"We heard from teachers who pump during a short free period in their classrooms that don’t lock, one with a video camera recording. And then there was this nightmare: 'The CEO of the company used to announce when I was going to pump by singing a little song for everyone to hear: "Pump, pump, pump it up!"' wrote a woman who worked in a Silicon Valley tech start-up. She also recalled a time when she wasn’t permitted to leave a meeting and her milk began to leak through her shirt. (She quit and recently began her own consulting company.)..."
From "Workplaces must give moms space to pump breast milk. Women share what it’s really like" (WaPo).
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१५१ टिप्पण्या:
Oh sure. If I want to leave a meeting to pump, everybody says "What a jackoff!"
Oh sure. If I want to leave a meeting to pump, everybody says "What a jackoff!"
LOL! ;-D
Why the employment discrimination tag? Are male employees being given space to pump breast milk?
I know this isn't the intention of the writers of such stories, but, sometimes it's hard not to think "Huh. Maybe the workplace isn't such a good place for moms with a newborn. They should be home with the kid.".
Here's a novel suggestion: How about if women marry young and have babies then start a career after rearing their children? In fact, they could even start college later on. Offspring of young mothers are healthier than those of older ones anyway. For that matter, offspring of younger fathers are healthier, too.
Or, alternatively, women could move to another country with paid maternity leave. I don't understand how it's possible to leave a 1, 2 or 3 month old at day care and continue to pump milk full time. Doesn't milk supply go down? You need to pump 10-12 times a day to get a full supply.
Mothers can take 12 months of paid leave in Canada after birth. 40% of salary is reimbursed by the government employment insurance benefits. Many private companies top of salary to 95% for 6 months.
"Why the employment discrimination tag? Are male employees being given space to pump breast milk?"
To give you something to think about.
Keep trying.
If you can't hold your milk, you don't belong in the workplace!
`How about if women marry young and have babies then start a career after rearing their children? In fact, they could even start college later on.
Who would they marry? How would they meet their spouse? All of their peers would be at university.
"I don't understand how it's possible to leave a 1, 2 or 3 month old at day care and continue to pump milk full time."
Why are you assuming the baby is in day care? Maybe the father is the home-based spouse? Maybe a grandparent or a nanny is doing home-based care taking.
"Why the employment discrimination tag? Are male employees being given space to pump breast milk?"
Was an article about males making breast milk as a result of medicine. Doubt they'd get much of a supply, but it's an idea.
Pumping, even in the comfort of your own home, is a degrading experience. Pretty up the work space, diversity train the dinosaurs, whatever. You'll still be a cow attached to a milking machine.
@mockturtle,
Here's a novel suggestion: How about if women marry young and have babies then start a career after rearing their children?
BURN THE WITCH! BURN THE WITCH!
Have you ever tried suggesting this to young women? Have you eve seen the looks on their faces when you discuss the basic biological fact that their peak "baby-making" years are between 18 & 30 biologically speaking?
Most young women today act like they're not an adult until 30. And I ain't implying that the young men are any better....
Mothers can take 12 months of paid leave in Canada after birth. 40% of salary is reimbursed by the government employment insurance benefits.
But they won't let you into the country. Sad.
It's difficult to breast-feed and work and that gives weight to other options, but some women are picking this option and the question is how much accommodation is needed.
Compare it to accommodations that are made for people with disabilities or people with religious needs. You could say disabled people should just make it easier on themselves and others by staying home, but I doubt that you would!
What if a person has set times during the day when he needs to pray for 15 minutes? Whether employers should be required by the law to accommodate is different from whether employers should have economic and social pressure to accommodate.
"Here's a novel suggestion: How about if women marry young and have babies then start a career after rearing their children?"
So women should begin their professional careers when they're 40?
That's like what I heard when I was growing up in the 1950s: You can be a mother or you can be a career girl.
Some of you people are so retrograde. You're making statements that would be useful as evidence if you were the employer in a sex discrimination case.
wwww asks: Who would they marry? How would they meet their spouse? All of their peers would be at university.
Cotillions? [Just kidding].
Women's bathrooms are full of roaches?
Some of you people are so retrograde.
Thanks, Ann./s
If we're looking at healthy children and a healthier society, then my suggestion is hardly 'retrograde'. If you're looking purely at 'gender equality' in the legal sense, then you would suppose so.
I've just been reading Camille Paglia. Like Beauvoir, she sees the modern workplace as an important place for equality between men and women to be achieved. I think she deals more forthrightly than Beauvoir with biological facts. She says feminists, among others, need to respect motherhood. She supports part-time programs at college, etc., so that women can realistically start both a career and a family during "prime" years. So yes, I think accommodation for pumping at work is reasonable.
Compare it to accommodations that are made for people with disabilities or people with religious needs.
I've seen government offices where the accommodations for a disabled person were so convoluted & expensive, you wondered if it would just be cheaper to pay the poor guy to stay home. No doubt better for his mental & social health to work, & that's not a negligible social good, but there's a reason why it's mostly government offices where I've seen this.
"Religious needs"? How tough is it to close the door to the conference room, put down the prayer rug that you leave at your desk facing East, & pray away? Same thing for Orthodox Jews, except minus the "East" business & prayer rug. Now, when the Catholics decide they want to chant the Monastic Daily Office, then you gots troubles!
"Women's bathrooms are full of roaches?"
The reference is to storerooms.
A key issue here is that obviously there are restrooms, but women don't like having to use a restroom for this purpose. Do you think food prep belongs in a bathroom? It seems like bodily function stuff -- excretion -- so that might seem bathroom-y, but you're prepping something to be saved and consumed. And you're going to need a refrigerator.
It's amazing that women are willing to do this, even under good conditions. I don't know why an employer wouldn't want to be good about this. It's not that difficult, but it's just maybe something that men would rather not have to think about. But you ought to be thankful for all the women who are performing this service for the next generation and honor your own mother if she did it for you.
Ann Althouse said...
To give you something to think about.
Keep trying.
You can lead a commenter to something to think about, but you can't make him think.
"Pumping, even in the comfort of your own home, is a degrading experience. Pretty up the work space, diversity train the dinosaurs, whatever. You'll still be a cow attached to a milking machine."
Wow, really? Thanks to technology breast pumps have improved over the years. If you feel like a cow pumping, why don't you feel like one breastfeeding?
Of course this country needs to give working mothers an accommodation in a clean pleasant environment to pump. Why is it most modern countries make having babies so much easier for the working parent? Why balther on about declining birth rates and then make procreation so unfriendly? This country is retrograde, time to progress.
"How tough is it to close the door to the conference room, put down the prayer rug that you leave at your desk facing East, & pray away?"
Not every workplace has an available conference room.
And there may be meetings or other mandatory things scheduled at the prescribed prayer times.
What the breastfeeding women want is also not that tough to provide. That's a reason for doing what is needed, not for saying the woman is entirely on her own.
Whatever happened to common courtesy?
@YoungHegelian
In both of those areas, the demands are for reasonable accommodations.
My old firm had no accommodations for pumping so I used to swap my office for a secretary's bay to let her pump. I was embarrassed by her gratitude, it cost me nothing at all and was my obligation for common decency. But it seemed to alleviate her stress quite a lot.
Employers should definitely accommodate moms, we should all. But I don't want laws, because the regulatory details inevitably evolve into a tax on business collected by plaintiff attorneys.
This explains why women who are sick of being discriminated against are going out on their own to build thousands of fantastic thriving companies, sweeping up frustrated pumpers and other undervalued talent everywhere to generate unprecedented profits.
Ann Althouse said...What if a person has set times during the day when he needs to pray for 15 minutes? Whether employers should be required by the law to accommodate is different from whether employers should have economic and social pressure to accommodate.
Functionally it's not (different); certainly not in this area. Social pressure drives laws and the social pressure is for accommodations towards sympathetic groups. The working disabled are a very sympathetic group. Lactating workers are a sympathetic group. Religious workers...are not a very sympathetic group.
"Laws" is probably a little misleading anyway--lots of this stuff gets handled by regulations and not laws. Easier to change!
...but it's just maybe something that men would rather not have to think about.
I suspect there are men who like to think about it, but they are probably not the men you want to have thinking about it.
Why should a woman have to pump in a bathroom? Is she urinating or defecating? Is pumping milk a germ laden bodily function akin to relieving the body of waste?
Store babies so you don't need refrigerator or bottle.
Amazon's wet nurse service will solve this problem.
My mother stayed home and my father was the breadwinner. So no, I've got very little sympathy. Having a child little stressful for you? Gee I'm sorry - not your employer or your co-workers' problem.
My wife and I don't have kids and she complains on occasion about all the perks and benefits that are given to mothers - paid maternity leave, flex working/home working, "of course you don't have to attend tonight's 7:00 pm conference call, you've got the little one!", etc.
No, working mothers don't need any more perks until companies start handing out at least a few accommodations to the hard-working folks who don't ask for accommodations. People who need to pray 5 times daily don't need any more perks either.
Cowa only need to be milked at sunrise and sunset.
You horrible transphobes!
Men can lactate, too.
Why are we crying over spilled milk.
I thought we weren't supposed to do that.
Ann Althouse said...
Whatever happened to common courtesy?
8/4/17, 12:54 PM
Sorry, that ship sailed and it was piloted by lefties and feminists.
Now back on point. It is easy to say "why can't you just make room for a breast feeding/pumping space." BUT not every office or work place is a university or a high-tech mega office in Silicon valley with oodles of free, only offices to reallocate. Many places of business have JUST enough space for the work of the business. Until the company I work for relocated, we had two folks working in mocked-up work spaces set up in the main aisle of the office AND even if there is room to expand, that costs money. Money for a space that is used for a couple/few months at a time while a woman actually needs it. Sorry but you need to try and be a little more realistic and understanding of the business as well as the employee. The bathroom should be clean and safe. It should be a usable space for this for the brief period of time that is needed. Or do you think that the employee would be willing to take a brief, small salary hit in order to fund this "pumping space"? Or would you consider that suggestion sexist?
My mother married at 21, started her career. First child aged 26, sahm until she was 33. Then she resumed her career. It began to take off as we hit our teens and she was running the show by the time she was 45, by which time her children were at college. Retirement came round just as her grandchildren appeared. (And she is still married to the same man). She has always said it was much easier for her to resume her career when she was in her early thirties then it would have been if she had been older.
Feminism has made it possible for women to adopt the same lifecycle as men. But women don't have the same lifecycle as men and it is not anti-feminist to think through the implications of that. We shouldn't assume that men are the default sex and that what suits a man is the only way to organise things.
My company had a "mental health" room--basically an empty quiet room where you could take a short break, etc. Next to that there was a lactation room--marked "pumping only." The lactation room was a little bit smaller, but had two big chairs (the other room had a long-ish bench/sorta-couch).
That lasted for about a year. One day they switched up the floor and made the lactation room the one w/the couch and got rid of the other one altogether.
Not sure if there's any lesson there...just my "lived experience."
Ann Althouse said...Whatever happened to common courtesy?
Courtesy towards women is sexist.
Except when it's legally required--then it's sexist to oppose.
See? When it's not mandatory it's sexist, but when it's mandatory it's sexist to disagree.
Very simple.
Try scheduling a meeting with two female workers who have to pump every three hours at different times daily, three muslim workers who are unavailable during prayer times and four Jewish workers who have to leave early on Friday. If the Jews or muslims are also the pumpers your meeting window is gonna be mighty tight. Not to mention the meeting space is going to get pretty cramped after you create a trans-bathroom, prayer space and pumping comfort station.
@AA,
What the breastfeeding women want is also not that tough to provide. That's a reason for doing what is needed, not for saying the woman is entirely on her own.
Whatever happened to common courtesy?
If the requirements for having mixed workplaces stopped with "breast-pumping" accommodations, then, go for it! Make them mandatory on employers!
But the requirements don't. They just keep getting added on & on.
I don't know the answer here. We live in a society where brain counts much more economically than brawn in the marketplace, & women have have half of the available brains. If women are included in a workforce, the number of "brains of quality" perforce increases (no matter what rh says...).
But, on the other hand, women working creates all sorts of social dislocations for men, women, & children. One of the greatest of those social dislocations is that no 1st world country now has even a replacement birth rate (the US has a small "growth" rate only because of immigrant women's birthrates). A lot of that comes from the fact that if a woman starts having children at 30, she's probably not going to have more than two, which isn't replacement rate.
We are engaged in a noble social experiment in attempting to create economic equality for women. But, like all experiments, it may not work. The ugly, barbaric demographic fact may be that societies that don't chain their women to the bed disappear.
We'll start knowing the outcome around 2050. If I'm still here, I'll probably be drooling in a cup & won't care. God have mercy on us all. We tried to do right.
" ... I've got very little sympathy. Having a child little stressful for you? Gee I'm sorry - not your employer or your co-workers' problem."
Oh no! What about the declining birthrate?! Let's make it as hard as possible for young couples to have children. Maybe they too will be childless like you and your bitter wife.
Solved.
Give pumping-mothers and thin-skinned objectors to maternal natural biological functions – give them both – give them all – Hasmat suits. It’s not like men want stockroom roaches crawling all over their naked-business, not anywhere, except in Laslo Films. Men who don’t have empathy on this question need to get the most mileage out of what they’ve got. Methinks there’s gotta be a place for pumping mothers. Common sensical. Here’s to hope. Longitudinal cross correlations of pump–to-hiree-to-fertility-ratios will take too long. Must reconnoiter the roaches - make sure they’re not business-men dressed up as roaches.
What would this cost? - set aside rooms? - safe rooms? - multi-purpose rooms? - what benefits? What’s the ratio of pumping mothers to the pool of available, English-speaking, tech-savy, all-available-workers? Does this require isolation only on currently-pumping mothers? What about labor market future potentials? And what accommodations for illegal, non-English speaking, pumpers who pump, out in public, on golf greens, where businessmen discussing these questions might get distracted by nature?
Okay, not solved.
Ann Althouse said...
What the breastfeeding women want is also not that tough to provide.
Then by all means go ahead and provide it.
Wait, what? You're not offering to provide it? You're expecting someone else to provide it?
Note that I'm all for an employer providing it. I just hate it when someone who has never run a business tells people running a business how easy it is to provide accommodation X ( never mentioning that this is on top of providing accommodations A-W, and soon to be followed by Y and Z). So now you need another room, with a door, and a light, and an outlet, that can't be used for anything else because it must be available on demand. All for an employee who may choose to leave 6 months from now anyway.
Some of you people are so retrograde
Sometimes backwards is the correct way to go.
The CEO of the company used to announce when I was going to pump by singing a little song for everyone to hear: "Pump, pump, pump it up!"
Where's Elvis Costello when you really need him?
In both of those areas, the demands are for reasonable accommodations.
Who decides what is reasonable?
Men can lactate, too.
Only if they've been working too long at the chicken processing plant.
I agree with Lucien that many mothers expect accommodations without regard to the burden they place on their fellow workers.
I don't know why an employer wouldn't want to be good about this. It's not that difficult, but it's just maybe something that men would rather not have to think about.
It is difficult for a growing company that is bursting at the seams, but doesn't want to invest in a larger space (the daughter works at such a place -- I don't know where a nursing mother would pump in a jam-packed office).
A place that has roaches in its storeroom is pretty much the norm in any big city, especially for any building that has aged. It's not like roaches attack you. A little common sense and you can ignore them, and prevent any germs. How can someone who is squicked out by a cockroach -- or mouse -- deal with an explosive diaper event that shot way up the back?
When the wife pumped, all she wanted was a quiet room. And she was able to secure that, by asking politely to a person who had compassion (and a door that closed). I don't think it was hard.
BTW -- if you are a man, and you're lactating, you better see a doctor. Lactation in men is one sign of breast cancer.
Funny. Our last breastfeeder was given the use of the server room.
Commercial dairy equipment placed in the room would be nice.
Amazon's wet nurse service will solve this problem.
Somewhere, a certain Mr. Bezos is firing off an e-mail to start a new Amazon service line.
@Cracker,
Our last breastfeeder was given the use of the server room.
Was that considered a favor or a punishment? Loud & cold generally aren't a winning combo for such activities.
In our world of gender equality we have to consider the needs of women plumbers, airline pilots, bus drivers, construction workers, forklift drivers and slaughter house butchers.
It should be easy to find a simple accommodation, no?
This is a first world issue. The mom should be glad she didn't have to drop her baby in a rice paddy and continue working.
In the capital improvement budget, I would give a higher priority to facilities for mother pumpers than for bathrooms for the transgendered. Does this make me a sexist?.…..I don't get around much. I don't know any pumping mothers or transgendered people, or at least any who have vented their problems in my presence. I have the vague sense that this is the kind of problem that people of good will could resolve without too much fuss......I read somewhere that Emily Rajkowski, the supermodel, complained that she missed out on modeling gigs because of her too ample bosom. This is another example of a problem that people of good will could resolve without involving the government.
Just yesterday was my wife's first day as manager at a seasonal store. She's thrilled to get some time out of the house/away from the kids, and she loves the place. They're setting up in a completely empty work space and she had to pump sitting on bare floor. Today she didn't call up the corporate chain or threaten lawsuits. She packed a folding chair.
Simple question. What did new mothers do about pumping breast milk 100 years ago? No vacuum pump to obtain the milk and no refrigeration to preserve it - at least in most factories, offices and out on the farm fields, back-in-the-day.
Sebastion sarcs: This explains why women who are sick of being discriminated against are going out on their own to build thousands of fantastic thriving companies, sweeping up frustrated pumpers and other undervalued talent everywhere to generate unprecedented profits.
Heh.
Somewhere, a certain Mr. Bezos is firing off an e-mail to start a new Amazon service line.
I heard Bezos makes lactating women wear those double-pumping-cup bras with the huge battery pack strapped to their side, as they walk around the office. Dinner and show, he calls it. But what do you expect from a man who publishes transcripts of the President's phone call with world leaders?
Dr. Laura Schlesinger castigates those who have children in order to achieve some kind of "fulfillment" for themselves. She correctly observes that once you bring a human into the world, it's about them, not you. Parents can come to an accommodation with this, but they should start out with their priorities in the proper order.
This is among the many reasons I never had any interest in breastfeeding my three children. They are all perfectly healthy and happy and if they were any more bonded to me we'd share a limb. I never sat on any dirty floors, I never watched roaches scurry anywhere, and I never leaked in public. I snuggled and cooed to my babies while they drank from a lovingly prepared bottle of formula. And we were all happy. -- Jessica
P.S. Breastfeeding is overrated. In first world countries the differences between breast-fed and formula-fed babies, by every measurement, are negligible. -- Jessica
Bathrooms are cleaned every day where I've worked. They ought to be pretty good.
"Simple question. What did new mothers do about pumping breast milk 100 years ago? No vacuum pump to obtain the milk and no refrigeration to preserve it - at least in most factories, offices and out on the farm fields, back-in-the-day."
Good Lord. Let me guess, you're a Millenial.
"Simple question. What did new mothers do about pumping breast milk 100 years ago? No vacuum pump to obtain the milk and no refrigeration to preserve it - at least in most factories, offices and out on the farm fields, back-in-the-day."
They had the baby with them 24/7. They didn't work in factories or offices. Most married women were told to resign. In the fields, they either leaked or had the baby on their backs or next to them in a basket or blanket on the ground and fed them ad lib.
Unknown doesn't realize that more women in the workforce IS the reason for the lower birthdate. I shouldn't be surprised, what with the quality of Unknown's prior comments...
“ .. What did new mothers do about pumping breast milk 100 years ago? ..”
Canned Carnation condensed. Process goes way back.
Here's a novel suggestion: How about if women marry young and have babies then start a career after rearing their children?
Some of you people are so retrograde.
Well, besides the biological facts that having children at a younger age is healthier for both the children AND the mother, there are other advantages to earlier parenting.
And leaving aside the fact that most women in the United States don't have 'careers' or high powered jobs and that many young women who have delayed their child bearing/marrying until after college find themselves in pretty much the same jobs that non college educated women are working in......having your children when young.
1. You are YOUNG and have the energy to deal with one or several children as opposed to being a late 30's mid 40's parent. ENERGY. Children have it....you don't.
2. When there are other young couples around you, in your friendship circles, you can share the chores of child raising. Unlike being an approaching middle age couple who have children whom are not wanted at adult and childless gatherings. Your support group has moved on and you are now not necessarily a social pariah but....damned close.
3 Even worse, by delaying children until you are in your late 30's you will be almost 60 years old with teenagers still darkening your door, sulking and whining at you. 60!!!!! with teenagers Ghastly!!!
4. When you are IN your 40's, your children are grown and (hopefully) gone on their own adult lives. This leaves you to be still in your prime, without children. Free to embark on the joy of being a childless couple who can explore the next aspects of your relationships. Take that trip to Paris, sans children or teenagers. Decide to have an afternoon delight with NO ONE to annoy you. On a whim, spend the night in a different city with no one that you are responsible for....except maybe your cat or dog.
4.5. You are FREE. An adult still young enough to enjoy life before becoming a 'senior' citizen.
5. If your children are also having families at a younger age, you get to be Grandparents while still young enough to enjoy the process. Not a decreptit 70 or even 80 year old fart that the Grandkids don't want to be around. Grandparents at 55 or the Crypt Keeper Grandparents.
Having a 'career' is not the most important thing in your life. To squander your life on an aspiration (career) where once you reach that certain age you are going to be squeezed out anyway is (in my opinion) a most foolish thing to do.
But....hey...your choices.
" YoungHegelian said...
@Cracker,
Our last breastfeeder was given the use of the server room.
Was that considered a favor or a punishment? Loud & cold generally aren't a winning combo for such activities."
Not a punishment, but perhaps a bit of a message. Not the office she was no doubt expecting when she made the request.
Thank you, DBQ. Yes, it's the old fashioned way to do things, but it's also the CORREXT way.
"Canned Carnation condensed"
The stuff that used to be marked (perhaps still is), "not fit for babies"?
Unknown also doesn't realize that the question about 100 years ago was more rhetorical than anything. That said - funny how the world still turned and things still got done back then.
DBQ: Thank you for expanding on my premise. And so eloquently, too.
".....more women in the workforce IS the reason for the lower birthdate [sic]."
Tell that to Ivanka Trump, who is in favor of being supportive of working moms.
"What if a person has set times during the day when he needs to pray for 15 minutes?"
Shoot him, would be my advice. Before he shoots you.
My company has a "mother's room" There are three women in my office who all recently returned from maternity leave. All of them are pumping in their offices-they draw their curtains-disgusting. I saw one of the bumps in their offices-so offensive-i almost puked.
tits
Human beings are mammals. The defining trait of mammals is that they breast feed their offspring. It makes no sense for a mammal to be upset, offended, or disgusted by breast feeding, or to begrudge accommodating breast feeding; such creatures should simply not exist. The only logical reason for the existence of "people" who are anti-breast-feeding is that the UFO conspiracy theorists are correct in their belief that alien lizard-people walk the Earth disguised as human beings. The best way to deal with people who are anti-breast feeding is to point at them and scream "LIZARD PERSON!!!!" over and over at the top of your lungs until they either go away or peel off their mask and swallow a guinea pig whole.
Ann Althouse said...
Some of you people are so retrograde.
They're deplorable.
Out here in the wilds of Oregon, people go up into the mountains with chain saws and hack down giant trees. And in West Virginia, they go down into coal mines and toil in the darkness at the coal face. I don't think they have any pump rooms. Of course, when feminists like Althouse talk about having a "career", they don't mean working for a living. They mean having someone else be forced by the government to provide them with a very expensive playroom where they can indulge their hobby of pretending to be serious people.
Right, because every conservative HAS to be 100% supportive of what Ivanka Trump advocates for.
WTF does that have to do with the point?
Jamescbennett - can you please point to the anti breast feeding advocates in the thread?
The moral of the story is women are never happy no matter how much you try to accommodate them. So there's no point in trying.
What the breastfeeding women want is also not that tough to provide.
Says the person who has never owned a business or had employees.
In an ideal world, there would be a nice private room with comfy sofa's chairs, a television or music to relax while the employee milks herself. Well, the world is not ideal.
Not all businesses are big corporations, government managed institutions or even small sanitary office environments. In a small business, such as a Mom & Pop restaurant, there isn't any other space than the employee bathroom (usually just one for everybody), storeroom or utility room. I'm assuming the walk in refrigerator or freezer would be unacceptable too.
Should the restaurant owner be forced to build a separate room onto the building for the occasional breast milk pumping employee? The cost would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. California, more likely 70K just for permits, environmental impact etc etc etc etc.
The employee CHOSE to have a baby and CHOSE to breastfeed instead of formula. Unlike a person with disabilities who doesn't choose to be in a wheel chair or have other disabilties....the mother CHOSE to take up this burden. Remember it is the hardest job in the world. So, why should everyone else have to accommodate the mother and father of young children when they did NOT choose to be parents. The burden does not lie on everyone else.
Titus said...
My company has a "mother's room" There are three women in my office who all recently returned from maternity leave. All of them are pumping in their offices-they draw their curtains-disgusting. I saw one of the bumps in their offices-so offensive-i almost puked.
tits
8/4/17, 2:14 PM
Well aren't you the socially conscientious and accommodating one! So open minded, so sharing! Bravo to you! Thanks for showing us right-wing Nazi troglodytes how to behave! ;)
I've worked in a number of Silicon Valley companies from startups to one of the biggest companies. I can't imagine a CEO in any of those companies making such a comment. Sure, there can be assholes anywhere, and it only takes one, but this sounds bogus. On top of that, the hours and stress involved in working for a startup probably isn't a good match for a new mom, and often isn't a good match for a new dad either. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices.
Ann, that "Start your professional career when you are forty" is an option well worth considering.
My Mom went that route, and it worked very well for her. She used to say that she learned everything she needed to know about dealing with engineers from her years as a Cub Scout Den Mother.
She had a good career working on not one but two distinguished and impressive engineering projects.
The twenty years you "lose" are spent maturing, learning organizational skills -- and building a family. You get to learn from your husband's mistakes, and benefit from the wealth that he has built, and his support when you finally launch your career.
Most husbands I have seen are somewhere between enthusiastic and wildly enthusiastic about their wives launching on a career once the kids are out of the house (and they don't have to be all the way out of the house -- when your youngest hits high school, they are pretty independent).
And you get 20-30 years to build your second career! What with the increased maturity and experience, that can be like 30-50 years.
"What the breastfeeding women want is also not that tough to provide."
"Says the person who has never owned a business or had employees."
Ivanka Trump doesn't agree.
I love how ITS JUST NOT FAIR!
Women have a higher life expectancy than men.
Women have higher graduation rates than men.
Women have lower suicide rates.(They attempt more suicides though)
Women get shorter sentences for the same crimes than men.
The only place women are discriminated against are in democrat campaigns and staffs. Seriously all you do is bitch and moan about first world problems. Go tell some of those Yazidi women Obama sold to ISIS how hard it is finding a place to pump milk.
Cracker - "’Canned Carnation condensed’ The stuff that used to be marked (perhaps still is), "not fit for babies?’"
Yeah. But, hundred years ago? Cracker, no real answers here on pumping questions. Feeling for the mothers, More right in my orientation than Trump in his actual practices. I don’t see Trump subsidizing pumping. Unless Republican senators find a way to sell it via cost-benefit. Maybe Ivanka will get in his ear? Dunno.
Cracker - delayed (sorry). Saw your bootstrapping quip yesterday. Fair shot! No problem with Trump bootstrapping. Glad he did. He’s having trouble passing legislation on his own. His executive orders have mixed results. Guessing he will/must bootstrap more. Tweet less. Something like that. I still wish him to drain the swamp. His big goal (my guess) is not tax reform. It’s Big Budget. I see a lot of slushing going on. If he gets it. Don’t know.
wwww said...
Mothers can take 12 months of paid leave in Canada after birth. ...
It's worse than that.
"Right now, for one year, you get 55 per cent of your income up to a maximum of $543 a week. If you want to take 18 months, you would receive 15 weeks of maternity leave at the 55-per-cent rate, and the next 61 weeks of parental leave at 33 per cent."
The Liberals expect the new plan to cost $152-million over five years.
($30.4 million/year) / (380323 births/year) = $79.93 / birth.
That's a gonga!
Even taking into account they might be talking about Canadian money rather than real money, what's wrong with this picture?
Jamescbennett suggests: The best way to deal with people who are anti-breast feeding is to point at them and scream "LIZARD PERSON!!!!" over and over at the top of your lungs until they either go away or peel off their mask and swallow a guinea pig whole.
:-D I like your style, James!
"Wow, really? Thanks to technology breast pumps have improved over the years. If you feel like a cow pumping, why don't you feel like one breastfeeding?"
Wow, really?
1) One involves an alive human baby with eyes and smiles and needs, one involves metal and plastic.
2) When the milk lets down, the physiological difference is markedly different between infant and machine. Some call it a mini orgasm. The Lord (or nature, if you prefer) gave woman a boon for breastfeeding her infant.
Common courtesy solves this problem in many instances. It is true, however, the breast feeding / pumping / motherhood are simply incompatible with many occupations / work environments. Manners and respect go a long way regardless.
All youse spoiled American women should just shut yer yaps and be grateful you're not a Yazidi woman. Put yer titties away and shut up.
James L. Salmon said...
It is true, however, the breast feeding / pumping / motherhood are simply incompatible with many occupations / work environments.
What gets in the wringer?
When I was born, women who were having children were mostly housewives. Well, I should say, in our neighborhood anyway.
I remember the only lady who had a job every day, was Mrs Peterson, who had a double mastectomy, and was probably menopausal anyway.
My mother had the whole castle in which to plug me in to one of the ports. Since she got knocked up again after I was born, she probably had both ports plugged in.
Anyway, I guess the new thing is to hand the kids off to teenagers to baby sit your kids, while you go to work and complain about milk shooting out of your breasts because the damn receipt of the product is 40 miles away in the suburbs, with a teenager glued to her smart phone and texting her boyfriend or sexual predator friend.
The increase off women in the workplace has been, among other things, a huge boost to the economy. At certain times breastfeeding comes with this. Deal with it, people.
The boorishness of some of the conduct is quite remarkable. I am still innocent enough to believe that they are far from typical outliers.
"1) One involves an alive human baby with eyes and smiles and needs, one involves metal and plastic.
2) When the milk lets down, the physiological difference is markedly different between infant and machine. Some call it a mini orgasm. The Lord (or nature, if you prefer) gave woman a boon for breastfeeding her infant."
It's what the machine will do for your baby that should make pumping less "degrading". It's either that or bottle feed, or stay home full time and never ever leave your baby's side for 6 months to a year or so. I guess we all see things in different ways. I'm grateful to technology for providing far superior breast pumps than back in the day.
Do pumps make noise similar to when a baby is a sucking on a tit? Are pumps painful? Does a women's tits become raw and chapped when they are pumping and when a baby is sucking her off?
What does the milk taste like? How about the consistency? Could the mother whip the tit out and spray her milk at a friend for fun? Can it shoot across the room? I am on a boring conference call where they are speaking about the Oxford Comma and Neuro-linguistic Programming and R and Python and Pig and github. In other words I have no idea what they are talking about but am a good bullshitter. "Love your Pig and Python work and don't get me started with your Ruby Rails girl.
I don't begrudge working women space to breast feed. That said:
Unknown wrote: "They had the baby with them 24/7. They didn't work in factories or offices. Most married women were told to resign"
You don't know much about the Industrial Revolution. Married women certainly did work in Victorian factories. I don't think any accommodation was made for them, and no, I do not think that was a good thing. I don't know how they managed but somehow they did.
"Jamescbennett - can you please point to the anti breast feeding advocates in the thread?" -- I Callahan
I'm using "anti-breast-feeding" as shorthand for the "upset, offended, or disgusted by breast feeding, or to begrudge accommodating breast feeding" line earlier in my post. So:
Lucien: "My wife...complains...about all the perks and benefits given to mothers"
Anonymous: "Breastfeeding is overrated."
Titus: "All of them are pumping in their offices-they draw their curtains-disgusting. I saw one of the [p]umps in their offices-so offensive-i almost puked."
For the record, I'm a libertarian. I don't think any business should be forced to accommodate breast-feeding mothers who wish to pump at work. I believe the moral way to deal with people and organizations with such anti-human beliefs and policies is to shun and mock them.
PS: That's a gorgeous shepherd.
Most of this could be handled through arrangements made by the individual women, I would think.
With my first child I had to work full time (conceding that "had to" is subjective but we were working our way out of debt that was largely due to my husband supporting his parents and siblings for a few years.) No family to take care of the baby so she went to daycare, right next door to my place of employment. I spent my lunch break in my car breastfeeding her- only because there wasn't a great location either at the daycare or at work. Did some pumping but wasn't very successful with it so we supplemented with some formula.
When she was weaned I still spent my lunch break with her and she took some of her first steps in the grassy area next to the parking lot which was no less wondrous than it would have been at home.
Not everyone has a daycare facility next door, but generally there are options to work things out if your goal is really to work them out and not to claim victim status.
I used a breast pump for over 10 months, mostly in stalls of public restrooms. As a young attorney I made motion appearances in San Diego, Riverside, and San Bernardino Counties. Yes, breast pumps make noise and for me took about ten to 15 minutes to use. One time I was about half way through when there was a knock on the main door to the restroom. It then opened and a gentleman announced that he was with security and had been informed there was a strange sound coming from one of the stalls. I told him what I was doing and he didn't ask for me to open the stall door or provide proof of what I was doing. He was very embarrassed and apologized profusely. This was before 9/11 I don't know what would happen now.
Even taking into account they might be talking about Canadian money rather than real money, what's wrong with this picture?
American women & spouses could move to Canada for work & then move back after she has the babies. Wins all around! Both should train in a STEM field. Tech most likely to get you hired over the border.
announced that he was with security and had been informed there was a strange sound coming from one of the stalls
Was he humming "Good Vibrations?"
Tech most likely to get you hired over the border.
It worked for that friend of Michelle with her scam IT company in Canada that got the ObamaCare website contract.
When it's not mandatory it's sexist, but when it's mandatory it's sexist to disagree.
Very simple.
This was helpful to me. Thank you.
"Anyway, I guess the new thing is to hand the kids off to teenagers to baby sit your kids, while you go to work and complain about milk shooting out of your breasts because the damn receipt of the product is 40 miles away in the suburbs, with a teenager glued to her smart phone and texting her boyfriend or sexual predator friend."
Speaking of retrograde attitudes, child care jobs are low status and low wage and primarily staffed by women. Where are the feminists? If child care work were better paid and offered a jumping off point for other careers, a mother could keep an unbroken work history and time with a young child.
Glued to a smart phone is a reality, so any benefits gained through breastmilk are offset by the child care worker's dedication. Room for pumping is the least of problems.
I accidentally walked in on a new mom pumping in her cubicle. There really needs to be some sort of small accommodation.
I have seen milk stains on the expensive blouse of one of the new mommies (Harvard-PHD in Stats).
For Titus, if he is really interested:
-Babies don't make any sound when breast feeding. I didn't use a pump. Tried one of the old-fashioned kind with the glass and the rubber bulb and it hurt like hell.
-Nipples can become chapped and sore. There are special creams you can use.
-I never tasted my own milk so I don't know.
-Yes, you can squirt it at someone--but maybe not across the room.
Titus said...
I have seen milk stains on the expensive blouse of one of the new mommies (Harvard-PHD in Stats).
8/4/17, 3:42 PM
Assumes facts not in evidence...
Blogger Titus said...
"Do pumps make noise similar to when a baby is a sucking on a tit? Are pumps painful? Does a women's tits become raw and chapped when they are pumping and when a baby is sucking her off?"
The pumps make a noise. I don't understand how anyone could be threatened by that noise.
The pumps were less painful for my wife than the kid was. Especially after teeth came out. It was not pumping/feeding that was painful.
See? When it's not mandatory it's sexist, but when it's mandatory it's sexist to disagree.
Very simple.
Yes, everything not prohibited is mandatory.
And this is the side that says it is in favor of "choice".
I don't understand the need for accommodation. I chose to have a baby and I chose to nurse him for a year. My firm didn't need to make it easy for me, as long as they didn't throw up obstacles.
Also, there are times your milk will let down unexpectedly. Especially if there are crying infants around. It can happen anywhere/anytime. Luckily for me, I was usually wearing a suit jacket.
The place where I worked moved into a very up-to-date building a few years ago. Up-to-date as in the exterior walls for all offices are glass, so no privacy. This presented a dilemma to the moms who needed a bit of privacy. They found a conference room next to the elevators that had real walls that could be reserved for them and placed a sign "LACTATION ROOM" on the door. It actually took a couple of days before the sign was replaced with a less TMI substitute.
I agree totally with poster 'reader'
I don't understand the need for accommodation. I chose to have a baby and I chose to nurse him for a year. My firm didn't need to make it easy for me, as long as they didn't throw up obstacles.
exiledonmainstreet said...
You don't know much about the Industrial Revolution. Married women certainly did work in Victorian factories. I don't think any accommodation was made for them, and no, I do not think that was a good thing. I don't know how they managed but somehow they did.
Hell, most times the kids were working right along side mom on the line back then. Maybe that's the solution! Bring back child labor! The little bastards have had it too good, too long!
Achilles said...
"I don't understand how anyone could be threatened by that noise."
I don't believe the woman complaining felt threatened by the sound of the breast pump. I believe that Darrell had the right take on the situation.
Reason #475 every, single one of my 'employees' are independent contractors.
Hiring employees is an invitation to insanity. This post - and the comments - prove it.
My business exists to make a profit. Deal with your personal crap on your personal time. We'll both make money and be a lot happier about it.
Breast feeding is acceptable in public, why not breast pumping? In other words, if no space is provided, pump at your cubicle desk or in meetings. The Huffington Post covered this in 2009.
Thanks to Obamacare -- meaning the US taxpayer - aren't breast pumps free?
My Mom, who was a welder for 25 years building railroad cars, worked everyday alongside the men, and also raised four kids, yet she somehow avoided being traumatized by this terrible transgression on her very being. She was probably distracted by the need to do a good job in a competitive environment where she actually did do the same work as the men for the same pay without needing special accommodations. She was a real feminist proving and living her equality - not just posing while demanding it as some kind of participation trophy.
"Reason #475 every, single one of my 'employees' are independent contractors."
Which should be how we all work, but it's pretty much illegal in most cases.
I'm still struggling to understand why it should be the employer's problem that one of their workers chose to pop some spawn out of their uterus. Stay at home until the spawn can look after themselves. Be grateful that the government forces the employer to pay you multiple months of salary even though you're sitting at home contributing nothing to the employer's bottom line and are 50/50 likely to quit once the employer benefits are exhausted - and all the while your non-spawn producing colleagues in the office are covering for your giant absent ass.
But apparently that's not enough, you need a private milking room too when you deign to return to work. And everyone who doesn't have a uterus or hasn't produced spawn needs to cover for you while you deal with your brood point forward. Okay.
My Mom, who was a welder for 25 years building railroad cars, worked everyday alongside the men, and also raised four kids,
They didn't have automatic, efficient breast pumps a generation ago. Now you can get duel pump, electric or battery operated stuff.
The WW2 generation was urged to formula feed. It's a lot easier to work outside the home for 8 hours a day and get the baby fed if you don't need to get breastmilk into the baby.
Now-a-days women are urged to breast feed. Pregnant women are told breast milk will keep the kids from getting sick because of immunity protection. It's treated almost like medicine, not an alternative food source.
They didn't work in factories or offices. Most married women were told to resign. In the fields, they either leaked or had the baby on their backs or next to them in a basket or blanket on the ground and fed them ad lib.
Not necessarily. Maybe that was your story if you were middle class and in an urban, female-centric occupation. My great-grandmother worked on a farm in the morning, and then went home, cleaned up, and worked at a factory until midnight. She had a house full of kids.
Most of the babies I talk to on line or at the local watering whole say that breast milk sucks anyway, and sometimes it taste like garlic, onions, or asparagus. Occasionally all three together. They do voice an appreciation for the taste of Chardonnay on Friday nights.
...worked everyday alongside the men, and also raised four kids
When we moved to the suburbs in 57, there was already some older homes out there built in the 30's and 40's. They all had large acreages.
One of these was the Brown family. Both parents worked in the lumber mill.
These four kids were like cavemen. Always in trouble. "Raised" probably wouldn't be the word I would choose. I know girls in grade school never climbed the monkey bars if they were around, as they were always looking under their dresses.
I am woman, hear me whine...
A pump room is one of their basic civil rights!!
Can men who self-identify as female use the facilities? What about women who are selling their breast milk, and not using it for their own children?
Do u deplorable know what ghosting is?
Mmmmmmmm....... breat milk......[Homer Simpson-like drool]
But seriously, now I know why this post has an employment discrimination tag: breasts leaking milk during a business meeting is a form of unwelcome sexually charged activity and thus constitutes a hostile work environment against men.
Titus, Finally a profile pick with some hair. Please do not talk that lover into shaving his nuts.
"...they were always looking under their dresses."
Creepy heteronormative shorties like that should be taken away and neutered. My mom would stop by the house once a week to show us stuff like how to look up dresses without without getting caught. Most guys learn this skill early on, and women marry or try to marry almost every one us.
> employment discrimination
No wonder the employment relationship is dieing in the US
in favor of the gig economy and offshore workforce.
Every conlaw prof sees another chance to load more responsibility on the hapless employer - from minimum wage and health care to breast pump rooms and paid time family time.
HR laws fill an entire shelf, and are updated constantly by the White Rabbits.
These laws have a subjective standard like "hostile work environment".
Just wait till the SJWs enter the workforce!
The restroom is the best place because it is the cleanest, most often disinfected place. Employers should be nice about it. The situation is temporary.
and then everyone clapped
While I concur 100% with the "have a few kids ASAP *then* career" advice (as long as it's an option, not a mandate), I won't complain about intelligent women (the ones most drawn to a wasted work-first life) being offered enticements to have a baby.
Childless women are predictably resentful of the sympathetic characters that are breast-feeding women.
But the laws can go pump themselves.
Feste said...
“ .. What did new mothers do about pumping breast milk 100 years ago? ..”
Canned Carnation condensed. Process goes way back.
Who doesn't remember?
Carnation milk is best of all,
No tits to pull, no shit to haul;
No buckets to wash, no hay to pitch,
Just poke a hole in the son-of-a-bitch!
Final Solution: don't hire women.
As noted in a few comments above, women who really want to work, and provide for themselves and a family, will find a way to manage both personal and professional life. All without putting the burden on their employer.
In addition, a lot of companies make accommodations for their - good - employees without the rule of law.
When you make laws that force employers to accommodate protected groups, simply because of the existence of the law is a reason to not hire them in the first place. Laws have consequences which may be a polar opposite of the intent of the law.
As far as I'm concerned, motherhood, vs. a "job," is a promotion. Oh yay, instead of suckling your young and playing with their toes and teaching them about Grandmama from the old country, let Inez do it while you push paper in an office. That's one for the history books.
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