Because Rouhani insists that no wine be served.
This has something to do with the French love of wine and something to do with a French "domestic culture war, with its right wing raising alarms over 'Islamification' that has spilled into its deep national relationship with food."
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७० टिप्पण्या:
Used to be the French most feared the Americanization of their culture. At least we appreciated their wine.
France 1, Iran 0
Hollande's refusal is the French equivalent of military force.
Because a boorish Iranian politician cannot let non-Muslims drink wine in his presence.
If you don't like a glass of wine, don't have one. Hater! Now even dim bitches like Althouse may understand: they're coming for your vino, girls!
That's really leftism in a nutshell. I don't like it, so you shall have none. Hard core! No wonder Obama wanted to suck his dick.
It has to do with the Islamists' insistence that everyone else around them must live by their rules.
Rouhani is a guest in Europe's house.
And when you're a guest in someone's house, you don't tell them what they can and can't consume.
When you're a host, you should show your respect for the guest. If you can't, don't have a guest.
When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
If it weren't for those darn "right wingers" we would have already snuffed the city of light. I mean, who thinks France, with it's long cultural history, philosophical achievements, contributions to mathematics, culnary excellence, etc, etc, etc, is worth defending and protecting? A bunch of Nazis, that's who!
Only the "right wingers" will complain when the Eiffel Tower is dynamited for being "un Islamic." Buch of losers.
Mitchell and Webb know the proper etiquette in these situations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NNuG-6-hQ
Ann Althouse said...
When you're a host, you should show your respect for the guest. If you can't, don't have a guest.
When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
Maybe, or maybe I offer vegetarian options. If my vegetarian friends expected everyone around them to be vegetarian out of "respect" for them, well, it's a hypothetical question because I wouldn't be friends with someone like that.
When vegetarians come to dinner, I ensure they have something to eat, I really do. But I eat steak or chicken or rabbit or whatever myself. If they complain about that, they can get dinner elsewhere. None ever has. None would be so rude. If they were that rude, they would likely be not welcome anyway.
When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
Yes. But they generally don't insist that I cook them a vegetarian meal.
Iran is being a terrible guest here. France is being an unaccommodating host. They deserve each other. But I'll give props to the French for sticking to their culture.
Rouhani could retaliate by accepting then executing a French Exit.
When my vegetarian friends come over for dinner, I make sure there are vegetarian dishes for them to choose from. I still cook myself s steak. And usually, if there are vegetarians, it's like one couple out of a dinner party of 8. No need for everyone to suffer. I think it's a bad example, frankly.
Drinking alcohol is different. No one likes to drink alone. You can eat different meals from your companion or guest - that's exactly what happens when you eat at a restaurant - but it's weird when alcohol isn't being enjoyed by all.
My in-laws come over for dinner fairly often, the husband is vegetarian and we always make sure there are plenty of good things for him to eat. He does not mind if the rest of us have non-vegetarian items. We also sometimes have guests that abstain from alcohol, we have other liquid refreshments to offer them, the rest of us might have a beer, wine or cider.
A nice illustration of how western culture and Islam do not mix. You can't have dinner with them without capitulating to their bizarre rules and regs. Another reason to not allow them into your country. There are 50+ Islamic countries. That is where Muslims should go.
Hollande should let him wait outside and invite him in for coffee.
Are we really supposed to worry about offending IRAN? Really? I got a couple of words for Iran, and they are not "please let me kiss your ass."
See how everyone is talking about how their vegetarian relatives and friends fit in while not complaining about how they eat steak?
Iran/Islam is not like that. They are going to make you do it their way as soon as they can.
MAX Keziah -- some woodcock?
KEZIAH No, thank you -- I'm a fruitarian.
MAX I don't realize that.
WILLIAM And ahm -- what's a fruitarian exactly?
KEZIAH We believe that fruits and vegetables have feelings so we think cooking is cruel. We only eat things that have actually fallen from the tree or bush -- that are, in fact, dead already.
WILLIAM Right. Right. Interesting stuff. (pause) So these carrots...
KEZIAH Have been murdered, yes.
WILLIAM Murdered? Poor carrots. How beastly.
Low and behold. A descendant of the French Revolution is still against submission to Tyrants.
He also knows that Iranian missiles carrying Mohammed's plutonium war heads thanks to Obama are aimed directly at Paris. Another reason to stand tough.
"When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?"
Depends - but, usually, Yes, we would provide a vegetarian option. However, I've never had a vegetarian friend or family member insist that nobody have meat. That's a little too controlling, no?
The larger point - Islam is 400 years backwards due to: (a) no alcohol and (b) repression of women.
Lack of wine and women doth an unhappy society make.
Rouhani is definitely the intolerant one. We've all encountered vegans. Some effort is made to give them an option, but the world doesn't go vegan when they're at the table. Cannibals are the real challenge.
If Rouhani can sit and dine with women, why can't he sit and dine with wine drinkers. A lot of those women probably dine with bare arms, and, worse, they're French and probably cheat on their husbands. What's the big deal about dining with wine drinkers?
At least the French have standards.
Obama caved to Iran and we got NOTHING.
I am sure that they serve wine to their European guests in Tehran, right?
No. They don't. This is a state to state issue, if the French say "Let's give in on this little point" the Islamist says "Look, they don't believe in anything, they will be easy pickings" when you think they are going to think "Aren't these Europeans nice? Let's leave eat them last..."
Europe has dealt with leaders who saw any accommodation as a sign of weakness, many times. It is not as if Hitler was a unique individual across all of history. He operated within a certain set of premises and incentives. To pretend that the circumstances that produced him will never recur is substituting hope for experience.
"When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?"
My vegetarian friends aren't trying to acquire nuclear weapons for the purpose of destroying Israel.
> When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
When I go to their place, should I expect them to cook me a steak?
Ann, you are seriously defending the Muslim?
I certainly try to accommodate my guests' eating habits; but they don't DEMAND it! There is a huge difference. I have friends who don't drink, but they don't DEMAND that it not be served in their presence. I don't eat red meat, but I dine often with friends who do. Without comment.
The only exception would be that I wouldn't serve drinks if any of the guests were (known or recovering) alcoholics.
I think Rouhani couldn't care less about the wine per we. It's a matter of control. However small, he makes a demand, and hopes for a sign of submission. It's eerily reminiscent of his Persion forebears 2500 years ago asking lands they wished to control to give them some dirt and water to take back to the capital.
Hollande made the best of this bad situation which he correctly understood as involving far more than wine. If only Obama had been as savvy before bowing to the Saudis.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The Iranians are insufferable and quite possible Hollande simply doesn't want to endure having dinner with Rouhani and the wine bit is an excuse not to.
"When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?"
When I have guests with special dietary requirement, I try to meet them. BUT I wouldn't insist that all my guests comply with one guest's dietary restrictions (regardless of whether these are religious or medical).
The usual compromise when wine is served is to put out a bottle that looks like wine but which contains a non-alcoholic grape juice.
Of course, the subtext is that the former colonizers have let themselves be colonized, and shortly they will have to choose whether to convert, submit, or die.
"FRANCE ON HIGH ALERT" -- Dave Barry
Hosting a Morman for dinner is a better comparison than hosting a vegetarian. None of my Morman friends insist that I refrain from alcohol or caffeine when I have dinner with them. In fact, one routinely is the DD when we go out for dinner. Hollande is correct. He should just tell Rouhani to order room service. Or to shove it. One or the other.
Have dinner with people who order the murders of innocents, sure. But not if they don't allow you to drink wine?
Nice priorities.
When Moses Montefiore traveled representing the British Government to the Tsar's court, he did not insist the Tsar change the menu to accommodate his kosher diet. Instead, he brought his own food preparer and ate on his own dishes. Everyone was happy.
Iran's dignitary should do something similar. He can request to have his own food prepared to his religious standards by his own chef and served on separate plates.
I do not eat meat. I can find salad and vegetables to eat at anyone's table. If I do not want to partake the wine, I abstain. Politely. While hospitality is expected from the host, it is also expected for the guest to behave graciously. The same goes for the flavor of the meal--the French do not like spicy foods; it would be equally impolite for a guest to say, "Yuck. This meal is bland and tasteless."
Breaking bread together is the mark of friendship and good manners. Anything else is n'importe quoi, as the French say. Moreover, in this case, a State Dinner, one is expected to be diplomatic if one is a diplomat.
There is much ritual overload in this exchange. Perhaps it would be best if both Mr. France and Mr. Iran simply met to talk and take their refreshments separately. From Mr. Iran's perspective, I have some idea of what he might be feeling. Snails and frog legs are delicacies for the French; but, not for other cultures. No matter what my French hosts say, I will not eat either. Politely of course.
I can also see why Mr. Iran might not want to extend graciousness to French culture--to do so might suggest that other cultures and nations over an alternative to the theological mandated rules of Iranian society. Openness is not a hallmark of Mr. Iran's regime.
When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
Who the heck in REAL Wisconsin has vegetarian friends?
AA: When you're a host, you should show your respect for the guest. If you can't, don't have a guest.
Yes, we know the drill. When Westerners go to a non-Western nation, it is rude for the Westerners not to accommodate themselves to the foreigners' customs. When non-Westerners come to a Western nation, it is rude for the Westerners not to accommodate themselves to the foreigners' customs.
I guess you'd think it would only be good manners to accommodate Rouhani if insisted that any women present at the dinner wear head scarves, eh? Or that the female officials who would customarily attend such events be excluded?
When you are a guest in a foreign country, isn't it more polite to eat according to their customs? You're kind of a Hillbilly if you insist on only eating hamburgers in Tokyo.
There is also etiquette in being a good guest. A lot of parents struggle to teach their kids to eat what is put in front of them and appreciate it.
There are starving kids in Africa who would really appreciate a plate of Cou de canard farci au foie gras served with a 2006 Bourgogne Pinot Noir.
Western leaders being what they are, however, and this being Hollande, this is probably just a bit of play-acting to bamboozle fed-up voters who are thinking of voting FN. Everybody involved is in on the charade.
This is another small victory for the Islamists. There are a lot of naïve people who still don't realize we are in a war with them.
I'm still stuck on the vegetarian guest thing. Seems pretentious.
I you have a dinner party of four couples, and one person doesn't eat meat, do you have eliminate all meat from the dinner? Can't you serve both? That kind of puts the vegetarian on the spot.
However, vegetarians love being the only vegetarian in the room, and by serving a carnivorous course you open up the conversation to your vegetarian or vegan guest to lecture everyone else at the table about the how unhealthy and cruel it is to eat meat. What else would they talk about? During the lecture, it is best to light a cigarette so you can listen attentively.
When vegetarians have carnivores over for dinner to they roll over and serve a leg of lamb for their guests?
When your recovering alcoholic cousin shows up for this Thanksgiving, does that mean nobody can drink beer during the Packer-Bear game? I mean what's a Wisconsin Thanksgiving Dinner without some cheap Blue Nun, Cold Duck, and Grasshoppers and Pick Squirrels for Dessert?
"Yes, we know the drill"
We do. Progressivism is a one-way street.
So, AA, if I understand you correctly, you'd expect the Iranians to serve their French guests wine in Tehran, right? And you've expressed your outrage at the lack thereof, right?
"When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?"
My middle daughter was a vegan until she lived in Spain a year. She told me that she would have starved to death if she had not resumed meat eating. Her vegan period began at UCLA with leftist studies that she is also slowly shedding.
I have no vegetarian "friends" although I know some Seventh Day Adventists. If I have dinner with them it is not at my home.
There is a huge difference between not having any wine and insisting that none be served: in fact, the difference between the liberal order and fascism. Rouhani won't prevent you from drinking wine without him, but he would if he could. I hate to think what it will take for the fancy people to recognize what they are up against. Good for Hollande, but it's probably just a gesture.
There is also a big difference between accommodating your guest's preferences/beliefs and forcing them upon everyone else. When we have vegetarian guests for dinner (with others) we make sure they have things they can eat, but we also serve meat. We know vegans who routinely bring their own entrees, so as not to impose (or be left out?)
"When vegetarians have carnivores over for dinner to they roll over and serve a leg of lamb for their guests?"
Thanks for a laugh this morning.
Let him eat bacon.
However, vegetarians love being the only vegetarian in the room
I've never (yet) run into a lecturing vegetarian or a lecturing vegan -- and I live in Madison (on the west side, though, not the east). Maybe I just look like a lost cause to them.
If I do, I'll just ask them the obvious question: Why is this so important to you that you're being rude?
I suppose telling Rouhani that it's not wine but the blood of Christ wouldn't smooth things over.
France has republican traditions which include the separation of state and church. The demand for no wine and halal meat was seen as religious and thus could not be accommodated at a state meal.
Good on the frogs.
mccullough said...
I suppose telling Rouhani that it's not wine but the blood of Christ wouldn't smooth things over.
It's not surprising that alcohol is not completely shunned in Christian circles. Yes I know, Christians have driven temperance movements...
When the Word became Flesh, I think God realized how stressful human existence could be. Between turning water into whine at the Feast of Cana, and incorporating it as part of the Eucharist the Lord Jesus Christ let us know it's ok to have a few.
Or maybe this is just the Irish interpretation of the message.
Sebastian,
>>Progressivism is a one-way street.
That's exactly right. Infinite accommodation for me, zero tolerance for you.
Of course, since they are morally superior, I guess it's OK.
Gusty Winds said...
When the Word became Flesh, I think God realized how stressful human existence could be. Between turning water into whine at the Feast of Cana, and incorporating it as part of the Eucharist the Lord Jesus Christ let us know it's ok to have a few.
Long ago a friend asked a preacher why his church was adamantly against any alcohol when Jesus drank wine. He explained to us that biblical authors were not making a distinction between fermented and unfermented wine. So essentially he claimed Jesus drank grape juice not wine.
This controversy reminds me of the ubiquitous "moment of silence," which accommodates religious people who want to say grace or pray for the fallen, but does nothing for the atheist or humanist, who, except for the occasional Quaker, has no special need for silence. Those who sponsor moments of silence are the Religious Rude, and it behooves the atheist to break out screaming!
Re that preacher who thinks the Bible was talking about grape juice, not wine -- I guess he's never read Psalm 104:
"O Lord, My God, You are Very Great: He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, And wine which makes man's heart glad"
Jimbino, you desperately need some silence. At least, we need it.
"When vegetarians have carnivores over for dinner to they roll over and serve a leg of lamb for their guests?"
Yes. And then they show them the three-legged lamb, and tell them why it got that way.
I had a boss who was Mormon. He took our team to lunch every month and he ordered a lemon water for his drink.
I always wanted to order a wine, but since he was paying, I thought it might seem inappropriate. Not that my drinking wine would be a problem, but his paying for it.
Then the idea of my paying for the wine myself. But I nixed this, as I felt it would be a rude tactic, and put him on the spot for not offering to buy my wine. Maybe he thinks a glass of wine during lunch is not appropriate at a business lunch.
In the end, I just ordered an ice tea. It was a forbidden fruit for him, but tolerated because it was so common in our country.
If the Mormons don't like tea, they can go to Nicaragua, is my thinking there.
If a vegetarian is your guest for dinner is it ok to serve fruit?
Why should he? Rouhani is always free to not imbibe. Nobody else is obligated to follow his lead...for now.
Sadly, Hollande has more balls in regards to Iran than Obama.
When you're a host, you should show your respect for the guest. If you can't, don't have a guest.
When your vegetarian friends come over, don't you do a vegetarian dinner?
If a guest told me "You cannot have this", I'd tell the guest to go screw themselves. But if I have a vegan friend, I have something quality for them to eat, even if I won't partake.
It's not a one-on-one thing. They both will have entourages. Why should EVERYBODY be inconvenienced for one person? If I was a guest, I'd be rather upset if my presence made an evening more unpleasant.
I'll also note that Islamic countries require their guests to abide by their rules. If Hollande visited Iran, he wouldn't be given wine there.
I mean, who thinks France, with it's long cultural history, philosophical achievements, contributions to mathematics, culnary excellence, etc, etc, etc, is worth defending and protecting? A bunch of Nazis, that's who!
Not really.
http://www.amazon.com/Is-Paris-Burning-Dominique-Lapierre/dp/0446392251
From a customer review:
If Hitler had his way, there would be no Notre Dame, none of Paris' beautiful bridges, no Eiffel Tower. The Allies didn't stop him, a brave German general did. At a tremendous personal risk, he resolved not to be the man to destroy the most beautiful city in the world....
But this was only because the Allies didn't want it destroyed.
From another review:
The book is the fascinating tale of how Paris evaded the fate Hitler envisioned for it at the end of the Second World War. It's a complex tale, with characters including Hitler and his staff in his bunker, the last German military governor in Paris and his staff, the French freedom fighters in Paris (both the Gaullists and the Communists), de Gaulle himself, Eisenhower and Bradley and the various other members of the Allied command structure, the Swedish ambassador in Paris, and common people, in the armed forces and in the streets of Paris. The title is drawn from a question Hitler asked, when he found out that Allied troops were approaching Paris.
Derp: I mean, who thinks France, with it's long cultural history, philosophical achievements, contributions to mathematics, culnary excellence, etc, etc, etc, is worth defending and protecting? A bunch of Nazis, that's who!
Sammy Finkelman: Not really.
[...sperg-out follows...]
Understanding Derp's irony requires knowing something about current political realities in Europe, Sammy.
The scourge of literal-mindedness: environment or heredity? Can education help, or will curing it require genetic engineering?
When flying on Turkish Air recently, no one demanded that all passengers abstain from alcohol. Some did, others did not. No problem.
Change the facts to smoking. Same views?
They had their values in the wrong place. Those Germans cared about buldings, but not about people.
I bet Derp didn't understand that this actually was an issue - and with real Nazis, not people metaphortically called them.
So does either Holland's or Rouhani know that the pet who said "a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou" was an Iranian?
Rick said...
Have dinner with people who order the murders of innocents, sure. But not if they don't allow you to drink wine?
Nice priorities.
11/11/15, 9:20 AM
Hooray for Rick! The only one in the thread to connect the dots.
Murder gays and throw them from rooftops, stone women to death for walking without a male chaperone, assassinate and outlaw your political opposition, murder and mutilate protesters in the street, kill all Jews and ban them from your country, proclaim to the world your desire to annihilate all Jews and destroy the nation of Israel- Hey, let's have lunch! What, no wine? Why you barbarian! Such behavior cannot be tolerated! ...Fuck Hollande and France.
Blogger Sammy Finkelman said...
They had their values in the wrong place. Those Germans cared about buldings, but not about people.
I don't agree. They cared enough about Jews to want to kill them all.
Sammy F: I bet Derp didn't understand that this actually was an issue.
You have no idea what Derp knows or does not know about the subject of your irrelevant tangent. You didn't understand his post, you replied to it with an irrelevant sperg-out, and trying to make it appear that he's the one who "didn't get" something just makes you look pathetic.
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