Jeb seemed to come prepared to deliver lines, but he can't put them across. I woke up this morning, and reading about the debate, I got a joke of Jeb's that drifted right by me last night. Something about him — I don't know what it is — makes me numb. Asked, "Why are you better qualified to deal with Vladimir Putin than Mr. Trump?," Bush said:
BUSH: Because I -- first of all, I know what I don't know. I know what I don't know. I would seek out, as I have, the best advice that exists. I won't get my information from the shows. I don't know if that's Saturday morning or Sunday morning. I don't know which one.At the time, I was just bored or embarrassed for him. He stumbled into the beginning. He said "I know what I don't know" twice. He stopped to smile in a way that perhaps his friends tell him is nice, but just seems hapless. Then he says he'll get advice from others. That's how he'll match Putin, by getting help from others? Then he pins something on Trump that annoys me, because it doesn't even sound true (and I've heard it before): he gets his "information from the shows." "The shows" — who talks like that? What shows?
Then comes the joke that I heard but didn't feel any motivation to crank through a half second of brain work to get: "I don't know if that's Saturday morning or Sunday morning." That was the third "I don't know" in a short answer, and it's immediately followed by another "I don't know," which seems like a nudge to get us to see the joke, but I didn't accept the nudge. I didn't care. I was still distracted into feeling defensive for Trump — Trump, who is completely capable of defending himself. But Trump doesn't deserve to be accused of getting his information from TV shows. Only in the morning, reading about the debate did the joke register: The Saturday morning shows are the cartoons.
Yeah, I remember. Back in the days when kids only had broadcast network shows to watch on TV and there was no cable, no video recordings, no internet, Saturday mornings were a special time for watching cartoons.
The question was "Why are you better qualified to deal with Vladimir Putin than Mr. Trump?" and he meanders his way to an unfair joke about cartoons. As if he's an entertainer. But the rap on Trump is supposed to be that Trump is only an entertainer. But if Trump had told the joke, I'd have heard a joke. Jeb just came across as bumbling and weak. When the subject was Putin!
IN THE COMMENTS: David reminds us of an interview in which Trump — asked "Who do you talk to for military advice right now?" — said "Well, I watch the shows. I mean, I really see a lot of great-- you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows and you have the generals and...."
I said:
I do remember him saying that, but I don't believe he has no advisers now. Jeb should have nailed him with a specific reference to that. "Trump says 'I watch the shows' -- Watch the shows!! -- The shows! I guess he meant the Sunday shows, but that's so shallow and simple-minded it might as well be the Saturday shows, the cartoons." That's too long. You have to hone it down. "Trump says 'I watch the shows' -- The shows! That's shallow and simple-minded. What shows? The cartoon shows? The man is a cartoon."Trump is vulnerable to this attack. Jeb is just so bad at delivering it. As I say in the post, his approach had me "feeling defensive for Trump" even though Trump "is completely capable of defending himself."
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५४ टिप्पण्या:
Watching Jeb is like watching the guy who just got fired cleaning out his desk, over and over. The unsuccessful attempt at upbeat game-face, the numbness that is hoped to appear as dignity.
All the while, people discreetly trying to nudge him to the door...
Bring back the Guillotine.
I am Laslo.
Saturday morning cartoons and "the nuclear triad" both take a bit of remembering and explaining to the under 50s.
Without political correctness there is only chaos, which means the insulting of idiot news readers and their audience.
Bush comes across like he doesn't really want to be in this race, but is in it because it's expected of him. After all, he's had a decade out of public office to prepare for this and still seems like he's rusty.
There's a lot to say about Trump's lack of fitness for the presidency, but we've got a crowd of competitors either too afraid to confront him or so inept at attacking that it really is no wonder he's still leading the field. If you can't take down Trump, how are you going to take down Hillary?
Ugh. The idea of a Clinton restoration is depressing. But the Republicans seem determined to make that happen. Here's looking towards 2020.
And Jeb's performance last night is widely acclaimed to be his best one ever. "He got under Trump's skin," is the gleefully repeated pundit's line this morning.
That's more proof that The Donald has gotten into Jeb's mind...the one where he doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Go back into the Cartoon world of Florida's Disneyland, little Jebbie. It's safe there with Daddy's team of advisors from 1990 all around you.
"This shall not stand" was Daddy's best line in 1990. Jeb now inserts, " Trump's win shall not stand." Walt Disney is back.
Did you at least get that the I know what I don't know was a Rumsfeld reference?
And the networks hardly show Saturday morning cartoons any more.
"an unfair joke" The problem was that it wasn't a very good joke and not well delivered, not that it was "unfair." The reaction shows what GOP candidates have to contend with. (And no, that's not a defensive defense of either Trump or Bush.)
I got Jeb's joke, his Saturday morning jab. He is a nice man and would make a great President in another time.
A vote for Bart Simpson is a vote for anarchy!
The cast of the Debate is like one of those Comic Book Super Teams, where you have Superman, and then all the others of lesser powers that Superman doesn't even really need around, they're just standing in the background of the comic-book panel trying not to look embarrassed at their third-rate status.
Ted Cruz: I'll let him be Batman. He actually does have some things in his Utility Belt.
Bring back the Guillotine.
I am Laslo.
I think Jeb is referencing back in August when Donald Trump says he gets "military advice from TV shows". If you search for that quote there are links to CNN, Breitbart and many others.
I don't think Althouse realizes that the "Chaos Candidate" was the moniker created by liberals, and made it's debut yesterday on the liberal blogs/news websites and comments sections.
Clearly a coordinated effort to stick Trump with meme he could not shake, similar to "I can see Russia from my house."
CHUCK TODD:
Who do you talk to for military advice right now?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I watch the shows. I mean, I really see a lot of great-- you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows and you have the generals and--
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/donald-trump-military-advice_55d0c12ae4b055a6dab09eb0
Trump is an idiot. But so is Jeb!
When Jeb delivered the line "Chaos candidate; chaos president;" all I could think of was the old "Get Smart" series.
2 hours, and this is all there was to comment about?
It seems I made the right decision and picked a book to read.
""an unfair joke" The problem was that it wasn't a very good joke and not well delivered, not that it was "unfair.""
That's true--its poor delivery reminded me of Jeb's brother making a smirking reference in one of his debates to not trusting reports in the NY Times, which one would get if they were following the Jayson Blair matter but which really wasn't such a widespread theme that the joke came off flat.
"Saturday morning shows" takes some mental leaping, as they don't show cartoons on Saturday mornings anymore, and you see news shows basically every day. Jeb might have had a point, but he did not make it.
I feel sorry for him. He's truly embarrassing to watch. He probably has some good substance in there somewhere but he starts a prepared statement, then remembers he left something out a sentence ago, randomly inserts it, and then continues on. It's just hard to watch.
"But Trump doesn't deserve to be accused of getting his information from TV shows."
if anyone deserves it, it's Trump. Listen to his line about Triad. He has no clue, so he doesn't into how he wouldn't go into Iraq, then nuclear is important. Nothing to do with Triad. He just doesn't know. About triad, or Iraq. His knowledge is pretty much skin deep.
I say we invite Putin over for some Borscht, then just give him hot dogs.
The ol' switcheroo.
I watched for a while and was struck by how quiet Trump was. Maybe I missed some fireworks but I think he has his organization set up and is past the time when he needed to raise hell. He met with Adelson to reassure him and ask him to stay neutral. I think it is Trump now and it is up to someone to beat him. I don't see anyone doing it.
It will be interesting. The first thing that will happen is that the media will go obviously insane and completely discredit what is left of their status in the public mind. Ariana Huffington will require months on Branson's cruise ship to recover.
Many said Jeb should've run in 2000. It was said the he was the better Bush candidate. Well, he chose not to run, G.W. did and won. Jeb's time passed fifteen years ago.
Go home, Jeb. You're wasting money on a losing media campaign and only embarrassing yourself.
On the split screen when Trump rolled his eyes saying something like, "Oh yeah Jeb, you're a tough guy", it just destroyed Bush. On the right side of the screen Bush looked like little boy blue.
Maybe the change is coming. Trump and Cruz first end the Bush dynasty, and then they end the Clinton dynasty. Let's hope.
@David
Thanks for posting that quote.
I do remember him saying that, but I don't believe he has no advisers now. Jeb should have nailed him with a specific reference to that. "Trump says 'I watch the shows' -- Watch the shows!! -- The shows! I guess he meant the Sunday shows, but that's so shallow and simple-minded it might as well be the Saturday shows, the cartoon." That's too long. You have to hone it down. "Trump says 'I watch the shows' -- The shows! That's shallow and simple-minded. What shows? The cartoon shows? The man is a cartoon."
Speaking of the Professor slipping up and almost liking Crazy Trump, everybody that knows him admits that he is a wonderful guy and has been a loyal friend to them. The man has a common touch and gets around making friends everywhere he goes, intentionally.
Compare that to Secret Keeper Hillary who has maybe two close friends that must accept being totally under her power.
"Mid-Life Lawyer said...
I feel sorry for him. He's truly embarrassing to watch. He probably has some good substance in there somewhere but he starts a prepared statement, then remembers he left something out a sentence ago, randomly inserts it, and then continues on. It's just hard to watch.
12/16/15, 8:36 AM"
It's a shame that this is our system -- that we pick Presidents on the basis of their ability to come across well on TV. It's a bit like selecting a barber by seeing which one has the best fantasy football team. Sure, it'd be nice to get good football advice while he's cutting your hair -- but it sort of misses the point.
Right now our best candidates are two first-term senators, a doctor, and a reality-TV star/real estate developer. I'm missing Scott Walker right about now, even though I have no idea where he stands on immigration and NSA surveillance.
You just know Hillary's going to be running on the length of her resume (aka credentialism) while taking zero responsibility for anything she actually did. It would be nice to run someone with a list of governing accomplishments to set against that. But you go to war with the army you have, or something like that.
"Many said Jeb should've run in 2000. It was said the he was the better Bush candidate. Well, he chose not to run, G.W. did and won. Jeb's time passed fifteen years ago."
Had his brother (and the GOP brand) not been toxic in 2008, that would have been a good year for him to run--just finishing two terms as a successful governor of the largest swing state. He still would have had to overcome "third term itch" as well as the "dynasty" thing which can even affect popular families. But eight years later and he comes across as a has-been, and rusty.
The best capsule assessment of Donald Trump I've yet seen. Well worth a look.
Blogger Brando said...
Bush comes across like he doesn't really want to be in this race, but is in it because it's expected of him.
I mentioned a couple weeks back that I had read the new GHW Bush by Meacham. Excellent book. One of the things that came out of the book is that GHW had no real ideas and no really strong desire to be president. He had been a Congressman, CIA, VP, and he just didn't know what else to do.
Michael K (I think) said that he had similar thoughts about Dubya based on his autobiography which I've not read.
I think you are right, Brando. JEB is running simply because he does not know what else to do. Dad and brother held the office, he thinks he should to.
How about this, Jeb, get a job! Something productive, outside politics.
Thankfully, he is down around 4% so we won't have him to kick around much longer.
John Henry
I thought Bush's best line was "you can't insult your way to President".
With Trump's statements during the debate and after about definitely no third party, along with his badmouthing of Hilary, will we see the end of fear?
Fear that Trump is only in this to elect Hilary that gets expressed here over and over and over.
I've never understood that fear or where it came from.
I was hoping that in light of recent statements they would ask the other candidates to pledge to support the nominee. It should have been especially asked of Kasich. He came pretty close to saying he would not support the Repo nominee if it was Trump a couple weeks ago.
Why is Trump held to a different standard?
John Henry
Blogger Ignorance is Bliss said...
Did you at least get that the I know what I don't know was a Rumsfeld reference?
I did.
I wondered, from the way he said it, if JEB! did.
John Henry
I watched for a while and was struck by how quiet Trump was. Maybe I missed some fireworks but I think he has his organization set up and is past the time when he needed to raise hell.
Interesting thought. Trump will "listen to the professionals" as they tell him he has gotten people's attention and now needs to reassure voters that he is serious and thoughtful. Which might work--or might turn him into Jeb.
I think there was a great example of shifting the Overton window last night.
All week people have been going on and on ad nauseum about how evil and krazy Trump is for wanting to ban all Muslims. people = media, pols, commenters, wife etc.
Then last night, in the panel before the debate, they started talking about Trump's crazy plan and how they would not ban all Muslims but would be OK with banning them from certain countries. One of the candidates last night spoke about this. Don't ban Indians, do ban Syrians or something like that.
If I were Trump, I would be rolling on the floor laughing. Classic negotiating strategy. Start by asking for the sun, moon and stars. Settle for what you really wanted all along which is just the sun.
John Henry
"I watch the shows that show when your world sleeps
I watch the shows run by you media creeps
I watch the shows that make the generals blather
I watch the shows, I watch the shows..."
Best moment I saw was that Saturday morning show versus Sunday morning show line.
And Trump for all his bluster showed on his face he can take a joke in good humor.
Watch the split screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV2cHXPlRHQ
If someone's going to say:
I don't know if that's Saturday morning or Sunday morning.
...he's got to do with a different pitch or other variance in his voice, so that it indicates that it a satirical comment.
Jeb Bush also didn't say that that (getting information from the shows) was something Donald Trump had said , meaning it came across as an original accusation that he, Jeb Bush, was making. In other words: Donald Trump, as president, is not likely to inform himself of anything, but would just pick up bits and pieces from TV political interview shows, which only half-informs you.
If it is an accusation, saying that you don't know if it's [the] Saturday morning or Sunday morning [shows] doesn't make any sense, because you're speaking about your own accusation.
If anything, it sounds like Jeb Bush doesn't know whether the interview shows are on on Sunday or on Saturday!
You probably disregarded it because it didn't make any sense.
When Bush attacked Trump. the split screen showed Trump making faces. Then Trump countered with a childish counter attack. He should have remained stoic and calm.
I thought "You can't insult your way to the presidency" would be the take-away this morning.
My hope is Trump begins attacking Hillary the way he goes after the others.
Hillary Rodham Clinton, on the other hand, is a great actress, although she can't improvise lines, and sometimes says her lines at the wrong cue. And the lines may make no sense.
I know what I don't know.
...sounds like an echo of something, maybe profound, that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, once said, during his second incarnation, but if you missed this (did you?) most people probably missed this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
It might be related to something else, though.
There's even a 2009 book: Know What You Don't Know: How Great Leaders Prevent Problems Before They Happen (paperback) Paperback
I'm not sure that Jeb Bush was talking about that - seeking out information that doesn't rise above the thermocline of truth - but probably something more prosaic.
After all he said:
I know what I don't know.
When what's really important is to find out the things you don't know that you don't know. Not the known unknowns, but the unknown (at least to you!) unknowns.
Jeb Bush was saying Donald Trump, if he was going to act in the future the way he was acting now, was going to pick up information on a "catch-as-catch-can" basis, even as president, and that's not good enough. You come up with wrong and unsound policy that way.
But he didn't say it well.
They made a big point of it last year when NBC was the last broadcast network to cancel Saturday morning cartoons. Granted, there's still round-the-clock cartoons on Cartoon Network and Nick Jr., but Sat morn is no longer the place for animation.
"My hope is Trump begins attacking Hillary the way he goes after the others."
The most frustrating thing about all this is that these dustups have completely taken the attention off Hillary, who had been dropping steadily in the polls earlier in the year every time attention landed on her. She's probably very relieved that right now all the news is on Trump vs. Cruz, Trump vs. Rubio, etc. The e-mail scandal is now in the mirror, and she can grandstand about how the GOP hates Muslims, racial minorities, etc. while she is out there looking out for little guy. Her team couldn't have written this script better themselves.
When the Dems debate and campaign against each other, you'll notice the big argument is over who is more opposed to the evil GOP, and who can best stand up to the evil GOP, and it seems they're at least on the same side in some existential struggle against evil. With the Republicans it's as though they've all never met anyone quite as odious as other Republicans, and the Dems become some afterthought until the nomination is clinched--by which time, everyone--particularly those watching the GOP nomination carefully--is disgusted with the entire party.
Perhaps it'll take a few more presidential losses for these people to get their act together.
they don't show cartoons on Saturday mornings anymore,
They don't!???
The problem is they don't show local TV listings in TV Guide any more, and even in the newspaper, any newspaper. The paper seems to contain only evening listings. I shold check the Sunday full week listings, but that is maybe not included any more, or doesn't cover Saturday mornings.
Cartoons, of course, are found on various cable channels, or on DVDs.
So what is on on Saturday mornings?
Maybe I should take a look at a several years old TV listing when and if I find it. I think there's one of them around. The TV Guide of March 14, 1992 still shows what seem to be cartoon shows (Muppet Babies, Garfield, Ninja Turtles - the ones on Channel 4 (WNBC) seem to be even labeled cartoons (Super Mario World, Wishkid,) And also on WABC.
There was a "Back to the Future" cartoon show on WCBS (Channel 2) at 11 am - also a "Where's Waldo" cartoon show at 11:30)
clint said...
I'm missing Scott Walker right about now, even though I have no idea where he stands on immigration and NSA surveillance.
I'm not sure whare he was on NSA surveillance, although he probably is on record somewhere about this, because it was a biig issue in Congress while he was in the race, but when he was last heard from on immigration, he said he was taking direction and instruction from the border guard's union.
"that we pick Presidents on the basis of their ability to come across well on TV. "
Yes, the unaccomplished Kennedy did that and the rest is history. I wonder how much better off we would have been if Kennedy had not been assassinated and made a saint?
Johnson destroyed the Democrats' ruling party and made them all wild eyed clowns.
Admiral Stockton (a great hero, and a brilliant man) began a statement on his beliefs at a debate by saying "Who are we, where are we going" and that was the end of him. Jeb Bush the same "I know what I don't know" etc. - I flinched. Maybe we should have Presidential seminars but, anyhow, if we are going to have debates the people who run should realize they need to be debaters. Debaters don't start without thoughtful references to the human condition and the mystery of man in the passive tense. They assert their main point right away and back it up if they have time. Which The Donald, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, Rand Paul know. Nor do debaters attack the judges or the audience - which (attacking the judges and audience) Kasich and Bush are doing before they make their points so that the people listening are hostile to Bush/Kasich points before they hear them if they even listen.
In a lot of ways I like Bush/Kasich; and they are making valuable points but they start with confusion - how presidential is that? how will they sell the hard stuff they know must be done if this is how they debate? It isn't as if the lame stream is going to help them explain themselves.
Rand Paul shows how to go about it; his point of view is unpopular but he knows and he gets his point across. You disagree with him; you don't sit there wondering what he's trying to say.
Laslo Spatula said on 12/16/15, at 8:10 AM CST:
The cast of the Debate is like one of those Comic Book Super Teams, where you have Superman, and then all the others of lesser powers that Superman doesn't even really need around
There was a political cartoon today on "Page Six" in the New York Post ("Page Six" started out on page 6 when Rupert Murdoch first bought the paper in 1976, but it is now deeper in the paper. Today it was on Page 20.)
It shows a debate stage.
The candidates are drawn as Star Wars characters. They are labeled and are each given a line.
From left to right, they are:
Yoda Kasich: Win, I must.
Princess Fiorina: I'm our only hope.
Rubio Skywalker: May the Force be with you.
Carson 3PO: Oh, Dear.
Darth Trump: I'm your father.
Cruz Solo: Don't get cocky.
Jeb-Bacca: Rrwwghh!
Christie the Hut: Sit down and shut up.
Rand2-D2: Beep Beep Beep.
http://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/varvel/2015/12/14/cartoonist-gary-varvel-gop-star-wars-debate/77311646/
I think Trump listened to the pushback from Limbaugh, Levin, and Beck. I don't know, but I suspect, that Trump and Limbaugh are fairly close. I don't know about Beck, but Levin and Limbaugh, without endorsing The Donald, have at least given him credit for exposing the media and being willing to fight. A lot of people don't respect any of those talk show guys but I don't pay any attention to anybody who dismisses them (usually without really ever listening to them) and Trump is smart enough to know that these guys aren't the media badguys.
Personally, I view Trump as a reality show candidate but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize that he had a net positive effect on the primary race. He is a table setter. I have said since the summer that I think he eventually exits and Cruz inherits his supporters. I'm not as confident about his exit, anymore, but I still think he and Cruz are working together. I think Trump is as surprised as the rest of us at this staying power. He reminds me of a pacer in a marathon who gets to mile 18 where he is supposed to drop then realizes that he is actually feeling pretty good and goes on to win the race. This actually happens every once in awhile in a race.
But Jeb. You have to be able to talk. I'm sorry that a lot of the talking you have to do is on TV nowadays, but you have to be able to do it. If you can't, then you don't get to be president. He could be boring but he has to be coherent, and he is not.
In most of the debates Trump and Cruz both seem willing or even relieved to be ignored and passed over for questions. Cruz is laying low and biding his time, serpent like. The times that Trump gets riled up is when he starts getting too many questions, or when others are getting questions relating to him. If he wants to be President he'll have to get used to questions and criticisms from the press and the general public. He seems unwilling or unable to handle that. How can an American President function if he gets so upset by any pushback?
Amanda said...
In most of the debates Trump and Cruz both seem willing or even relieved to be ignored and passed over for questions. Cruz is laying low and biding his time, serpent like. The times that Trump gets riled up is when he starts getting too many questions, or when others are getting questions relating to him. If he wants to be President he'll have to get used to questions and criticisms from the press and the general public. He seems unwilling or unable to handle that. How can an American President function if he gets so upset by any pushback?
12/16/15, 12:29 PM"
Your observation would be completely accurate if simply replaced Trump and Cruz with Hillary!
AA: Don't know what gives you the feeling Trump is now taking advice from experts on foreign and security affairs. His question from Hewitt on the triad would have been detected from miles away and an answered prepared if Trump had advisers since Hewitt natters on about the subject on his radio show weekly as in his mind a test of any presidential candidate's qualifications. (Although I think it's a stupid question exposing Hewitt's personal super-hawk obsessions) (I also think Hewitt expected the non-answer since he announced in his question he would be going to neo-con disciple Rubio next.) An adviser would allow Trump to call for barring entry to all Muslims (since walked back to non-US Muslims)? An adviser would allow allow Trump to call for the killing of the families of terrorist killers (unless that adviser was Kim Jong-un or the ghost of Stalin)?
Even the use of the internist to sign a "medical report" that looked like it came from the Onion (and Trump didn't even remember his name correctly!). What political adviser would allow that travesty to be released? Trump is a performance artist, not a serious candidate. I half expect to see Gary Trudeau and Robert Altman with a mini-cam in the background of his appearances. Trump '16.
["]The man is a cartoon."
Trump is vulnerable to this attack. Jeb is just so bad at delivering it.
The moderator of the CNBC debate, John Harwood, tried out a similar line of attack against Trump, suggesting that he's running "a comic-book version of a presidential campaign." (See my live-blog at 8:26.) That was two months ago. It doesn't seem to have made a dent.
"AA: Don't know what gives you the feeling Trump is now taking advice from experts on foreign and security affairs."
It just seems like the competent thing to be doing.
In any case, the question here isn't whether Trump is boning up properly, it's whether Jeb has what it takes. Jeb chose to make an attack, had a prepared joke, and, as it happened, I didn't notice the joke until the next day when I happened to be reading about it in the newspaper. I'm just saying Jeb needs to be a lot better at communicating. His brother was a communications and comic genius by comparison.
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