaps you can think of a Democrat politician or an MSM entity that hasn't tossed out one or more of those epithets directly or by implication at people on the right.
An entire paragraph designed to mask the fact that homosexualembre can't name anyone who maligned "half the population of this country." (His words). Unless, of course, homosexualembre believes that racists, xenophobes, homophobes make up "half the population of this country."
And I wouldn't be surprised if he does, as ignorant a belief as that would be.
As for countering your arguments, you are not a maker of arguments. You are a slinger of shit.
And since you are the social and moral equivalent of a toilet, it seems my slings are well aimed.
Now go fuck yourself, you impotent old goat. And consider changing your pacemaker setting to "not worth reviving." (Already in a persistent vegetative state).
Oh, I see! homosexualembre actually believes that right-wing policies are supported by "half the population of this country."
That's funny!
If that were the case, then I'm sure homosexualembre would join the left-wingers calling for an end to the electoral college and its replacement with the popular vote, as well as an end to any Republican gerrymander in congressional districting.
Oh wait. That would mean taking homosexualembre seriously as someone who actually considers his thoughts and is capable of taking them to their logical conclusions.
Hahahahah!
Too funny.
Homosexualembre is a joke.
Wow - Pee Pee hijacks the thread. Becoming unreadable for the hate here.
It’s always fun to cut to the chase with montanusritmopeepee. Brings out his best, don’t you think? ROTFL!
I often pray for Christian Capitalist civilization in our nightly family prayers.
The global elites hate both real market capitalism, and believers in Christianity.
Venezuela shows how even rich, OECD country can become poor as it stops supporting private property and capitalism, replacing it with gov't.
The anti-American "hate speech" laws or rules, are designed to be against both speech and religion in our First Amendment. In particular, to make many Christian beliefs illegal thru labelling them hate speech.
Trump is a lousy leader for Christians, but being anti-PC he was at least more neutral for Christians than the hate-filled Cintonistas would have been. Many, but probably still not most, Christians understand that there is an elite led secret war against many Christian beliefs.
Post WW II Christian Capitalist civilization needs both capitalism and Christianity to be respected and accepted in order to survive as good places for normal working folk to live. The USA is going the wrong way in its current culture changes.
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