Writes Scott Adams in "Who Trump Offends with His Salty Language."
IN THE COMMENTS: Meade said...
My 90 year-old greatest generation wise beyond her years mother is offended.
My mother exists.
My mother grew up on a cattle farm in central Indiana. Manure. Blood. Dirt. Guts. Varmints. Sex everywhere you looked. None of that offends her.
But Trump does.
पोस्ट्स
१९८ टिप्पण्या:
"We are offended ON BEHALF of people we imagine would be offended. But those people do not exist. Stop imagining offended people."
This would be the end of campus activism. If he were important enough people would gather around him and cry to prove they do exist.
I'm offended by the word "salty"
"Salty" is a lame diversion.
Geographic or cultural blindness. Where I live, most adults are not offended by language, but some really are. For example, I know a perfectly nice, stable woman in her fifties who was made to cry at a new job because a friendly co-worker kept saying "fuck" in conversation. She adjusted, but there are certainly plenty of other people who are offended and haven't gone through an adjustment experience.
Another example, I once received a nice email from an older person complementing my writing but also asking if I could please never use a certain word again that I had used one time. This person was very bothered by that word. (I don't remember what the word was. Certainly some common bad word but likely milder than those listed by Adams.)
I'll tell you who is offended by bad language. My parents and a lot of other people of an older generation. Also, conservative Christians are also offended by bad language. And I am offended by the use of bad language depending on the context. In a Tarantino film or on Trailer Park Boys, I got no problem, but I sure as heck don't want my president speaking like that in public (or even assuring us that his penis is large enough--for what I'm not sure).
Scott Adams is an idiot who lives in a bubble.
I can't say I get offended on behalf of those people though. But they do exist.
Other than those who are offended out of habit or hobby. Most make an avocation of being offended, though some are able to turn it into a vocation.
"Pretending to be offended on behalf of people we imagine would be offended," is more like it.
The important thing is that these poor, dumb masses keep voting Democrat.
Virtue signaling - but why bother?
"Why do we get so mad, even when the offense in question does not concern us directly? The answer seems obvious: We denounce wrongdoers because we value fairness and justice, because we want the world to be a better place. Our indignation appears selfless in nature.
And it often is — at least on a conscious level. But in a paper published Thursday in the journal Nature, we present evidence that the roots of this outrage are, in part, self-serving. We suggest that expressing moral outrage can serve as a form of personal advertisement: People who invest time and effort in condemning those who behave badly are trusted more.
Our paper helps address an evolutionary mystery: Why would a selfless tendency like moral outrage result from the “selfish” process of evolution? One important piece of the answer is that expressing moral outrage actually does benefit you, in the long run, by improving your reputation."
Politucal correctness is the taboo of many progressives and vulgarity is the taboo of some consevatives. Our popular culture largely is vulgar but also politically correct.
My 90 year-old greatest generation wise beyond her years mother is offended.
Hey Fred!
George Carlin and Lenny Bruce were Republicans?
Careful, Althouse! There are whole industries today built on being offended on behalf of other people.
Then there is the Entertainment Industry, much of which today does actually offend people with pointless and excessive salty language.
My mother exists.
Isn't foul language just a lifestyle choice like any other, and therefore shouldn't it be respected and honored?
We don't dare offend people who walk down the street naked every year, so why are we permitted to berate people who like saying certain words?
My mother grew up on a cattle farm in central Indiana. Manure. Blood. Dirt. Guts. Varmints. Sex everywhere you looked. None of that offends her.
But Trump does.
My mother exists also, in Manila where people are more civilized. So far.
Look, it's not just feelings; at many universities one can file a sexual assault charge against a man on someone else's behalf. Read Instapundit/Prof. Reynolds' column discussing GA Tech--the example used is of a male student accused by a third part of sexual misconduct when he let a drunk woman sleep it off on his couch. The woman herself texted to thank the guy for helping her out, but apparently one of her friends filed charges against the guy and he wasn't allowed to present the texts as evidence.
It's not some small matter of feelings--this stupid shit is a part of rules and regulations the SJWs use to ruin people's lives.
My 90 year-old mother was first offended by Stalin. Then Hitler. Then FDR. Then Communism. Then Nixon. Then Clinton.
Now she's offended by Trump.
Oh, fucking please! Turn on your local hip hop station and count the seconds before you hear the N word or MF or both. I promise you that you can hold your breath long enough to hear either or both.
Our own hostess is lobbying to eliminate the question mark. Ebonics has been "taught" for years.
Know what I mean See what I'm saying Fuckin A u do don mater if u see im sayin u get it
I am offended by the entire trend.
I'm offended by Che shirts. I'm offended by Leftist who support Stalin, Mao, Fidel, etc.
Lots of people are offended by Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry.
So what?
When I get offended it's "suck it up, buttercup, everyone has a right to express themselves and hold any opinions they want." Ok, no problem.
When CERTAIN people get offended or profess offense on others' behalf, though, it's suddenly traumatic, suddenly a mental health issue, suddenly a question of safety, and so the "offending" party must be punished.
By pure coincidence the CERTAIN people just happen to be those groups who hold the ideological and political views the Left supports.
Some animals are more equal than others.
She isn't offended on anyone else's behalf. She isn't offended by any of his words. She's offended by Trump.
She has voted Republican her entire life. But she's offended by Trump.
Meade is correct.
We expect our president to be above the barnyard.
Washington set the standard. He was the general of an army in an agrian society. He dressed and acted like a leader. Not like a guy running a criminal traitor gang. He acted the same as president.
In context, I am not offended by salty language.
I do find gratuitous insults by a bullying blowhard a bit offensive. He wouldn't last long on my playground.
I mostly dislike the stupidity of it, and the assumption that the vulgus needs vulgarity to get it. It is an irritating form of condescension.
I am not offended but bemused by a writer who defends crude cursing by a presidential candidate as "salty language."
@MC: "Our popular culture largely is vulgar but also politically correct." Right. Which is why more vulgarity is unlikely to undo PC.
Meade said...
My mother exists
I think I speak for a lot of commenters here when I say that I still think there is a strong possibility that you are nothing more than and Althouse sockpuppet. Yeah, sure, there is a real guy out there whose picture she has taken with various dogs. And that pull-up video. Probably photoshopped.
And don't get me started on this whole "Madison" "Wisconsin" place, and all the implausible stuff that supposedly goes on there...
Once Nixon went on Laugh In it started going downhill. Obama was the first sitting president to appear on a late night entertainment show (others had done it while running for president but not while they were president) and internet based entertainment programs like Between Two Ferns.
Trump is the apotheosis of the candidate as celebrity. Sock It To Me
I'm obviously not bothered by choice language; the funny thing is when Trump himself goes all-fake-offended-by-bad-words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hymTiduovM
Anyway, I am not shocked or dismayed by Trump's foulest language. "Language" has a lot to compete with, on the long list of all of the deeply foul, distasteful, disgusting things about Donald Trump.
Andrew Jackson would have made a great celebrity guest.
And probably Teddy R also.
Goodness knows what people in the past would have gotten up to, given modern technology.
Or how they would have come across.
Bah- Stating you're offended by language is the nice way to yell STFU.
We were collectively offended by 47 percent, too, and we kicked that guy to the curb. Now suck it up with this guy.
I'm offended by Trump Steaks.
"We expect our president to be above the barnyard."
Didn't hurt Clinton any. I imagine Trump noticed.
My 97 year-old greatest generation wise beyond her years mother is offended...by every Republican that has ever walked the earth.
My mother grew up on a wheat farm in dust bowl, depression era Marysville, Kansas. Worshiped FDR and loved, loved JFK...did I mention she loved JFK(?) She loved the young Camelot couple so much, she had my aunt paint their portraits on velvet - remember when that was a thing(?)
She has never been prudish...Lenny Bruce didn't offend her...but she has changed slightly since becoming a great-grandmother. She never missed the Apprentice, and now never misses Shark Tank, but since Trump is running as a R, she can't stand him. And, unless Hillary physically harms one of her great-grandchildren, she'll vote for her, even if she's in shackles and an orange jump suit on election day.
If Trump switched parties tomorrow and started running as a D, she would support him wholeheartedly...crude speech and all.
Decorum never goes away, it just shape-morphs. While a lot of people are utterly immune to the f-word and its bastard children, they can grow quite offended by the n-word. Even simply saying, "the blacks," as Trump has on occasion is great cause for umbrage to be taken. The SNL bit with Trump as president showed this quite nicely.
We never do leave the law behind. We just redefined it.
It's a good focus. What offends us and why? Dilbert brings the point home. I'm offended by people who treat other people or animals badly for no good reason. I think Trump has a good reason to treat some people badly. He wants to be treated fairly but isn't. One of the problems of scrapping around in the NT Real Estate market where most people are devils and Trump wasn't. Trump is a crusader at a time we need someone to swing the sword to lop off the dragon heads of PC etc. Probably this is the last chance in the US to do that without a lot of violence.
"you are nothing more than and Althouse sock puppet"
High praise indeed! Thanks.
-Ann
My mother exists also, in Manila where people are more civilized.
More civilized than ... whom?
I, for one, hope and intend to cause offense not to some idealized person or group, but to the individual hearing my words. I cut out the middleman. And how do I make a profit? Volume!
Meade is a smart man. I usually agree with almost everything he says. If that causes anyone gas, allow me to appologize in advance.
You know who sometimes offends me with vulgarities: Laslo. I realize he has a quick mind and is quite insightful, but his message is often lost on me because he goes for the deeply vulgar.
Trump will make my wife vote for Hillary. And my wife has been as solid a Republican as one could ask for up to now.
High praise indeed! Thanks.
-Ann
Exactly why an irony marker is such a stupid idea.
Here's a little suggestion which no one will try but really should: try to go a day or week without using vulgarities. Make your arguments online in comments section without the salt of salty language. It's quite amazing how much more civil you find yourself becoming.
I'm not very good at this, but occasionally I try and it really does uplift my soul a bit.
Trump offends because that's his game. That gets attention, for now.
Remember that comedian a few years ago, Dirk Jagoff or whatever? Can't remember his name. They tried to make him a big thing, and he flailed because he wasn't funny.
Fugoff Johnson or something...can't remember...Empty Norton?
In 90 years, nothing has offended my mother more than the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center in 2001.
When I was 15 I declined to join her church. She offered forbearance.
When I was 16 I brought home a girlfriend she felt was unworthy. She showed tolerance, charity, and patience.
When I was 17 I announced I would go to prison before I would ever register for the Selective Service draft. She counseled me to think twice. And then twice again. Times seven.
But Donald Trump has pushed her limits.
Might've been Hempty Johnson.
So is Adams slinking back into Trump's camp now, thinking the KKK storm has blown over?
Catch 22. Political correctness is only good manners on steroids. But strength is also important for a man. And when a man shows his strength with words, he is not very often going to be seen as a politically correct man.
Walking that high wire is a great and rare skill; and we now know where Meade learned it.
I'm not offended by bad language. I'm put off by it. I find bad language, and the person using it, crude, crass, rude, loutish, ucouth, and vulgar. All those things! This antipathy was bred in me by my stolid salt-of-the-earth church-going hardworking dignified and honorable Midwestern small town German and Irish (Lace Curtain) parents and grandparents. My German father and his father were small-town Republicans in the best tradition of Abraham Lincoln's Republican Party (from which they were not at all far removed) and they deplored Nixon, regarding him as crass and foul-mouthed. Needless to say they vehemently disliked (but did not hate, because hatred is un-Christian) FDR, whom they regarded as a supercilious rich-kid knave (they didn't like his policies or governance either). They believed that the Democrat Party was the party of big-city corruption, graft, statism, authoritarianism, slavery, and racism.
It was only after I was fully grown and long after I should have known better did I realize that dad and grandpa were right about FDR and the Democrats. They probably would have disliked Trump too, and they would have been right about that as well.
I do miss what I would call, for want of a better term, "small-town Republicanism." It still exists here in Illinois, outside of Cook County.
Solid Republicans nominated HW, Dole, W, McCain, and Romney.
Even then Adams is being politically correct.
Offensive words are awesom. Their performance is honed by interest which is actual interest. Their nuance is amazing.
The even make a convenience of grammar instead of hewing closely to sentence diagrams.
They can be used carelessly as well, just like other words, but that's usage by morons.
What crap. Where were all these offended people and old folks when Obama was talking about kicking somebody's ass, or how things "sucked", or any of the other things that asshole has said that were far more offensive and dangerous than anything trump has said. Fuck your selective outrage, asswipes.
jaydub said...
"Meade is a smart man. I usually agree with almost everything he says. If that causes anyone gas, allow me to appologize in advance."
Oh man. Someone, please open the windows.
"Offensive words are awesom."
Aw.
"Walking that high wire is a great and rare skill; and we now know where Meade learned it."
Would you mind moving that safety net just a tad to the left for me down there, tradguy? Little more. More. Okay.
Thanks, bro.
Can you imagine what Lyndon Johnson would have been tweeting?
Solid Republicans nominated HW, Dole, W, McCain, and Romney
Bird in the hand, is all I am saying.
My mom died a year ago last month at age 94. She was lace curtain Irish to the core. We weren't allowed to curse or use any other form of bad language in the house. We weren't even allowed to say "shut up!" to each other. If we slipped and used bad words mom would draw in her breath in a sharp hiss and glare at us and say our names and dad would stare at us in a way that made me want to crawl under the table.
My mom and dad never told us outright that they loved us but we knew that they did.
My dad was on the town's draft board and there was never any question that my brothers and I would register. He was navy veteran of World War II in the Pacific and he was opposed to the Vietnam War but he felt that we should register for the draft and we did.
My parents, rest their soul, would've found Trump to be strongly disagreeable and off-putting. As do I.
But given the choice between him and Ms. 31 Flavors of Every Lie Imaginable, they would've voted for Trump. As will I.
Given his description, Meade's mother is not offended because she can't handle what Trump is saying and doing.
Trump is not in her home. He is not singling her out. He is not speaking to her directly. He is not forcing himself on her. He speaks on behalf of no one but himself. He has no authority over her.
She is free to turn him off at any time. She is in complete control and therefore has no reason to stand there being offended.
She is offended because she doesn't think other nice, decent people should have to be subjected to what Trump is saying or doing. She is offended because they are forced to either listen to something they do not wish to hear, or to make the effort to change the channel.
"I find him offensive", is simply saying, "I find myself in good company who would surely take offense". There is as much virtue signaling on the Right as there is on the Left.
Meade, however, is offended on behalf of his mother.
People should stop pretending that Trump uses a lot of crude speech because he doesn't. Other than the size of his hands and another word that he didn't say out loud I can't think of anything. Trump pushes back when attacked which some people think is crude, apparently.
At least your mother won't be too bothered by President Hillary, Meade. That's something, I guess.
My mother exists
So does mine. And all her friends. They'll vote third party before they'll vote for a boor.
@ Meade The important question is: if your mother is given the choice of voting for Trump the offensive Republican or Hillary the Bill-enabler Democrat, who will she vote for? I know where I would put my money, offended or not, and I also know that your mother will vote because it's her duty.
Trump is so generally offensive it's impossible to narrow it to a single cause, but use of coarse language is not a quality we can admire in our President.
Also, Dilbert is wrong. Many people are offended by the words he cites.
My father was in the Navy in WW2, and came home fully capable of cussin' like a sailor. I am his son, and a trial lawyer to boot, so my private language is often salty. My four adult children were reared to believe and understand that words aren't intrinsically either wicked or good, but rather appropriate or inappropriate to a situation.
A trial lawyer acquaintance of mine who specializes in divorce cases was preparing for a big trial a few years ago, and he asked me to critique him in a mock closing argument. He was arguing that the jury should award the entire community estate to his client, the wife, because the husband had misappropriated community funds for his sole benefit. "So Mr. Smith had these unpaid temporary child support obligations, and he had a huge mortgage on his and his wife's main community asset, their house, when he got that $250,000 bonus. Does he pay the back child support that's gone unpaid during these divorce proceedings, so that Mrs. Smith can keep them in their regular schools? Does he pay the unpaid house payments, so that Mrs. Smith won't have to worry about her and their children being literally put out into the street? No! What does he do with that money? He goes and buys a f*cking boat!"
I'd stop him every time he got to that point, and he'd blush and say to me, "Oh, of course I won't say it that way tomorrow."
But in every action is the seed of habit. And sure enough, in front of the jury, as he got caught up in the passion of the moment, he delivered that line exactly like that -- "he goes and buys a f*cking boat!"
No one in the courtroom so much as blinked. Not the judge, not the court reporter, not the jury. Everyone instantly understood that this was a passion-induced mistake, not a deliberate flouting of the rules of decorum that govern courtrooms. They weren't approving of the f-bomb, but they instantly forgave him. And the jury did indeed award Mrs. Smith their entire community estate as part of the divorce.
But that's not Donald Trump. He doesn't let slip an occasional profanity. He repeatedly, deliberately uses the crudest and most vulgar language he can think of, whenever he thinks there's some bozo in the audience who would like to be able to shout the word "p*ssy" on national TV without consequences himself.
And there's always a bozo like that in Trump's audience. There are always dozens of crude, vulgar bozos like that in Trump's audience.
I'm not saying everyone who supports Trump is a vulgar, crude bozo. But they do, obviously, have at a minimum an profound ability to tolerate vulgar, crude bozos.
Its as if the political pundits had never watched a Seinfeld episode or can remember Blowjob Clinton.
TL/DR: I'm not offended by Trump's language, but I'm profoundly offended and dismayed by his deliberate use of crude language in circumstances in which anyone with an ounce of judgment and self-control would refrain from that.
Mom2Es said...
My mother exists
"So does mine. And all her friends. They'll vote third party before they'll vote for a boor."
Exactly. (Hey, maybe your mother and my mother are friends!)
At least your mother won't be too bothered by President Hillary, Meade. That's something, I guess
President Hillary would bother my wife as much as it does me, but she won't vote for Trump, who disgusts her far more than he does me. These are just true things. There are women who will vote for Hillary only under the circumstance that she is running against Trump. If you want to make the argument that they will be outweighed by voters Trump draws from the woodwork, that's one thing, but don't delude yourself that they don't exist.
Beldar,
Sounds like your friend delivered the line he rehearsed in front of you beautifully.
I've never swore before a judge or jury. Have you? I didn't think so.
Your friend, like Trump, knew what he was doing and did it for a reason.
Meade!
I'm sorry your mom is offended by Trump.
She seems like a lovely lady, and my apologies to her!
I don't know if his 'offensiveness' is key or not to him winning and I don't know which aspects of his offensiveness is what offends your mom.
What I do know however is that lovely women like your mother does not an electoral victory make.
Which is sad and I wish it weren't the case, but it is.
Meaning, I'd rather lose the support of your mom and win the election than the reverse.
If it came to that, and again, I'm not sure it does!
But there it is.
"I'm not saying everyone who supports Trump is a vulgar, crude bozo. But they do, obviously, have at a minimum an profound ability to tolerate vulgar, crude bozos."
I think this misunderstands what is happening.
This is a revolution. It's going to be messy. Why is he the only one who has been willing to take on these issues ?
Again, Roger Simon has a a question you should answer.
But I ask -- as someone who would gladly vote for any Republican candidate still running and probably any of the thirteen who dropped out -- what exactly do they find so terrible about Donald Trump? Yes, Lord knows, he can be embarrassing (though I suspect we will be seeing less of that) and maybe he isn't the most conservative of conservatives (wasn't John Roberts supposed to be that?), but he is clearly one of the more politically shrewd candidates to come along in a while -- and not just for a non-politician. Just the way he is turning post-primary victory speeches into quasi-press conferences, monopolizing the media, reinvents the game. And he is expanding the Republican vote.
What most surprises me, however, is the approach taken to Trump by his enemies, those known under the rubric #NeverTrump and those better heeled who have blown millions on nauseating and evidently useless attack ads painting Donald as Mussolini with a bad haircut. For a group of smart people, in some cases very smart, they seem to have skipped Psychology 101 in college, making them curiously oblivious to the blowback from their assaults.
Can we deduce that Meade's mother was not offended by GW Bush and Obama, but voted for Romney because he is more of a gentleman in terms of breeding and associations? Would she have supported the Confederacy because the South was more genteel and refined, except if you were a slave?
Cruz is far more sanctimonious and measured in speech, but he frequently tells outright lies and employs deliberate deception. Is that offensive at all?
& to follow up, people in rebellion rarely have as lovely public manners as the elite they are trying to overthrow.
You should read what the Redcoat officers tittered and harrumphed about the colonials and their manners!!!!!
We only know the soaring rhetoric of our Founding Fathers but they often spoke to the Brits in most ribald & raunchy form.
Kevin said...
"Meade, however, is offended on behalf of his mother."
You are exactly wrong, Kevin. Nothing offends me and I'm offended on behalf of no one. I don't hate Donald Trump (although I hated guys like him, back in 1969, who supported LBJ's war in Vietnam while themselves evading the draft all the while knowing boys with fewer means would be forced to take their place).
I hate the idea of Donald Trump as POTUS. My mother is offended by the idea of Donald Trump as POTUS. Not his words. Not his vulgarity. Him. And every phony thing about him. Yes he's boorish. But it isn't his boorishness that offends. It's that he's a phony — like Hillary — a corrupt politician and demagogue.
The only difference is that Hillary is a known quantity — corrupt, deceitful, traitorous and wrong.
Trump is a corrupt, deceitful, wrong pig in a poke.
@ David Ragsdale ,thanks for your nice words, and your apologies are accepted.
But Trump is not going to win the election. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings.
"Can we deduce that Meade's mother was not offended by GW Bush and Obama, but voted for Romney because he is more of a gentleman in terms of breeding and associations? Would she have supported the Confederacy because the South was more genteel and refined, except if you were a slave?"
No. You have it almost exactly backwards.
"Trump is a corrupt, deceitful, wrong pig in a poke."
I don't think Trump is corrupt and the people who do business with him don't think so either, just the opposite for they like and respect him. You haven't done your due diligence.
30 years ago I was directly examining a 7 year-old girl victim in the prosecution of sexual abuse by her father and brothers. When I asked her about her father "Did he fuck you?", and repeatedly asked her similar questions - and eliciting answers - using even far more graphic and vulgar language, the 60+ year-old judge was extremely displeased and called a recess.
The judge hit the ceiling in chambers. I explained that this was the language the girl used in talking about it and I felt it necessary to present her testimony in her own words, instead of what would have been stilted, unnatural and even confusing language to her.
He let me continue, but with gritted teeth.
Bob Boyd said...
"So is Adams slinking back into Trump's camp now, thinking the KKK storm has blown over?"
Excellent question. My guess is yes.
Beldar:
In what state do juries decide divorce cases?
In NE, they are to the court only. I've never heard of a jury deciding a divorce case.
Same deal with tort cases against the government. Judge only. Juries would be unfair thinking taxes would go up.
"Trump is [not] corrupt and the people who do business with him don't think so either, just the opposite for they like and respect him."
Who said that — the people who have been cheated by Donald Trump? No, Donald Trump.
David Begley,
Only Texas forces citizens from doing something productive with their day to sit in judgment on someone else's marriage.
Conrad Hilton had two sons, the oldest called Nicky was the one who married Elizabeth Taylor and couldn't live up to his father's expectations becoming an alcoholic and dying young but the younger and more able brother was named Barron after his mother's maiden name. Barron Hilton built an expensive first class Hotel casino in Atlantic City and then was denied a gambling license by New Jersey and Trump came to his rescue by buying his hotel and paying the full price. Trump's youngest son is named Barron and I wonder if he is named him after Barron Hilton.
"Who said that — the people who have been cheated by Donald Trump? No, Donald Trump."
I suggest you do your own due diligence.
Meade,
Were you also bothered by Romney's draft dodging?
Clinton, Cheney, Romney, and Trump all dodged the draft.
Sanders obtained a conscientious objector exemption.
Kerry served and McCain served in Viet Nam.
Gore served as a military photographer in Viet Nam.
W. served in the TANG.
Quayle served in the Indiana National Guard.
"Salty language" demonstrates intellectual laziness and zero creativity.
"We only know the soaring rhetoric of our Founding Fathers but they often spoke to the Brits in most ribald & raunchy form."
At one time, some of those same founders praised General Arnold with soaring rhetoric.
I don't know if Trump is a corrupt pig in a poke, but I know he's a pig in a poke.
@mccullough, yes, but I'm unaware that any of them are running for POTUS.
Sorry Meade but if your mother is offended by another person's very existence then your mother is the problem. Not offended by his behavior or actions or threats or promises or words but by him just for living?
"I don't know if Trump is a corrupt pig in a poke, but I know he's a pig in a poke."
Good point. Hillary is corrupt. Trump is just one of her many corruptors.
Meade said...
"I don't know if Trump is a corrupt pig in a poke, but I know he's a pig in a poke."
Good point. Hillary is corrupt. Trump is just one of her many corruptors.
3/9/16, 4:37 PM
Well Meade in your considered opinion who is worst? Or he offers the bribe or he who takes the bribe? Or he who takes the bribe and won't stay bought and has to be repeatedly bought.
"Trump is [not] corrupt and the people who do business with him don't think so either, just the opposite for they like and respect him."
Here is what I said.
"I don't think Trump is corrupt and the people who do business with him don't think so either, just the opposite for they like and respect him."
So Meade is supporting Hillary as the GREATER of two evils?
Good philosophy! I'm sure Cthulu would approve.
"what exactly do they find so terrible about Donald Trump?"
1. His obvious overtures to white nationalists. (Too many to document here; use Google.)
2. His complete ignorance of world affairs.
3. His complete ignorance of macroeconomics.
4. His cynical lying to his fans about what he can get done without seizing total power and becoming a dictator.
5. His forming of a personality cult in which he has asked his followers to swear allegiance to him personally (an obscene reworking of the Pledge of Allegiance).
6. His total disinterest in individual liberty.
Notice I didn't say anything about the strong language that Trump uses. I would still detest him even if he were smoothly eloquent. It's not his language that offends me. It's him.
Meade- but you are most welcome.
& of course you don't at all know that.
This is exactly the problem with pundits, either paid or amateur, such as yourself.
Lack of humility, which is so funny because that's really why you don't like Trump.
You actually, none of us really, have any idea who's going to win the election.
Because you cannot tell the future.
And this has been a huge problem for the GOP. They've nominated 'safe bets' and most (including Bush in 2000) have lost.
The Dems swing for the fences often, they take risks- which is why they win so much.
We conservatives have pretty much lost everything at this point, so I'm willing to take a big risk at this point.
Because the truth is, we don't know.
Tim in Vermont- I'd gladly lose one Republican vote in Vermont if it picks up some union dude in Michigan.
There is such a fundamental corrupt dishonesty all around.
It is ok for our politicos to sing sweet and pleasant words, full of courtesy in public, yet steal and manipulate and vulgarize in private to all our loss.
It's like the Court of Versailles!
As long as your manners were impeccable, you could get away with anything.
@ Meade
Trump has many, many flaws, perhaps too many. But credit where credit is due, he stands up to political correctness.
For example, he wouldn't let Tapper tell him what he has to say and who he has to "disavow", etc. He didn't embrace any racists, he just insisted he would be deciding what he will say and what he won't, not the media, not his opponents.
When he did that, Adams ran for the tall grass thinking this is going to blow up and I don't want to be anywhere near Trump when it does.
Political correctness is a serious issue facing our nation. Because of it, we can't have an honest debate. IMO much of the Trump phenomenon is due to his fearlessness in the face of PC.
Sometimes he's offensive in the process, but he's right to behave as if to say "Watch me! I won't cower in the face of these slanderous false accusations and if I don't, neither do you." If the Republicans can't figure out a way to stand up to the R word, they might as well stay home, because the Dems will beat them with it every time.
Meade out of curiosity did your mom vote for Lyndon Johnson or Bill Clinton?
@cubanbob, no. I'm sure she has never voted for a Democrat.
When she was growing up, most of the racists, bigots, communists and demagogues were in the Democratic Party. Johnson and Clinton and now Trump were some of the holdovers.
Meade,
I was just ticking off the list of all presidents or nominees for President or Vice President who were eligible for the draft or fought in Viet Nam. I could be wrong but I think this is the last election in which Viet Nam vets or those eligible for the draft before it was ended will run for president.
The two combat Viet Nam vets lost. So did the miltary photographer in Viet Nam, although he was VP. The national guard produced a VP and a P. And a draft dodger was President and another was Vice President.
Given the Viet Nam war's devastation and strong division it caused it society, it's just interesting to see how it played out at the presidential level. No Viet Nam veteran has been elected president.
Meade said "Nothing offends me." Truly? I can't say the same. I'm not easily offended but I do admit that some things offend me a lot.
When she was growing up, most of the racists, bigots, communists and demagogues were in the Democratic Party.
Exactly. This is what my father and grandfather told me, see my post above. Actually I think this is still the case.
@Bob Boyd wrote: "Political correctness is a serious issue facing our nation. Because of it, we can't have an honest debate."
Words have synonyms, many of which are not offensive. If you can't make your arguments without using different words, that is a failure of imagination, education, and intellect.
"If the Republicans can't figure out a way to stand up to the R word, they might as well stay home, because the Dems will beat them with it every time."
With respect, Bob, that is bull. One stands up to excess political correctness with more and better speech and fearlessly examining fact in search for what is true. Not by simply being boorish. Trump is a Anti-Political Correctness Warrior phony.
"Meade said "Nothing offends me." Truly?"
Some things make me sick to my stomach. Politics don't. And neither do words.
Meade,
Does your mother refuse her social security and medicare checks?
Because these programs were enacted by men who used demagoguery to get elected.
So it seems a bit churlish of her-through-you to condemn us who would like a real border
and less non-stop-massive-immigration-to-keep-wages-down
so that we might get our own checks, for supporting a man who might use a little demagoguery to advance these goals.
Unless of course, again, your mom refuses social security and medicate, which were built by FDR and Johnson and their Demagoguery which won them elections.
Or unless she'd like to pass us her checks.
Easy to be so prim and proper when the programs that support your life are already baked in the cake.
Thanks!
Meade said...
"If the Republicans can't figure out a way to stand up to the R word, they might as well stay home, because the Dems will beat them with it every time."
With respect, Bob, that is bull. One stands up to excess political correctness with more and better speech and fearlessly examining fact in search for what is true. Not by simply being boorish. Trump is a Anti-Political Correctness Warrior phony.
3/9/16, 5:20 PM
Should it come down to it the dilemma for decent people like your mom is do I vote for that vulgar, boorish buffoon of a man or the corrupt, mendacious felonious treasonous woman? Some choice but there it is.
Also, re what the Democratic Party was to my parents' generation: when my dad and mom were kids old Civil War veterans (Union Army, of course) often came to their schools in Aurora Illinois to talk to the students about the war. My dad recalled being told by these veterans about the black slaves who attached themselves to the Union Army as the latter advanced through the South. They were often in wretched condition but they were happy because they were free. The people to whom they had been enslaved and whom the Union soldiers were fighting were all without exception Democrats or supporters of the Democrat Party. My parents and grandparents in large measure formed their opinion of the Democrat Party from these reminiscences by Union Army veterans.
Political correctness isn't about not making racial or sexist slurs.
It's about certain topics closed for debate and calling people racist for addressing those issues. You can't talk about the disintegration of the black family or the effect on blacks, who have lower IQs, of an economy that rewards high cognitive ability while making physical labor jobs more obsolete. You can't talk about illegal immigration without being called a racist even if you try and pint out that it has had a devastating effect on blacks, especially black teenagers.
These are just a few examples.
Political correctness not only silences people, it requires them to engage in virtue signaling or public displays of fealty to issues like gay marriage that many people may privately not support. People feel compelled to minimize their religious beliefs (unless they are Muslim) for fear of being questioned as to their positions on abortion or gay marriage or other social issues.
It is getting oppressive. It is not physical intimidation but it is social and economic intimidation and it needs to stop. Or their is going to be a very cold civil war in this country
Some things make me sick to my stomach. Politics don't. And neither do words.
Okay. To me that's a distinction without a difference in the sense that being made sick to your stomach is a variant or manifestation of being highly offended. But I get your point. As for me, politics can and often do make me sick to my stomach. Words don't but the people saying them and the context in which they are said can and often do make me sick to my stomach.
"One stands up to excess political correctness with more and better speech and fearlessly examining fact in search for what is true. Not by simply being boorish."
I'm not saying Trump's way is the only way or the right way. He's just the only one doing it and people are applauding him for it. They love it like fresh air.
I certainly hope someone will do it better once they see it can be done. It takes more guts to be the first guy to jump off the high rock into the water than to be the second or third.
I'm not a Trump-supporter, but I am a Trump-supporter supporter.
"Because you cannot tell the future." But the poli sci prediction models have gotten pretty good.
"Should it come down to it the dilemma for decent people like your mom is do I vote for that vulgar, boorish buffoon of a man or the corrupt, mendacious felonious treasonous woman? Some choice but there it is."
That potential dilemma will demand a decision on November 8. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. 8 months from now. Meanwhile, either help Republicans choose a candidate who can actually win on Nov. 8. (Trump cannot win.) Or else, do what I plan to do and help knock Clinton out in your state's primary.
But everyone's first priority, whether you are voting D or R, should be to defeat Clinton.
Mocking the disabled is more offensive than coarse language. Mocking a POW is more offensive than coarse language. Trump supporters think he's Teflon because they themselves don't care what he says or does. They're about to find out that everything has in fact stuck to him.
Without answering my question Meade affirms that his mother will vote for Trump regardless of offense because she will never vote for a Democrat. Meade, the following is, I admit, a hope rather than a solid prediction: Trump will beat Hillary like a bass drum.
"I'm not a Trump-supporter, but I am a Trump-supporter supporter."
Gotcha. I guess you could say I'm a Trump-supporter, just not a Trump-for-president supporter.
Lol, Meade. I'm voting for Bernie next week to wound Hillary any way I legally can. Plus my 8-year-old daughter like him and is sad Ben Carson dropped out.
Of course Meade's mother is right to be offended, she sounds like a wise woman. It should be offensive to most people that such a blowhard ignorant, narcissist, misogynist, bigoted fraud is running for the highest office in the land in the most powerful country on earth. It's offensive that leaders of other nations are expressing concern that someone such as Trump could get so far the in the Presidential process. The cursing and derogatory statements toward others are just one more reason to be offended. The man is a walking offense.
How dare any of these people judge another by his or her language? Bigots and haters.
"I'm not a Trump-supporter, but I am a Trump-supporter supporter."
And some of us can't be athletes but we all can be athletic supporters.
The closer it gets to the election and the more Trump beats up on Hillary, the more women are going to be offended on behalf of Clinton, despite her negatives. He can't help himself, he is a boorish bully and he will display that with flying colors when Hillary gets under his notoriously thin skin. It won't be hard for Hillary to make him look really bad, worse than he already looks to women now. Who knows, there may actually be a significant number of Republican women who end up voting for Hillary or sit out the election.
Meade, Gardener/Concern Troll.
Amanda,
Other nations are worried that Trump will re-do trade agreements and make them slay their own dragons in the Middle East. They don't care about his boorish behavior. They are worried someone who is a nationalist and not a globalist will be president of the US.
Trump is going to get a higher share of the male vote than Hillary will of the female vote
"Meade, Gardener/Concern Troll."
Nope. Just a plain old ordinary troll.
"I guess you could say I'm a Trump-supporter, just not a Trump-for-president supporter."
Not possible. Trump-for-president is the one, only and essential Trump. That could change again in a few months or 8+ years, but right now it's all you have.
The closer it gets to November and after seeing one on one interaction in the debates between Trump and Hillary, the more people especially women, will be offended by his antics. He can try to act Presidential for only a very short amount of time and then the real Trump always pops out, like a carbuncle on his ass.he is always on the verge of spewing forth. Ew, that was actually sort of offensive, my apologies.
"The only difference is that Hillary is a known quantity — corrupt, deceitful, traitorous and wrong. "
And that's the lesser of two evils? Yikes.
Perhaps Jeb should have gotten a closer look. He seems like such a nice man. Or that nice Mr. Kasich. He's been a great president of Ohio.
McCullough,
Maybe these national leaders are worried about the man's mental stability and ignorance.
All presidents, or nearly all*, are pigs in pokes. And they are all in over their heads when they first get in office. Which one can learn and adapt? Has Hillary ever learned and adapted, other than falsely?
*In my lifetime only Eisenhower had presidential level experience.
Amanda said...
The closer it gets to the election and the more Trump beats up on Hillary, the more women are going to be offended on behalf of Clinton, despite her negatives.
That's right, Amanda. The poor thing will deserve the sympathy too. It's the Jack Nicholson description of a woman. "Imagine a man and take away the reason and accountability."
It's great for a woman to run for president. Just don't be too tough on her, you boorish boys.
@ David Begley (3/9/16, 4:16 PM): In Texas, juries decide disputed questions of fact, of which there can be many in a divorce case. That includes resolving factual disputes like whether one spouse has committed "fraud upon the community" by using community property funds (like current job income) for purposes that didn't benefit the community (like the husband's boat and accompanying mistress). Judges then apply the law to the facts as found by the jury. Judges also have a special and larger role in resolving child custody and related matters. In actual practice, though, the additional costs of a jury trial make them impractical for all but the largest and most bitterly contested divorce cases (of which, this was one).
Texas also still elects its judges in partisan races. Sometimes that results in embarrassments, but it actually allowed us to rescue our judicial system in the 1980s by ousting a ton of corrupt judges whose allegiances were to the plaintiffs' personal injury contingent-fee bar whose massive contributions made many "public servants" into multimillionaires. My friend and former colleague Tom Phillips, who became the longest-serving Chief Justice in the history of the Texas Supreme Court, was the harbinger and ultimately the leader of that rescue.
It's a lousy system, but Texans think it's the least worst alternative.
Amanda said...
Of course Meade's mother is right to be offended, she sounds like a wise woman. It should be offensive to most people that such a blowhard ignorant, narcissist, misogynist, bigoted fraud is running for the highest office in the land in the most powerful country on earth. It's offensive that leaders of other nations are expressing concern that someone such as Trump could get so far the in the Presidential process. The cursing and derogatory statements toward others are just one more reason to be offended. The man is a walking offense.
3/9/16, 5:46 PM"
The man maybe a walking offense but unlike her he isn't a walking criminal offense. No doubt foreign leaders prefer Hillary. With her aversion to being held accountable for anything she will conduct all of her government business on private servers making life for their intelligence service a piece of cake and very cost effective not to mention so blackmail-able. What is offensive is that the second major political party can field a felonious traitor as its presumptive nominee for president.
David, I actually think the more he bullies her, the worse he looks, so I say he should go right ahead and be himself, bully away! I'm sure Hillary will tolerate it just fine. She will use it to her advantage and he will play right into her hands. Being tough in a debate and being a bully are two different things. His over the top responses will only draw attention to his misogynistic ways. He is a known bully toward women, drawing attention to their looks, Carly Fiorini. He makes vulgar reference to bodily functions like menses, Megyn Kelley. He called a female attorney disgusting when she had to take a break to pump breast milk. He made references to Hillary's bathroom break and called it "disgusting", does he think his poo doesn't stink? That he will have a female opponent will only hurt him, because of his own vulgar, crass bullying ways. Clinton WILL capitalize on that behavior.
Blogger Amanda said...
The closer it gets to the election and the more Trump beats up on Hillary, the more women are going to be offended on behalf of Clinton, despite her negatives. He can't help himself, he is a boorish bully and he will display that with flying colors when Hillary gets under his notoriously thin skin. It won't be hard for Hillary to make him look really bad, worse than he already looks to women now. Who knows, there may actually be a significant number of Republican women who end up voting for Hillary or sit out the election.
3/9/16, 5:53 PM
Its endearing in a way that Amanda thinks all woman are going to vote in lockstep for a champagne communist grifter and felonious traitor out of solidarity with the sisterhood.
No matter how bad Trump can look, he will never look as bad as that corrupt felon and traitor. Amanda you do realize that a significant number of men who might otherwise vote Democrat might sit it out or end up voting for Trump (or perhaps even Cruz) when confronted with Clinton's corruption and criminality.
Amanda,
They are worried the US is going to change its bullshit trade and diplomatic and military policies.
The Western Europeans are globalist fools that are ruining their continent through their fecklessness. Their militaries are so weak they couldn't even topple Libya without our help and then begged for our combat troops to end the civil war in Syria since they are so dependent on the ME oil but can't stop the invasion of millions of refugees from the dark ages. And Russia is adjusting the dials on that civil war by bombing Rebels and civilians just enough to drive more refugees into Europe while taking it easy on ISIS because Europe is dependent on not only Middle East oil but Russian oil.
Mexico is worried that we're going to close down their factories and stop the flow of their poorest lowest skilled citizens q Roos the borders.
China is worried that their command economy is disintegrating and that a change in our trade policies will mortally wound them and the middle class in that country created by the US and will lead to a revolution since they are due for another one.
It's good they are worried. Time the US looked out for itself again
Cubanbob, I don't for a minute see women voting in lockstep. My interest concerns women who will break away from their usual voting preferences due to Trump's personaality and behavior. If a largish enough a percentage of women voters end up staying home or cross over and vote for Hillary, it could mean a loss for Trump. You may think that the female vote isn't important, but perhaps you forget that females make up one half of voters.
@ Michael K (3/9/16, 3:59 PM), who wrote, "This is a revolution. It's going to be messy...."
Messy is different from vulgar. George Washington was a revolutionary, and the American Revolution was incredibly "messy," pitting neighbors against neighbors quite literally (as in, hanging each other). But George Washington wasn't vulgar, he was magnificent.
Trump has been vulgar for his entire life; it's not a hat he put on for purposes of leading a revolution, it's who he is. He says he can be "the most politically correct person you've ever seen" -- which ought to trouble you greatly -- but that's just another empty lie: He's never demonstrated that, and indeed, he's consistently demonstrated his vulgarity since he was a boy who had to be sent to military academy as a disciplinary problem.
He is shrewd at suckering people to get away with his vulgarity, and of course, it helps to inherit a colossal fortune with which to insulate yourself from social or other consequences that deter most of us from being as vulgar as our worst angels might permit.
"Why is [Trump] the only one who has been willing to take on these issues?" That's ridiculous. Immigration, for example, has been a hotly contested issue within both parties and across the partisan aisle since at least the 1950s. Google "bracero program." Why do you believe Trump when he makes this demonstrably stupid and untrue claim, that he's the only one "raising any issues"? While Ted Cruz was working with House Republicans to kill the Obama-Reid-Schumer[-and-yes-Rubio] Gang of Eight bill, Donald Trump was writing big checks to five members of the Gang of Eight. If Donald Trump told you he was the first person to insist that the sun rises in the East, would you credit him with that honor?
"Again, Roger Simon has a a question you should answer."
Roger is a friend, and we've corresponded directly about Trump. I won't betray the confidentiality of our correspondence, but suffice it to say that I believe Roger is being more than a little cute here, and Roger understands exactly why I despise Trump, based on things I knew about him and his well-earned reputation in the business community. He's neither liked nor respected in the business community; to the contrary, his reputation is as someone who re-trades every deal; as someone who deliberately makes himself a pain to deal with by fighting over minutia; as someone who sues at the drop of a hat and threatens to sue at least twenty times for every threat he makes; as someone who hires blustery but not very sharp lawyers who make a lot of noise before capitulating quietly; as someone who has to pay lots more on his settlements because he's always buying a confidentiality clause to bury his skeletons; who's squandered several fortunes; who's always overpromised and under-performed; who's shameless; and who has dragged his entire empire through the bankruptcy courts in four separate waves.
He's not a good businessman, but he is a superb con artist. He's genuinely evil, and I don't choose that word lightly.
I believe that Roger knows and understands all this, but Roger supports Trump anyway, which I believe is a form of mental illness. Unfortunately it's not unique to Roger, but since I'm his friend, I hope he gets well soon.
Amanda has set her concern troll phaser to full-retard!
And Cubanbob, I think you overestimate Democratic men who would be turned off by voting for Hillary if they have to. If the choice is between Trump and Hillary, my bet is that the great majority of Democratic males will vote for Hillary.
----------------
"Its endearing in a way that Amanda thinks all woman are....."
This comment of yours is condescending and a big sexist. Just a head's up, you dont want to be Trumpish, now do you?
A good many of the offended, riding high on their high horses, voted for Obama because he is half black. There can be no other justification in hindsight and only very weak justification at the time, at the two times. And that says a lot about them, up there on their high horses, offended and sad.
Fabi,
How old are you? You sound about ten years old here. Your schoolyard taunts only diminish you, no one else.
Blogger Amanda said...
Cubanbob, I don't for a minute see women voting in lockstep. My interest concerns women who will break away from their usual voting preferences due to Trump's personaality and behavior. If a largish enough a percentage of women voters end up staying home or cross over and vote for Hillary, it could mean a loss for Trump. You may think that the female vote isn't important, but perhaps you forget that females make up one half of voters.
3/9/16, 7:00 PM
And you seem to forget the other half of the voters are men and if a largish enough percentage of them are given a choice between a buffoonish, vulgar huckster or a mendacious grifter and felonious traitor the men will choose the lesser of the two evils-Trump
You have to laugh at GOPers railing against Trump for benefitting from his father. The people who gave us W, a bum who didn't even start to grow up until he turned 40, and who would never have attended Andover, Yale, Harvard or been a "success" in bidnesz without all his family connections much less been elected governor of Texas or president.
Obama is self made. Clinton is self made. Reagan was self made. Nixon was self made/. Ike was self made. Truman, Hoover, Cooldige, etc.
All of a sudden the GOP gives a shit about merit. Lol
Beldar
Would be curious about your thoughts on why Barrick and Beal and Ichan have come out in support of Trump. You think their business judgment is worse than yours, or what? They have done actual business with him. You?
Cubanbob,
Looking at the percentage (50%) of white conservative males who absolutely hate Trump at this time, I have a real problem believing that they will vote for him. They may not vote for Hillary, I suspect they will stay home. I think you are overly optimistic about the males who will come out to vote for Trump in the general. But we shall see who is right, won't we?
Project much, dear?
@Meade: My mother is offended by Trump as well but that's not going to stop me from voting for him if I get a chance. I don't know where I'd be if my mother influenced my political choices.
@Amanda: Trump's negatives with women are equally offset by Hillary's negatives with men. I'm surprised no one has polled this and presented it in an honest way.
Did I miss the citation that supported the claim: 50% of white conservative males absolutely hate Trump?
Ted Cruz is ripping Donald Trump to shreds on Megyn Kelley show. This is only the beginning, wait until Trump gets the nomination, ya ain't seen nuthin' yet. The DNC will finish him off.
Trump channels raw alienation so that hopefully that alienation won't have to be expressed as insurrection.
All one has to do to get an idea of the percentages is read this blog's comments sections. The anti Trump sentiment is pretty strong among male commenters here and seems to be getting stronger by the day.
Amanda: "All one has to do to get an idea of the percentages is read this blog's comments sections."
#TheScienceIsSettled!
Feminists needs accurate statistics like a fish needs a bicycle.
Very rigorous, Amanda. I expected nothing less, given your always-rational assessments and bias-free observations. I'm especially fond of your ability to discern race and viewpoint taxonomy via commentary. We'll discuss random sampling another day.
If this blog's male commenters in any way mirror conservative and Republcan males in the greater population, one can safely extrapolate. It's not rocket science. Are male commenters here not representative of male conservatives in general? I think they are.
As noted: we'll discuss random sampling another day. First rule of holes, too.
And there is no rational reason to believe male commenters here are not representative of male conservatives nation wide. You Althouse commenters aren't that special or unique, there is nothing that distinguishes you from male conservatives anywhere.
The Trumpists absorb all these calumnies and insults as Madame Defarge did. She took in all the injustice she saw, and put it down in her knitting. On the coming day of the tumbrils all will pour out if the never- forgetting internet, and will be repaid in full.
It is a modern convenience in that the list of the condemned need not be taken down in stitches.
So quit digging Fabi. Your assertion that males here are some unique brand of conservative is bogus. Your comments remind me of Trump's stupid bluster, full of hot air and no rational thought.
Yet another injustice for the Trumpists knitting down the list of their enemies -
Mike Ditka, having come out for Trump, has been kicked off ESPN.
The villain here obviously is Disney, owner of ESPN, already in Trump trouble on the H1b matter. Now Ditka. Soon coming to some Trump rallies if I don't miss my guess.
Those tumbrils are going to be Yuge.
I never asserted that males here are "some unique brand of conservative". To suggest that I did is clearly false. Move on.
@ Michael (3/9/16, 7:11 PM), who asked: "Would be curious about your thoughts on why Barrick and Beal and Ichan have come out in support of Trump. You think their business judgment is worse than yours, or what? They have done actual business with him. You?"
I can't speak from personal experience about any of those but Icahn. I've never represented Icahn or any of his companies, but I was part of the legal team representing Boone Pickens throughout the 1980s, and Icahn and his affiliates were frequently involved in or around the margins of several cases I worked on; I've dealt with his lawyers a few times.
Icahn is in many ways the kind of sharp, shrewd, and successful businessman that Trump pretends to be, and I respect his abilities. BUT: He's not famous for building companies or creating jobs; to the contrary, Icahn's original reputation was as a corporate raider, sometimes greenmailer, and superb bottom-fisher. Icahn uses the bankruptcy laws -- actually, all laws, including tax and securities laws -- very aggressively, and he's had lots of scrutiny, and occasional heat, from the SEC. HIs reputation in the business community reflects all that history, and he's got sharp elbows. But he's undoubtedly very successful.
Icahn is emphatically not, however, representative of the American business community generally. And he and Trump are thick as thieves, with a long and complicated business history. Icahn-controlled entities were secured creditors in the last wave of Trump bankruptcies, for example -- meaning that Icahn had mortgages and security interests as Trump's senior secured creditor. In the bankruptcy, Icahn ended up with his pick of the properties, after shedding leases, labor agreements, and other contracts that he thought unprofitable, so Icahn made out pretty well. The unsecured creditors, by contrast -- the utilities, the laundry and food supply companies, the florists, all the companies whom the casinos had hired as contractors -- got well and truly screwed, ending up with less than a penny on the dollar.
Who's the puppet and who's the puppeteer? I'm guessing Icahn is no one's puppet; Trump repeatedly promises, though, to put Icahn into his cabinet in some capacity (Treasury? Chief Trade Negotiator? Co-President? It's not clear. I do think Icahn's about 500 times as shrewd as Trump, who's gone bankruptcy so often not because it was part of a money-making strategy, but because he's an awful businessman who over-pledged and overborrowed and cross-collateralized everything.
But would I take at face value Icahn's public assessments of Trump while Trump's running for President? Who would possibly be that naive?
Oh -- yeah, right: Tons and tons of Trump supporters who don't know that Icahn is a sketchy figure himself, and don't really care.
You most certainly did Fabi. You don't even know what you asserted did you? You have proven yourself an unworthy opponent. Debate with you is too easy.
@chicklet, from the latest ABC/WaPo poll:
"Clinton leads Trump by 21 points among women –- the same, as it happens, as her advantage over Sanders among women for the Democratic nomination. That compares to a non-significant +5 for Trump among men, 48-43 percent. Trump had led by 15 points among men in September, when he and Clinton were nearly even overall."
I'll try one more time and see if you can absorb the nuance, Amanda. Your original claim that 50% of white conservative males absolutely hating Trump based upon your observation of the blog comments here could be true. Your original claim could also be false. Because it is difficult, if not impossible, to categorize 'conservative' or 'absolute hate' with any granularity, it renders your claim unknowable, hence in doubt. Furthermore, to assume that commenters here are a representative sample of the population is highly speculative and the burden of proof rests upon you. I could go on, but I'm not sure that you can follow.
My mom is 70. Highly intelligent, a great family matriarch, and a long career as a registered nurse.
She thinks Trump is hilarious, and doesn't ride on the fake righteous indignation train. But then again, she's Irish.
I am absolutely amazed that we think our American culture and climate is any better than Trump's words and behavior.
Clinton got blown in the Oval Office and got caught. John Edwards knocked up his mistress on the campaign trail and tried assigning the kids paternity to his campaign manager. Denny Hastert paid hush money to a former high school wrestler he abused. John Kennedy took his college aged mistress on gov't sponsored road trips. Ted Kennedy left a woman in a submerged car and did nothing to help her, while he first thought about saving his political career. Carlos Danger is still married to Hillary's closest personal assistant.
Give me a break. Let's get over ourselves.
As for true conservative Republicans, a prime example of proper demeanor, the senior Senator from Utah, Orrin Hatch. Who is on record berating Microsoft for not bribing politicians.
I don't know, it seems to me that complaints about demeanor are, well, stupid, if they aren't evil. It's an obvious smokescreen for the obviously and indubitably corrupt.
This is typical of Icahn's brushes with the law: FBI, SEC Probe Trading of Carl Icahn, Billy Walters, Phil Mickelson: Insider-Trading Investigation Began in 2011 With Unusual Trades in Clorox.
Think Icahn might have a little trouble getting confirmed in the Senate?
Hatch has been a senator for almost 40 years. We need to amend the Constitution to term limit Congress.
You want an example of someone universally respected in the business community?
Try Jack Welch, former CEO of General Electric.
Welch has endorsed, and enthusiastically supports, Ted Cruz.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/03/gop-beltway-elites-say-they-may-vote-for-hillary-clinton-over-trump/
Fox News Channel anchor Bret Baier said it’s possible that some Republicans will vote for Hillary Clinton just to stop Donald Trump from taking over the party. "Listen, there are Republicans in Washington who are privately saying that already,” Baier told TheWrap on Monday. “Maybe some don’t publicly say it, but I think there are some who are that adamant about it who would".
Trump is the bastard America wants, but it needs. A bastard to lead us against the other bastards out there. Now is not a time for niceties.
Batman references. Seriously? You're comparing Donald J. Trump to Batman?
"Listen, there are Republicans in Washington who are privately saying that already,”
So that's a couple dozen more votes for Hillary, tops.
I will say it again. I would vote for Sanders over Trump if the election were today. And it might be Sanders. If you look at the numbers, Sanders beats Trump by more than Hillary. Now you can certainly say that polls are over-rated at this time and not predictive of the general, but 1 in 20 people, 5%, would vote for Bernie, but not for Hillary over Trump. That's ten percent of what you need to win right there.
Trump is a sloppy thinker as evidenced by his sloppy language. But I would still vote for him over Hillary. But Trump is not owned by donors, like Sanders. To me right now, that is the most important thing.
I'm not offended by cursing but I find it coarse and irritating. Occasionally you run across people who use swear words in interesting ways to season their speech and writing, but most people just splatter paint with them.
None of this has anything to do with my dislike of Trump and I haven't seen anyone argue that this particular issue was disqualifying. Its a straw man argument by Adams.
Amanda said...
Cubanbob,
Looking at the percentage (50%) of white conservative males who absolutely hate Trump at this time, I have a real problem believing that they will vote for him. They may not vote for Hillary, I suspect they will stay home.
No they did that the last teo times and look what we wound up with.
Hillary will never be president.
Meade said...
My 90 year-old greatest generation wise beyond her years mother is offended.
Then she should fucking vote for someone else.
Amanda said...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/03/gop-beltway-elites-say-they-may-vote-for-hillary-clinton-over-trump/
Fox News Channel anchor Bret Baier said it’s possible that some Republicans will vote for Hillary Clinton just to stop Donald Trump from taking over the party. "Listen, there are Republicans in Washington who are privately saying that already,” Baier told TheWrap on Monday. “Maybe some don’t publicly say it, but I think there are some who are that adamant about it who would".
Don't bet your vagina on it Amanda.
Beldar
Thank you for your comments on Ichan. I agree. But do take the time to learn something about the other two. You are displaying a near hysterical "fear" of Trump. A kind of lefty fear that soars on the winds of emotion, up there above the ground.
"Civility Bullshit"?
I guess grandma will continue to be offended.
As a counter-point my 92 year old Father, a retired Army Major General, WWII, Korea and Vietnam veteran, believes Mr. Trump to be exactly the high colonic the nation needs.
Fine, and good for him.
Just to be clear: Scott Adams's assertion went like this:
"Let’s stop pretending that other adults are offended by language. That isn’t a thing.
We are offended ON BEHALF of people we imagine would be offended. But those people do not exist. Stop imagining offended people."
I talk with my mother several times a week. She exists. I'm not imagining at least one person who is offended by Trump.
Rusty, don't speak out of your ass and don't let your grip on your penis loose, lest you lose your mind.
Then you should fucking fuck yourself, Rusty.
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that. I'd have a whole bunch of nickels to give to people so they could go and buy a fucking sense of humor.
Amanda said...
Rusty, don't speak out of your ass and don't let your grip on your penis loose, lest you lose your mind.
Did I offend you?
Tough.
"If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that. I'd have a whole bunch of nickels to give to people so they could go and buy a fucking sense of humor."
Here's a nickel. Keep the change. You seem to need it.
"Here's a nickel. Keep the change. You seem to need it."
Not really. But thanks. Find your sense of humor yet?
LfuckingOL!
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