Mary Norris defends her position declaring that in her book, "than" works as a preposition." (And, in case you don't watch the video, she does understand the argument that "than" is a conjunction)
I bought the book, "Between You and Me: Confessions of a Comma Queen." The passage on page 72 — which she isn't going to change — is:
Nothing makes it clearer how intimately and deeply pronouns are embedded in our lives than having to alter them to refer to someone you’ve known all your life. Just when I was mounting an assault on the Italian language, sorting the nouns that ended in a (mostly feminine) from the nouns that ended in o (mostly masculine), struggling to make sense of the ones that ended in e, the difference between sex and gender leaped out of the textbook and into my real life: my younger brother announced that he was transgender. Dee was two years younger than me, and we had been close— or at least I thought we were close. We grew up together in Cleveland and we both escaped to New York, where we were friends, sometimes neighbors, often confidantes, collaborators, drinking buddies....
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"Younger than me" sounds more natural, but it seems to me the correct phrase is "younger than I was" with the "was" possibly being understood. But I can't watch the video right now.
I agree that in this context, "than me" sounds more conversational, while "than I," while technically correct, sounds a bit stilted. It all depends on how formal one wants to be.
But I never could stand hearing people say, however conversationally, something like, "Care to join so-and-so and I for a drink?" It's "me," "me," "me"!
That should be the first question asked of Trump tonight. He could use it to demonstrate saying, "Bush is lower energy than me and Carson is lower energy than him and me."
That should bring out the snippy Librarian in Laura Bush whom Trump can attack back for her Husband allowing Iraq libraries to be looted, etc, which will bring JEB's energy back up for one sentence defending his brother until Barbara Bush intervenes and donates ten million to Club for Growth negative ads.
I really miss Scott Walker.
Yeah, "than" is a preposition. I ran than the hill; she jumped than the stile. I refuse to end this sentence with than.
That's a crappy defense.
traditionalguy said...I really miss Scott Walker.
I miss the idea of Scott Walker. Scott Walker the actual candidate I barely remember.
Scott Walker was so busy being good and keeping all of the rules like Wisconsin expects of their Pols that he never stood a chance running the Super PAC campaigns like all the rest of them are doing...except for Trumpster the Manhattan Dutchman.
Comma Queen indeed. It's hard to take seriously a staffer at the diaeresistic The New Yorker that still insists on spelling words like cooperation using the aristocratic form coöperation. If she wants respect, she should resign.
Curiously, The New Yorker settled for http://www.newyorker.com and was to cheap to stake out and redirect http://www.thenewyorker.com.
I don't find the construction awkward or odd-sounding, so I'll allow it.
Descriptivism FTW.
According to Merriam-Webster, "than" indeed can function as a preposition, specifically in the phrase "than me." The eminent grammarian H. W. Fowler also specifies that "than" can function as either a conjunction ("than I") or a preposition ("than me"); see Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd ed., s.v. "than" (#6).
Preposition versus clause isn't the only issue. The sentence uses a reflexive, passive verb.
I'll admit I am grammar normative.
"Younger then me" is acceptable, as is "It's me." Not acceptable is "transgender" when referring to "transsexual," since sex is only one example of gender among many possible genders, like color, size, race, material, and so on.
People who can't bring themselves to say "toilet" or "sex" are the ones who promote "restroom" and "gender." They are not good models for anyone.
"Than" has also developed breasts.
This is something I have paid attention to for years. It was drilled into me that it is "younger than I," but if one says that out loud, it sounds pretentious. "Younger than me" is the accepted vernacular and may even be becoming officially acceptable. Even The actors on Downton Abbey say "than me." However because of my early training, I can't make myself use it w/o being aware that it is incorrect. I solve the dilemma by saying " younger than I am."
I wonder what Rush is going on about. He's using an outraged shout with an eye on the clock.
I just want people to stop using "myself" when they should be saying "me".
She was doing a great Andy Rooney there!
Anything that thou doth sayeth, en Anglais, is correct, as it is a language of mongrels, and who soever barks the loudest, thou art the smartest.
Anything that thou doth sayeth
Lack of KJV Bible readings to start school has left a generation with no intuition for old timey language.
The inflection goes only on the verb carrying tense (do).
Of course it should be "...younger than I [am young]."
But, dammit, the most annoying common error is the double possessive: "a friend of mine" or "a cousin of Joe's."
A little love, and the comma becomes a back slash.
Thanks, Althouse, for posting about this. I've been hearing the "than me" formulation a lot lately, often used by well-educated, articulate people. As others have said, it sounds OK, but I still feel an urge to blue-pencil the "me" to "I". I guess I'll just have to come to terms with the "me" usage (although I secretly think that those who use it are less educated than I).
Just complete the sentence: "Dee was younger than I AM". And she still is...
Isn't this a simple example of proper sentence structure in the presence of a predicate nominative?
She's wrong. It's that simple.
Hmmf, some froof-reader. It should be:
"Dee was two years younger than me, and us had been close— or at least me thought us were close. Us grew up together in Cleveland and us both escaped to New York, where us were friends,... "
MT said...
Isn't this a simple example of proper sentence structure in the presence of a predicate nominative?
Me wouldn't deny that possibility.
SOJO said...
but if one says that out loud, it sounds pretentious.
I've read a few places that it is supposed to sound pretentious, because some of the grammar "rules" were invented to distinguish the edumacated English snobs from the commoners (don't end a sentence in a preposition, etc).
Like here, maybe.
According to Merriam-Webster, "than" indeed can function as a preposition, specifically in the phrase "than me." The eminent grammarian H. W. Fowler also specifies that "than" can function as either a conjunction ("than I") or a preposition ("than me"); see Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd ed., s.v. "than" (#6).
Bah. That's outcome-based grammar lawyering.
They "escaped to New York" from Cleveland. No loss for Cleveland.
I'm for a loosely enforced and rapidly changing prescriptive view of English grammar and usage. There should be rules so that outsiders can learn to speak correctly. But they should change and adapt quickly.
I saw this meme for the first time yesterday:
"English does not borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them down, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."
Prescriptive grammar is the study of applying rules. It's naive on a few things, the most important being that there are for more rules than prescriptive grammar imagines, and the ones it knows about aren't always the right ones.
Descriptive grammar is the study of what sounds wrong. This is more interesting because the rules are far more numerous, but mostly unknown even to the speakers.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which came first, usage or the rules of grammar? If what is said, clearly communicates, what is the problem?
Rules of grammar make my head hurt.
I thought Kelsey Grammar spokes real good.
I am Laslo.
This tempest in a teacup illustrates why sentence diagrams should return to standard educational practice in teaching English grammar.
In point of fact both parties have grammatical correctness on their side, however Ms. Norris is more correct.
John is younger than I is correct if and only if the sentence can be taken as elliptical, i.e. the subordinate verb has been omitted, as in John is younger than I am.
John is younger than me is always correct because than me is in this case a prepositional phrase.
As a matter of clarity elliptical sentences should be avoided in written English, except in the matter of direct quotation.
As a further example of why Norris is more correct than her critics consider this sentence: Five is less than six. Most people would conclude that than functions as a preposition, because most people would consider the use of a subordinate clause to be superfluous, if not infantile. (Five is less than six is would be the non-ellipical formation of the sentence if than is taken as a conjunction.)
It is I who with such pedantry up will not put.
Many law professors know that they are really language instructors.
Not a lot of new, original research to publish on the English language.
Everybody has to make a living.
Five is less than six.
Fewer than. ;)
"It is I who with such pedantry up will not put."
It's "shall", not "will"! Sheesh!
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