One of the teenagers, using an expletive, calls Mr. Dunn a junkie. Someone tells him not to expect any assistance: “Ain’t nobody going to help you, you dumb bitch. You shouldn’t have got in there,” he says.The police have identified the 5 cruel teenagers, but...
About a minute into the video, the man appears to let out a whimper before submerging, fully, underwater. “He just died!” a voice can be heard saying, as the others begin to laugh.
"In the state of Florida, there is no law in place that requires a person to render aid or call to render aid to a victim in distress..."...Did the boys even have the ability to rescue the man? You could die trying to rescue a person. It's not surprising that the law doesn't require rescue. Such a law could cause more people to die. Imagine standing on the bank of a raging river thinking I'd better jump in there and give it a go or I'll be sent to prison.
As for the laughing and what the boys said, the law can't and shouldn't do anything. I haven't heard the recording, and I assume it's very disturbing, but I don't know that the boys are monsters. They happen to witness a person struggling and they decide that they cannot or will not help and they must deal with their predicament. They talk to the man. What they say is crude, but it communicates a truth to the man. They will not help him. And they struggle to explain why: He shouldn't have gone in there. They laugh in the end when he goes under. I haven't heard the laughing. But it could be anxiety, shock, and denial.
The boys may nevertheless be charged with a crime. The authorities are threatening to charge them under this statute, which imposes, in some circumstances, a duty to report that a death has occurred. I think they're grasping for a way to punish these boys for their speech and their laughter.
पोस्ट्स
१७१ टिप्पण्या:
The very least they should've done is call 911.
They have a cell phone but didn't call 911?
Duty to aid is also put off by danger of being sued if you cause harm in aiding, which is in fact likely.
Reminded me of the Seinfeld finale. The failure to act, in the absence of a duty to do so, is not actionable.
You wouldn't want it any other way.
Provided you live in a society based on Judaeo-Christian principles.
It's always a good idea to punish teenaged boys.
That was the mistake in Lord of the Flies.
Still they had to be good all day in school and letting off steam is a relief.
It's not a proper recess period if you don't beat sometbody up.
This may be the oddest post I've ever seen from Professor Althouse.
I'd be interested to hear some reason why all of this was mere "speech" and not criminal behavior. I am willing to listen, whenever somebody of Althouse's caliber has a good argument against any overuse of the criminal law or overcriminalization of ordinary behavior.
But these kids are indeed monsters. Even if they are not criminals, they are young monsters.
What sort of perverted subculture produced these monsters. One good thing about criminal charges, even if they are mere misdemeanors is that it puts these monsters in front of their community, names and all.
The kids have speech rights, and may be free to laugh at a drowning man. I think I'd likewise have free speech rights to tell these little monsters what subhuman bastards they are.
Residents of Kenilworth IL say to poor starving homeless transients "Ain’t nobody going to help you, you dumb bitch. You shouldn’t have got in there, you poor you starve. No Welfare!"
For cases like these, we need to return to outlawry, that is, a declaration that the person is now outside the protection of the law. If they are attacked, the police will not come. If they are injured, EMTs and an ambulance will not arrive. If their house is on fire, the fire department will not intervene. If they are in any need of assistance, none will be given.
We have an obligation under the social compact. But by their actions rejecting those obligations, such people have placed themselves outside of civilized society.
We need a lot more "you reap what you sow" to regulate social behavior.
It is possible that they could also be charged with respect to the filming.
I watched and listened to the video and they are scum.
In the military, which would never touch those creeps, you do have an obligation to do something.
IN civilian life, there is no law that I am aware of.
The victim is black. The town of Cocoa, FL is 32% black. Judging by the vocabulary, the kids were black as well.
I'm pretty sure this doesn't fit the Black Lives Matter narrative.
Not only no call but the death went unreported for five days while the family and authorities searched in vein. I do believe they are monsters.
Don't charge them.
Just publish/broadcast/upload their names and faces.
I thought they would be black, seems to be me that there are a lot of psychopaths among the blacks.
"Teenagers." "Boys." Hmm. Am I missing something?
I agree that this is not criminal. But not calling 911 is chilling. The thing about which I wonder is is this monstrous behaviour something new, or do cell phones just reveal a darkness that was always there but until recently hidden.
You can't punish someone for not risking their lives to save another person.
Sorry.
I know. Bad form and all that.
BTW, there's no one more callous than a teenage boy. Death is what happens to other people. Its like what Mel Brooks said (paraphrase):
Comedy is when someone else slips on a banana peel and breaks their back. Tragedy, when I develop a hang nail.
I don't know that the boys are monsters.
They appear to be well on their way.
As for calling 911. Assuming they weren't involved in some sort of criminal behavior, they were probably too dumb to think of it.
So, pubish their names and photos. They don't deserve the cloak of anonymity for their actions.
Don't arrest them - an arrest record could hurt their employment chances on a Death Panel if Obamacare doesn't die. With so many laughs to be had, it would not seem like work.
"It's always a good idea to punish teenaged boys."
They're often beyond morality - but punishment they understand.
"So, pubish their names and photos. They don't deserve the cloak of anonymity for their actions."
I agree. But that sort of thing works better with teenage GIRLS.
Hmm, how will the media play this hand. It'll be hard to label it racist since it looks like black all around. Can't be guns - since none were involved. It could be "Can you believe redneck cracker Florida has no laws against this sort of thing." That may be the best they can do, unless there is a Trump healthcare angle that the poor deceased should have been covered by single payer for his mental illness - and that bastard Trump stood in the way.
Black lives matter, but only if whitey or a cop can be blamed.
Like Michael Brown, they are good kids.
"I'd be interested to hear some reason why all of this was mere "speech" and not criminal behavior."
The question isn't were they bad. There needs to be a statute that defines what they did as a crime and that would apply generally. There's not duty to rescue or to call for help under Florida law.
Ann--How can you comment or make a defense of the boys without hearing the tape???
What is very disturbing is the lack of any care or concern, the absence of any empathy in the face of a death occurring before their eyes and that the group of them could easily prevent. Most of us feel and express more when a sparrow flies into a window.
The response of the boys is psychopathological. You should know better.
They're often beyond morality - but punishment they understand.
Bring back public flogging.
Where does the line on responsibility to act end? These kids are awful.
But.
While this kind of callousness is common around the world it is obviously abnormal here in the US. In this country you are, or were, expected to do more.
How are/were we different as a country? If you polled most people around the world this would seem normal. Especially in Asia... Be a pedestrian in Asia and tell me this isn't true.
But lately it seems something has changed in our culture to make us more like the rest of the world. Specifically the role of public education in the formation of our youth.
Children are the product of the culture that raises them.
I post this in hopes we can do better on this thread than discuss doxxing a bunch of kids so they can get beat up or whatever. We need to focus our rage at the parents and people running our schools and churches and music/movie culture.
Is there any law preventing their names and photos from being published?
You know, goose/gander
I was just thinking about that Dennis Hopper movie in connection with he sex robots post. It's "River's Edge."
I am not for doxxing them, but they sure as hell would be doxxed if they were white.
First of all, the teens were monstrously callous, showing a depraved indifference to a drowning man. They should be ashamed, as should their parents.
However, to play devil's advocate: In Florida, any sizable body of water such as a pond has a very good chance of having an alligator in it. There's a very good chance that the black teens don't know how to swim. It's apparent from listening to the video that the victim drowned quickly and would have been dead long before help could arrive even if they had called 911. And since they were at the park smoking marijuana, calling 911 would just have gotten them involved with the police, which they obviously didn't want to happen, and you can't call 911 anonymously.
"As for calling 911. Assuming they weren't involved in some sort of criminal behavior, they were probably too dumb to think of it."
Some people just don't call 911. It's calling the cops, the enemy. It would be harsh to turn that into a crime. You need to inspire voluntary participation from citizens, like what that white lady in Minneapolis did.
Judge Smails was right.
"Ann--How can you comment or make a defense of the boys without hearing the tape???"
I state my opinion with the express caveat that I have not watched.
I have a moral scruple against watching a snuff film.if I were on a jury and had a duty to watch, I would. Otherwise I think it's wrong to watch.
I have never watched any of the on line videos showing beheadings. I don't want that image in my head and if I did, I would take the trouble to suppress it. I think watching is wrong.
And while it doesn't mention that the teens were smoking dope in the NYT version of the story, it does in the Florida Today story that goes into greater detail.
Saving the drowning is a courageous act that risks one's own life out of goodness.It's Reaganesque. It's Boy Scout's Duty. It's loving your neighbor. You don't really have time to think beyond a few seconds. The Air Florida Jet that crashed in DC into an icy Potomac River was a good example of men using that innate courage.
But watching these teenagers reaction exposes a big reason most Black folks want to live among white folks.
You could die trying to rescue a person.
I pray that I try anyway, should the time come.
Did the boys even have the ability to rescue the man? You could die trying to rescue a person. It's not surprising that the law doesn't require rescue.
Two words: "cellphone" and "911". But these sociopaths were to busy recording themselves making fun of the man as he drowned.
As for the laughing and what the boys said, the law can't and shouldn't do anything.
Perhaps not. Were I a male relative of the man who died, I certainly would. Hell were I a member of the family of one of the sociopaths, I would.
I think they're grasping for a way to punish these boys for their speech and their laughter.
Somebody needs to. Their behavior violates the social bond, and is a good indication that they would be willing to violate it in other ways, such as crime.
The comment up above that I wish I had written was to the effect that they had a cellphone with which to take video, but did not use it to call authorities. wtf.
I wouldn't expect everybody to jump in to attempt a rescue. So I am not going to presume any duty to "rescue." Florida does have a statute creating a legal duty to report a vehicular accident. It's the willful, video-recorded failure to notify anybody that gets me.
Prosecuting these teens for failing to report a death seems like a modest prosecutorial response. It was at least that.
The story is appalling . The boys were/are so callous. In retrospect though they should not have sacrificed their own lives to save a man who deliberately put himself in danger. In order to cover up their discomfort, trash talking is quite human. However the lack of making a call later is very bad.
No they should not be doxxed or charged just because they showed a lack of courage
To save the man these boys are only 14-16 and not the same size or strength They may not know how or are poor swimmers There may be alligators in there. Saving a drowning person is not easy. They tend to pull the person trying to save them down and drown both.
I didn't listen to the tape. The apparent lack of empathy -- that aligns with a belief that life is not sacred.
I will say this: In uncomfortable situations, some people do joke, and laugh. Also, the behavior of a group of people can be far different from the behavior of a single person. Each one of the boys, alone, perhaps may have tried to help. (Or not -- if they are monsters).
I prefer to think that these kids can improve. Maybe I'm kidding myself.
I watched and listened. The kids aren't interested at all, except for the yuk-yuks. They're watching a man drown and their only reaction is, hey, isn't this f'in' hilarious? A man's drowning! Check it out!
This is simply obscene.
I haven't watched the beheading of Daniel Pearl, nor any of ISIS' numerous Greatest Hits. This one I made an exception for, because it was made in America and, God help us, for Americans.
Some people just don't call 911. It's calling the cops, the enemy. It would be harsh to turn that into a crime.
As harsh as laughing as you watch someone drown?
Some people just don't call 911. It's calling the cops, the enemy. It would be harsh to turn that into a crime.
@Althouse, the world can be a harsh place. Get used to it.
You need to inspire voluntary participation from citizens, like what that white lady in Minneapolis did.
Which white lady is that? The one killed by the Somali-American affirmative action hire?
Like Althouse, I have never once watched any of the ISIS/beheading videos. I don't feel like I missed anything that would do me any good to have seen.
Unlike Althouse, I did search out and watch this video, and I would not have felt that I had a good feel for the situation if I hadn't.
I am going to give the Times a pass on their having not posted video. Although I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that if a black man had been drowning and the monstrous do-nothing onlookers had been white, that the Times would have posted all of it along with three now columns on the state of race relations.
Also; it looks like the Times disabled comments for this story.
We live in a culture today where human life is especially cheap. Thousands of men, women and children intentionally killed with malice each year in our cities. Meanwhile, other millions of young people, many minority, wholly expect that they will die young, perhaps by murder, or that they will suffer a kind of death by going to prison. And this lust for death is not only among the "lower" classes. Thousands more of elderly and infirm and others deemed useless are warehoused and neglected by "caregivers." Large proportions of the medical profession have embraced facilitating the death of people whose lives are deemed unworthy of living. Millions of innocent human beings are eagerly slaughtered before their birth with the sanction of the law.
All of these things add up. We have built up a culture of death.
Ideologies and pathologies have consequences.
"...three NEW columns..."
I pray that I try anyway, should the time come
There is a good chance you would.
I was a longterm substitute teacher at a middle school that took the entire 7th grade to the museums and beach in San Diego. The kids were allowed to go in the water, and at least half did. I was the only teacher in the water. Six kids, all of whom were chronic trouble makers I later discovered, got caught in a rip current and were trapped where the waves were breaking also. No one noticed but me, and I immediately swam out to them without thinking. All six grabbed on to me, and thank god I am a large man (buoyant), or I would not have been able to keep the seven of us up. The lifeguards eventually saw us and rescued all of us. They said I probably saved the life of at least a couple of the kids who were exhausted.
When I finally got the shakes and reacted, the scariest thing to me was that I didn't think about what I was doing, and instead just reacted.
Meanwhile in other news --
There is the story of the young mother who hang herself as part of some "dare" game.
We have become death, the destroyer of worlds.
What is the difference between these children and the adults who will not allow Charlie Gard to travel to America for treatment?
@Clyde,
However, to play devil's advocate: In Florida, any sizable body of water such as a pond has a very good chance of having an alligator in it. There's a very good chance that the black teens don't know how to swim. It's apparent from listening to the video that the victim drowned quickly and would have been dead long before help could arrive even if they had called 911. And since they were at the park smoking marijuana, calling 911 would just have gotten them involved with the police, which they obviously didn't want to happen, and you can't call 911 anonymously.
Yes, all this is true.
I'd like to add, in my experience with teen-age boys, & especially the black teen-age boys in the DC area, that sort of goofy bravado is default behavior when caught in an unfamiliar situation. It's like you never, ever show fear or concern, for such would be seen as a sign of weakness.
You have no idea how many times I've been out driving & some young black man will just step out boldly to cross against traffic. And you know what? He'll never look up the entire time! It's almost as if when he makes eye contact with a driver, the jig will be up. Hell, I'd look up & around when jaywalking just to make sure I don't get splattered by some clown who's looking at his cell phone & not the road. Not these guys.
And, yes, it gets them killed. In my county in suburban DC (Montgomery County, MD), each year more pedestrians are struck & killed by cars then there are victims of murder.
MadisonMan,
I will say this: In uncomfortable situations, some people do joke, and laugh.
Oh, yes. Yes, they do. You wouldn't believe the roars of laughter emanating from the audience at an Oakland showing of Schindler's List when the camp commandant casually picks up his revolver and shoots a random woman crossing the space in front of him. Again, f'in' hilarious. Did you see the way she just went right down? Yuk-yuk.
Ann Althouse said...
"Ann--How can you comment or make a defense of the boys without hearing the tape???"
I state my opinion with the express caveat that I have not watched.
I have a moral scruple against watching a snuff film.if I were on a jury and had a duty to watch, I would. Otherwise I think it's wrong to watch.
I have never watched any of the on line videos showing beheadings. I don't want that image in my head and if I did, I would take the trouble to suppress it. I think watching is wrong.
I just finished posting that I respect that general view. But about this video, I will say; you can watch the first few seconds, which only show a distant figure treading water. You may then simply listen to the rest of the video. I did that.
The only "image" that you will be left with, is the audio image of a bunch of thuggish, brutish, cruel black teenagers ridiculing a drowning man whom you cannot see or hear. I don't think you can appreciate the nature of this without listening to them.
There is a diabolic malevolence at play in the world.
The YMCA did a good job teaching Senior Life Saving back in the 1962 Buckhead Y. Final Exam was a deep end wrestling match with a 6'3'' 230 lbs man doing the drowning man drowning you act.
The lesson being taught by a bullying older Trainor was to know when to give up and save yourself. In other words, don't panic when clear thought is needed. (But I beat the SOB, much to his surprise. Wrestling does come in handy).
"All of these things add up. We have built up a culture of death."
Yep.
Chuck,
I am asking this out of genuine curiosity. You (and indeed everyone else commenting here and elsewhere) are taking it for granted that the five pot-smoking teens, so far not named, are black. I seem to recall forensic vocal experts arguing that there is no way to tell race from voices. I have to say that if I had to guess from the audio, I would say that they were black, but I don't know on what grounds.
A few weeks ago, a whole bunch of people on a beach formed a human chain, and they helped save a family from drowning in a rip-tide.
That, is normal. What these boys did - not normal.
Blue Whale Challenge.
Modern culture is playing. Our whole society is suffering a slow-motion suicide.
And they laughed.
If they didn't commit a crime - we can know their names, right?
Their punishment should be publicity.
The Mayor of Cocoa reminds me of Michael Dunn's Dr. Loveless character in "The Wild Wild West".
There's a new normal.
I am asking this out of genuine curiosity. You (and indeed everyone else commenting here and elsewhere) are taking it for granted that the five pot-smoking teens, so far not named, are black.
Do you believe for a second that if a group of White kids had laughed while a Black man drowned, that race wouldn't be the lead?
I would say that they were black, but I don't know on what grounds.
Can you imagine the outrage if they were white?....or let's put it this way, Al Sharpton ain't making his way to Florida.
"Did you kill him jus' cause he like ya? Just because he like ya?"
Rear Window
Liked with a d, liked with a d. As it were in "Rear Window" playing on AMC in the Best Western, a grand sort of hospitality, granted the pass.
@MDK,
I seem to recall forensic vocal experts arguing that there is no way to tell race from voices.
No, there isn't --- when the speaker is speaking in an unaccented voice.
But, there is a decided American east coast black accent. It's similar to a Southern black accent, because that's where those folks came from less than 75 years ago. Would those forensic experts say that there's no difference in speech between someone from Memphis & Yonkers?
The other thing that makes a black voice distinctive up north -- they enunciate from the chest like southerners do, as opposed to northerners who enunciate from the throat or nose (Try and do your best General Beauregard from the Carolinas vs a New York cabbie accent and you'll see what I mean about the chest vs higher up).
I'm a weird duck like that too. Although born & bred in Alabama, I have no Southern accent, but I enunciate from the chest like a Southerner. So, while most folks have no idea where I'm from, actors who have had vocal coaching can because of where I enunciate from.
Johnny Cash sang once in Grants Pass, most likely about shooting to death some sorry son-of-a-bitch just to watch him die.
Time tough, I'm Toots and the Maytols knew and know now.
Mark rightly assures us: There is a diabolic malevolence at play in the world.
Literally. "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Rev. 12:12
Last week, I watched the British cop show Cuffs. An old woman with dementia was walking down the RR track with a train on the way. The head cop told the 2 cops not to get on the tracks but stop the train. That failed, so one grabbed the woman at the last moment.
His bosses chewed him out.
A few weeks ago, a whole bunch of people on a beach formed a human chain, and they helped save a family from drowning in a rip-tide.
That, is normal. What these boys did - not normal.
7/21/17, 8:21<\ PM
ALAMEDA, Calif. --
Alameda police and firefighters stood by and watched as a man drowned off Crown Beach in Alameda on Monday. Authorities are now trying to explain why they had no choice but to stand on the shoreline.
Alameda police received a call shortly before noon on Monday from a woman saying her son wanted to kill himself. Raymond Zack, 53, then walked out into the water off Crown Beach.
"I thought it was kind of weird that they weren't going out to bring the guy in, you know, he was out there, his head was above water, he was looking at everybody, there was plenty of time for them to react," witness Perry Smith said.
For more than an hour, Zack stood up to his neck in the frigid surf off of Crown Beach in Alameda.
http://abc7news.com/archive/8161285/
@Bill, if you're still lurking, pay close attention to what tradionalguy wrote. Drowning people are dangerous, and if you've not been properly trained and in good physical shape, you're both going to die. I did my Red Cross lifesaving training more than fifty years ago, and the instructor emphasized that when you go in after someone you need to be certain that AT LEAST one of you comes out of the water alive.
@Bill, if you're still lurking, pay close attention to what tradionalguy wrote. Drowning people are dangerous
How do you get hurt in this situation by calling 911? Or at the very least telling his family where to find the body.
I'm a pretty good, strong swimmer. While never a lifeguard, I took many classes, and got my BSA merit badge, and swam some in college. I would like to think that given it was a pond / lake situation, rather than a river or moving water, I would make an attempt to bring the man in. I don't think the alligator angle or gambit enters into it. If you can get them calm and on their back, it should be possible to get them where their feet can get purchase.
Gahrie said..."I didn't think about what I was doing, and instead just reacted."
Heroism should be routine, it has become the exception. I would hope my decision would be snap too, even if I had time for thought; it would be that I could not live with the version of myself that failed to act. It may be that the youths did not know how to swim and has no means to personally help. If I was in that position, my mission in life from that day forward would be to learn to swim!
"Don't wait for the Last Judgment. It takes place every day."
Black people laugh while another black person dies. SJW Althouse pontificates. The painted ponies go up and down.
@Gahrie, read the first two comments on this thread. Note who wrote the second one.
RE: discerning race from voice-- this was a thing in the OJ Simpson trial. One of the witnesses said something like he heard a voice, and it sounded black. Johnny Cochran jumped into this and declared angrily that it was a ridiculous statement, that there was no such thing as a black voice.
Cochran said it in the deep voice of a black American with the classic black American accent.
I've been wondering about that ever since. I think there are tonal differences between races. Maybe it's mostly cultural, but I doubt that. James Earl Jones didn't just learn how to speak that way by growing up.
Similarly, most women have voices about an octave higher, on average, than most men. I'm talking primary pitch. Don't let me bore you with details; just hit me with gender stuff.
Some people can turn it on and turn it off. Eddie Murphy can sound any way he wants. It's a gift. We all adopt a tone and an accent at an early age, and most of us are not aware that we're doing that.
I'd prefer to punish their parents for this garbage existing.
I read a comment on another site that said the man was trying to commit suicide, changed his mind when he got in trouble, and the boys weren't moved.
That does add context, if true.
The kids are likely from the Pro-Choice Church. In following the Church's well established doctrine, they deemed the man's life unworthy. However, to their credit, they did not take affirmative action to abort his life.
That said, we are steered onto a clear and progressive slope by the "best and brightest".
I want to add that I'm very distressed to see the comments that raise a racial issue (or potential racial issue). I grew up in s small Midwestern quarry town, and the white teenagers among whom I grew up would have acted no differently. Well, except fifty-five years ago they wouldn't have had cellphones, they'd have been smoking cigarettes and not weed, and there was no 911, no Internet, no social media.
The same week a dog rescues a drowning deer
Animals - 1 People - 0
Don't call for help when a man is drowning.
Don't call for help when a woman is being raped.
Don't call for help when a child is being abducted.
Don't call for help when a baby is being aborted.
Keep Society Consistent.
I am Laslo.
I think there are tonal differences between races.
So you think that blacks who were born and raised in England sound like they are from the American South? Or that black Africans do as well?
Why are people trying to make this a race issue?
Remember when some teen-age girls convinced some poor Sod to walk across a frozen pond, and when he fell in, callously threw him in the trunk?
Guess what? They were white.
Based on the description from the go-fund-me page this event took place at a retaining pond surrounded by private homes.It looks like at least 20 houses have yards that back onto this pond. The teens could have ran 100 feet to try and get help - calling 911 was not the only option.
Florida is a third world country.
They can't even punch out a paper chad without help from Washington.
Dogs, monkeys have been known to rescue people in distress, to save their own. Russia Russia Russia. And yet this video is a peek at the real problem facing our country, what we once called our civilization, our culture. They are splashing random strangers with acid in the UK, laughing at the drowning here. We are so lost.
What can one expect from a pack of feral Dindu Nuffins?? Subhuman savagery of course.
Mark, that's an excellent question, and I've been listening for the answer.
My general assessment is that blacks born and raised in England have classic English accents...but they don't sound quite the same as their white compatriots. I think if you gave me and others a test to decipher racial origin according to strictly auditory clues, we'd get it right, much, perhaps not most, of the time. Maybe it's cultural even in London, but I doubt it.
I'm saying that race may have an affect on vocal tone, much as it does on skin color. How weird to even suppose that it could be possible!
That makes me a racist, I guess.
Keep Society Consistent
Exactly. The only vaccine, as it were, to mitigate development of a social disease, is to develop and follow principles that are internally, externally, and mutually consistent. The establishment of the Pro-Choice Church has set humanity on a progressive slope which will inevitably end with a dysfunctional convergence.
Name & shame them!
In the People vs OJ Simpson, Christopher Darden said there is a difference in timber and pitch. Cochrane tried to turn something obvious into racism.
I can almost always identify the singing voice of a black person. Phil Lynott being an exception -- but he was also Irish.
@LLR: "I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that if a black man had been drowning and the monstrous do-nothing onlookers had been white, that the Times would have posted all of it along with three now columns on the state of race relations." Exactly. That is the point some of us sarcastically alluded to in referring to the gentle wording about "boys" and teenagers"--which otherwise would have been identified in all identity-politics detail as needed. The silence is always telling.
Of course, the point is not that blacks are callous and whites aren't. Plenty of cruelty to go around, now and in days past.
"I think they're grasping for a way to punish these boys for their speech and their laughter."
I did watch and listen to the video. I detected no fear that harm might be incurred in a rescue attempt and no sense of anxiety, shock or denial. I believe you are right on what the law is and should be, but for these people it was just a big lark. Hey, we get to watch someone die, and what fun it is. Complete lack of empathy or concern.
This gave me a sense of why they find it so easy to shoot each other. The lives don't matter in a very literal sense.
Boys To Men
Sitrep: Keep the fucking law and CPS out of this. You’ll never get those bastards out of your hair.
1. Execute protocol: “Second Hand Lions” Field Maneuver
2. Garth: “Just a dumb kid, Hub. Don't kill him.”
3. Hood 1: “Let's show this old bastard who's tough! Get out your knives!”
4. Garth: “Now, boys, you're fixin' to let those teenage hormones get you into a world of trouble.”
5. Hub: “There's only four of 'em.”
6. Garth: “Well, look, look. You fight this one first, then I'll let you fight the other three after, okay?”
7. To Hood 1] “Now, you- you better pick that knife up. 'Cause, son, you're gonna need all the help you can get.
8. Postlude: offer the kids a ride home, apply raw steak, give ‘em the boys-to-men lecture. Bless and release.
I think there are tonal differences between races.
I've heard, though I don't know it to be true, that "honky" comes from blacks' perception of how white people talk (compared to blacks).
The idea that they should have tried to rescue the guy is not even worth discussing. We don't even know if they know how to swim, and yes, it's dangerous in any case. But not calling 911 is depraved. They didn't know how long the guy might struggle. So what if they were smoking weed.
However, to play devil's advocate: In Florida, any sizable body of water such as a pond has a very good chance of having an alligator in it. There's a very good chance that the black teens don't know how to swim. It's apparent from listening to the video that the victim drowned quickly and would have been dead long before help could arrive even if they had called 911. And since they were at the park smoking marijuana, calling 911 would just have gotten them involved with the police, which they obviously didn't want to happen, and you can't call 911 anonymously.
Probably what the conversation was like in the White House "war room" the night of the Benghazi attack.
Ah, I found it.
Boys To Men Lecture - True Love
“Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things that a man needs to believe in the most: that people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love, true love, never dies... No matter if they're true or not, a man should believe in those things because those are the things worth believing in.”
Channelling their inner Phil Collins.
Has conscience become a thing of the past, a concept not discussed, a word not uttered? An idea as foreign and outdated as sin? Would these feral children have a notion of rhis? A vestigial rememberance?
Big Mike, rcocean: I'm the only one here who has brought up the question of how we know these teenagers are black. A number of other commenters have assumed it. Do either of you think the question is irrelevant?
Meh, call it God or call it Karma, but its coming for these pieces of shit. Sounds like supernatural wishful thinking, I know, but I personally have never seen it fail to catch up with this kind of garbage.
Michelle Dulak Thomson
Any adult who has lived in the south can detect that the voices on the clip are those of blacks. One does not have to be a linguist to be
absolutely certain.
@Michelle, the race of the teenagers is certainly irrelevant to me.
Ann
The question is not, is watching wrong? The question is, is making excuses wrong if you don't watch? It is. There is no duty to blog, but I think there is some duty not to blog in deliberate ignorance. You make a great deal about being selective in what you blog, but chose to blog this knowing you would refuse to consider the only pertinent evidence.
The only hint I would pick up on that at least one kid was probably black was his choice of expression: "Ain't nobody going to help you". Ain't nobody is the clue. While there may be white people who say it that way, the only people I hear saying it are black.
And, again, it makes not a particle of difference what race these kids are. There are plenty of sociopaths in all races.
Ken B: The professor was just offering up some red meat so the racists and phony hero's would crawl out of their caves and show their disgusting underbellies. This blog is one big troll and the commentariat are the unwitting subjects of a psychopathology experiment.
“And, again, it makes not a particle of difference what race these kids are. There are plenty of sociopaths in all races.”
Thank you, TrueTurtle
Better than: Reeling and Writhing, of course ... and then the different branches of Arithmetic-- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision.
First thing, the DI's separated the whites from the blacks and browns. The whites were required to jump off the 2-meter platform while the darker green recruits were taken to the shallow end to rate the thrashers from the sinkers. As the training progressed, everyone ended up in the deep end. I remember watching the DI's laugh with glee as a black recruit stood at the bottom of the deep end of the tank trying to climb up the water. He was terrified. Every year or two the cruel bastards would wait too long and someone would drown. Ooh-Rah
This discussion isn't all blacks bad, all whites good. It's about the bias of the presentation of the facts, and how no one will be bothered to protest or do some community self reflection. but if the video psychopaths were white, there would likely be protests and a big media push of "look at how racist they all are".
Better than: Reeling and Writhing, of course ... and then the different branches of Arithmetic-- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision.
Thank you, Feste! ;-)
The law should not punish this behavior.
I am surprised to see the Professor seemingly defending the behavior, though.
A perceived lack of empathy on the part of hardcore libertarians when discussing a hypothetical (regarding possible racial bias or harm that could come about if the libertarians got their way vis a vis the Civil Rights act) was enough to produce tears! How much worse is the utter lack of empathy on display here, and yet the Professor signs up to advocate for the Devil.
”They talked to him?" Jesus that's disingenuous. They yelled insults at a man in distress--a dying man. Your speculation about the genesis and nature of their laughter is only possible because of your refusal to listen to the actual audio...but maybe take the word of those of us who have listened, OK? It is not nervous laughter; it sounds like genuine amusement at the suffering of another human being. "I choose not to listen so as far as I know any interpretation I come up with is plausible" is a bizarre mental/perceptual choice that I doubt you would credit in other situations (or accept from other people).
But let's get to a bigger problem no one had addressed. They filmed this, and preserved (and likely shared) the video!! You yourself, Professor, put this in the category of a "snuff film." Fine, but if people who make and distribute snuff films arent monsters, who is? If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say theory didn't set out to film a guy dying, OK, but after it happened (an event to which they reacted with amusement, remember) they were sufficiently undisturbed by the situation to preserve and share the video---including the audio of their own insults and laughter! Some of their peers apparently thought the video was funny or at least OK, too, since it spread for a while before someone informed the authorities.
But you "don't know" they're monsters. OK.
Shame and public ridicule are the blunt instruments by which teen agers and pop singers learn the basics of morality. If this was not just white on black but a white on white situation, the teenagers would be named and blamed. Since black kids are involved, the pundits will be exquisite in the calibration of their blame--and that's if it even gets discussed. If some pundit goes a little too far in his condemnation, his career is over. Best not to mention it......There are only a handful of black people who can be publicly criticized by the pundit class. They're mostly Republicans, but you can take a few digs at Bill Cosby and OJ Simpson. Mike Tyson and Michael Vicks are back on the protected list. I don't think these kids are in for a lot of public shaming. This will not be a fulcrum point in their lives, and they will not, in the future, pretend to be caring, Keeping it real.
Scenario:
Group of teenagers are hanging out on the roof of some building downtown. A woman at street level is attacked by a knife wielding man--she screams for help and yells that her boyfriend is stabbing and raping her. The teenagers yell back that they won't help and that it's the woman's fault for dating a crazy guy. She's killed and they film it all and laugh about it.
In that scenario, Professor, do you think any of us believe you would say "those teenagers talked to the woman and although it was crude they expressed a truth: the will not help her." Would you still excuse their not calling 911, or say the might not be monsters even though they filmed the attack and spread that footage around?
Would you invent a "struggle" on the part of the witnesses in that scenario, too? They struggle to explain why the won't help? What is the evidence for that struggle? You didn't listen to the audio so it can't be from that.
It looks like they're going to charge them with having knowledge of a death and failing to notify the medical examiner.
Morrison & Hooker - Serves Me Right To Suffer
... every time I see a woman, she make me think of mine ... oh Lord, I can’t lay down, inna bed to sleep, my nerves ... you should go see you’ doctor, yeah, instead your favorite nurse ... they way you goin’, just might make you worse ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdLz-Rr3Eho
Right on, Hoodlum. Totally agree. Yet ... so Ann is detached. That's her shtick. Let's not get worked up. Everyone else automatically offers the same obvious reaction we share.
Michael said...
Has conscience become a thing of the past, a concept not discussed, a word not uttered? An idea as foreign and outdated as sin? Would these feral children have a notion of rhis? A vestigial remembrance?
A lot of people on this thread are reacting as if it is the normal human condition to try to save the drowning man. It is not.
The natural reaction to risk all and try to save the man or at least show empathy for his situation by the average person in our society is extraordinary. Most americans are expected to act selflessly. This was one of those things that made our country great. Very few countries in the world valued life as highly as we once did.
This video is proof to many of us our country is losing something. Something Great. We want to return something we have lost. MAGA is not just political.
Cocoa Police Chief Michael Cantaloupe
Poor man.
Bullshit. They're sociopathic scum. They didn't call for help, they didn't tell anyone the guy was dead, they laughed as he begged for help while he went under and the police said not one of them had a scintilla of remorse. This time they were bystanders. In due time they'll be proactive sociopathic scum.
I did listen to the audio part, and it is clear these are budding sociopaths.
I'd be interested to hear some reason why all of this was mere "speech" and not criminal behavior.
How can a random person doing nothing be criminal behavior? It's not like they were cops or lifeguards.
I'll never understand why people think every shitty thing one person can do (or not do) to another must be a crime. Yes, they're terrible people. So what?
SukieTawdry said...
Bullshit. They're sociopathic scum. They didn't call for help, they didn't tell anyone the guy was dead, they laughed as he begged for help while he went under and the police said not one of them had a scintilla of remorse. This time they were bystanders. In due time they'll be proactive sociopathic scum.
OK. These are 14-16 year old boys. Whose fault is it that they acted this way?
They acted like 14-16 year old boys all around the world would have acted. This is how humans naturally act when someone outside the tribe is in trouble. In most cases in this situation it would not be out of the ordinary for the kids to throw him in.
It takes something special to make them act differently. Most humans never get past fear of punishment on the moral spectrum.
We should be looking at parents, schools, churches, role models. Going after the kids does not solve the problem. If people truly want to solve the problem they will focus on solutions that will work.
I agree with Althouse- there is no law broken here.
As for the race of the teenagers, it is a safe guess that they are all black by simple deduction based on the fact that not one story I read about the event mentioned the race of the teenagers- only the race of the drowning victim. I think it overwhelmingly obvious that if the teenagers were white, you not only would have learned that in the very first article, but you probably would already know all their identities and addresses.
Since the Supreme Court has ruled the police have no duty to protect, I don't know how they're going to charge, on the other hand, a teenage citizen does.
Whoever the man was, he has heirs. Before he died, the man owned a cause of action for, among other things, intentional infliction of emotional distress (an element of which is conduct outside the realm of decency that would prompt a reasonable person to proclaim "Outrageous!"). His heirs now own that cause of action. The boys should be prosecuted civilly and their earnings ruthlessly garnished for the rest of their lives.
"As for the laughing...I haven't heard the recording, and I assume it's very disturbing, but I don't know that the boys are monsters. They happen to witness a person struggling and they decide that they cannot or will not help and they must deal with their predicament. They talk to the man. What they say is crude, but it communicates a truth to the man. They will not help him. And they struggle to explain why: He shouldn't have gone in there. They laugh in the end when he goes under. I haven't heard the laughing. But it could be anxiety, shock, and denial."
Wow.
There's a poem by Stevie Smith called "Not Waving But Drowning". A man goes too far out in the cold water. His heart gives way, and he starts to drown. He waves for help, but the people on the shore think he's larking and just wave back...... This situation here seems just the reverse. It's the kids on the shore who have gone too far out and whose hearts have given out. They live in cold waters. If they themselves lose buoyancy for just a moment, they will go under and their friends will not be of assistance. They live in a harsh world, but it's one they made.
Noted ... No response to my Question?? Above.
Parents of child Garth are prevented from doing all they can for their child by the authorities in their country.
Here the discussion is about punishing children who caused no harm except bruising the feelz of some people.
Every culture produces its monsters and normals.
On what basis do we distinguish them, unless we are willing to apply that standard to all aspects of the cultures?!
How wide and deep is the chain of causation?
We are witnessing cultural decay via advanced physical technology, and deficient intellection. I.e. philosophy.
"The boys should be prosecuted civilly and their earnings ruthlessly garnished for the rest of their lives."
Dream on. Never going to happen.
I need to be clear ... Technology did not cause the decay, it only makes the decay more easily viewable.
Though the deficient intellection permeates entire cultures.
Multiculturalism is the willful denial to identify monsters and normals.
As Rand put it earlier in 'Fountainhead' ... If you enshrine mediocrity you will have destroyed all shrines.
Today we see that politico/academia is insistently persistent about blurring standards that people need to achieve a successful life.
How will their community respond? Will they acknowledge that this is symptomatic of a bigger problem? I think that's the biggest question.
"exhelodrvr1 said...
How will their community respond? Will they acknowledge that this is symptomatic of a bigger problem? I think that's the biggest question."
Hahahaha Good one.
"How will their community respond?"
Community problem? Substitute "culture" for community and you will find yourself inching closer to identifying the problem.
Look no further than the Project Veritas videos of Planned Parenthood selling body parts of babies. Was there an outcry? Nope, a yawn.
"As for the laughing...I haven't heard the recording, and I assume it's very disturbing, but I don't know that the boys are monsters. They happen to witness a person struggling and they decide that they cannot or will not help and they must deal with their predicament. They talk to the man. What they say is crude, but it communicates a truth to the man. They will not help him. And they struggle to explain why: He shouldn't have gone in there. They laugh in the end when he goes under. I haven't heard the laughing. But it could be anxiety, shock, and denial."
I'm fine with not charging them with a crime, or calling them criminals.
But this is racism in the same way you say the idea of white privilege and complaints about "white males" is racism. Some people are just not expected to perform well at life-- they can't be held to societal standards.
It Takes a Village. *cough*
This case also calls to mind the story about the
Italian sunbathers
I should add, the Italian sunbather story was a bit exaggerated. They actually rescued two of the four Roma children who were drowning.
Why do we celebrate the "heroes" who risk their lives to save others? It is not because it is expected of society and therefore a normal and routine element of our way of life.
Something like that could hardly be considered "newsworthy".
No, we celebrate them because they could have chosen to stay out of harm's way, and yet decided otherwise. We celebrate them because they had a choice, not because they acted in accordance with the only path society gave them.
Just thinking that the name of one who would not hesitated to have saved the drowning man is Zeus. And he is just a rent-a-dog.
The racial difference is not the causation here, only a correlation. It is the Culture that matters. For instance, a Catholic would have jumped in to make this rescue, especially a short Sicilian Catholic.
Which brings to mind Anthony Scaramouche to the rescue.
Is this what W meant when he used the phrase, "The soft bigotry of low expectations"??
Achilles, if that is how all 16 year old boys would have acted, how do you explain how 18 year old boys acted on D-Day?
"Bullshit. They're sociopathic scum. They didn't call for help, they didn't tell anyone the guy was dead, they laughed as he begged for help while he went under and the police said not one of them had a scintilla of remorse. This time they were bystanders. In due time they'll be proactive sociopathic scum."
I basically agree with that assessment. However, there are costs associated with helping people in need. Even taking the time to call 911 is a cost though a very minimal one. Ridicule and shaming is underused these days. Trump once published a full-page ad to go after some black kids who committed some crime; He's a well-know shame artist, scam artist and sociopath in my opinion. There is nothing artistic about Trump's bad behavior or in the awful behavior of those stinking kids. You should pay a price when you hurt someone directly or indirectly.
Howard claims his military trainers routinely let trainees drown, and he finishes with an uhrah. Howard is a liar who I doubt ever served in our military, a sham.
I was involved in this type of training as a trainee and a trainer. Yes trainers would let people struggle S part of the learning, but never to the point of watching someone in their charge drown. Your're a phony, Howard.
As for Ann's reaction, what nonsense. Listen to the tape or not, but don't give an ignorant assessment when you refuse to listen to the evidence. Not up to your usual standards, ma'am.
The whole point of individuals coming together in civil society is to better provide safety and security and for their mutual benefit. In doing so, they form a social compact. And this social compact is primordial to any man-made civil laws.
One has a social, moral and natural obligation to come to the aid of another in distress. And if one finds that doing so might be too dangerous, they at least have the obligation to assist in the degree possible, and in any event to not mock and laugh at and add to the person's misfortune. You have an obligation -- regardless of what the civil "law" says -- to do the right thing, to do good and avoid evil, to not be an anti-social psychopathic asshole.
And the idea and mindset, no doubt held by them -- and even advanced here -- of "it's not my problem" is abhorrent to any notion of not only civilized society, but is abhorrent to humanity itself. Society is inherently interactive and interdependent, with people inherently obligated to contribute. If you think that you have -- or should have -- absolute autonomy, try living one day without the assistance of others. Others who have built your house, woven your clothing, grown and transported your food.
Without the social compact, we would all be out there "naked and afraid."
"You need to inspire voluntary participation from citizens, like what that white lady in Minneapolis did."
Are you kidding me with this? What kind of trolling is this? How did that work out for her?
Achilles, the people you've known throughout your life must be far different from the people I've known. I can't imagine any of the boys I knew in my teens behaving like this. They would have been in the pond trying to save the guy. At the very least, they would have gone for help (no cell phones back in the day). And all the men I count as friends today would have done the same as teens. I'm sorry for you.
The man committed suicide, more or less. He jumped in a lake, probably a weedy, muddy, marshy, gator-and-snake-infested lake in Florida. The youths were too far to reach him in time to save him, and EMTs would have been even later.
"It'll be hard to label it racist since it looks like black all around."
No, that's the easiest thing in the world to do, and they do it every time. After all, the media made George Zimmerman a white racist, and Jeronimo Yanez a latino acting white. No Blacks involved means the story will be about the racist reaction to the video.
Had there been similar videos, laughing, calling him a dumb bitch niggah, when Michael Brown went down for the count, what would we be calling them?
> I think they're grasping for a way to punish these boys for their speech and their laughter.
Hate crime, anyone?
Why giving them this pass? It wasn't a binary choice, do nothing or plunge into the water. They had a phone. Could have called for help. Could have requested others to call for help. Could have texted someone to call for help. Could have called a parent to call for help. Just because something isn't legally mandated doesn't mean they get a pass in judgment. Why should they get a pass on any law about reporting a death because its not illegal to help someone dying?
What the kids did was not illegal and they should not be prosecuted for anything. Never the less what they did was abhorrent. There is a middle way. Many years ago (don't ask) I was taken on as a Jack-of-all on a pleasure yacht. I did everything they didn't want to do (a pretty good gig by the way). On day everyone went ashore but one woman. She decided to join and jumped in the ocean and immediately began to flounder. I was watching and immediately called out that I was watching and she would be ok. She calmed down, I swam out NEAR her (but out of arms reach), and talked to her as she swam into shore. I NEVER had to touch her. (And yes push comes to shove I knew what to do if talking did not work, that was one of the things for which I was hired, but those are the last resort).
The boys could have tried to calm the man down assuring him that they were looking for help (and actually going for someone who did know what they were doing). Many drownings never happen because the person is encouraged not to panic.
1. Accents are cultural. Plenty of us know black kids raised by white adoptive parents, or Asian kids raised by white adoptive parents. Close your eyes, and you can't tell the adoptive kid from the white kid next door.
2. Swimming is a skill taught and possessed by individuals, not by races. In Japan, it was long believed that black people were all good swimmers, and highly favored by the water spirits -- because the first African heritage guy in modern Japan was a black sailor who was an exceptional swimmer. Black people who grow up in rural areas and do a lot of fishing often can swim like fish; black people who grow up in urban areas without getting to go to pools often cannot swim. And you can watch a lot of National Geographic specials showing African folks in Africa, swimming. (Wherever they can figure out a way not to get bothered by hippos or crocs, etc.)
3. However, there is nothing wrong with saying that an accent is characteristic of a black cultural group, just like there's nothing wrong with saying it's Northern Cities, or whatever accent it may be. The thing about an ethnic group's cultural accent is that the overwhelming number of people using it will be (genetically, if that matters) members of that ethnic group as well as (socially) members of its culture.
Get enough awful people in one place and the rest of us drown in them/. New York, Baltimore, LA, Seattle, San Francisco...
From a government perspective, a duty to rescue would be unjust on both practical and philosophical grounds.
But as a private citizen, if I saw someone employing a bit of frontier justice on these kids, I would perhaps be little slow in honoring my own internal sense of a duty to rescue.
These kids should seriuosly consider going out and beating a neighborhood watch volunteer's head into the pavement or rob a store then attack a poleman in oder to try to get the media on their side.
Karma is a bitch. Don't cross her.
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