"Most people see that type of language as offensive and even dangerous. The exception is people who grew up in New York. We see it as 'talking.'"
ADDED: Can we have a President from New York City? "New York" in the quote above, means New York City. People from NYC say "New York State" when they mean the state. We've had some Presidents from New York State already. But were they from NYC?
1. Martin Van Buren. No. He was from Kinderhook, New York, which is near Albany.
2. Millard Fillmore. No. He was from the Finger Lakes region.
3. Grover Cleveland. No. Born in New Jersey, some childhood time in upstate New York, and an upstate New York career, including mayor of Buffalo.
4. Chester A. Arthur. Not really. Born in Vermont, later lived in lots of different New York towns — York, Perry, Greenwich, Lansingburgh, Schenectady, and Hoosick. "The family's frequent moves later spawned accusations that Chester Arthur was not a native-born citizen of the United States." Eventually practiced law in NYC.
5. Franklin D. Roosevelt. Eh. He was born in the Hudson Valley town of Hyde Park, but he subsequently lived in NYC, in a high-society setting.
6. Theodore Roosevelt. Yes! Born on East 20th Street in New York City. What did he sound like? Listen:
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I saw an analysis awhile back (forget where) pointing out that all Trump was doing was Ball-busting. Everyone from NY or NJ gets that and realizes it's hyperbole, it's purpose is to facilitate discussion. The outraged nice people (members of Trump's social class) don't see that, but steelworkers do.
You don't have to be from NY/NJ to get it. Scranton Joe talks like this all the time. Folks in the Military, in Fraternities and on competitive sports teams talk to their buddies this way all the time.
In five and a half minutes, after I am done coughing, I will have a witty retort.
Chester A Arthur showed up at an orphanage not far from the Canadian border as a small child, parents unknown, so its not like wondering about his citizenship was that far fetched. If he didn't speak French though, there is a better chance he was American.
Adams sees confirmation bias all over.
I don't think most people care about Trump's "style" of talking, or the "inappropriateness" of what he says--they care more about the substance or lack of it. The same people criticizing his "style" were often fond of Joe Biden's "crazy uncle who'd say anything" style, and likewise a lot of Trump fans who ripped on Biden for that seem to have no problem with Trump. If you agree with the guy, you find his manner "liberating". If you are appalled by him, his manner is "crude". But no one minds "crude" when the crude is on their side.
You could probably apply all of Derrida on Freud's writing machine to Adams.
There's something to introduce new stuff and something to keep new stuff from being changed.
Persuasion is the former and confirmation bias the latter.
It's a grammatical force, not a physical one.
I happen to like the dark.
Kroger closing at midnight ended very pleasant country ten mile bike rides to the store at 3am, turning on lights only if rare traffic came along.
Kroger closed because a bar closed at 1am and the patrons all came into the store.
I work occasionally with Boilermakers in NYC and I've heard them several times say that Trump had to "Watch his mouth". In my experience NYC guys are often more polite (if having a pretty wide vocabulary of swear words) than others. Trumps conversations are that of a phoney tough guy
I agree with Adams generally about trump, BUT he writes
"As a student of persuasion, my mental filters are set to spot confirmation bias the way bird-watchers are trained to spot birds. Most voters have never even heard of confirmation bias. They don’t know it is a thing.
Once you know what confirmation bias is, you can better recognize it in others."
Yep, once you start looking for Confirmation Bias, the number of times you will spot it goes way up! It shows that its everywhere!
You mean violent expressions like "bringing a gun to a knife fight," and"getting in their faces"?
"You mean violent expressions like "bringing a gun to a knife fight," and"getting in their faces"?"
That's Chicago talk. It's a lot like NYC talk, but with thicker crust.
This is a good question. I find Trump personally offensive and I detest that New York City thing. I presumed it was my Midwestern sensibility. If that is the case, it doesn't bode well for the critical (for Trump) swing states of Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Iowa.
Thanks for posting the TR speech. That's the first time I have ever heard him speak. His delivery was crisp and unaccented by either region or class. FDR and Eleanor had much more patrician voices.
New York talk. Talk trash, then deny you meant it. Plausible deniability. Oh it was only New York talk, he didn't really mean he'd deport 11 million people.
Your Midwestern sensibility?
Dude...
I've been surrounded for 30 years by obnoxious NYC accents in South Florida.
Trump sounds nothing like them. Believe me.
I'll add to the thanks for posting TR's speech. I've read all three volumes of Morris' biography of TR and I was startled at how different TR sounded than the voice of him that I had imagined in my head. My imagined voice was brasher and bolder, more plebeian and less patrician.
Actually, Scott Adams is from upstate somewhere, so he means New York State.
Good thing Trump doesn't want his opponents "burned at the stake", and he hasn't threatened to sic the IRS on them.
Blogger Chuck said...
This is a good question. I find Trump personally offensive and I detest that New York City thing. I presumed it was my Midwestern sensibility. If that is the case, it doesn't bode well for the critical (for Trump) swing states of Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Iowa.
9/6/16, 9:33 AM
My Midwestern sensibilities find Trump personally offensive, and I detest that New York City thing, but I also find the notion of electing a known criminal to be President of the United States abhorrent. I cannot think of anything that Trump has said that is worse than lying to the parents of the dead over the coffins of their children.
Whitey Bulger probably speaks with a Boston accent, but who would describe it as "patrician"?
Plausible deniability.
A Hillary supporter griping about Trump's "plausible deniability". Rock solid irony.
" I presumed it was my Midwestern sensibility"
Midwesterners are typically nice. Often make nice, but sometimes at the expense of getting shit done or being critical when being critical would actually help.
"This is a good question. I find Trump personally offensive and I detest that New York City thing. I presumed it was my Midwestern sensibility. If that is the case, it doesn't bode well for the critical (for Trump) swing states of Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Iowa."
I'm from NY (just outside the city) and don't really mind the mannerisms (though saying "bigly"? New Yorkers don't talk like that). But there's enough other problems with him.
I don't think the mannerisms will be a problem in those swing states--at least not among those disposed to vote for him (or who are simply more repelled with Hillary and will vote for him by default).
TR was saying pretty much what buwaya did yesterday: That there are times when moderate and polite speech is ineffective. He also sounded rather Trumpian in his notion that leaders are sometimes brought forth for a specific need and then cast aside after the need has been met. One can see a parallel in Churchill.
damikesc:
To be fair a Hillary supporter gave up on the plausible part of deniability quite a while ago.
All that remains now is Will to Power.
As someone living in Ohio, we do sometimes travel outside of our state to see the rest of the "world". Trump is having rallies that thousands attend and no one cares that he sounds like a New Yorker. They like him because he speaks the same language as they do, what everyone has wanted pols to start saying, and what they get ridiculed for saying. Hillary is from New York and she is shrill, which is why her rallies have been sparkly attended, 300 in blue Cleveland.
Today, Crooked Hillary should have the advantage. A Chicago girl, spending much of two decades in Arkansas, then two decades living in DC, while calling NY home. If she weren't so danged Crooked.
Figures of speech aren't politically correct. One you allow allusions, things go out of control and there's no telling what people will say. They might say what they think.
Obama could have run on hope and suicide.
Suicide, after all, is just literary for change in general. Killing the old self to become the new. Lit crit 101.
The problem is people would remember back and notice the ruin he brings to everything he touches.
Peggy Coffey said...
As someone living in Ohio, we do sometimes travel outside of our state to see the rest of the "world". Trump is having rallies that thousands attend and no one cares that he sounds like a New Yorker.
Well, I don't know what to add, to the litany of observers who have commented on the fallacy of judging the national electorate (or even the critical swing state electorates) based on Trump rally crowds.
They like him because he speaks the same language as they do, what everyone has wanted pols to start saying, and what they get ridiculed for saying.
And what appeals to many of Trump's most ardent supporters is also what has gotten Trump the biggest negative poll numbers in the modern history of American polling.
Hillary is from New York and she is shrill, which is why her rallies have been sparkly attended, 300 in blue Cleveland.
Hillary is from suburban Chicago, then Wellesley, then Yale, then Arkansas. If she is from "New York" at all, she is from Westchester County and the Hamptons. She isn't a lifelong resident of Queens and NYC; she's not a Trump, or a Wiener, or a Giuliani, or a Mike Bloomberg or an Al Sharpton or a Charlie Rangel.
New Yawkas don't sound like Teddy. His precise high society speech would insult modern natives of the 5 Burroughs. Having worked in Manhattan many years ago, I can tell you that the island natives have limited geographical concepts. When I said that I had moved to Jersey from Ohio, I got questions like, "Is that near Iowa?"
Martin Van Buren was the first natural born Citizen, born in New York of US citizen parents in 1781. He was the 8th President.
Chester Arthur was the first Usurper, non natural born Citizen, born in Vt. to a father who did not become a US Citizen until Chester was 14 years old. He was born a British subject just as the Usurper Hussein Obama was, and there was much controversy during that Presidential campaign (he was the VP to Garfield, and became POTUS when Garfield was assassinated) that he was born in Canada. No one knew until 2009 that his father was not a US Citizen at the time Chester Arthur was born, and was not a US Citizen until Chester was 14. That fact hid in plain sight, and the handlers of the Usurper Hussein Obama surely know that history, and used the same playbook, creating a controversy over place of birth, when the fact of his father's NON US Citizenship hid in plain sight, which in actuality renders PLACE of birth a non issue (it wouldn't matter then if he was born on the desk in the Oval Office, and was delivered by JFK).
Trump will win New York, Florida, Texas, and Ohio. It's over. LANDSLIDE.
Holy Moly, did you listen to the vocabulary TR used in that speech?
I have no idea who his audience was, but you'd never hear the like today, except if a candidate was speaking to an audience of "specialists", e.g. to an assembly of international studies scholars.
Apparently Hillary has Parkinson's disease. Her coughing is a swallowing problem, which along with her dyskinesia episodes, are side effects of the Levodopa drug that controls her Parkinsons' symptoms. That is fine, but the drug's other side effects are slow reasoning, memory lapses, confusion and tiredness.
TR must have had some other voice he used when he was bragging about his cowboy days and saying that everything was 'bully.' Here he sounds to me like an upper class New Yorker from that time. Some of the pronunciations were very strange. Also, for a man who proudly called himself a progressive, he made a good case for less government and more individual freedom.
Blogger EMD said...
" I presumed it was my Midwestern sensibility"
Maybe you should wear a looser dress.
Midwesterners are typically nice. Often make nice, but sometimes at the expense of getting shit done or being critical when being critical would actually help.
Up to a point. Once that point is reached they either start messin with ya or ask ya to step outside.
Mick,
In the words of the Wikipedia entry for Frank Marshall Davis,
"In the 2012 film Dreams from My Real Father film maker Joel Gilbert claims that Davis is Barack Obama's biological father.[38]"
Birkel raised the hare, some time back, that what does one do about bastards? It's a wise son who knows his own father. (The more so before DNA.)
How interesting if Obama were nBC on both sides after all!
Ah, yes; Teddy Roosevelt, the first Progressive President--and a nominal Republican, as well.
Then came Wilson, FDR, LBJ, and BHO.
Whoo hoo.
@Oso Negro said...
My Midwestern sensibilities find Trump personally offensive, and I detest that New York City thing, but I also find the notion of electing a known criminal to be President of the United States abhorrent. I cannot think of anything that Trump has said that is worse than lying to the parents of the dead over the coffins of their children.
While I agree with much that Oso says, Trump has been found guilty of breaking the law with regard to cooking his books for the NJ Casino folks; for mistreating rent-control tenants (one was 100+ years old) that he tried to force out of his buildings; for hiring illegal Polish immigrants to tear down an asbestos-laden building in New York (without protective gear or oxygen masks) and Lord knows what interesting infractions took place during his association with his NY Mafia friends both in the city and in NJ. Then there was the $100,000 to the Clinton Crime Family Foundation, for which he must have received an appropriate quid pro quo. So Donald has been tried and convicted on several occasions, but Hillary has not!
And before you ask, I am not voting for either of them.
The TR clip is fascinating. Unlikely to get a riff on the French Revolution from today's politicians. The diction is almost British--not the accent but the points of emphasis. It seems so fussy and artificial today but it was a style for decades after. I wonder what Lincoln and Grant sounded like. Or Washington.
tradguy, dysphagia, or difficulty swallowing, is not a side effect of L-dopa but a symptom of Parkinson's Disease [and other neuromuscular disorders].
I grew up in Milwaukee and the third-shift guys I used to work with during the summer talked just like Trump.
"The diction is almost British--not the accent but the points of emphasis. It seems so fussy and artificial today but it was a style for decades after. I wonder what Lincoln and Grant sounded like. Or Washington."
It's interesting how as recently as the mid-20th century we had accents in this country that have disappeared since--like the "Atlantic" accent (FDR and Katherine Hepburn). In Civil War movies they portray southern accents as sounding like they do today, but I wonder if they were a lot different (or northern accents for that matter). I figure at the time of the Revolution our accents were not quite British but not quite what they are now either.
New York values..
“All I did is point out the fact that on the cover of the National Enquirer, there’s a picture of him [Rafael Cruz] and crazy Lee Harvey Oswald having breakfast,” Trump said. “I had nothing to do with it. This was a magazine that frankly in many respects, should be very respected. They got O.J. They got Edwards. They got this. I mean, if that was the New York Times, they would have gotten Pulitzer prizes for their reporting.”
"I grew up in Milwaukee and the third-shift guys I used to work with during the summer talked just like Trump"
According to Happy Days people in Milwaukee sounded just like the Fonz. Eeeyyyy!
TR didn't have the Larchmont lockjaw of his cousins Franklin and Eleanor. His diction sounded reasonably modern. When he worked as a cowboy in the Badlands, I don't think too much high falutinh diction would have been encouraged........When he gave that speech, he was about the same distance from the French Revolution as we are from WWI and the Russian Revolution. It was a living memory. The left never learns any useful lessons from revolutions, and the right is somewhat dyslexic about wars.......TR wrote 42 books. Iirc, the Norris bio claimed that he read one book a day and his eidetic memory was such that he could quote passages from memory.
So, not a word about the Pam Bondi scandal. Crooked Trump scolds Hillary, while he is ten times as crooked, how much money did he borrow from China and Russia? Why doesn't he release his tax returns? Must be the New York way of things.
From 'The Community of Color Gazette':
"Man of Color Tells A Young Man to Watch His Mouth"
Paul Glades, a Black Man of our Community of Color, was overheard telling a younger Black Man to "watch his mouth."
When asked, Mr. Glades confirmed the story.
"I was in line at the Seven-Eleven to buy my stuff for the night, and the kid in front of me was on his cell-phone. It was "F**k this" and "F**k that". People in line don't need to hear that sh*t."
Alfonso Michael, the cashier at the Seven-Eleven, confirmed the story.
"The young kid was swearing up a storm, it was making people in line uncomfortable. Mr. Glades finally told the kid to watch his mouth."
Mr. Michael continued the story.
"The kid turns and tries to act all punk-ass, but Mr. Glade, he is old school. Mr. Glade pointed at a tattoo on his neck and said that he had f**ked bigger guys than him in the a** in prison, and the kid shut himself up."
When asked about the exchange, Mr. Glade paused.
"Did I say that? Sometimes when a situation gets hot you just gotta shut it down, hard."
When asked about the tattoo on his neck Mr. Glades answered reflectively.
"That was from prison. I was a different man, back then. I like to think I've learned some."
When asked about what he has learned since his prison experience Mr. Glades responded forcefully.
"None of your f**cking business."
So there it is: a Story of Change in our Community of Color. For more stories like this please read 'The Community of Color Gazette'.
I am Laslo.
According to IMDB the accent of Daniel Day-Lewis's character Bill the Butcher in Gangs of of New York was based on a recording of Walt Whitman 's voice.
Wally
When I call, they kiss my ass"
And he says it with a New York accent.
TR sounds like a well-heeled New Yorker who went to Harvard, maybe took diction lessons to further his political career, and learned a pre-radio, pre-recorded sound method of elocution, which was possibly old-fashioned by the time he made that recording. His relatives Franklin and Eleanor were the last of that breed in the White House.
"I figure at the time of the Revolution our accents were not quite British but not quite what they are now either."
I've heard that at the time of the Revolution British accents weren't what they are now either. I think it was the Story of English book that talks about this curious interplay, where America continued elements of the English of that time while England trended away from it.
When I was in Ireland I was struck by a couple of people who were Irish natives but spoke with an American accent (to me spoke without an accent). They grew up around Americans though not solely around Americans. Which got me to thinking how the Irish accent really blends easily into American without much push. Not surprising given how much Irish English has poured into this country over the 100+ years.
Regarding accents, my only big disappointment in the Downton Abbey series was Cora's miserable 'American' accent. Women of the upper classes in America did NOT sound like simpering Valley girls.
Fall of my sophomore year at LSU ('63) we had two 40 yr-old housewives in my poli-sci class returning to complete their degree. Their southern accent was at least TWICE as thick as that of current co-eds of my generation, and I wondered at the time: "Will the effects of national tv and increased regional mobility, etc., dilute our childrens accents as much as was ours relative to these ladies?" Sure enough, the accent of the vast majority of LSU students today bears only the faintest resemblance to that of the graduates of my LSU Class of '66.
Adams: "I consider it a mistake to speak in New York style outside the state."
Has he ever watched Judge Judy? "You're an idiot!" "You're a moron!" She's about to start her 21st season on the air and she's probably made a hell of a lot more on her syndication deals than Adams has for "Dilbert."
This style can play well outside of NYC, and it's part of the reason Trump has done so well.
Bad Lieutenant said...
Mick,
"In the words of the Wikipedia entry for Frank Marshall Davis,
"In the 2012 film Dreams from My Real Father film maker Joel Gilbert claims that Davis is Barack Obama's biological father.[38]"
Birkel raised the hare, some time back, that what does one do about bastards? It's a wise son who knows his own father. (The more so before DNA.)
How interesting if Obama were nBC on both sides after all!"
Wikipedia is not a "source".
"I've heard that at the time of the Revolution British accents weren't what they are now either. I think it was the Story of English book that talks about this curious interplay, where America continued elements of the English of that time while England trended away from it."
I heard that too--that British accents used to use the hard "r" and sounded a bit more like American accents today than British accents of today.
Wasn't the quintessential New York City presidential candidate Al Smith? I mentioned Al Smith in another post recently. Al Smith was destroyed in the election of 1928. Herbert Hoover won 444 electoral votes.
He lived his whole life on the lower east side of Manhattan, excepting his time as a Tammany Hall politician in Albany. A quintessential NYC-New Yorker.
"my only big disappointment in the Downton Abbey series was Cora's miserable 'American' accent"
And in the Blu-Ray version I have, Robert, Lord Grantham, referred to the icebox in the kitchen as a "refrigerator."
My father was born and raised in Brooklyn but you never would have detected that in his voice. His two sisters, on the other hand, had New York written all over their accents. I had no detectable accent either except that when I went to visit relatives in North Carolina, I would come home with a southern accent so thick my northern friends couldn't understand a word I was saying. My uncle had a combination southern/pahk-the-cahh-in-the-Hahvahd-yahd thing going on that was something to behold. Accents are a hobby of mine and I love trying to guess where someone is from by their accent. My favorite accent in the US is Cajun which I find extremely sexy. I met a German woman once who could mimic any American accent you could name. She was great.
@Sukie - not sure how well you can recognize your own accent, or maybe even the accents of those around you every day. From my experience, it is one of those subjective things - I sound normal, and everyone else have the accents. I have repeatedly been accused of having a Midwest accent, despite never having lived there. And, of my 65 years, all but 5 (DC/MD/VA) was spent in the west (if you include my 5 years in TX as part of the west). My mother grew up in Chicago, but immigrated to CO after college. Never made much sense to me. I will admit though that my speech seems to be slowing up a bit here in MT, as I adjust to the pace at which everyone else speaks here (except my partner, who couldn't slow down if she tried, but, of course, won't try - which maybe why I notice the slowing down).
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