Personal space is highly variable, and can be due to cultural differences and personal experiences. For example, the cultural practices of the United States show considerable similarities to those in northern and central European regions, such as Germany, the Benelux, Scandinavia, and the United Kingdom. Greeting rituals tend to be the same in Europe and in the United States, consisting of minimal body contact—often confined to a simple handshake. The main cultural difference in proxemics is that residents of the United States like to keep more open space between themselves and their conversation partners (roughly 4 feet (1.2 m) compared to 2 to 3 feet (0.6–0.9 m) in Europe). European cultural history has seen a change in personal space since Roman times, along with the boundaries of public and private space.... On the other hand, those living in densely populated places likely have lower expectations of personal space. Residents of India or Japan tend to have a smaller personal space than those in the Mongolian steppe, both in regard to home and individual spaces. Different expectations of personal space can lead to difficulties in intercultural communication.I'm reading this entry in Wikipedia because it relates to a long, wide-ranging conversation I was having with Meade. Feel free to discuss the proxemics of whatever you want.
Hall notes that different culture types maintain different standards of personal space. The Francavilla Model of Cultural Types, also known as The Lewis Model, lists the variations in personal interactive qualities, indicating three poles:
linear-active cultures, which are characterized as cool and decisive (Germany, Norway, USA)Realizing and recognizing these cultural differences improves cross-cultural understanding, and helps eliminate discomfort people may feel if the interpersonal distance is too large ("stand-offish") or too small (intrusive).
reactive cultures, characterized as accommodating and non-confrontational (Vietnam, China, Japan), and
multi-active cultures, characterized as warm and impulsive (Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Italy).
१ नोव्हेंबर, २०१६
Proxemics.
"Proxemics is the study of human use of space and the effects that population density has on behaviour, communication, and social interaction...."
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rats seem to be ok with no distance whatsoever
"Proxemics" looks like a shining example of bullshit. No doubt there is some "science-y" stuff there, in terms of observing greeting rituals and preferred spacing. The issue is, so what? Does that result from, or does it produce, or does it correlate in any way, with another line of bullshit called "cultural style" (roasted/baked/medium rare/cold)?
What in the real world of payroll and mall shootings are we supposed to do with stuff like this?
what would they call the ME culture? Pro-active -- kill first ask questions later?
I'll bring up another possible example of "Proxemics": in the United States, the Democratic vote is urban/suburban. The rural/exurban vote is Republican.
So, why do people vote Democrat when you squish them together & Republican when they've got some elbow room?
A woman and a man can exist in the same space either alone occupies. They don't crowd each other.
Japanese culture is non-confrontational?
This will be great news to the Koreans and Chinese.
Regarding the larger distance for Americans vs Europeans: Heh. My wife once had a conversation with a female German colleague that wandered at least 100' down a verandah, because the colleague kept moving closer to her culturally-comfortable conversational distance, and my wife kept backing up to maintain hers.
I'm pretty sure they've been programming the androids already among us to err on the side of distance.
"Cool and decisive" versus "warm and impulsive" sounds like the kind of cultural stereotyping we've long been taught to reject. Did Francavilla or Lewis or Hall fail to get the memo, or has the wheel turned again?
rhhardin@11:31: "A woman and a man can exist in the same space either alone occupies. They don't crowd each other."
Yes. Opposite spin in same orbital. Elegant!
Hagar demonstrates why the social sciences, properly applied, are not pointless.
Hint: there's often a YUUUUGE difference in how cultures interact with insiders vs outsiders. In fact I'm pretty sure there's a picture of Japan in the encyclopedia entry for this topic.
When I was young I lived in a sleeping room and my neighbor was a Korean Dr who had just immigrated to the USA and he was friendly so I got to know him a little bit and one thing I noticed about him is that when he talked to me he got right in my face causing me to signal him to back off a little which kind of embarrassed him. He told me that in South Korea, Americans are viewed as liking to fight wars. Later on he moved out and when he got married he invited me to his wedding. I lost touch with him after his wedding.
I just don't want to ask Laslo about the concept of personal space. Or lack thereof. Or when it's appropriate to violate someone's personal space.
--Vance
Proxemics is all good, as long as those others don't culturally appropriate our cool and decisive style. Back off. others.
Different expectations of personal space can lead to difficulties in intercultural communication.
Well, somebody has to be at fault for that! Must be the evil colonizing Western Civilization folks at fault. Blame it on the Great Satan, or the Franks, whatever.
The differences in personal space preference can be a big deal in a relationship between men and women and in relationships in the work place.
One person (the wife) may come from a family or culture where you greet everyone with a big hug and kiss on the cheek and sit close to each other. The other person (the husband) may be from a less physically demonstrative family that doesn't hug and has a bigger personal space. It doesn't mean the non huggers are any less loving or don't care, but often the hugging family (wife and her family) will feel rejected by the less demonstrative.
This misunderstanding can lead to strife and even divorce. Same issues arise in a work environment where one may be "leaning in" and it can be perceived as sexual harassment.
Different styles. People need to be aware of it and deal with it by .....actually communicating. Use your words people!
I suppose the correct way to look at this is to become aware and take responsibility for not misinterpreting another's actions. Alas it will just be another reason to beat up on White Privilege, you know the cold distant racists.
Hint: there's often a YUUUUGE difference in how cultures interact with insiders vs outsiders. In fact I'm pretty sure there's a picture of Japan in the encyclopedia entry for this topic.
From the opening scene in "Shogun"?
The separate bed discussion? Initiated by who? Meade or Althouse?
In college I had an Anthropology professor who had lived in Asia, where she had done a lot of field work, and went to embassy parties there fairly regularly. When discussing the differences between what cultures defined as personal space she stated that you could observe it at those parties. People from cultures with a small amount of personal space such as Asians and South Americans would go up to Northern Europeans and Americans to talk, intruding into their personal space, causing the Europeans and Americans to back up in order to recover their personal space, the interlocutor would then advance, this would continue until everyone ended up against the wall or in a corner and retreat was no longer possible.
And then there was the Special Forces SSG I ran into in PLDC (a course that he obviously did not need and was a total waste to make him attend, but requirements are requirements.) His operational theater was Thailand and he spent a lot of time there training Thai soldiers. Special Forces soldiers are expected to conform to the local customs in order to inspire confidence and trust. In Thailand the custom is that men hold hands with their friends when they walk down the street together. This guy was a literal snake eater who was certified in both HALO and Scuba Insertion (one of the things they do in that school is tie your hands behind your back, throw you into a pool, and have you make your away to the other end), but he said the hand holding was the hardest thing he had ever done.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
The easy solution is to mirror the interactive style of the person you're talking to at least halfway. If both go halfway, they meet in the middle and are both relatively comfortable.
You can see the space thing plainly at ATMs across the land. Out west, a lot more space is given the person using the terminal.
My father-in-law served in Spain and Mexico as a consular official for the US. I think his description of the difference between these two Latin cultures is quite instructive. He told me that in Mexico he would go to the Secretary's office and be met at the door of the building by the Secretary's assistant. 'O, Don >>>, welcome to our office. Can I offer you something to drink.' He was personally conducted to the Secretary's office. As he entered the room, the Secretary got up from behind his desk and came to the door. He put out his hand and shook my father-in-law's hand. 'O, Don >>>, welcome to my office. What can I do for you?' After further pleasantries, the Secretary proceeded to lie, and lie, and lie. At the end of the meeting, he personally conducted him out of the building, encouraging him to come back. "Mi casa es su casa!'. In Spain, he went to the Secretary's building and it took a while to find the office. The Secretary's assistant was behind his desk when he came to the office. Without getting up, he said 'Hello, the Secretary is busy right now, but he will be with you soon." After an hour of waiting, the assistant said, 'He is ready for you now.' My father-in-law entered the office and found the Spanish Secretary behind his desk. He didn't get up, he didn't offer anything to my FIL. He just said 'Hello', and proceeded to lie, and lie again. At the end, my FIL was dismissed and had to find his own way out of the building. The moral of the story is that although the Mexican and Spanish Secretary's both lied, my FIL left feeling much warmer and more positive about the Mexican official than the Spanish official. Culture does make a difference.
What, no Seinfeld reference?
Kramer Meets Close Talker
Anyone who thinks Asians are non-confrontational has never been married to one. There is a huge difference between public and private behavior.
I posit that the goal of life is intimacy. But intimacy takes sensitive romance for days to
set up.
Who has time for that anymore? I know who, it's us retired peoples.
The need for personal space here in the Pacific NW/Seattle is why I believe public transportation won't be embraced at the level desired by urban planners. Some people would rather sit in traffic behind the wheel despite congestion, as they must have that zone of privacy for their commute. I've had people tell me that its the only alone/quiet time they have.
The resident Althouse stoner puts up a post at 4:20. Nice.
I think a lot of people don't like to use mass transit because it pushes people together. They don't want to sit next to someone with body odor or bad breath. They also don't want to be around gangs of loud teens itching for a fight.
It's interesting people can understand and consider these types of comparisons, and even understand their causes. But any similar discussion of American cultures would immediately be deemed racist.
I think a lot of people don't like to use mass transit because it pushes people together
I don't like mass transit because it doesn't necessarily take me where I want to go. Or just takes me part of the way there and I still have to find my way to my destination. Whereas if I drive, I can go where I want, when I want and generally find a parking space conveniently located. I can also take my "things" and shopping to and from both locations without having to be a professional juggler or weight lifter.
Plus...I can do it all without being crammed next to people with whom I do not wish to remotely associate. No worry about being jostled or robbed. I can lock my car doors and if necessary run the bastards over :-D
So maybe "grab them by the pussy" was just a simple mismatch in Proxemics. C'mon, you know Carville would make that argument if it was a Dem's hand in there.
"So, why do people vote Democrat when you squish them together & Republican when they've got some elbow room?"
When you get too close to other people you want to control them and force them to be as much like you as possible. Maybe we're onto something here. Please send my Doctorate by next day air. I need some respect before this weekend.
Hall's book "The Hidden Dimension" is a nice,interesting read. Lots to learn in it even after all these years.
I believe it was in one of his books (it has been 20+ years!) he has a story about an Egyptian colleague that realized that in Egypt they did not have a word for rape. I guess rape is not possible in that environment.
jjm
"So, why do people vote Democrat when you squish them together & Republican when they've got some elbow room?"
My theory is that in close proximity public spending can be more easily justified--a subway system subsidized with taxes so most people don't see the real cost makes more sense in cities than spread out areas. Being close together makes people think more communally too--more likely to have contact with strangers.
But another part of this is cities on coasts or rivers tend to have limits to where they can spread out, so naturally housing prices are higher (add to that leftist policies like rent control), making it harder to live with a family and better to live alone, and families tend to be more conservative than singles. Then, once this is established, conservatives prefer living in areas governed more conservatively and vice versa for liberals, so the sorting enhances all of this.
My daughter, just back from a four month trek on the Pacific Crest Trail, used the term "cuddle puddle" to describe one method hikers used to stay warm in camp.
I also know an elderly gent who told me about his 1950s Ranger training for winter conditions in the Colorado mountains, in January. As platoon leader, he chose the largest private to share his tent, for the warmth available from spooning each other.
Proximity is an issue only until one gets really, really cold.
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