२६ ऑक्टोबर, २०१८

"Since my ex-husband had divorced me the previous year, I had been reconsidering what I thought I knew about relationships."

"And my previous belief in a relationship of equals seemed painfully naïve.... After my fantasy of a partnership of equals had failed to materialize, I seemed to want to replace it with a fantasy of paternalistic protection.... I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee. But with my new guy, I found myself quietly acquiescing as he told me his voting history shouldn’t matter.... He paid when we ate out; I never even offered, in part because I knew doing so would displease him, but also because I relished feeling cared for. He was fiscally responsible, generous and trustworthy.... At the same time, I found myself becoming guarded around my new guy, evading his questions and hiding things I thought he wouldn’t like. When he asked if I ever went to church, I said no — but failed to mention I was Jewish. I never lied about my career, though I didn’t tell him the whole truth either. He knew I was an actuary but not that I was a partner at the firm.... He was smart enough, first of all, to see through my deceptions: the restraint during chess and the lack of candor about my career.... When I next saw him, he was sullen and withdrawn. I mentioned my cabinetry problems, as if to say, 'See, I don’t earn more than you. I can’t even afford a normal kitchen.' It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

From "How I Fell for an ‘I’m the Man’ Man/Stung by divorce, a high-earning professional tries to recast herself in the dating world as a woman in need of male protection" a NYT "Modern Love" column by Susan Forray, an actuary who lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. In the end, the man breaks it off with her and she uses her own money to get her cabinets done.

No comments section at the NYT on this one.

९२ टिप्पण्या:

Tommy Duncan म्हणाले...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Not exactly open minded.

Henry म्हणाले...

Bizarre. "Controlling didn't work for me, so I decided to try Dishonest."

Ken B म्हणाले...

I lied to him, he broke it off. Fucking patriarchy.

Charlie म्हणाले...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

She sounds like a barrel of laughs.

PatHMV म्हणाले...

"This experience should have led me to dump any guy who claimed it was a man’s job to manage a couple’s money,"

Perhaps she should try not to stereotype and make broad generalizations about a group of people based on her experience with one particular man.

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Nothing like a deposition before that first meeting. Love is in the air! Fun.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

I wonder whether if you're an actuary, the person you go out with ever says, "You're such an actuary."

I know how it works with lawyer.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...

The first date gave that guy all he needed to know.

Krumhorn म्हणाले...

It’s impossible to imagine Freeman Hunt or Mockturtle (or many others here) ever writing self-absorbed drivel like that.

- Krumhorn

Expat(ish) म्हणाले...

Half the women I dated before I met my wife were smarter than me. On average, you'd expect that. (If you could do math.)(Like the partner in an actuarial firm.)

Almost none of the women I ever dated made within 50% of what I made. Also, on average, you'd expect that if you were a software engineer. That was not true when I dated the Lawyer or the Doctor, but I didn't care. I still didn't let them pay for dinner on the average date, but they would often take me out (concert) where they procured the tix and transportation. Preserving my ossified view of a man's responsibility and still making the statement that they were actually in charge of sh*t too.

That's how adults can date.

Is it really that hard?

-XC

Henry म्हणाले...

That article is crazy town.

stlcdr म्हणाले...

So, lawyers tell lawyer jokes? Us non-lawyers need to step up our game!

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

Nothing a good fuck wouldn't cure.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

I just noticed the line: "A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband."

That leads up to a discussion that seems to lead to the breakup. He's surprised to hear that she initiated sex with her husband, and I get the impression he realizes how dishonest she's been. I have no idea what that discussion was like, but I wonder what would have happened if she'd just completely come clean and admitted that she was making herself small in some experiment of enjoying his big-strong-manliness but she'd really like to cut it out and get real. Maybe she did say something like that and he withdrew because she'd been too dishonest and she didn't seem like a good risk.

Fernandinande म्हणाले...

I'll hump your leg!

Rick.T. म्हणाले...

As a CPA, I find this old actuary joke funny because it's true:

An actuary is someone who wanted to be an accountant, but didn’t
have the personality for it.

Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...

Her article is a lesson on how NOT to have a relationship with anyone, much less a man you might like to eventually be with. Dating is about getting to KNOW the other person. So instead of opening up and finding out if you are compatible or have fundamental issues she proceeds to-------------->

Lie at any chance she gets. Only tell part of the truth. Make up stories about yourself. Hide who you really are. Be deceptive. Duplicitous.

Everyone like that type of person....right?

She is wasting his time and he knows it.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee."

Crazy, of course, but also a useful signal: stay away! The new guy probably discovered the prog crazy bit belatedly.

"It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

OK, women, tell us: do you want to be protected, or not? is it OK to treat you as if you want to be protected, or not? Should we treat you as the person you want to be or as the person your prog ideology tells you you ought to want to be?

Rockeye म्हणाले...

Anne - almost everyone knows about lawyers. Almost nobody really knows what the hell actuarys do. Good jokes require universality.

Henry म्हणाले...

This article is not about love, it's about revenge.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

I hope the cabinets were fixed lovingly.

PatHMV म्हणाले...

"A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

“You initiated?” he said, mildly incredulous."

She takes this "You initiated?" question as a suggestion that women shouldn't initiate sex. But it seems more likely to me, given the rest of the article, that she had never initiated sex with this swarthy fellow, and so he was simply expressing surprise that she, not women in general, should have initiated sex.

Eleanor म्हणाले...

On any given day no good relationship is ever equal. Over the decades things usually even out. Good partners bring all they have into the relationship and take from it what they need. As long as both people's needs are sufficiently met, the relationship has a good chance of succeeding. It's communism perfected. It sounds like this woman gets swamped in the details. Like an actuary would.

Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...

New updated title:

"How I fell for a 'Man'-Man, botched it, and became a 'Cat' Woman"

robother म्हणाले...

"Ve haff ways of making you talk" could be an interesting come-on from a woman in certain professions. Actuarial science is not one of those professions.

Wince म्हणाले...

I see an artist at an easel, surrounded by dozens of discarded and torn self portraits surrounding her feet, all very different from one another.

What we used to call a 'bullshit artist'.

Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...

"A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband."

WTF!!! Who the Hell does this? Have sex with someone, possibly for the first time, and then goes off about previous sexual experiences. Besides being rude, it is incredibly insensitive.

My husband and I were both married previously. Neither of us were under the illusion that we were virgins. We didn't pretend to not have had relationships in the past, previous marriage, dating histories. That would be beyond stupid.

However, what is really stupid is to share intimate details about those past relationships. I don't want to know his....and mine are none of his business.

This woman is a hot mess. Run away!!!

tcrosse म्हणाले...

I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

"Roll over and I'll show you what my ex used to do."

chuck म्हणाले...

Guys, avoid the crazee.

Ken B म्हणाले...

Actuary/lawyer
An actuary's job is to tell the truth.

Ignorance is Bliss म्हणाले...

Fernandistein said...

Nothing a good fuck wouldn't cure.

And all it took was one good fuck to cure her crazy...

...said no man, ever.

virgil xenophon म्हणाले...

@robother/

"Ve haff veys..."

FIFY :)

James K म्हणाले...

"the restraint during chess"

Chess restraint is a well-known relationship-killer.

Kalli Davis म्हणाले...

The key issue here is that deception never works. You cannot hide who your are. Eventually your love will see you. Now, if your ways aren't working then change your ways; or ask Gd to change you.

Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...

Re sharing sexual information: However, what is really stupid is to share intimate details about those past relationships. I don't want to know his....and mine are none of his business

Disclaimer....unless there is information about potential health/STD issue type of things. Then, please share.

;-D

stlcdr म्हणाले...

"...What was the point of this article?It sounds like this woman gets swamped in the details..."

aka. 'keeping score'.

Darrell म्हणाले...

I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

Before she spoke he said "Let me guess. . .two in the pink and one in the stink, right?"

MikeR म्हणाले...

Sad story. Progressive woman, mugged by reality... Hiding from herself in so many ways.

HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...

Trump's America, am I right??

Ken B म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
John henry म्हणाले...

I'm not clear on the concept of how her ex-husband divorced her. Was she such a horrible person that after divorcing her, and becoming her ex-husband, he divorced het again?

Could one of our resident attorneys explain how this works?

John Henry

Ken B म्हणाले...


I turned to him.
"My ex" I said, "Geeze what a cock on him! I couldn't keep my hands off! I was after him nearly every night. I had an anal bleaching to entice him. My God".
He seemed offended by my strong female sexuality. "You initiated?" he asked in surprise.

President-Mom-Jeans म्हणाले...

Stupid feminist who will die and be consumed by her many cats.

These people are worthless.

Pookie Number 2 म्हणाले...

I wonder whether if you're an actuary, the person you go out with ever says, "You're such an actuary."

Yes. Of course, it’s my wife, so she knows more about actuaries than a normal person should.

PatHMV म्हणाले...

It is very difficult to figure out who you really are, and to be true to yourself. Unfortunately, some people never get past the high school phase of life, where you desperately try to fit in and conform to what you think others expect of you.

mtrobertslaw म्हणाले...

It would be interesting to see a sociological study that compares the percentage of dysfunctional M/F relationships between progressives with the percentage of dysfunctional M/F relationships between conservatives. But I don't think there will ever be one.

Rory म्हणाले...

stlcdr said: "So, lawyers tell lawyer jokes?"

Lawyers tell client jokes.

Michael K म्हणाले...

At least Democrats are not reproducing.

That may be why they want those immigrants.

gilbar म्हणाले...

"in part because I knew doing so would displease him"
SHE KNEW! She KNEW it would displease him; 'cause she could Read His Mind.
{She also KNEW that he could 'see through' her deceptions }

Was there a guy on earth that would be displeased by An OFFER to pay (not an insistence) ?
She was SO SMART, but she Couldn't see that he didn't really care for being lied to ?

So, liberal white girl gets tired of beta white guys, and goes black (oh, sorry; 'swarthy'); then dumps him after she gets her rocks off. Am i reading this right, or what?

Martha म्हणाले...

Susan Forray does get some insight at the end of her sad tale of woe:

“That’s the thing about gender roles. They can meet a need you were afraid to acknowledge, and they can take it all away when you don’t conform.”


Seeing Red म्हणाले...

The female sex shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

This is way too much information about this person.

robother म्हणाले...

Instead of an oral interrogation administered by an actuary, a lawyer would serve the potential boyfriend with a set of written interrogatories.

MadisonMan म्हणाले...

I won't read the article.

But the comments here are hilarious. Thank you.

curt म्हणाले...

As a young lawyer, one of the best tips I ever received from a senior lawyer was to tell those folks on an airplane who ask you what you do for a living that you were an actuary.

Owen म्हणाले...

We should be grateful to her, and all the others like her, whose pathology is not complete unles they SHARE.

Consider how many trillions of dollars it would take in payments to shrinks, over many years, to extract a very shaky and uncertain approximation of the account she has freely offered up.

Read it and weep (for her). Read it and rejoice (for the rest of us).

Bushman of the Kohlrabi म्हणाले...

Lucky guy. It's best when the crazy is obvious early on in the relationship.

Leslie Graves म्हणाले...

On the spectrum is the phrase they use for hot messes like this.

gilbar म्हणाले...

ok, i went and read the article; and...

she did NOT dump him, he dumped her. For being a lying cold fish, that spent all her time in bed talking about sex with her ex; after mooching free dinners off of the new guy.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Thurber's "The War between Men and Women" for some reason isn't online that I can find.

It starts with a thrown drink
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rhhardin/30623642667

and goes on for 17 frames.

James K म्हणाले...

The problem is that actuaries are good at math. That blew her cover at playing the helpless ditz.

AlbertAnonymous म्हणाले...

Absolute F’ing garbage.

I want to call her a batshit crazy feminist, but that would be redundant.

Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...

Memo to men: Don't sleep with crazy Leftwing women. Even the good looking ones, even the actuaries!

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM म्हणाले...

IIRC, Gloria Steinem recounts a time, on a dark and stormy nite, appreciating being picked up in a limo by Morton Zuckerman, a warm and secure cocoon provided by a man.

Fish want bicycles!

rcocean म्हणाले...

I vaguely remember seeing an IQ chart by occupation and Actuaries were almost at the very top.

What a dishonest woman! When was she going to disclose the fact of being Jewish? Or that her behavior was all an act?

Not only dishonest but dumb. You can only pretend for so long and then the real you comes out. And usually the other person has to deal with "the real you" and the fact you deceived them.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

The Accountant (2016) with Anna Kendrick was good. Mr. Right (2015) good too, two Kendrick winners in a row.

rcocean म्हणाले...

If you want another "crazy bitch" look up the letter that Grassley wrote about Sweatnick - there's a whole life of crazy.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

Henry said...Bizarre. "Controlling didn't work for me, so I decided to try Dishonest."

You sum it up nicely.

"Since my ex-husband had divorced me the previous year"

"My husband divorced me and found it so rewarding that he went and divorced me again."

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Anna Kendrick is good as a fun but unappreciated character.

rcocean म्हणाले...

BTW, if you're looking for good looking babes, skip the actuary department.

Jersey Fled म्हणाले...

Humble bragging about how superior she is to men.

And why is it that the NYT wants to present these disfunction women as ideals for liberal women lately.

Annie म्हणाले...

So the NYT has turned into a Cosmo-type rag.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"present these disfunction women as ideals for liberal women lately."

While presenting humble-braggy philosophy profs apologizing for exercising male privilege as ideals for men.

It's all part of the SarahJeongification of the NYT.

LA_Bob म्हणाले...

I guess the feminist meme in this story is that men won't accept a woman as an equal and they won't accept a woman who dishonestly makes herself weaker for him. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. So, the (unwritten conclusion might be that the) road to happiness for women is to give up men, at least as "partners".

Oh, but she clearly wants a man. Quite badly. What to do...what to do...

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

"When he asked if I ever went to church, I said no — but failed to mention I was Jewish."

{Shaking head]

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Exactly the kind of woman any man should run from on first sight.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

This woman is a hot mess. Run away!!!

Yup.

Big Mike म्हणाले...

A marriage of equals can work very well, but it starts with respecting yourself, and being honest with yourself, then continues with respecting your partner and being honest with your partners, as much as you respect yourself and are honest with yourself.

And that’s just for starters. Partnerships take work.

elkh1 म्हणाले...

Guess the responsible, generous, trustworthy man doesn't trust phonies.

n.n म्हणाले...

She can't know what she never understood.

FIDO म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
FIDO म्हणाले...

We just had an article about this: Woke Women Waking without those they Wed.

This isn't just about lying to a potential partner.

It is about recognition of brand; ruination. The Hip Urban Intelligent Career Woman ™ Brand has been Feminized and Forded. Men don't see much long term prospects in that anymore. Not any man who can read divorce statistics.


This woman, in the pit of her black heart, realizes this...and tries to masquerade as a Conservative woman. Because she is lonely. Because she is missing something in her life and she lives in a Dating Desert.


Now, this is a sad story about HER life, but the newspaper is sending quite the different message, I think. It is a cautionary tale: don't cave! They won't accept you anyway! Stay strong, unmarried and voting Democrat!


I am not sure that the newspaper is wrong. I certainly would have trust issues with a lifelong Democrat woman. Just not worth the downside that they might be Ball Busters like Mika Brzeznski or Michelle Goldberg without the spectacular racks.
Not to mention the political arguments.

FIDO म्हणाले...

That being said, I am not getting the 'money' issue as much as I used to.

Just don't combine your incomes. She wants fancy things. She buys fancy things. Don't let her touch YOUR money.

But her career meant more than her prospects and she got what was important to her. Men have to face the prospect of not getting what they want all the time too.

Larvell म्हणाले...

It goes without saying that these things are fiction, right?

Rabel म्हणाले...

"When I made the mistake of mentioning work, he finally asked enough questions to find my career history online."

All that he needed was her name. So she's lying about that too.

A Jewish redhead. Is that common?

Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...

"...claimed it was a man’s job to manage a couple’s money,"

I thought it was a Jew's job.

Van Wallach म्हणाले...

Her JDate profile practically writes itself: "I hate conservatives, but I love to talk about sex with my ex."

Bob Loblaw म्हणाले...

A few hours later, I lay next to him, noticing the swarthiness of his arms against my pale skin. I told him a story about sex with my ex-husband.

PSA: Nobody wants to hear about sex with your last partner.

Bob Loblaw म्हणाले...

Just don't combine your incomes. She wants fancy things. She buys fancy things. Don't let her touch YOUR money.

That doesn't really work, though. If she makes a lot of money, she's going to expect vacations on faraway beaches and not camping at the local national park, dinner at expensive restaurants. You'd be under continual pressure to live within her means but beyond yours.

Rosalyn C. म्हणाले...

"Heaven forbid" she would consider dating a conservative and observant Jewish man who has traditional family and gender values and appreciates her financial acumen. It's funny/strange/sad that she would more readily date a conservative Christian and lie about herself.

Zach म्हणाले...

I had interrogated the last man I dated on his Democratic bona fides before agreeing to meet for coffee.

Don't do this.

I mentioned my cabinetry problems, as if to say, 'See, I don’t earn more than you. I can’t even afford a normal kitchen.' It was a last-ditch effort to turn myself into the person I thought he wanted and also the person I wanted to be: a woman who needed to be protected."

Don't do this.

In the end, the man breaks it off with her and she uses her own money to get her cabinets done.

She asked him to pay for her cabinets? (From the article, it's ambiguous whether she was asking outright. But she does use paying for her own cabinets as the stinger at the end, so ...)

Don't do that. Don't do any of that.

This is someone who is pathologically self centered. She uses a zero commitment coffee date as an opportunity to badger some guy about his voting history. The next guy thinks that going to church is important, so she conceals that she's Jewish. He's careful about money, so she conceals that she makes more than him, and angles for him to replace her cabinets.

What's missing here is the idea that the guy might have some preferences, or be entitled to polite behavior.

A coffee date isn't really a fun date. It's a better way to get to know somebody than reading a profile. It should be accepted unconditionally if you're interested, or politely rejected if you're not. The idea that the guy has to earn an hour of chitchat by voting correctly is absurd. Just politely decline and move on.

If someone is looking for a religious partner, then not letting them know you're not religious (or don't even share the religion!) is disrespectful. You're saying that what you're looking for is more important than what they're looking for.

Being vague about how much money you make is fine. There are a lot of hustlers out there.

You should never, ever, ever ask a date for money, or sound like you are. I'd say especially if you make more money than the other person, but that sounds like there's an exception if you're poor. No exceptions.

When I next saw him, he was sullen and withdrawn.

Well, sure. She was manipulating him at every opportunity. Sooner or later, feelings are gonna get hurt.

Zach म्हणाले...

I missed the part about throwing chess games when she had chess books on the shelves.

I'll guess that the origin of the problem is that she used to be married to a man she didn't respect. So she either lost the habit of treating her partner as an equal, or never developed it in the first place.