Said Danish defense minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen, complaining about "uncertainty," because Trump "plays in a completely different way than the rest of us."
Quoted in "'Very stable' Trump? European leaders beg to differ/The president’s wild shifts in tone left many NATO allies concluding no hidden strategy lies behind his unpredictability."
Trump, as the headline notes, repeated his joke/boast/opinion that he's "a very stable genius." That came when a Croatian journalist asked him: "We understand your message, but some people ask themselves, will you be tweeting differently once you board the Air Force One?" Trump's answer was: "No, that's other people that do that. I don’t. I’m very consistent. I’m a very stable genius."
ALSO:
A senior NATO official said leaders had concluded that they simply could not rely on anything Trump said. “You know the way he speaks, you cannot take him literally,” the official said.AND: Retweeted by Trump:
Another EU official echoed the point. “He speaks a language that doesn’t match with diplomacy,” the second official said. “We were used to the Brits, who speak a more frank diplomatic language, but this is another thing.”...
But for evidence that he is, in fact, a “genius,” Trump might point to the closing assessment of NATO’s secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg... “All allies have heard President Trump’s message loud and clear. We understand that this American president is very serious about defense spending... There is a new sense of urgency due to President Trump’s strong leadership on defense spending.”
.@realDonaldTrump's shadow is reflected on the wall as he makes a statement and answers questions as he departs the NATO Summit in Brussels, Belgium. Also reflected is Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and National Security Adviser John Bolton. pic.twitter.com/5kDKWplpH4
— Doug Mills (@dougmillsnyt) July 12, 2018
IN THE COMMENTS: Bob Boyd wrote:
Trump: You have to start paying what you agreed to pay.
Diplomats huddle up: What does he mean? I don't know. I've never heard this kind of language before. Neither have I. I'm baffled. It makes no sense. He can't possibly think any of us would actually pay our... No, I don't think so. No one would. Well what then? I must admit, I'm completely at sea.
पोस्ट्स
१११ टिप्पण्या:
That's about right. Trump is first a defender of Montana's northern border from the hateful Brits. 54/40 or fight was not a joke.
"It is difficult to decode what policy the American president is promoting. There is a complete unpredictability in this, and one of the things you need in this alliance is predictability towards Russia."
Doesn't Trump know that the way this works is that you feed the rubes a lot of palaver then tell us elites what you really think, which is that those guys back in the upper midwest are economically doomed because we want their jobs, that are of course pointless and worthless, to be moved here.
A senior NATO official said leaders had concluded that they simply could not rely on anything Trump said. “You know the way he speaks, you cannot take him literally,”
If only people would take heed. Seriously, not literally
I'm guessing Trump is seeking support among his core constituency for his foreign policy. These's something odd about that?
"Predictability" seems to me to be a code word for "have the same policies as Obama and Bush."
The "unpredictability" is Trump's demand that the Europeans pay a higher percentage of their defense costs vis-a-vis the Russians.
I still pinch myself that I was lucky enough to be alive during the Trump presidency. I didn't vote for him, I voted against Hillary, and I would have voted for almost anybody else, including Bernie, whom I think of as an economic doofus.
They understand him, loud and clear. They just don't want to admit the truths he speaks, per the usual diplomatic 'speak soothingly but do nothing to upset our cozy, cushy positions of privilege and power'.
Trump forces change, uncomfortable thought it may be. Look where comfortable complacency has gotten us.
Trump is first a defender of Montana's northern border from the hateful Brits. 54/40 or fight was not a joke.
Damn Straight! I don't want to have to worship a queen! Keep American for the Americans!! Brits OUT! Free Canada
The NATO nations first of all need to re-examine what they are about now that the Soviet Union has collapsed (30 years ago!), then reform/reorganize NATO to meet today's problems (with a view to tomorrow's!).
And "spend more" is BS. They need to spend more all right, but on things that matter in geo-political terms; not just graft and welfare pump priming.
It's not that hard to predict what Trump is going to say as long as you tell yourself "The jig is up" and then imagine that Trump has the best interests of the US at heart.
Shorter Trump:
The gravy train is over. No more living off of the American taxpayer while you stab us in the back economically.
No wonder the European elites are shitting their pants.
This is a load of horse shit, as they say in Montana, meant for media consumption. These geniuses are supposed to be able to tease out the subtleties and nuances of high stakes, international negotiations translated from Russian or Chinese or Arabic or whatever and they can't understand Donald Trump?
" and they can't understand Donald Trump? " Clearly their problem is that they understand him All Too Well; and it scares them. No More Gravy Train
People who can't understand Trump simply have no empathy for much of America. "Why aren't they just happy to take the dole and sent their jobs overseas?"
Maybe it's because many Americans are Idiots, I suppose . <<-- Written by a Canadian.
Seriously, maybe some Democrats should watch the above linked video if they want to understand how Trump won.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, a leader of the pro-'hard' Brexit party in Parliament, tweeted earlier, "President Trump clearly understands the white paper better than some ministers. #BrexitmeansBrexit." The 'white paper' is Mrs Mays' current 'soft' Brexit plan.
The best way to help children grow up is to say good bye, mom and dad have left the room. Negotiate for yourself or depend on the EC to do it, or find another sugar daddy, we don't care. Every Billion dollars I burn up on this nonsense is 100K jobs in the U.S. It ends now. good luck.Make your own deals.It's not like we/I did not warn you.
The NATO ministers don't want to cough up the money they owe. They are using the old "I don't know what you want me to do" trick. Here a hint--do what he says. The US has been paying the piper and now we are calling the tunes.
Uncertainty is a feature of people undergoing change.
For decades the Euros were certain the harsh rhetoric about their defense spending would not be backed up with action.
Today they are uncertain.
Trump speaks his mind. People who do this are very confusing to diplomats.
What's not consistent about America First? Job Jobs Jobs. It's Selfish, Well cry me a river. We need to fix our health care. Rather than then follow you into no innovation hell. Good luck with the coming Turkish invasion.
The ossified elites in Europe are used to the formal dance moves that have been perfected about the time of the Minuet (that's the 1700's dance in powdered wigs, for the rest of you Deporables). The Kabuki theatre of diplomacy is what they are used to and what they want.
Instead of the minute and meaningless diplomacy that the snooty Europeans are used to, like the Revolutionary early Americans who literally blew that out of the water and won our independence. Trump is showing them how Americans operate.
This does not mean that Trump is not using "diplomacy". Trump is just NOT speaking the ossified language or wearing the powdered wig. He is dumping the Tea into the harbor and speaking the rude truth in a way that offends their delicate sensibilities. There isn't anything uncertain about his speech. He isn't playing their game. He is play OUR game. OUR rules.
This is why he was elected.
Trump: You have to start paying what you agreed to pay.
Diplomats huddle up: What does he mean? I don't know. I've never heard this kind of language before. Neither have I. I'm baffled. It makes no sense. He can't possibly think any of us would actually pay our... No, I don't think so. No one would. Well what then? I must admit, I'm completely at sea.
Bob Boyd said...
This is a load of horse shit, as they say in Montana, meant for media consumption.
Horse, "stable genius" get it?
A horse is a horse of course of course
And no one can talk to a horse of course.
That is of course unless the one
Is the famous Stable Genius!
A question for the philosophers: Which came first, Mr. Ed or F-Troop?
But of course, Althouse, the objective truth that you seem to ignore is exactly what that reporter suggested. Trump will say one thing in a meeting, and then turn around and describe that meeting in a completely different way, or he will reverse himself or, when he is called out on what was actually agreed or not agreed, attack his meeting partners. We have seen it repeatedly.
I suppose that focusing on these kinds “Trump genius” (?) items distracts you and your readership from talking about the plainly counter factual or just plain weird stuff that the guy says on a more or less regular basis. Like yesterday’s claim that the GDP of the United States had doubled or tripled since he became president. Or his wondering why we don’t use the word “England” enough anymore (apparently in discussing world affairs). And that was just in the space of a day.
I don’t know about the balloon. It seems silly to me. But perhaps at some level, it is the kind of emotion-based “kill shot” that Scott Adams likes to talk about. As meaningful as talking about “Little Rocket Man” or “Crooked Hillary.” As Adams says (in a CNN interview, and not in his book about how “Facts don’t matter”);
"The first thing you want to do, if you want to persuade, is you want to move people's attention and energy to where you want it. And that maybe because you're moving it away from something you don't want them to be talking about."
So you’re doing some good “Adams” here; talking about something else to move attention away from what is uncomfortable to talk about.
+1 upvote - Bob Boyd comment!
Brilliant...
Which came first, Mr. Ed or F-Troop?
Mr. Ed.
Not even close.
"Nobody knows when Trump is doing international diplomacy and when he is doing election campaigning in Montana."
George Patton, when an aide cautioned him that his staff couldn't tell when he was serious and when he was acting, he said "It's not important that they know, it's only important that I know." Same applies to the Danish defense minister wrt Trump.
Keep searching for those strawberries Chuckles.....meanwhile the rest of us have a war to win.
Pedantic guy here: in the tweet, it should be projected, not reflected.
Chuck admits he is a liar when it comes to Trump.
Trump has been consistent to all of us.
But then we don't parse what he said today with shit he said three years ago and try to create a mash-up.
Chuck, see if you can hold your breath for five minutes. If you can, try 10.
Trump’s 180s (publicly critical one day, full of love the next, as with PM May) remind me of the dentist scene in Marathon Man. He wants people to know that he can deliver pain or pleasure at the drop of a hat, so that you’ll do what’s needed to get the pleasure.
When it's not reflected,
You're projected.
You're pedantic guy.
Smile, you're on Blogger.com.
But then we don't parse what he said today with shit he said three years ago and try to create a mash-up.
Three years? In just over a day he went from deriding NATO and threatening to take his ball and go home to NATO is stronger than ever. And what promises did he extract? Absolutely none. Macron came out and said that France was not changing its spending plans, and I bet none of the other countries will either.
Trump (and most of the people commenting on this thread) is delusional if he thinks his temper tantrum did any good.
Professional diplomats complaining that negotiating with Trump is difficult.
It's like a boxer saying, I could hit the guy if he'd just keep still, but he won't.
Trump (and most of the people commenting on this thread) is delusional if he thinks his temper tantrum did any good.
It makes a pleasant change from bowing and scraping while kissing their ass.
And what promises did he extract?
They all promised to meet their obligations or better, sooner than the old plan.
They reneged once he left the room--making them heroes in Freder's eyes. Trump should counter saying "Good. I was leaning to leaving NATO anyway. Germany status is currently deficient in all areas--in violation of the agreement. They don't even have a single transport plane that is ready for service.
Blogger Bob Boyd said...
Trump: You have to start paying what you agreed to pay.
Diplomats huddle up: What does he mean? I don't know. I've never heard this kind of language before. Neither have I. I'm baffled. It makes no sense. He can't possibly think any of us would actually pay our... No, I don't think so. No one would. Well what then? I must admit, I'm completely at sea.
But that isn’t what happened. Trump went into a meeting with other leaders who all have had their own domestic constituencies, and Trump said, basically to his own domestic constituency, “I’ll get these people to pay more.” Trump’s doing that hurt the alliance and helped Putin but that seems to be a feature and not a bug, for Donald Trump.
They meet, and the other NATO member leaders say, “We’ll think about it.” And then Trump walks out of the meeting and says, “It was a great meeting. Very special. I cant tell you how special it was, it was so special. And now I think they are going to pay more, and pay faster into NATO defense spending.”
The alliance is damaged, trust is damaged, credibility is damaged; but Trump is enhanced with his base, and Putin is enhanced in his autocracy.
If their word is no good--fuck them.
They would surrender anyway once the last American couldn't fight any longer.
"Nobody knows when Trump is doing international diplomacy and when he is doing election campaigning in Montana."
Translation: We were told in the past the president’s words were for the rubes back home, not for us.
Freder is right. Americans don't want jobs or security. They want to be doormats to the Europeans, and by extension, Russia, oh yeah, and to China too. We want our borders to be erased. That's the Democratic platform and its a sure winner. I don't get why Trump can't see that. What an idiot.
"Trump ready to own the libs by [checks notes] getting Corbyn elected"
Trump is a genius. The western alliance is impressed. Diplomats are encouraged by the deft diplomatic dance of the Americans. Brits can't dry their own clothes! Trump is going to free them from the dryer issues.
Canada suffers from a shoe shortage. Canadians travel to the United States to buy shoes and Maple Syrup. The shoes are scuffed up to be smuggled into the country. Trump is liberating Canada from this oppression.
Trump's poll numbers are better then Abe Lincoln. You should see the polling techniques pre-telephone. Much more accurate.
The alliance is damaged, trust is damaged, credibility is damaged.
That happened when counties signed the deal with no intention of honoring it.
When the people who’ve been ripping you off say you “damaged” the partnership by pointing it out, you know you never had a partner to begin with.
Germany status is currently deficient in all areas--in violation of the agreement. They don't even have a single transport plane that is ready for service.
This above all.
If NATO is absolutley hollow on the field of battle EXCEPT for US forces, NATO should be dissolved.
First of all why should we be the only real defense of Europe?
Secondly how can we put our forces in harms way relying on "allies" that won't be there when the balloon goes up?
Secondly how can we put our forces in harms way relying on "allies" that won't be there when the balloon goes up?
That's "Firstly" if you ask me.
Evidently, Chuck is still longing to bring back the Minuet and powdered wigs.
I'm currently reading about the powerful 16th century daimyo, Oda Nobunaga, who reminds me of Trump in many respects. In a culture where directness was never expected, nor condoned, Nobunaga's unpredictability and shockingly direct approach threw his enemies into confusion and turmoil. And, ultimately, into defeat.
A senior NATO official said leaders had concluded that they simply could not rely on anything Trump said. “You know the way he speaks, you cannot take him literally,” the official said.
Interesting spin. Not taking Trump’s words “literally” doesn’t mean you can’t rely on anything he says. Trump is prone to bluster and hyperbole, but he typically has some message he wants to convey. If you can’t take him literally, you should still take him seriously.
I don’t know how many responses to Chuck I’m tempted to begin with, “Wait, you’re a lawyer, right?”
They all promised to meet their obligations or better, sooner than the old plan.
No they didn't.
Like I said, you and he are delusional.
I mean, Mr. Legal Eagle thinks it’s bad form to point out a breach of contract?
Trump's approval among Republicans is something like 85%. Chuck should abandon his dream of depriving 85% of his professed party of their preferred candidate, or just go to the Democrats, or maybe admit to himself that he is little more than an agent provocateur of the Schumer/Pelosi axis.
"But that isn’t what happened."
You're right, Chuck, that isn't what happened, but the Euro diplomats are telling the media it did happen, that they are confused. And I am pointing out how ridiculous their story is. They aren't confused, they just don't want to pay what they agreed to pay.
I don't think telling them they need to pony up is going to damage the alliance. They can't be asked to do what they said they'd do? They might get mad at us? Is Nato that fragile? Would it damage the alliance if we asked them to join us in an actual military effort some day?
How did it damage the alliance? Either they finally live up to their obligations or the status quo continues.
What are they going to do? Quit NATO and defend themselves? Spend even less on their defense?
"threw his enemies into confusion and turmoil. And, ultimately, into defeat."
The Western alliance is indeed confused and in turmoil.
On the 4th of July a British friend posted "Happy 4th of July" to America on Facebook. He wrote "we're still friends, right?"
In the minuet and powdered wig days, Europe fought the bloodiest European wars till the Napoleonic era, in terms of military casualties over a comparable period. These conflicts initiated by Louis XIV featured larger armies in larger battles than those of the Thirty Years War. The civilian losses were much lower, because of its different character and because the wars were (mainly) kept on a military basis, avoiding general social chaos.
Diplomacy also was, though aristocratic, a brutal business.
Trump is on an apology tour. He's telling the Europeans, I'm sorry if my predecessor gave you the wrong idea.
Chuck says:
"But of course, Althouse, the objective truth that you seem to ignore is exactly what that reporter suggested. Trump will say one thing in a meeting, and then turn around and describe that meeting in a completely different way, or he will reverse himself or, when he is called out on what was actually agreed or not agreed, attack his meeting partners. We have seen it repeatedly."
I am not saying you are wrong, but can you provide an example?
Because from what I can tell Trump did something like this:
Go to Montana for a rally and say something like "And I am going to tell those other leaders of NATO countries that they need to pay more. Americans are tired of paying for their defense."
And later Trump tweets to the world:"Getting ready to leave for Europe. First meeting — NATO. The U.S. is spending many times more than any other country in order to protect them. Not fair to the U.S. taxpayer. On top of that we lose $151 Billion on Trade with the European Union. Charge us big Tariffs (& Barriers)!"
And then at the NATO summit he apparently told Europeans in face to face talks that they need to pay more.
I *love* this. So, if you could show me an example where "Trump will say one thing in a meeting, and then turn around and describe that meeting in a completely different way" I would really like to see it. It would help me temper my enthusiasm. Also, it would help me understand those Never Trumpers a little bit better.
Please and thank you.
Confusion and turmoil is due to fundamental divergence of goals.
Like, for instance, the identification of an enemy.
If "Russia" is the enemy, then Nato isnt doing much to reassure the Poles and Estonians and Latvians and Norwegians and Swedes and Finns, that face the most direct threats. Germany is not helping.
Germany is providing Russia with its principal market and financing its expansion into that market through its pipeline JVs. And of course financing the Russian military budget.
All the while the Poles and the Baltics are frantically arming themselves as best they can against German-financed Russia. Add to that both Norway and Sweden doing the same, against the same threats.
This situation is NOT laid out in its actual state if one were to limit oneself to the MSM. Except that one can, if interested, take disassociated facts and reassemble them. Swedish, Polish, Baltic rearmament, Norwegian military exercises, German military weakness, and German energy policy are all counterfactuals to the MSM line.
Add to that EU hostility to the Polish (and underreported, Baltic) governments that are in the front line and most willing to resist Russia.
There is a bureacratic line being sold through the state-aligned MSM of several nations, and the US, that is designed to obscure reality. Why this particular set of smokescreens I dont know.
I love when people claim govt is so complex. Hell in Philadelphia, they can't even reconcile their city bank accounts. Yet the Dems think they can make our laws and rules complicated and even contradictory and it will all be sorted by our genius govt employees.
"Said Danish defense minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen, complaining about 'uncertainty,' because Trump 'plays in a completely different way than the rest of us.'"
Not our kind, you know. These guys need to watch "Caddyshack." Forced to do so if need be. And then reflect on why it is that the Rodney Dangerfield character is the one audiences love, laugh, and identify with.
Government has always been "complex".
It is no more complex today, on the part of its managers, than it was to Louis XIV's great Minister Colbert. It may be surprising to moderns to understand the complicated organizational minutiae of a semi-feudal, chaotically regionalized regime. It is helpful to read, for instance, my favorite Hippolyte Taine on the subject of the French ancien regime.
The French system of governance was, indeed, massively simplified.
The alliance is damaged, trust is damaged, credibility is damaged.
Rip Van Winkle, you finally WOKE UP!
You’ve missed a lot, that’s been going on for at least a decade or more.
On a side note as to meeting the commitments they agreed upon, oh, well, they could always cut Aid to Palestinians for starters.
Trump's NATO strategy seems really clear and simple to me: Pay [more] for your own defense, and if you are worried about Putin, quit making deals with Russia that are advantageous to Putin. In short, start behaving like you have the best interests of your country in mind.
Bob Boyd @ 9:29: Ka-boom.
Sweden. SWEDEN is prepping.
Poland Latvia and the former USSR satellites is understandable, but SWEDEN?
Maybe they see something you don’t, Chuck.
AJ only when run by Dems is the country or their portion of it ungovernable. They’ve said it to explain away why things don’t get done or work like when their grandiose ideas fail.
Said Danish defense minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen, complaining about 'uncertainty,' because Trump 'plays in a completely different way than the rest of us.'"
American.
They don’t understand US and never did.
"The alliance is damaged, trust is damaged, credibility is damaged; but Trump is enhanced with his base, and Putin is enhanced in his autocracy."
Trump told them in February of last year that they needed to start getting to the 2% level of GNP that they had agreed to years before but had reneged on. Obama told them the same thing in 2014. Trump told them the same thing before he went there this week and then he told them again when he got there. The US taxpayer is paying an additional $286 billion per year, every fucking year, because Germany, France, Canada, Spain,Italy, Belguim and others are deadbeats. Now they say they'll contribute and additonal $36 billion or so this year and maybe get up to a total of $260 billion more by 2024. In the meantime you and I will be making up the $1.4 trillion difference between what they owe and what they might actually pay. Trump isn't the one damaging the alliance and he's not the one securing Russia's autocracy. It's my European neighbors who are doing that. And you're taking the European side because why? Because you can't support Trump even if it means adding $1.4 trillion to the national debt. You, Chuck, are one sick motherfucker. Tell me, how did someone as illogical and vapid as you get through law school? Asking for a European neighbor.
To put it another way, if Germany had a couple of Panzer divisions of the old Cold War level of readiness, prepared to move to Poland or Estonia at need, plus a Luftwaffe to back them, no-one in Eastern Europe would have to fear Russia. Note that in 1989 they had TEN of these "heavy" divisions, besides more in reserve.
Waa waa waa--or you could say these guys are getting all wee wee'd up when a dose of reality smacks them in the face. The free lunch is over. Put your big boy pants on and start paying up.
Sort of reminds me of the parents who sued to get their 30 year old son to leave the house--or was it the 30 year old son suing to stop his parents from evicting him?
It does appear that the message was received--whether these perpetually arrested development adolescents will act on it is another question.
I loved how Trump enhanced Putin's autocracy by publicly criticizing Merkel for giving Russia a stranglehold over Germany via control over energy supply and funneling billions to him annually.
He's one crafty fellow.
Reminiscent of Alfred Newman's iconic photograph of Alfried Krupp
European's are good at this stuff
This is not simply a matter of these people neglecting their obligations.
This is rather a question of fundamental policy, that is, what side they are on.
German policy for instance, across the board, and through both Nato and EU channels.
Big hands. Yuge.
Well, some, anyway, of the Europeans are simpler to understand, as simply neglectful.
Or rather simply cheap, or as usual in desperate financial straits.
I doubt there is some deep policy in Spain.
Germany however...
And, for anyone who's been paying attention, the shit between Germany & Russia has been stinking for a long time.
Can you imagine what would happen in the US if an ex-Speaker of the House, or VP, or President went to work shilling for Russia? Well, that's exactly what ex-Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder did!
Talk about having Russian puppets in office!
The Left wing of Labour has always been anti-American, & was also much more pro-Soviet than was generally let on in the American media. In short, while a large majority of Americans think we have a "special relationship" with the Brits, a large fraction of Brits would not agree.
My British husband would have agreed, in that Britain will always see the US as a brash upstart but there is also a grudging respect and a definite fascination. And the contempt is more gamesmanship than genuine dislike. We are still more respected than the French.
@wwww,
On the 4th of July a British friend posted "Happy 4th of July" to America on Facebook. He wrote "we're still friends, right?"
I understand that your Brit friend was just pulling your leg, but the truth is that the Brits have a very obdurant** streak of anti-Americanism in their society. It's a little known fact that in some pollings, the French actually come out as more pro-US than the UK.
The Left wing of Labour has always been anti-American, & was also much more pro-Soviet than was generally let on in the American media. In short, while a large majority of Americans think we have a "special relationship" with the Brits, a large fraction of Brits would not agree.
** "Obdurant" can't be found by spell check? WTF!!?
Also, comment edited & re-posted, which is why it just seems like Ms Mockturtle is clairvoyant.
Bob Boyd’s take is hilarious. I rarely use LOL but this one deserves it ... literally.
LOL.
"This is not simply a matter of these people neglecting their obligations."
Exactly.
If the Germans have made themselves reliant on Russian energy, it might be impossible for them to meet their obligations and join in a Nato military effort. For example, what if Russia decided to claim and occupy a chunk of say, Finland and the Finns called on Nato to respond? Are the Germans going to say, "Sorry, but our people will freeze to death if we act against the Russians. And sorry again, but you can't use our airfields, airspace or any Nato military assets currently on German soil. Guten tag?"
Linear thinkers like nearly the entire self-proclaimed elite can not fathom Trump’s creative, associative approach to issues.
Given the messes that the elites have created around the world, perhaps it’s time for new thinking, and news ways of conceptualizing issues in order to break the linear thinking stalemates.
It’s disheartening to see how inflexible and limited in adaptation the old elites seem to be.
YH, it's obdurate.
Reminds me of when Ali G said "respeck" is so rare these days that he can't even find it in the dictionary.
@jaydub 9:59AM: Right on, jaydub. Excellent comment and response to Chuck. You are exactly correct.
I understand that your Brit friend was just pulling your leg,
This wasn't a message specifically to me. It was a message to his facebook feed. For context, he has some American friends on facebook, but most are not.
Some feel we stole their birthright.
In just over a day he went from deriding NATO and threatening to take his ball and go home to NATO is stronger than ever.
Did it work?
Do they wear brown underroos to their meetings with The Donald?
It’s not like he didn’t tell them his expectations beforehand but American or English isn’t their first language. Did they ignore what he said here? Did they think it was for domestic consumption for the rubes and it’d be the Good Ole Boy network like it’s always been when h3 gets there?
"Nobody knows when Trump is doing international diplomacy and when he is doing election campaigning in Montana."
The sad truth is that every one of the world's "elites" believe that what is said while campaigning in Montana should be different from what is said when doing international diplomacy...
Absolutely none. Macron came out and said that France was not changing its spending plans, and I bet none of the other countries will either.
I bet they do.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Stoltenberg states the obvious. Trump is rebuilding the American military. He is not doing that to invade DNC headquarters.
NATO leaders get that Trump is blowing up their rules. They don’t get what that means.
Maybe it means it’s time for them to change their own diapers.
Germany teaming up with Russia to screw the rest of Europe and turning violently anti Semitic.
How original.
Jaydub I wasn't trying to take the "European side" in a debate about NATO defense contributions. My point was so much more simple, and irrefutable. Trump made a stink about getting better contributions from the Euro-nation defense slackers. Presumably, Trump thought that he'd bully and bluster them into behaving differently.
There's a cost to doing business like that. It costs, in trust and in good ally relations. maybe it's good on balance to do things that way, if you get results. Maybe it would be good, if Trump got results that way. Trump loves to make claims about his actions and trashtalk get results. He's a negotiator. Watch him negotiate.
But nothing like that happened! Trump talked himself right into a lonely little corner, and at the end of the day he walked out of a meeting where nothing much changed, but he declared victory because that is what he always does, and he said that things were going to change at NATO. But in fact Trump got nothing. Nobody, as far as I can tell, is going to do anything different from what was already agreed. We paid the aforementioned cost, in terms of bruised relations, and got nothing -- no discrete new NATO funding.
You don't get it Chuck. This is the set up to us leaving NATO and removing our troops from Germany.
That is the end game.
The Euroweeines will not meet their commitments. They never do. Trump has laid it out for all to see not in some secret meeting. It is clear that they have to spend on defense.
Europe has no value to us. Especially the Germans. They have always been our enemies. Through two world wars and through the peace. Some morons keep telling me that we need these allies if the balloon goes up. What? We are going to need German planes that can't fly or subs that can't sail? We need a division of recruits without officers holding broomsticks?
Our future is with new Europe if we want to be involved at all in that mess.
My name goes here. said...
Chuck says:
"But of course, Althouse, the objective truth that you seem to ignore is exactly what that reporter suggested. Trump will say one thing in a meeting, and then turn around and describe that meeting in a completely different way, or he will reverse himself or, when he is called out on what was actually agreed or not agreed, attack his meeting partners. We have seen it repeatedly."
I am not saying you are wrong, but can you provide an example?
How about three examples off the top of my head?
1. "Shithole countries." We can't even get a straight story on what was said. A meeting with the President, and a cabinet member, and a large handful of U.S. Senators. And we can't even get it clear from Trump what he said; Trump attacks everybody (like he did with Senator Blumenthal and his meeting with Judge Gorsuch).
2. The G7 meeting in Canada, where Trump walks in late, meets with the other leaders with the specter of a tariff/trade war hanging over the host Prime Minister, then Trump leaves early, and calls the meeting "a 10 out of 10." Then Trudeau says that Canada is going to respond in kind (not surprisingly) to the U.S. tariffs, and Trump goes ballistic, saying that Trudeau hadn't been a good participant in the meeting that he had just called "a 10."
3. The Singapore meeting with North Korea. Trump walks out of that meeting claiming that we now have a "very, very comprehensive agreement" with North Korea for their denuclearization (it isn't) and then Trump claimed that he got further additional agreements from them after the document was signed. (Which seems like bullshit, and which has never been verified.)
There are many more. There might be a dozen examples of Trump's doing this, just on the various health care reform bill meetings.
For example, what if Russia decided to claim and occupy a chunk of say, Finland and the Finns called on Nato to respond?
Finland is not a member of NATO (neither are Sweden or Austria). And contrary to what Trump says (even with the new pipeline) Russian gas is about 10% of Germany's energy mix.
I bet they do.
Put your money where your mouth is.
So what is the bet? That all NATO members will be spending 2% of GDP on defense by 2024? That was the existing commitment. Pick a year and month prior to 2024 when all NATO members will be spending 2% of their GDP on defense (presumably because Trump kicked ass and took names), and I will take that bet.
NATO is on notice. As is the EU. The God Emperor wants to bust out of all of these international agreements where the US are the schmucks who pay while the rest get to play.
If NATO deadbeats like Germany do not make a good faith effort than the US should withdraw from NATO and make specific agreements with specific countries if we feel it is in our interest. We need to remove our troops from Germany forthwith. The God Emperor will be more than willing to do it.
We need to get out of NAFTA, NATO and the WTO. Now. The God Emperor is setting the stage for that to happen.
The proof is in the pudding. If Germany can avoid meeting the threshold that the God Emperor demands than we will see what he will do. I bet on breaking up NATO. The stage has been set. Transparently so it should not be a surprise.
The EU is next in our cross hairs.
NATO serves no purpose. Without America the Russians can go through their armies like shit through a goose. They have to pay. They have to pay now not in 2024. We are not going to take their lies and their bullshit anymore.
Merkel and May will both be out of office by the end of the month. If they are replaced by liberal nutjobs like Labor in England than it will that much easier to abandon them to stew in their own juices. If they are replaced by nationalist than we might be able to cut a deal.
Either way the game has changed.
Without America the Russians can go through their armies like shit through a goose.
And this would benefit the U.S. exactly how? Other than giving you the pleasure of being able to say "suck on that Europussies"?
As is the EU.
What is the EU on notice for. We don't have a trade agreement with the EU (the election of Trump ensured the proposed agreement was dead). How have they offended us other than our love of German cars.
What are the chances that the entire EU/China/Canada simply out-wait 8 years of Trump, get Kamala Harris in as POTUS and go back to the good old Obama days?
and they can't understand Donald Trump?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
The alliance is damaged
"We are shackled to a corpse".
The more likely Russian aggression objective (and its not really clear what that is), is not Finland, or Sweden, but Estonia, Latvia and maybe Lithuania.
Russia is not equipped for grand strategic moves. There are no massive tank armies ready to roll hundreds of miles into Western Europe. Putin is a salami-slicer working with a military that is scaled only for very limited wars.
The Russian tactic is of deniable "green men" to create unrest and disruption, especially through exploiting or leveraging ethnic Russians in the target region. These will be backed by heavier forces that will intervene to crack stubborn resistance or counterattack an intervention force. Estonia and Latvia are in this situation, and they are Nato members. If these little countries can be sliced away, or if parts of them are, and this stands, Nato is likely to fall apart much as the League of Nations did. The temptation for Russia will be that with a low-cost symbolic effort it can create great openings for organizing a different economic/political alliance system.
Poland, also Nato, is planning to come to the aid of the Baltics with its largish but underequipped military. This may or may not suffice, but I expect the Poles will do their courageous best. But behind Poland is Germany, the real core of the alliance, which is certainly not making any attempt to show that it will back up the Poles.
Interestingly it seems that Sweden has plans to intervene in Estonia/Latvia itself, and is actively trying to revive its conscript military. And perhaps also Finland. Sweden and Finland depend on a western or neutral Baltic, and a Russian Navy and Air Force with Baltic bases would be a considerable threat.
buwaya
Sweden and Finnland signed an aid agreement with Norway and Denmark. I think Iceland is in there too. This is outside NATO.There are less formal understandings with Poland and the Baltic states. My guess is that if Russia does try anything it will be to try and pry scandanavia from the rest of europe. And that would mean a run at the baltic states. Keep an eye on "ethnic russians" causing dissenttion in Latvia,Lithuania and estonia.
Gahrie said...
Keep searching for those strawberries Chuckles.....meanwhile the rest of us have a war to win.
7/13/18, 8:45 AM
Chuck is the mirror image of Reagan's story about the pony and Christmas. If President Trump gave Chuck a pony for Christmas he would spend all his time with arm up the pony's ass searching for shit.
Buwaya,
How do we get the Russians out of Kaliningrad? WTH are they doing there? All these ethnic Russian enclaves are just excuses for Russia to interfere with, intervene in and invade anytime they get the itch. Russia and the world would be much better and safer if all ethnic Russians were to move, or be moved, oh gently of course, to contiguous Russian territory.
Freder Frederson said...
Without America the Russians can go through their armies like shit through a goose.
And this would benefit the U.S. exactly how? Other than giving you the pleasure of being able to say "suck on that Europussies"?
7/13/18, 6:00 PM
What harm would it do? Show your work. It was folks like you in 1990-91 saying So what if Saddam has Kuwait, so what if he takes KSA, he'll still have to sell us the oil to get money.
So, so what if Russia takes Europe? They'll still have to sell us Maybachs and Camembert.
You don't think they'd really genocide them, do you? Might clean up on the Muslims, Alexa play Despacito. But life would go on. You think they're going to wipe out everybody in France and send a bunch of Ossetians to run the vineyards? You think they could? I'm just trying to imagine the logistics train for Russia to maintain an occupation of Continental Western Europe, granting that they could get all the way to Bordeaux or Lisbon, which probably they could, because why fight, say the sophisticates in charge?
Just give Poland, and any Mitteleuropans with guts remaining, a nice set of Pershing IVs, and tell Russia to go around them. Hell, give 'em a corridor to run through.
And for that matter, if PDJT wants to hang Merkel with the guts of Gerhard Schroeder, and install a pro-Ami yes-man if such a thing exists in Germany, who would do the stopping of it? Germany? They would need to draft witches because all they have is broomsticks. France? Die laughing.
Get this through your head Europe, this is No More Mr Nice Guy time. You can do what PDJT says, or you can obey some monoglot Siberian corporal with the tip of his bayonet up your nose.
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