Althouse: "A white paper cover now covers the sculpture of Christopher Columbus and the block it stands on, and the entire display is now surrounded by a chain-link fence."

९ ऑक्टोबर, २०१७

"A white paper cover now covers the sculpture of Christopher Columbus and the block it stands on, and the entire display is now surrounded by a chain-link fence."

In L.A.'s Grand Park today — ~~Columbus Day~~ Indigenous Peoples Day.

१५७ टिप्पण्या:

mccullough म्हणाले...: Why no human sacrifices on Indigenous People's Day? Do the vegans look down on the cannibals or do they give them dispensation to eat human meat today?; ९/१०/१७, ११:०६ AM
gspencer म्हणाले...: "Hey, lets pretend out history, any history, didn't happen!"; ९/१०/१७, ११:०७ AM
n.n म्हणाले...: Which round of "indigenous" people?; ९/१०/१७, ११:०८ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: 1984 as an instruction manual is upon us. That Italian Admiral in now the enemy. And the Aztecs are back into human mass sacrifices to protect their drug trade from Gringos.; ९/१०/१७, ११:१० AM
rcocean म्हणाले...: Wow, I thought California was going to benefit from all the immigration. Hugh Hewitt and all the Moderate Republicans were telling us in the 1990s that "Immigrants" were "natural conservatives".

Guess they were wrong. Oh well.

Anyway, time for another Amnesty, it'll work *this time*.; ९/१०/१७, ११:११ AM
madAsHell म्हणाले...: Critical History Theory - It never happened unless I say it did.; ९/१०/१७, ११:११ AM
wendybar म्हणाले...: And liberals wonder why America is hating them more and more everyday??; ९/१०/१७, ११:१२ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: They can cover it with paper. But the germs surrounding it will still escape and infect the indigenous, killing them.; ९/१०/१७, ११:१३ AM
rcocean म्हणाले...: "And the Aztecs are back into human mass sacrifices to protect their drug trade from Gringos"

When Gibson made his movie about Pre-1492 Central America, liberals were OUTRAGED that he showed the Aztecs/Mayans doing human sacrifices. It was "racism"! Y'see The Aztecs/Mayans only *occasionally* did human sacrifices. And who were to judge?; ९/१०/१७, ११:१४ AM
Pettifogger म्हणाले...: Indigenous People's Day? Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it Siberian-American People's Day?; ९/१०/१७, ११:१५ AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants म्हणाले...: I'm sure that America's indigenous peoples are going without anything brought to them by European ingenuity today.; ९/१०/१७, ११:१५ AM
robother म्हणाले...: Or, "Indignant People's Day."; ९/१०/१७, ११:१९ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: Speaking of The Admiral, he does remind me of Trump. Leading a populous sailor adventures movement that got the nomination of Spanish Monarchy to find a new western Trade Route to India, and then he wrecked every establishment everywhere with his Colombian Exchange.

.And he lied to his sailors to get their support for another 2 weeks heading into the abyss. Then he figured out the Easterly Trade winds ran back to Spain from the Georgia coast.

And then the Catholic Establishment in Madrid and Rome betrayed him to steal his small share of the wealth that he alone had earned .; ९/१०/१७, ११:१९ AM
jaydub म्हणाले...: We celebrated Columbus Day by stopping by the Seville cathedral to pay our respects to Christobal Colon's remains which are proudly interred there and which are a major attraction for the cathedral. Those who want to celebrate Idigenous People's Day normally do so by going to the Archivo de Indias which is conviently located just next door and which contains many politically incorrect, but historically accurate accounts, maps and artifacts from the Americas.; ९/१०/१७, ११:२३ AM
Sprezzatura म्हणाले...: "I'm sure that America's indigenous peoples are going without anything brought to them by European ingenuity today."

I wonder what the corollary would be in today's terms. Presumably the DJT fans in the flyover states w/ stars and bars on their trucks would be the indigenous folks who are surrounded by stuff that is provided to them by the equiv of the European ingenuity folks re the past analog, today those are the costal elites.

Maybe the unsuccessful (v costal high flyers) middle state DJTers should go back to basics. Presumably that would prove something. Though not what they'd intend.; ९/१०/१७, ११:२७ AM
Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...: If we're gonna celebrate "Indigenous People's Day," I demand to celebrate "Eskimo Day" in Alaska.; ९/१०/१७, ११:२७ AM
Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...: Columbus casting couch.; ९/१०/१७, ११:२९ AM
Fernandinande म्हणाले...: MadisonMan said...
They can cover it with paper. But the germs surrounding it will still escape and infect the indigenous, killing them.

Which reminds me, Amerindians are the least genetically diverse brand of human, and it was partly the cause of what you mention.; ९/१०/१७, ११:३२ AM
cronus titan म्हणाले...: When someone says they want to kill you, you should believe them -- Elie Weisel

Protesting Columbus is identity politics at its finest. There is an increasing volume of rhetoric about the world being a better place if white people did not exist. White people are bad, everyone else good. It's that simple. It's also dangerous -- history teaches that it never ends well. Weisel warned us.; ९/१०/१७, ११:३२ AM
Expat(ish) म्हणाले...: Seriously, *white* paper is what they came up with?

_XC; ९/१०/१७, ११:३३ AM
Vance म्हणाले...: I think the Aztecs may well be in first place in the "most evil human civilizations ever" list. Their bloodlust and capability of murder was staggering. Only Stalin and Mao could perhaps match them.

But the Aztecs were today's progressive ideal society--they sacrificed children to Tlaloc; they concentrated all power in their religious state (just like Islam) and they placated the masses with sports (naturally, a lethal version of soccer and basketball, it appears). High taxes, kings.... what's not to like for people like ARM? They certainly tried to murder Christians........ Good thing it was Cortez instead of "Catholics" like Nancy Pelosi.

No, that was a clear case where militant Christianity was very definitely good for the world. The Aztec civilization and culture needed to be exterminated. Image if they had gotten gunpowder technology and then cross-ocean sailing tech first.

So praise for Columbus and Cortez!

--Vance; ९/१०/१७, ११:३४ AM
rcocean म्हणाले...: "Indigenous People's Day? Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it Siberian-American People's Day?"

Most Mexicans are completely or partly of Spanish origin. They're not Indigenous peoples.

And if you're all upset that Columbus came here - give the deed to your house to the nearest Indian and go back to Europe. Otherwise, you're just a fucking hypocrite.; ९/१०/१७, ११:३६ AM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil म्हणाले...: And there were those here who thought this foolishness would stop with Confederate statues.

California will do what California does, which is cave in to PC stupidity. But I doubt they will be renaming Columbus Ohio any time soon.

I'm more interested in why the Golden State made knowingly infecting someone with HIV a misdemeanor rather than a felony. Doesn't that hurt gay people more than anybody else?; ९/१०/१७, ११:३६ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: What Vance said. The Italian Admiral was a sailor. Cortez and Pizzaro were brave and crafty soldiers who recruited help from among the tribes being used by the Azteca and Incas for sacrifices.; ९/१०/१७, ११:४२ AM
Rob म्हणाले...: Goodbye Columbus; ९/१०/१७, ११:४३ AM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: Will there be any truth-telling on Indigenous Peoples Day? Will the masses learn why the Wampanoags greeted the Pilgrims in friendship?; ९/१०/१७, ११:५१ AM
reader म्हणाले...: This reminds me of Flip Wilson. I loved Geraldine when I was little.

Christopher Columbus; ९/१०/१७, ११:५५ AM
Hagar म्हणाले...: "A klug zu Columbus'n!"; ९/१०/१७, १२:०१ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: Why I left California.

Columbus was a great sailor and navigator.

He and his brother were map makers before his voyage.; ९/१०/१७, १२:०५ PM
Che Dolf म्हणाले...: I'm against Columbus Day because it was propaganda to normalize Italians.; ९/१०/१७, १२:०८ PM
rcocean म्हणाले...: "I'm more interested in why the Golden State made knowingly infecting someone with HIV a misdemeanor rather than a felony. Doesn't that hurt gay people more than anybody else?"

It also applies to giving blood while having HIV. Which affects EVERYONE.; ९/१०/१७, १२:११ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Will the masses learn why the Wampanoags greeted the Pilgrims in friendship?

They were getting their butts kicked by the other tribes that were attacking them.

I hope the reality of Indian tribes attacking other indian tribes long before the Europeans came is not too upsetting to our resident leftists and "lifelong republicans".; ९/१०/१७, १२:१३ PM
Birkel म्हणाले...: anti-de Sitter space:

So now that you have spat the bile onto the interwebs, I hope you feel better. I'll rank your bigotry Titus-equivalent and wish you well.

Make sure not to eat any food this week that is grown in areas populated by those nasty flyover people. That'll show 'em. But not in the way you think.; ९/१०/१७, १२:१३ PM
Achilles म्हणाले...: My college is having a "day-off" today. It is a mostly online class so all of the classwork is still posted, but the professors just aren't lecturing.

Oh yeah it is "indigenous peoples" day.

I didn't know there was a "holiday" today.; ९/१०/१७, १२:१६ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "I think the Aztecs may well be in first place in the "most evil human civilizations ever" list."

I don't know. There were many other Mesoamerican civilizations before them, and these have many links with the Aztecs, and acknowledged by them as a cultural influence. The Toltecs for instance, which built immensely larger pyramids.

https://anthropology.net/2007/06/13/the-toltec-and-new-evidence-of-the-mass-sacrifice-of-children/

And also conducted human sacrifices. There are huge blank spots in our knowledge of Mesoamerican history. There could easily have been much worse than the Aztecs. The Toltecs perhaps, as they seem to have been able to command more labor. And the mystery of the Maya collapse and indications that this may have been a bloody business.

The traditional most evil civilization in Western history was certainly the Carthaginians, with their child-and-infant sacrifice. And their parent cultures, the Phoenicians, the devotees of Moloch.; ९/१०/१७, १२:१६ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: Indigenous People's Day: celebrating all of the slaughter, slavery, genocide, cannibalism, and epidemics that happened before Christopher Columbus got here?; ९/१०/१७, १२:१६ PM
rehajm म्हणाले...: Bougza Bonny? Whozah discover Amerikah?; ९/१०/१७, १२:१८ PM
Curious George म्हणाले...: Will they celebrate it by dealing blackjack, like their fathers, and grandfathers, and great grandfathers, and great great grandfathers before them?; ९/१०/१७, १२:१८ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: When Gibson made his movie about Pre-1492 Central America, liberals were OUTRAGED that he showed the Aztecs/Mayans doing human sacrifices. It was "racism"! Y'see The Aztecs/Mayans only *occasionally* did human sacrifices. And who were to judge?

That was a hard movie to watch, but I'm glad I did. That last scene on the beach is magnificent.; ९/१०/१७, १२:१९ PM
Scott M म्हणाले...: Image if they had gotten gunpowder technology and then cross-ocean sailing tech first.

Stephen Baxter's "Ultima" does a pretty good job of this, showing us a world where the Incas did just that.; ९/१०/१७, १२:२३ PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves म्हणाले...: I say we erase our history and replace it with a hillarywood movie.; ९/१०/१७, १२:२७ PM
Fernandinande म्हणाले...: In celebration of Indigenous Peoples Day, Pow Wow The Indian Boy, by Hot Rize, and Ask You Mom For 50 Cents, by the Black Lodge Singers, but not in a "Twin Peaks" kinda way.

The original Pow Wow with lyrics. Great song!; ९/१०/१७, १२:३१ PM
Sebastian म्हणाले...: On Indigenous Peoples Day, do we get to kick out all the descendants of the Hispanic invaders who started it all?; ९/१०/१७, १२:३१ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: As for Columbus, it is silly to berate the man.
And dumber to ignore him.

The truth is that we are all of us, all the billions of us, descendants of European expatriates, residents of former European colonies, or at least profoundly influenced by European culture, we are all children of Columbus. He was the leading edge of the European breakout into the entire globe, and what he did cannot be undone.

In this he was mostly symbolic, and it is that symbol these people hate, of Europe, collectively, all the disparate yet highly connected nations of that small patch of Eurasia, conquering the Earth and forming so much of it in their image.

Even the activists who despise him so are his children. Their very complaint is the sort of thing only the children of Columbus can make.; ९/१०/१७, १२:३५ PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: Seneca, Cherokee, Warrior, Tomahawk, Seminole, Archer, Arrow, Saratoga, Navajo, Mojave, Cheyenne, Apache, Dakota.

Piper aircraft.; ९/१०/१७, १२:३६ PM
Fernandinande म्हणाले...: In solidarity with Indigenous Peoples and Their Day, I will continue to not visit Ohio, especially today.; ९/१०/१७, १२:३८ PM
Todd म्हणाले...: A white paper cover now covers the sculpture of Christopher Columbus and the block it stands on, and the entire display is now surrounded by a chain-link fence.

So which is it, is this racist or cultural appropriation?; ९/१०/१७, १२:४१ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: Why honor any historical figures? You want to say Christopher Columbus was no worse than many other figures we honor? Or that all peoples have their histories of savagery and bloodshed? Ok...true enough! So...take down the statues and other memorials to all other figures who were slavers and murderers. That others were murderous thieves doesn't mean we should still honor Columbus or ignore that he was a murdering thief.

There are great men and women who accomplish much for humanity, and many of these great men and women have their faults, sometimes terrible faults. Even as we may honor great men and women for their achievements, we must always remember their great failings, where they exist. It does no good to us to erase away that which is objectionable merely to cheer that which was admirable. This falsifies history, makes a lie of reality, turns gangsters into heroes.

As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him? Others would have found this continent eventually, (others had, previously). Columbus saw the entire expedition as an opportunity to grab land and riches for himself. There's nothing to honor in that.; ९/१०/१७, १२:४८ PM
The Godfather म्हणाले...: In one sense most of us are "native" or "indigenous" Americans, because we were born here. But if you mean those words to refer to one's ancestors, then no one is "native" or "indigenous" to America, because everyone's ancestors immigrated here from somewhere else. It has to be that way, because the human race evolved from pre-human forebearers in Africa, and then immigrated to the rest of the world, eventually including the Americas. The so-called "indigenous" or "native" Americans can only claim that their ancestors were the first human immigrants to America, arriving from the now-submerged subcontinent of Beringia more than 10,000 years ago. And they, and all of us, can call ourselves African-Americans.

Now can't we all just get along together?; ९/१०/१७, १२:४९ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Well, Columbus came as a member of the Renaissance expecting to see the odd cathedral or palaces filled with art or libraries with copies of manuscripts beautifully copied. But no. No churches. No art. No libraries. No palaces. Only naked but peaceful Arawaks and the cannibal Caribs. A disappointment I'm sure.
So today we celebrate the nasty violent Caribs who had no cathedrals, no murals, no paintings, no libraries, no ships to carry them across the ocean to spread their own shit culture.; ९/१०/१७, १२:५२ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Robert Cook
"As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him? Others would have found this continent eventually,"
Ah, just as someone would have sculpted David or painted clouds like Constable or written Hamlet or composed the Goldberg Variations. No reason to pick this man or that woman for honor when someone surely would have done the same or better, probably better, had they never been born. Jeez.; ९/१०/१७, १२:५६ PM
James K म्हणाले...: Even as we may honor great men and women for their achievements, we must always remember their great failings, where they exist.

Perhaps, but what is being done here is to ignore the great achievements and focus only on the failings. And of course the "failings" are often subjective and judged by today's standards.; ९/१०/१७, १२:५७ PM
gadfly म्हणाले...: @Todd said...
"A white paper cover now covers the sculpture of Christopher Columbus and the block it stands on, and the entire display is now surrounded by a chain-link fence.

So which is it, is this racist or cultural appropriation?"

According to Wikipedia:

A white paper is an authoritative report or guide that informs ... concisely about a complex issue and presents the issuing body's philosophy on the matter. It is meant to help ... understand an issue, solve a problem, or make a decision.

So I guess the answer to the question is the same in any way you want to define "white paper" - it is "both" - because you can't have one without the other.; ९/१०/१७, १२:५८ PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: ...falsifies history, makes a lie of reality, turns gangsters into heroes.

Sounds like a PR proposal to the NFL Owners Association.; ९/१०/१७, १:०२ PM
bgates म्हणाले...: Even as we may honor great men and women for their achievements

Name ten.; ९/१०/१७, १:०२ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: Pedantic historical notes -

Pizarro was (probably, there seems to be very little material from that period of his life) a professional soldier who served in the Italian wars, but he was one of the relatively few among the conquistadors - another was Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca.

Cortez was not a soldier at all. He was at least partly trained as a lawyer, practiced as a notary and mainly served as an administrator. He never served in a formal military capacity. He led expeditions of conquest pre-Mexico, but this was not formal warfare.

Few of Cortez' men were trained soldiers either, most were adventurers like him , sailors being probably the largest single professional category. And by European military standards they were very poorly armed.

The sort of fighting Cortez' men did in Mexico was not done as per standard European tactics. The expedition figured out the best ways to fight the natives, a system of tactics that was sui generis.

Both Cortez and Pizarro were sons of soldiers, if that counts.; ९/१०/१७, १:०२ PM
HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...: Robert Cook said...Others would have found this continent eventually, (others had, previously).

Wiki: Egg Of Columbus; ९/१०/१७, १:०५ PM
Fernandinande म्हणाले...: rhhardin said...
Seneca, Cherokee, Warrior, Tomahawk, Seminole, Archer, Arrow, Saratoga, Navajo, Mojave, Cheyenne, Apache, Dakota.
Piper aircraft.

You missed a few - Arapaho, Aztec, Comanche, Pawnee and Warrior, Papoose and Chieftain.; ९/१०/१७, १:०८ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: Actually, the comforts of modern science, technology, engineering, and farming, were first conceived and developed in what may be characterized as flyover country (e.g. the ubiquitous "garage"), which was assimilated and exploited by the cosmopolitan elites.; ९/१०/१७, १:०९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: exiledonmainstreet said...
And there were those here who thought this foolishness would stop with Confederate statues.

California will do what California does, which is cave in to PC stupidity. But I doubt they will be renaming Columbus Ohio any time soon.

I'm waiting for the Left Coasters (I used to be one) to take down all the statues to Junipero Serra and blow up the Missions...; ९/१०/१७, १:११ PM
RMc म्हणाले...: I don't have a big problem with "Indigenous (Indignant?) People's Day"...it's the un-personing of Christopher Columbus I don't like.

I agree with Steve Martin: "I believe all foreigners should be allowed into this country, provided they can speak our native language...Apache."; ९/१०/१७, १:१४ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: "The sort of fighting Cortez' men did in Mexico was not done as per standard European tactics."

They also enlisted Indian enemies of the Aztecs. Plus the horses frightened the Indians.; ९/१०/१७, १:२० PM
James Pawlak म्हणाले...: Those who wish to reinstate the Pre-Columbian, indigenous culture in the USA, should re-energize the religion of the Aztecs, provision of on-campuses altars (With the usual blood channels) and obsidian knives. (“Diversity Officers” and others of that ilk, should be the first persons sent to “speak to the gods”); The skinning-alive of virgins will be a problem as they are now “an endangered species”.); ९/१०/१७, १:२० PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: That others were murderous thieves doesn't mean we should still honor Columbus or ignore that he was a murdering thief.

You might be dangerous if you had ever read a book. At least one not written by Marx or Lenin.; ९/१०/१७, १:२१ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: And every Columbus day, I play this little ditty - Las Tres Carabelas (The Three Caravels)

Written in 1956 by Augusto Alguero based I believe on a traditional Cuban guajira.
Alguero was at one time the king of Spanish pop music, this is a very early work, but perhaps the one thing he did that was most extensively covered around the world. There are versions from Brazil (Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso), Mexico (Los Panchos), the US (The Shadows), etc.

This version by Imperio Argentina, an Argentine (Imperio Argentina was her stage name) who made her career, most of it, in Spain as a great lady of the popular cuple style, though she never had the Andalusian patois, she had a 'transatlantic' sound. She also of course did tangos, etc., some with the great Carlos Gardel. This is a very late piece for her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACNiluv0JS8

Viva el audaz navegante,
que viva la patria mía.
¡Vivan las tres carabelas
La Pinta, La Niña, y la Santa Maria!; ९/१०/१७, १:२४ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: It's not only the Aztecs that practiced elective abortion. It was also tribes north of the Rio Grande who practiced elective abortion (e.g. human sacrifice), but also slavery, diversity, and redistributive change. Placing the tribes in one basket "indian", obfuscates the conflicts that existed, and why indigenous people sought alliance with new and returning people from Europe.; ९/१०/१७, १:२५ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: There are huge blank spots in our knowledge of Mesoamerican history. There could easily have been much worse than the Aztecs.

There is archaeological evidence of intra-tribal genocidal activity among the Anasazi. Not unlike the conflicts in Africa that led to native black apartheid and later native white apartheid regimes.; ९/१०/१७, १:२८ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: There are none so blind, and perhaps evil, who exploit [class] diversity (e.g. race, sex) for political, social, and fiscal progress.; ९/१०/१७, १:३० PM
Big Mike म्हणाले...: You mean the Italian-American population isn't going to make de Blasio an "offer he can't refuse."; ९/१०/१७, १:३२ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: with their child-and-infant sacrifice

Abortion rites. How very Pro-Choice.; ९/१०/१७, १:३३ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him?

Similarly, why is the Nobel Prize in Medicine, or Physics, typically given to the person who first makes the discovery?; ९/१०/१७, १:३८ PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: There are huge blank spots in our knowledge of Mesoamerican history. There could easily have been much worse than the Aztecs.

It's not just the hidden history of the cultures of Central America, there were at least six mounding-building cultures that arose, flourished, and vanished with nary a trace before Columbus. What happened to them? It's difficult not to conclude that the tribes whose names we know are themselves, thieves and genocidal murderers. On Indigenous Peoples Day let's remember the brilliant Cahokia, brutally exterminated by the savage Chickamauga.; ९/१०/१७, १:४० PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him?

And how come patents are typically granted to people who first create something?; ९/१०/१७, १:४१ PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil म्हणाले...: "There is archaeological evidence of intra-tribal genocidal activity among the Anasazi"

Yep, and that is a big reason why archaeology has fallen into academic disrepute, as Camille Paglia once noted. The notion that those digs are disrespectful to Indian religious beliefs is just a cover. The real reason is that the digs might turn up evidence that the native tribes were not peaceful innocents living simply and in communion with nature. Or rather, one can say they were living fully in communion with nature - which is why tribal life was so brutal.; ९/१०/१७, १:४१ PM
vanderleun म्हणाले...: "Remember—the mighty indigenous peoples of the Americas couldn’t even figure out the wheel. The WHEEL. The average lifespan for Native Americans before Columbus committed “genocide” against them was around 35. It is now more than double that. When Columbus arrived in the New World, the total number of indigenous Injuns in what is now North America was less than two million. There currently are 5.2 million self-identified “Native Americans” in the USA alone and another two million or so in Canada. So they’re living more than twice as long and there are more than twice as many of them. That doesn’t sound like genocide to me. That sounds like an upgrade into the first-class section. "

http://takimag.com/article/the_new_worlds_oldest_villain_jim_goad/print#axzz4v2MK80P9; ९/१०/१७, १:४७ PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil म्हणाले...: I'm waiting for the Left Coasters (I used to be one) to take down all the statues to Junipero Serra and blow up the Missions...

10/9/17, 1:11 PM

California is so gorgeous. It sickens me to think of what has become of it. I feel terrible for the sensible people who still live there. I have a friend in La Jolla who would like to go, but her husband, a native Californian and an only child, feels obligated to look after his parents, who live in Orange County and are ailing. He doesn't want to leave them alone.; ९/१०/१७, १:४७ PM
Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...: @Exile,

La Jolla is beautiful -- that's one of the best in California.; ९/१०/१७, १:४९ PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: Similarly, why is the Nobel Prize in Medicine, or Physics, typically given to the person who first makes the discovery?

...and publishes. Obviously, Columbus wasn't the first. But he documented his voyage and discoveries with sufficient accuracy that other Europeans easily followed his course. The expeditions of Leif Eriksson and Bjarni Herjólfsson would have remained unknown to this day if it were not for the skalds whose lays Snorri Sturluson so carefully transcribed.; ९/१०/१७, १:४९ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: The astonishingly poorly read Robert Cook: "Columbus saw the entire expedition as an opportunity to grab land and riches for himself."

Or perhaps he was attempting to find new trade routes to Asia in order to avoid the murderous muslim fleets of the middle east.

Oh, uh, now I see what Robert Cooks problem with Columbus really is.

The future must not belong to those who would slander the prophet of islam.; ९/१०/१७, १:५० PM
Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...: Washington, D.C.

Washington, District of Columbia

Washington (white slaveholder), District of Columbia (European conqueror of indigenous people).

The Left should be protesting "Washington, DC!"

Where were they during the 8 years of Obama?; ९/१०/१७, १:५१ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: "...and publishes."

Indeed.

Witness Leibniz and Newton.; ९/१०/१७, १:५१ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "California is so gorgeous. It sickens me to think of what has become of it. "

Its still beautiful, its still here, even the man-made bits.
Its just a little harder for normal people to live here.; ९/१०/१७, १:५३ PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil म्हणाले...: Bay Area Guy: Not to mention Washington State.

We could avoid all this trouble with place names if we just named everything after Obama.; ९/१०/१७, २:०० PM
gadfly म्हणाले...: @rhhardin said...
Seneca, Cherokee, Warrior, Tomahawk, Seminole, Archer, Arrow, Saratoga, Navajo, Mojave, Cheyenne, Apache, Dakota.

Piper aircraft.

Piper mixes and matches. The Great Sioux Nation is 13 bands, normally separated by dialectical means into the Dakota, Lakota and Nakota tribes. Interestingly, the western-most group, the Lakota (or Teton Sioux) make up the largest population.

The Devils Lake (now Spirit Lake) Reservation is made up of Dakota bands (Mdeakantonwon, Wahpeton, Wahpekute, and Sisseton) who supported the use of "The Fighting Sioux" as the University of North Dakota's mascot and team name - but the Standing Rock reservation in North Dakota, made up of Lakota and Nakota members voted it down as did a NorDak reservation that was not Sioux at all. So a great nickname went down the tubes to be replaced by the "Fighting Hawks!" When was the last time you saw hawks fighting? They run from tiny birds protecting their babies.; ९/१०/१७, २:०० PM
James K म्हणाले...: Others would have found this continent eventually

Try the thought experiment of delaying the discovery (and subsequent further exploration and settlement) of the Americas by 30 or 40 years. Who knows whether we would have had the English coming when they did, and ultimately the founding fathers or anything like the country we had by 1800. Or 1900.; ९/१०/१७, २:०१ PM
Bay Area Guy म्हणाले...: What Buwaya said.

Geographically, California is still beautiful.

Geographically, San Francisco has to be one of the prettiest cities on Planet Earth -- the hills, the Cable Cars, the waterfront, the bay, Alcatraz, the Marina, North Beach, Nob Hill, Golden Gate Bridge, the Presidio, etc, etc.

It's the people that are all wacked out.; ९/१०/१७, २:१६ PM
wholelottasplainin म्हणाले...: Indigenous Murderous Cannibal Nomadic Slash-and-Burn Stone Age People's Day.

Lots to celebrate!

Snort!; ९/१०/१७, २:१८ PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...: What did the Indigenies ever do that was noteworthy besides get discovered by Columbus?; ९/१०/१७, २:३६ PM
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil म्हणाले...: "Geographically, San Francisco has to be one of the prettiest cities on Planet Earth -- the hills, the Cable Cars, the waterfront, the bay, Alcatraz, the Marina, North Beach, Nob Hill, Golden Gate Bridge, the Presidio, etc, etc."

No argument there, although I last visited the place in the '90's.

It's beautiful, but I have no desire to revisit it.; ९/१०/१७, २:३८ PM
James K म्हणाले...: I'm guessing that half the people going after Columbus think that Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are 'indigenous.'; ९/१०/१७, २:३९ PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: Since the world is round, it's the rest of the world that's surrounded by the chain link fence.; ९/१०/१७, २:४६ PM
Tim म्हणाले...: Columbus sailed to the west looking for the West Indigenies. Instead he washed up on the shores of the East Indigenies and found Syphilis.
Not sure who got the better of that deal.; ९/१०/१७, २:५४ PM
Oso Negro म्हणाले...: Fuck the native Americans! Next time let's kill them all!; ९/१०/१७, २:५९ PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: History mnemonic

In the year fourteen hundred and ninety three, Columbus sailed the dark green sea.; ९/१०/१७, २:५९ PM
urbane legend म्हणाले...: I thought we celebrated Columbus Day because he brought Renaissance art to Georgia.; ९/१०/१७, ३:०८ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Robert Cook: That others were murderous thieves doesn't mean we should still honor Columbus or ignore that he was a murdering thief.

Who's this "we" you keep evoking? It's interesting, how often "we" keeps getting evoked in this statue stuff. The "we" I belong to will continue honoring Columbus. Not a damned thing you can do about it. You and your "we" can honor whatever the hell you wanna honor. No one's stopping you. (We won't vandalize your statues if you leave ours alone, OK?)

It does no good to us to erase away that which is objectionable merely to cheer that which was admirable.

If it were erased away, we wouldn't know about it.

This is one of those most tiresome of leftist straw men, that this is "suppressed", "censored" knowledge, and we're all propagandized zombies. They're prophets in the wilderness, prophets without honor, the only ones who know (what can be found in textbooks and on library shelves everywhere).

How come I already knew all the shit you're banging on about before I got into high school? And I went to school in the Dark Ages, without the blessing of Howard fucking Zinn to teach me the truth, man.

What you're really pissed about the apparent lack of complete success in shoving *your* preferred propaganda down everybody's throats. The only people who've been trying to really memory-hole history are the "we" you belong to, toots.

As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him? Others would have found this continent eventually...

Yes, other intrepid, great men would have, who would be honored by other people, the people who came after them. And also, no doubt, excoriated by the sniveling little toads who can't acknowledge the great for who they are, but who are here anyway, benefiting from the conquest, gnawed away by resentment of...really, God knows what.

You're a receiver of stolen goods, holy man. A sanctimonious pharisee who traipses in after all the dirty work that you benefit from is done by others. Get off your high horse.; ९/१०/१७, ३:२९ PM
tcrosse म्हणाले...: No more of this:
Duke Ellington on Christopher Columbus; ९/१०/१७, ३:३२ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: "It's beautiful, but I have no desire to revisit it."

Good, it's full of smoke.; ९/१०/१७, ३:४७ PM
AllenS म्हणाले...: Indigenous Peoples Day? No wonder that I wanted to dance around a campfire all day.

Do Injuns ever wonder what life would be like if Mohammad discovered this new world? Somehow I don't think that there would have been any reservations with maybe a casino there.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५० PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: Obviously, Columbus wasn't the first. But he documented his voyage and discoveries with sufficient accuracy that other Europeans easily followed his course.

He almost certainly was the first. Leif Ericson and Eric the Red were probably landing on Greenland.

I know of no evidence that they landed in New England or Nova Scotia and most of those stories are myths.

Columbus was the man at the intersection of the ancient and modern. His life is an inspiration, and would be if the lefties knew any history besides Zinn.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५१ PM
Pinandpuller म्हणाले...: 'Member when AG Ashcroft covered the nekkid statue with a sheet?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५५ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "How come I already knew all the shit you're banging on about before I got into high school?"

Perhaps you were more inquisitive than many of your peers. Believe me, many people today still don't know much of the ugly truth about the founding of our country. That's excusable. One can't know what one hasn't been taught. What's not excusable is knowing about it and honoring murderers and slavers anyway. But, that's who you are, and I have no interest in obstructing your right to honor vile people and their vile acts. Have at it!; ९/१०/१७, ३:५५ PM
Pinandpuller म्हणाले...: Happy Indigent People's Day.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५६ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "'As for Columbus, what did he really do that warrants our honoring him? Others would have found this continent eventually,'
"Ah, just as someone would have sculpted David or painted clouds like Constable or written Hamlet or composed the Goldberg Variations."

Ah, no. You know better...I hope. You cannot compare the works of genius by individual persons with the accidental stumbling upon this continent by a ship captain who thought he was somewhere else.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५९ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: He wasn't even on this continent.; ९/१०/१७, ३:५९ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "What did the Indigenies ever do that was noteworthy besides get discovered by Columbus?"

That's a wide-open question, but I'm not advocating for an Indigenous People's Day.; ९/१०/१७, ४:०० PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...: "Ah, no. You know better...I hope. You cannot compare the works of genius by individual persons with the accidental stumbling upon this continent by a ship captain who thought he was somewhere else."

Ever schoolgirl knows the Americas lie between the Atlantic and the Pacific -- Columbus was such a dolt!; ९/१०/१७, ४:०६ PM
wholelottasplainin म्हणाले...: The claim that Columbus was "first" is contested by several other countries.

For example:

"THE HISTORIE OF CAMBRIA, NOW CALLED WALES: A PART OF THE MOST FAMOUS YLAND OF BRYTAINE, WRITTEN IN THE BRYTISH LANGUAGE ABOVE TWO HUNDRETH YEARES PAST: TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH BY H. LHOYD GENTLEMAN: CORRECTED, AUGMENTED, AND CONTINUED OUT OF RECORDS AND BEST APPROOVED AUTHORS, BY DAVID POWEL DOCTOR IN DIVINITIE." London. Imprinted by Rafe Newberie and Henry Denham, 1584.

Largely based on Caradog's chronicles of Welsh history and legends, this work is of special interest to the Americana collector, as it reports discoveries made by one Owen Gwyneth.

"Sailing west [....] he came to a land unknown, where he saw manie strange things [...] this land [...] must needs be some part of Nova Hispania or Florida. Whereupon it is manifest that that countrie was long before by Brytaines discovered, afore either Columbus or Americus Vesputius lead anie Spaniards thither."

The Chinese, the Irish, the Vikings, the Welsh....take yer pick.; ९/१०/१७, ४:०९ PM
SayAahh म्हणाले...: ILM; ९/१०/१७, ४:१३ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "You cannot compare the works of genius by individual persons with the accidental stumbling upon this continent by a ship captain who thought he was somewhere else."

That's not what he did. And he wasn't just a ship captain. He put years into coming up with an idea, which was non-trivial, of getting backing for it, which required enormous resource and persistence, and carrying it through, which required superlative skill. I would put him in the category of one of the great industrial entrepreneurs in terms of vision, initiative and ability.

He did not just head westwards. That simply would not have worked with the equipment he had. He had noticed the winds and currents in the direction of the Azores, and that these continued west. And that a more northerly course would take him back.

He took an enormous risk that riding these winds would take him somewhere within range of his provisions. It was truly a shot in the dark.

Like most industrial entrepreneurs he was an early visionary of alternative or developed uses of new technology. He perceived that the European sailing vessel design had become capable of long-range oceanic travel, not simply coastal, as the Portuguese were still doing R&D in this line.

Someone, most likely the Portuguese, would have done this at some point no doubt. But someone had to be first. The Europeans were ready to break out and conquer the world. It is this global conquest that the anti-Columbians are really about, its not the man.; ९/१०/१७, ४:१६ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "The Chinese, the Irish, the Vikings, the Welsh....take yer pick."

Or the Basques. The story is that they had found the Grand Banks of Newfoundland and its codfish, and were keeping this special fishing ground hush-hush decades before Columbus. But like everything else along these lines it is highly speculative.; ९/१०/१७, ४:२० PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: Not Azores, the Canaries.
The Azores were the touchstones of the return route.; ९/१०/१७, ४:२१ PM
ccscientist म्हणाले...: Every country on Earth was conquered by someone at some time. The aztecs were not such nice people and had an empire built on slavery and murder. Likewise the Incas. The only thing preventing tribes north of Mexico from doing the same was technology. Iraq has been part of dozens of empires--which one do you blame for what? Real history was one bloody conquest after another--shall we now pretend it was rainbows and kittens?
Oh, and the guy who pointed out in an academic journal that those places colonized (particularly by the Brits) currently are doing better than those never colonized has been getting threats and the journal unpublished his paper (since it was online only so far, and not in print).; ९/१०/१७, ४:२३ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: The Chinese, the Irish, the Vikings, the Welsh....take yer pick.

But oddly enough all these successful explorers left no trace.

That's not what he did. And he wasn't just a ship captain. He put years into coming up with an idea, which was non-trivial, of getting backing for it, which required enormous resource and persistence, and carrying it through, which required superlative skill. I would put him in the category of one of the great industrial entrepreneurs in terms of vision, initiative and ability.

Cook knows nothing of such things. Columbus was a map maker with his brother. He had sailed down the west coast of Africa and knew about currents. He did not know about the trade winds he used and was very lucky in his choice os season since he avoided the unknown hurricane season.

He was a great explorer and Magellan found the path to the Indies but at the cost of his life. Columbus was first and Magellan would never have tried but for Columbus.

I am so tired of people who do not read and opine on everything but I guess that is what the internet is for.; ९/१०/१७, ४:२५ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "What's not excusable is knowing about it and honoring murderers and slavers anyway."

Our ancestors are murderers and slavers - and rapists too no doubt.
Some of them anyway, as it is mostly the winners who breed.
There is no virtue in condemning the misdeeds of your ancestors.
This does not help in getting to heaven.; ९/१०/१७, ४:२५ PM
David Baker म्हणाले...: "Geographically, San Francisco has to be one of the prettiest cities on Planet Earth -- the hills, the Cable Cars, the waterfront, the bay, Alcatraz, the Marina, North Beach, Nob Hill, Golden Gate Bridge, the Presidio, etc, etc."

Agree 100%.

I lived in Pacific Heights briefly during the early 60's, specifically 1870 Sacramento Street, just off Van Ness. The address was a residence club (“Monroe”), a hotel of sorts where mostly young adults shared rooms - and where meals were included (breakfast - dinner). Being from New York, it was a new concept to me. Another was working for "no salary," but rather for room and board, which was great because I had arrived in SF with little money. So, a few hours in the morning washing dishes, and the rest of the day was mine free, literally.

Aside from the beauty of the city, one of the first things I noticed was the diversity and availability of public transportation. It seemed there was either a trolley, bus, or cable car on every corner. But if you had the energy, walking was the ideal way to get around. Because you discover things like tiny Chinese "luncheonettes" or counters that serve generous plates of excellent egg-foo-yung for a dollar. Or an overflowing bowl of wonton soup for 35-cents.

Then there was the SF weather; cool in the evening, and blue-sky 68-degrees during the daytime. All in all, that's why people fall in love with San Francisco. And I always regretted having left such an enchanting place, tricked by a beautiful girl calling me back to Sodom & Gomorrah.; ९/१०/१७, ४:३६ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: Erik the Red founded the Norse settlement in Greenland.

Bjarni Herjulfson is the first European known to have seen the North American mainland, but he did not go ashore according to the sagas. (Bjarni was sailing from Ireland to visit his father in Greenland for Christmas, and was blown off course by storms. When he saw land, he followed the coast northward until he reached the latitude of his father's place, and then sailed east to Greenland.)

Leif Erikson got the tale from Bjarni (and I think even bought his ship) and outfitted an expedition to check out this new country. The saga description of his voyage indicates he backtracked Bjarni's route, but it is not really known where he went to. Erik apparently was not a very nice person and he refused to give sailing directions for where he had been. However, he is the first European known to have landed in "The New World."

There then were several similar exploratory expeditions.
(At least one of the sagas tell of one such expedition seeing Irish monks in Canada, and the Irish might well have gotten there ahead of the Norse. They certainly were in Iceland, and a modern Irishman did sail to Canada with a reconstruction of an old Irish skinboat and lived to write a book about it.)

The remains found at Lanse aux Meadows, New Foundland is from the Torfinn Karlsefni expedition, which was an actual attempted settlement with several hundred people, cattle, etc., but it lasted only three years before being driven off by the the Indians.
Snorri Torfinnson is the first European baby known to have been born in America - Canada that is.

There is some evidence that the Old Norse from Greenland, Iceland, and the North Sea islands brought tradegoods from North America to Europe over the next few centuries until it all closed down with Black Death and the onset of "The Little Ice Age," but nothing proven as far as I know.; ९/१०/१७, ४:३८ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: And really, the Norse in the settlements on Greenland's west coast had to know there was land over to the west. It is not that far across. Also, the climate was a lot warmer then, and traces of Norse hunters have been found way up the coast of Greenland along the Strait.; ९/१०/१७, ४:४५ PM
Mark म्हणाले...: one of the first things I noticed was the diversity and availability of public transportation

After driving for many years, I went without a car for ten years when I moved to D.C. For a while it was fine, even exciting, with the Metro to take you to so many places and then walking or biking to places like the grocery store.

But then not having a car made the world a very small place. It was as if I was living in the 19th century, when people never traveled more than 15-20 miles from where they were born. After ten years, when I finally bought a car, I rediscovered what freedom is.; ९/१०/१७, ४:४७ PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: Someone, most likely the Portuguese, would have done this at some point no doubt.

It could well have been the Chinese. In the mid-14th century, the Yuan built a fleet of oceangoing ships that some scholars believe could have explored the North Pacific, even to the shores of North America. These mysterious ships are a subject of debate and research, however, guesstimates put the largest of them in the 1000-ton class — bigger than anything in Europe until the 17th century. Why were they built? For the same reason Columbus acquired his, exploration and trade. Just as Europe was cut off from the spice islands by political in the intervening territories, China was cut off from her land routes to the Moluccas by conflict with the Great Viet empire. The Yuan dynasty hoped to circumvent those closed land routes by sea. As it turned out the Ming, who displaced the Yuan in 1368, weren't interested in trade, thus the great ships were burned on the beach.; ९/१०/१७, ४:४८ PM
Etienne म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; ९/१०/१७, ४:५० PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: The story is that they had found the Grand Banks of Newfoundland and its codfish, and were keeping this special fishing ground hush-hush decades before Columbus. But like everything else along these lines it is highly speculative.

In 1496 Henry VII commissioned John Cabot to explore the Atlantic to the northwest with two goals in mind. To discover a northerly route to Cathay and to find the secret cod banks of the Portuguese. For almost a century before the Mayflower, English cod fishermen put into the sheltered lee of Cape Cod for fresh water and other supplies; ९/१०/१७, ४:५९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Robert Cook:

What's not excusable is knowing about it and honoring murderers and slavers anyway.

I bow to your moral superiority not only to myself but to the generations of Americans before me who knew exactly what went into conquering a continent, even if some of the receivers of stolen goods in their midst like to pretend they're better than all that. We know, as the righteous Roberts of the world have now deigned to enlighten us, that they were in the wrong about everything they chose to honor.

And not only Americans, but every significant tribe and nation on the face of the earth with any sense of pietas toward the ancestors of their tribe and culture. His holiness, Robert, does not excuse you.

(Btw, today is the feast of St. Denis. To all you unapologetic descendants of vile murderous white bastards out there: Montjoie St. Denis!, y'all.)

But, that's who you are, and I have no interest in obstructing your right to honor vile people and their vile acts.

That's mighty white of you, Robert.

Just between friends, though, you need to lay off talking out of your ass about what it takes to do what Columbus did. You're making a damned fool out of yourself.; ९/१०/१७, ५:१९ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Columbus is reported to have transported or called for the transport of Arawaks back to Spain as slaves. I wonder if there is a colony of Arawak-Spaniards there today.; ९/१०/१७, ५:२३ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: You're sounding very defensive, Angel-Dyne.; ९/१०/१७, ५:२४ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: Columbus was a progressive of his time. The controversy today arises from a changing qualification of progress or monotonic change. Not unlike diversity that denies individual dignity and normalizes racism, sexism, etc. Not unlike Pro-Choice that denies human life and normalizes sacrificial rites. Not unlike social justice adventures in anti-native activism that open abortion fields, recreate the trail of tears, and force CAIR.; ९/१०/१७, ५:२५ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: On this Columbus Day, let's celebrate the ingenuity and courage of men who set sail and explored beyond their native shores. Let's celebrate the spirit and character of the people who opened our world to new possibilities.

Let us also reconcile moral, natural, and personal imperatives.; ९/१०/१७, ५:२५ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Almost forgot that yesterday was the anniversary of the death of the sainted Che reported to have begged for his life as being of more value than his death. The Bolivians thought otherwise. The Nation has a nice tribute to Che co-authored by Bill Ayres. LOL; ९/१०/१७, ५:२६ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: I'll grant that a brief settlement was made by Norse from Greenland but nothing like a permanent presence ever occurred.

Columbus is still the discoverer.; ९/१०/१७, ५:२८ PM
tcrosse म्हणाले...: (Btw, today is the feast of St. Denis. To all you unapologetic descendants of vile murderous white bastards out there: Montjoie St. Denis!, y'all.)

Que trépasse si je faiblis!; ९/१०/१७, ५:३० PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: Columbus is reported to have transported or called for the transport of Arawaks back to Spain as slaves. I wonder if there is a colony of Arawak-Spaniards there today.

Not true. He did bring some Indians with him as evidence of the discovery but they returned with him to their islands. The colony of Spanish he left behind in Hispaniola, after the wreck of the Santa Maria, behaved very badly and was wiped out by the Indians while he was gone. They were all dead when he returned in his second voyage. Some f the Spanish killed each other.

Columbus was unsuccessful as a colonial governor but the myths that people like Cook spread are just leftist slander, similar to the slander of all Americans that comes from the left.; ९/१०/१७, ५:३२ PM
Robert Cook म्हणाले...: "There is no virtue in condemning the misdeeds of your ancestors.

This does not help in getting to heaven."

Perhaps, but there is certainly no virtue in denying the misdeeds of one's ancestors, or claiming they were justified by circumstances, or were okay "because everyone did it," or acknowledging they occurred but shrugging off the truth with a dismissive "So what?" (Such attitudes are particularly hypocritical and unseemly in residents of a nation who love to boast about their "exceptional" virtues and love of freedom and justice for all.)

Rather, the productive approach would be to contend frankly with the misdeeds of one's ancestors and endeavor not to glorify or repeat those misdeeds. But, this is not the way of human beings.

I don't believe there is a heaven; I just think no one should inflict hell on the living in order to claim heaven on earth for themselves.; ९/१०/१७, ५:३८ PM
JackWayne म्हणाले...: Angel-Dyne sounds more spot on than defensive.; ९/१०/१७, ५:३८ PM
Milwaukie guy म्हणाले...: Then, in the early 1600s two tribes of English settled along the coast, the Puritans to Plymouth Bay and the Cavaliers to Chesapeake Bay, with guns, germs and steel. It was then that everything went to shit. Surely, scrape it all off and return to hunter-gathering. It's just like backpacking!; ९/१०/१७, ५:५६ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: A coin from Olav Kyrre's time has been found in Maine, but it had a hole drilled through it, and it is thought an Indian must have gotten that in Canada and wore it as jewelry in his travels.; ९/१०/१७, ५:५८ PM
Rance Fasoldt म्हणाले...: Read Parkman's The Oregon Trail for a contemporary view of Indians 180 years ago. Speak to a Crow (Absoraka) today and you'll find there is no love lost between them and the Sioux (Lakota). Blackfeet were the enemy of all, BTW.; ९/१०/१७, ६:०४ PM
The Vault Dweller म्हणाले...: Perhaps, but there is certainly no virtue in denying the misdeeds of one's ancestors, or claiming they were justified by circumstances, or were okay "because everyone did it," or acknowledging they occurred but shrugging off the truth with a dismissive "So what?"

I would agree with you on denying misdeeds being unhelpful, but examining the actions in light of present day morality doesn't seem very helpful either. It is only relatively recently in human history that a country would view itself in a bad light for conquest. I think the world is better off this way. But it seems like it does no good to bemoan the events of history. Carthage might have become something spectacular, but I am not losing any sleep over the outcome of the third Punic war.

Columbus is absolutely an important historical figure because he represented to first sustained contact between the the two hemispheres of the planet in recorded history. All of the countries in this hemisphere exist because of what he started. Seems like an important figure for the countries of this hemisphere.; ९/१०/१७, ६:१० PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "Montjoie St. Denis!"

¡Santiago y cierra, España!; ९/१०/१७, ६:१६ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "Columbus is absolutely an important historical figure ....
All of the countries in this hemisphere exist because of what he started. "

Much more than that. He truly began European colonialism.
The chase for free or cheaply acquired territory, for markets and suppliers of luxury goods, or massive if risky profits.
He began the processes whereby Europe conquered the world, all of it, not just the Americas, both through overt conquest and cultural hegemony.; ९/१०/१७, ६:२१ PM
Drago म्हणाले...: Vault Dweller: "I would agree with you on denying misdeeds being unhelpful, but examining the actions in light of present day morality doesn't seem very helpful either."

Of course it is, assuming you are a virtue signalling standard-issue lefty who benefits daily in every single way from all that came before all the while agitating to create a societal structure much like that of current day Venezuela, or, as it is commonly known, the latest example of a lefty-created "heaven on earth"-type workers paradise.; ९/१०/१७, ६:३४ PM
Sam L. म्हणाले...: Paper won't last thru the first rain.; ९/१०/१७, ६:४२ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: "the latest example of a lefty-created "heaven on earth"-type workers paradise."

This is also a European idea.
One of the worse European ideas, but so it is.
There are few non-European ideas that have made it as globally popular memes since 1492.

Islam was a contender, but it was slowed down and stopped when the Euros broke out across the seas and established naval supremacy.; ९/१०/१७, ६:४५ PM
Rance Fasoldt म्हणाले...: Reading about Pacific Heights reminded me of the times I stayed at the El Drisco Hotel. No a/c because the Heights. With the window open, one could enjoy the foghorns in the morning, along with the delightful breakfasts. Around $40 a night, as I recall. This was 1983 and 1984. Reasonable for the time. Not completely shocking as the Hyatt Embarcadero in 1977 - I asked about the price after I'd checked in, and almost passed out when I heard the rate - $55/ night! Four years earlier I'd stayed at a brand new high-rise Travelodge, one block from Waikiki for $8/night.; ९/१०/१७, ६:५७ PM
rcocean म्हणाले...: Look, Y'all can be ashamed of your ancestors, if you want to. Some seem to get a weird kick out of it.

Not me.

I don't care what some ignorant "Son of Immigrants", foreigner, or Commie Parasite thinks. They want to partake of the American Civilization that was already built when they came here, while playing adopting some weird attitude of superiority.; ९/१०/१७, ७:०० PM
Gahrie म्हणाले...: Look, Y'all can be ashamed of your ancestors, if you want to. Some seem to get a weird kick out of it.

Not me.

I'm not even ashamed of the shit my parents did.; ९/१०/१७, ७:०८ PM
Gahrie म्हणाले...: I would agree with you on denying misdeeds being unhelpful, but examining the actions in light of present day morality doesn't seem very helpful either.

Comrade Marvin isn't trying to be helpful...he's just talking shit about America and American civilization as usual.......; ९/१०/१७, ७:११ PM
JML म्हणाले...: I asked an archeologist what his most memorable find was. He said it was excavating an early 1800 Navajo hogan. Under all the debris and half burned timbers he found a female skeleton with an infant skeleton under her, and the Apache arrowhead that killed her under both of them. Gentle and peaceful my axx. Tell that to the Pecos Indian Tribe. Oh wait - you can't. The Apache and Comanche killed most of them, and the few survivors went to the Jemez Pueblo in the 1790s.; ९/१०/१७, ७:३४ PM
autothreads म्हणाले...: I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
I'm sure that America's indigenous peoples are going without anything brought to them by European ingenuity today.

10/9/17, 11:15 AM

How many Jew haters are willing to go without things developed by Jews?

The Siberian-Americans embraced European technology wherever they saw it, from fabrics to horses to firearms. A tipi is a lot easier to make out of canvas than animal hides.; ९/१०/१७, ७:४५ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: I have not found a satisfactory article on why the Kensington Stone is a fake. All I have seen is repeats of the old arguments from 1886 that I think Hjalmar Holand satifactorily rebutted, and I agree with him that if it is a fake, it is as wonderful as a fake as it would be as the real thing.
However, if it is real, what did they think they were doing in Minnesota?
They would have known almost exactly how far north-south they were and must have had a fair idea of how far east-west. And have had absolutely no good reason for being there.
So that's a stumbler.; ९/१०/१७, ८:२९ PM
Phil 314 म्हणाले...: Without Columbus would we have La Raza?; ९/१०/१७, ८:३० PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: No, no La Raza without Columbus, in no way at all. Those people, their concept and even their hatred are all creations of the conquest. It is inescapable.; ९/१०/१७, ८:५३ PM
Fox2! म्हणाले...: Sam L. said...
Paper won't last thru the first rain.

10/9/17, 6:42 PM

It's California. They're in the middle of a drought. Paper will last for years, until the next El Niño.; ९/१०/१७, ९:०१ PM
Quaestor म्हणाले...: I have not found a satisfactory article on why the Kensington Stone is a fake.

There many more reasons to doubt its authenticity than to accept the Kensington Rune Stone as genuine.

1) Linguistics. The style is an amalgam. There are elements which are more consistent with Yngling period inscriptions than anything from the 14th century.

2) Runes. By 1368 most literate Scandavanians were writing with the Roman alphabet. For example, Snorri Sturluson, died 1241, could certainly read Icelandic runes, but everything held to have been authored by him were transcribed in the Roman style. Consider the Codex Regius, written in the Icelandic dialect before the supposed date of the Kensington Stone.

3) Length. Most authentic rune stones stand in southern Sweden and bear much-abbreviated memorial inscriptions. They are generally very scant on narrative detail. A typical stone would read like Harald raised this stone for his son Einar who took Danegeld in England. A narrative like the Kensington inscription with details like how who (8 Geats and 22 Norwegians) what (an expedition from Vinland exploring westward) where (two skerries one day's journey north from this stone) when (1362) and why (comrades dead by violence) shows evidence of 19th-century expository imperatives. If authentic the Kensington Rune Stone is unique. It makes one wonder why the Greenlanders, who had many months of forced idleness each year, never carved their story on a convenient slab.

4) Geats. Why Norwegians, a term for national identity, and Geats, an ethnic or regional identity? By the start of the 14 century, both Norway and Sweden were established monarchies. The dynastic and sectarian wars of the 11th century were long over. Would it not be more plausible for the Kensington rune carver to have written Swedes rather than Geats?

5) Geats. The sagas always speak of westward expansion and exploration as the endeavors of Norwegians and Danes. As a rule, the Swedes were more attracted to the east.

6) Geography. The Stone speaks of an expedition westward from Vinland. That's 2,340 miles or more. Would it not be more probable that Norse explorers in the New World would have pushed west in stages, with a string of settlements and outposts up the Saint Lawrence and across the Great Lakes? Wouldn't an exploration party into the Minnesota prairie be more plausibly launched from a base somewhere near modern Duluth?; ९/१०/१७, ११:२१ PM
David Baker म्हणाले...: Before we leave Pacific Heights, I managed to wrangle a job not far from the residence club on Sacramento Street, at a popular restaurant called the "Hippo," or "Hippopotamus." They had developed a very unique concept; hamburgers from around the world. Like their Italian burger, or Russian burger, made with authentic sauces typical of Italy and Russia. Also things like the Chocolate burger, Cinnamon burger, and of course; the California burger.

Which brings me to a funny yet "horrifying" story. When I first arrived in SF (circa 1962) and still virtually broke, I ordered a hamburger in a stand-up place reminiscent of a "White Tower" back east. I had barely enough money in my pocket to pay for the burger; 50-cents, which was a pretty hefty price for a White-Tower-style burger. But hamburgers in California, I quickly learned, were on a much higher level - not just something you wolf down in 20 seconds.

And when my California burger arrived, it was beautiful, gorgeous, a hamburger fit for a king! But not a pauper. Because when I lifted the bun, I saw mustard, and mayonnaise under the fresh lettuce and perfect tomato. What a horror, who ever heard of such things on a hamburger. I might have been eating my last supper, with MUSTARD and MAYONNAISE! Appalling, but what could I do. I had ordered a California Burger and that's what they gave me. So I ate it just to keep from starving. But I will admit that it contained elements of a great hamburger beyond the mustard and mayonnaise, and 10 cuts above anything cooked up at a White Tower in New York City.

Finally I will say that California was a place of ideas. Like the "salad bar" and a host of other restaurant innovations. In many ways California was a different, advanced world. A place of limitless energy and inventiveness, and unparalleled beauty. So it's no surprise that's where Silicon Valley was born, and fueled by Hippo burgers I'm certain.; १०/१०/१७, ५:३० AM
Rusty म्हणाले...: Hagar said...
I have not found a satisfactory article on why the Kensington Stone is a fake. All I have seen is repeats of the old arguments from 1886 that I think Hjalmar Holand satifactorily rebutted, and I agree with him that if it is a fake, it is as wonderful as a fake as it would be as the real thing.
However, if it is real, what did they think they were doing in Minnesota?
They would have known almost exactly how far north-south they were and must have had a fair idea of how far east-west. And have had absolutely no good reason for being there.
So that's a stumbler.
All the more reason to label it a hoax. The added fact that there is no accompanying native narrative about light skinned, red haired visitors to any of the tribes east of Minnesota. Certainly an event that would be recounted many times over the years. They would have had to pass through Huron Ojibwa and Iriquois territory.; १०/१०/१७, ७:०१ AM
Todd म्हणाले...: Hagar said...

And really, the Norse in the settlements on Greenland's west coast had to know there was land over to the west. It is not that far across. Also, the climate was a lot warmer then, and traces of Norse hunters have been found way up the coast of Greenland along the Strait.

10/9/17, 4:45 PM

IMPOSSIBLE! Literally EVERYONE knows that global warming is a singularly modern [20th century] curse upon the world. Keep up man!; १०/१०/१७, ७:३५ AM
Hagar म्हणाले...: I have seen one triumphant statement that someone in 1987 finally published an article definitively destroying the idea of the Kensington Stone as being real, but there was no footnote stating who, and where this article can be found.

General speculation about probability will not do. It is possible, though straining one's credulity. There needs to be an explication of how the fakery was done and by whom.; १०/१०/१७, ८:२२ AM