१७ जुलै, २०१५
Carly Fiorina does a Buzzfeed video, "If Men Were Treated Like Women In The Office."
Nice light-handed treatment of a serious subject. Maybe some who resist the usual feminist critique will experience a "click."
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७६ टिप्पण्या:
"Maybe some who resist the usual feminist critique will experience a "click.""
If you push the 'C' and the 'L' of "click" closer together it will look like "dick".
I'm not sure if Althouse did this intentionally.
I am Laslo.
Look at her! She's being funny! I didn't know women running for President could be funny!
Are you through Carly? Make me a sammich.
I certainly hope Carly makes the debates.
She will open many eyes and gather more support. She is terrific.
OK..I'll admit it..I have asked women 'How do you walk in those heels".
But it was honest curiosity...i really don't know how they can do it.
Didn't Carly meet her husband at he office? Is that still allowed?
I like Carly, but it's an underwhelming video to say the least. Sorry, feminists, but trivial, perceived "microagressions" at work aren't a big deal. Also, the "work/life" balance for working Moms is a huge deal. Very hard to raise kids and work full time at the same time. Any working Mom will tell you this - they usually won't focus on the trivial items depicted in Carly's video.
This video promotes a horrible stereotype about men in the workplace. Fiorina should be ashamed.
After watching the video, at the end was a selection for a related video:
"Do You Know What Your Vagina Looks Like?"
With a young woman at an art easel pencil drawing straight-on a closeup of a vulva.
I mean, know your subject, before you try to teach it, and why is this video related to Mrs. Florina??
Stupid.
The lines are pickup lines. The guys aren't playing the women's half.
It would be nice if women carried their share of the load in the workplace. That's what they'd say if they weren't trolling for dates.
To be fair, on the whole shoe thing, the hardest to walk in pair of shoes I own are Vans (shut up, casual Friday) because they have no arch support and are a tidge too long so I tend to walk a big more high-stepping and slowly.
Whereas almost all the women at work will regularly wear heels >4". Which makes them move up stairs and down halls in a distinctly giraffe-like manner.
So if men ask how you do it, it's because it is just dang odd and uncomfortable looking.
-XC
Fiorina pandering for votes from working women.
Working women like pandering. But probably not Fiorina.
How's about a video about a female worker crying over a missed phone call, or a gay worker rubbing up against his male colleague? Let's just go all the way!
I work in software development
Asking girls how they walk in heels seems pretty reasonable, since it is something that all the girls can do well, but none of the men have a clue how.
It is no more offensive then if one of the girls asked one of the men how we write code that works.
Her first campaign gaffe, as far as I can tell. From the clichéd breezy "this must be funny shit" music to the exaggerated silence that is supposed to be representative of women.
"I saw a hooker who had shoes like that."
I am Laslo.
Whoever wrote the video obviously hasn't worked in an office in 30 years. Maybe they came up with this after a long weekend of binge watching Mad Men.
I've been in the working for 30+ years, 11 in the military, the rest in a corporate IT environment, and I have never seen the behavior alleged to be widespread by that video.
By the way, baking ability would seem to be irrelevant to the task of getting a cake, since they are always purchased from a bakery. And usually someone volunteers to order it and pick it up.
Does that sort of thing still go on in any offices? Really? I have been in offices for 30 years and have not seen any of those in like the last 15 or 20.
Way to date yourself.
Also, I really, really want to like her BUT if in her recent experiences as top management of top companies, this is what went on, she just might be the problem...
Also, it was pretty common to have female bosses, so talking over them (or women in general) would have been a bad idea.
We're in a bad time for male homo sapiens.
I haven't seen that sort of behavior in decades, and I mean decades plural. Of course I worked in IT, where you can either write good code or you're no damned good at all. The women who lasted were very sharp.
I cannot understand WHY they do it? I would also expect everyone of my male friends to ask me the same thing. Why do you wear those dumb shoes?
Sexism is real. Didn't appreciate it until I was married and my wife and I compared notes on people we knew in common; very eye opening.
Carly has a nice touch here; makes the point with humor.
OK, so let's pre-suppose that Fiorina gets the GOP nomination.
She's got this video on YouTube that tells that she thinks men are mostly chauvinist pigs.
That's gonna work well.
If women thing men at work treat them disrespectfully, they should experience how we treat one another. In my experience, it isn't mean-spirited most of the time, it's just friendly banter. Self-deprecating humor happens all of the time, followed by fun jabs and digs on one another. If they aren't digging at you, they probably don't like you enough to care.
I have never witnessed most of those scenarios. The only one I see happen often enough to not be schmuck for mentioning it is being talked over, which mostly happens to the men as meetings are almost always female dominated.
Sorry Carly (and Prof.), the '70's called, they want their complaints back.
"If they aren't digging at you" they are probably plotting against you.
Maybe some who resist the usual feminist critique will experience a "click."
It is the usual feminist critique.
I experienced all those situations when I worked outside the home. And I wasn't ALIVE in the 70s.
A Russian woman at a previous job explained to me how to walk in high heel platform boots. The trick is, you swing your legs from the hips like a pendulum. Apparently this is something that every woman knows.
Where were you, Deirdre? Because I find that very difficult to believe. But then, you're a millennial, and they have their own issues. In spades.
tim maguire said...
Where were you, Deirdre? Because I find that very difficult to believe. But then, you're a millennial, and they have their own issues. In spades.
It seems many of today's millennials don't just have issues, they have whole subscriptions.
Ron Winkleheimer said...
"If they aren't digging at you" they are probably plotting against you.
Depends on the office, I guess. I've been quite fortunate to not work in a place where people are plotting against one another for a long time.
@Larry J
Just being sarcastic. I haven't worked any place where people plotted against each other. Or perhaps I was just to clueless to know about it?
It's not the feminist critique I object to; it's the feminist solutions. The left can often accurately identify social problems. I'm just not on board with heavy handed government top down "solutions".
If a woman asks me "how can you walk in those long, squared off dress shoes?", my response would be, "practice".
I was grumpy at work one day. A woman asked if it was because my team lost last night. She said it with a slight hint of derision, though knowing her personally, I knew she was being lighthearted.
She was correct. And to the goddamn Jets, of all teams!!!!!
Stereotypes exist for a reason.
Nice!
University settings, mostly. Also trade shows. I guess it's not fair to say "Wasn't alive"--I was born at the tail-end of the 70s and sneaked in under Gen X. (Breathes sigh of relief.)
On the other hand, these behaviors were mostly from liberal men who called themselves feminists. I think it might be the 'reusable bag' problem. Because they donate to the right causes and say the right things, they feel free to be assholes in real life.
It's so funny that many of the men here think the "how do you walk in those?" is a reasonable question! Not that I think it's sexist, or a microagression; but it's just kind of silly. The answer is, "one foot in front of the other, just like you do."
Now asking how we keep our balance might be a little more on point, but the answer to that is still simple -- "it's like riding a bicycle - you do it without even thinking."
Hope that helps some of the clueless men on the forum. :)
(And yes, sometimes it may be just a conversation starter/pickup line -- but let me help there, also: if that's the best you've got at any given time; don't even try. Try later. :)
The shoe remark is, I think, an expression of a belief that it is foolish to limit and hurt yourself by the wearing of high heels. The hostility to the remark is, I think, based on the pain and sacrifice which is being endured to impress someone who's not duly impressed. But he is impressed. He's noticed and moved to speak. Maybe he's trying to say: You don't have to do this for me. I would like you anyway. I'd like you even more if I didn't have to worry that you're hurting yourself. Please stop. Or maybe he's really trying to say: I appreciate the effort you're making for me. I like it, and I hope you're not suffering too much. But if you are, thanks for caring that much about me!
I also have never seen that behavior in the workplace. Certainly not after the late '80's. Did they lift it from an episode of Mad Men?
Deirdre, I for one do believe you. I think it's a stretch to think you've experienced all of those situations, but maybe you have, or maybe at you got hit with the majority of them, which is enough to qualify it as "all".
I've seen it too, on occasion, and sometimes I felt bad for the girl in question, and at least once I joined with another girl in calling the person out. The person was a girl. The situation: the "victim" was a skinny female known for dainty eating. Her normal lunch was a yogurt and a kiddie bag of Teddy Grahams with a bottle of Vitamin water or Evian. Working in a call center, there are groups who take lunch at the same time on given days. In the cafeteria, while I was eating with 2 other girls at the same table, the girl in question walked in and sat down with a huge sub sandwich from Jimmy Johns and a bag of chips. Out of character to say the least. The "aggressor" said something along the lines of "can I have what you don't finish?" and the "victim" replied that she was extremely hungry because she missed breakfast.
Here's where it gets fun.
The "aggressor" doubled down and said "but I thought you were on a diet or something?", and the "victim" said "Nooo" in a slight rising tone. Then the third girl and I, both silent to this point, chimed in with the sentiment that the "victim" didn't need to diet, she already looked great (and she did, though a bit too skinny for my tastes). There was no active defense of the "victim", just general solidarity against nosiness and unwarranted assumption on the part of the "aggressor". My only further contribution to the discussion was to remark that the "victim" had made a good choice: she'd ordered my 2nd fav sandwich from JJ's.
She gave me the other half later that day. Eyes were bigger than her stomach. I remember this all vividly because of the "diet" comment (that kinda shocked me into paying attention), and because it involved delicious food. Unexpected delicious food - I left before they were done eating to go outside and smoke, and simply assumed that the "victim" had indeed finished her whole sandwich. She did not, and she even saved me an unused mayo packet.
I have to echo what several others have said: I've worked in office environments for well over 30 years, and I have never seen any of these "stereotypical" behaviors. That includes stints in IT/development and as a contractor to the military. While I don't discount Dierdre's experiences, I think these are extremely rare and outdated behaviors. They might have been valid complaints 40 to 60 years ago. As a result: not funny.
And, one last thing: if you're female and you make it known that you enjoy baking, do not be surprised or offended if people ask you to bake something for a company potluck, or see if you'd like to volunteer to bake a birthday cake. Homemade is usually at least incrementally better than store-bought, for reasons beyond the substance of food. The thought counts too.
Me and another male at my current office enjoy lifting weights. We've talked about it openly, and have even arm-wrestled each other after another guy dared us to. I won (of course I did - but really, I did). Consequently, whenever someone needs boxes of printer paper moved, or a heavy office desk rearranged, they first look for me, then the other guy.
It's not sexist. It's logical. And I don't mind. The boyfriend of one of our female coworkers does, but nobody's stopping him from picking up a barbell.
I've seen some of these in the last ten years, and overall, I thought it was pretty funny, although some of these were probably outdated. I like Fiorina generally, although I don't know enough to know if she would get my vote. She would certainly be a better President than that "other" lady.
I hope she's in the debates.
The beginning with the sneakers (old word) was the funniest part.
Geez, Ann, I think you've overthinking. Who wears high heels for men anymore? Especially for the men at the office -- please.
Everyone knows we dress fashionably for ourselves and for other women. And while I don't want to tempt fate, I don't think I'm "hurting" myself by sometimes wearing very high heels.
Ron Winkleheimer said...
@Larry J
Just being sarcastic. I haven't worked any place where people plotted against each other. Or perhaps I was just to clueless to know about it?
Sarcasm is often hard to detect in text. While we may not have worked where people plotted against one another (or were out of the loop about it), I've heard a lot of people complaining about it. Perhaps it's a real thing.
As for women wearing really tall high heals, I don't really wonder how they walk in them. I just can't imagine why someone would wear what appears to be very uncomfortable shoes. Maybe they aren't as uncomfortable as they look.
Putting aside accuracy (because politics is haha the place where we look for our accuracy), Fiorina and the Repubs in general need to attract more than the gumpy old conservatives if they want to win. A bit of a jab poke jab joking around is not a bad way to get the "others'" attention.
There's an unnecessary and patronizing misstep, Ms. Fiorina.
I don't think the shoe question is that big a deal. I once worked in a small business where the male owner (~60) walked behind a seated woman (~25) and lifted his leg over the back of the chair to sit down behind her. Then he tried to "show her" something on the computer which required him to reach around her to the keyboard.
I was horrified - this can't be happening kind of horrified. So if we're down to pretending questions about shoes from a tiny minority of people is a big deal I think we're making great progress. Frankly the shoe thing ties right into sexual harassment = flirting while ugly. Does anyone believe if Tom Brady asked about walking in high heels we'd be hearing about it?
Nah not clicking. Feminism has become a joke, and I refuse to participate in anything to rehabilitate its image.
"Everyone knows we dress fashionably for ourselves and for other women. And while I don't want to tempt fate, I don't think I'm "hurting" myself by sometimes wearing very high heels."
Does everyone know that?
How does that work? You wear high heels, but only for other women? Not for men? Women can assume that you are wearing the shoes for them, but men can't assume you are wearing the shoes for them? are you wearing a sign on your shoes that say they are for women only?
"Geez, Ann, I think you've overthinking. Who wears high heels for men anymore? Especially for the men at the office -- please."
Its funny how you say "Who wears high heels for men ANYMORE?" so you agree that at one point women did wear high heel shoes for men. So it WAS true. It just isn't now?
So, who sent out the memo that this is no longer so? what if there are women out there still wearing high heel shoes for the men, just like before?
Does anyone believe if Tom Brady asked about walking in high heels we'd be hearing about it?
Well, if some pussy from Indianapolis overheard the remark it would probably be front page news for a month.
I have a sweet tooth, so I often make cookies or brownies. When I brought them into work I would often be asked if my wife made those. The question always came from a woman.
Speaking of women in high heels, I always find it odd when a woman who, while wearing flats is significantly shorter than me one day, suddenly wears 4+ inch heels the next day is almost as tall as me. It's like when people dye their hair or radically change their hair cut, it takes a moment for my brain to say: "Yes. That's so-and-so."
When I was in college, I wore heels all the time. All the time. Every now and then someone would ask how I could walk in them, and I always found that odd because if you wear them all the time, then walking in them in just walking--there's nothing special about it.
Now that I wear heels more rarely, I understand why people ask the question. If you only wear heels on occasion, they are much more difficult to wear.
I guess, if men wore high heels, I'd feel the same disconnect on seeing them no-heel-day-to-heel-day.
I've never thought to ask a woman how they walk in heels. I assume it's just like walking on your tippy toes.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
I have a sweet tooth, so I often make cookies or brownies. When I brought them into work I would often be asked if my wife made those. The question always came from a woman.
So you sued? How much did you get?
I hate being asked if my girlfriend/wife made baked goods for the office.
It never bothered me that women asked if my wife made those. I took it as an opportunity to proudly proclaim that I had made them. Depending on the audience I might also resort to mock indignation for humorous effect, but only if I knew the person well enough that I was sure they would take it in the spirit intended.
In my office, number of women I work with closely on a daily basis: 10
Number of men: 1
Reading the comments without having watched the video I assumed that while it played on stereotypes, it was humorous enough that I could laugh along.
Now I've watched it. I was wrong.
While the stereotypes were not particularly worse than I expected, it was played so heavy-handed, and without any sort of set-up or comedic timing. No redeeming value whatsoever.
Bad enough that it will reduce my chances of voting for her.
The focus on the shoes in this thread is funny. I have never had any of those things said or done.
Things I have had said to me at work...the time trusted (when referring to me) was crossed out and replaced with busty on a memo and passed around..."why are you working so hard? Why don't you go on a date instead?" "if you were on my fantasy football team you would be a tight end. Right guys?" When asking how many pounds he thought the UPS box we were shipping was, "hey guys, she wants to know how big my package is? You wanna know the size of my package " And I didn't get it so he repeated it 20 times while they laughed. "Your voice sounds different...are you in birth control?" To a female co-worker from the boss who thinks sexual harassment is a myth "Have you ever been sexually harassed? No? Guess you're not pretty enough." The time I realized while reading updates to my boss on the phone from Asia I realized he was jerking off to the sound of my voice reading corporate memos!... I said I have to go, he said, "no no no no! Keep talking" I gave him a reason I had to go and hung up. Ew.
The time a co-worker 20 years my senior offered to walk me out forced a kiss on me and then made harassing calls including panting calls to my home phone (I wasn't the first he did this to) told the Pres of the co and the Pres. response was "he makes the most money in the company, you are an expense. Either suck it up or leave. I was 19 and had no idea about things and was to embarrassed to discuss with my dad or someone who knew better. This was in 1989. A long time ago, but not "mad men" old.
The rest of the stories were from the 90s and 2000s. Just a few off the top. All the same industry (which may attract a certain type), but most happened at small 50 employees or less LLCs where there is no chance of repercussions (the HR rep - if there was one- is as insecure as everyone). There is pressure to go along with it by everyone (I am sure a lot of the guys laughing were mortified, but afraid to speak up) because being ostracized as a trouble maker at a small place is awful. At the large corporations I have worked at, people would never think of doing/saying such things because you would be fired. The jerking off incident happened at a big corp, but I just hoped he was drunk as it was 9pm in Asia.
I have never seen even harmless risqué jokes ("nice peaches!" In a sexy voice from the boss when I had 2 peaches on my desk last summer ...eye-roll) from guys today who are under 40. So I think my stories (and many more from friends) will soon be unheard of as people now 50 and over retire. The under 40 set have a different mentality. I also don't see female employees always getting stuck with the shitty assignments no one wants because they do not earn promotions, which was the norm in my industry in the 90s and early 2000s. I am sure all of this was very common when Fiorina started.
Yeah, my 'working life' was over by 2004--- so.... maybe there has been a huge change in the last decade.
jr565:
I think it was the 1950s when women wore high heels for men. Back in Doris Day times. That's all I meant. And even then, I might be wrong, and it may have just been the fantasies of the screenwriters for those Doris Day, Elvis Presley, etc. movies.
Freeman Hunt: So you are saying that the men who ask the question are "only wearing heels occasionally?" :)
I don't care HOW a woman walks in high heels. If it makes her legs and ass look better, i appreciate it, without comment or ogling. Why all the drama about normal everyday life and perceived micro aggressions? It's time to be an adult.
BTW, cakes for the office almost always come from the bakery or grocery store, as is the case in my (primarily female) office.
I am not Laslo. (Not that there is anything wrong with Laslo).
Deirdre Mundy says "University settings, mostly"
That explains it.
Yet again, American parochialism.
This sort of Miss Grundyism simply does not work elsewhere.
It is unthinkable in Tokyo after-hours salaryman binges, Hong Kong business lunches, Filipino construction sites, Indian programming shops, among Gurkha guards in every challenging situation, etc. and ever on.
And the US cultural leadership role is rapidly weakening.
If US women want to deal with the world, the secret of success is to adapt to circumstances, not to insist on everything adapting to them.
I recently visited Highlands, NC. It's a tourist destination. I noticed that the local female store clerks and museum/gallery workers wore very high heels. Of course, the female tourists wore flip-flops or sneakers. I surmised that the heels were social signaling, meaning "I'm not one of those tourists. I belong here."
CatherineM said...
All of the items you mention are worse than asking about shoes, and some are outrageous (i.e., firing offenses). What are we to make of Fiorina whining about shoes if she experienced these types of offenses as you suggest? Is she trying to minimize the issue and ingratiate herself to a different set of people than it appears?
"Fiorina pandering for votes from working women."
Exactly..and to think I took her seriously up till this. Yes, Ann..I experienced "a click"...
Rick - possibly. Look what happens in the comments section here whenever there is a post that shines a light on sexism? Such defensiveness (why would anyone defend the behavior I listed?) and then the denial of sexism. If she got serious about what she had to deal with coming up in the ranks the reaction would be, why is she whining? Right? When a former female boss started working in1970, even though she has an Ivy league degree, the only work she could get was as a secretary. She had a champion who saw her smarts and promoted her to a sales job. The boss didn't like it and accused her in front of all the traders in the floor of sleeping her way to the spot. Humiliated, she quit. I have to think Carly dealt with similar behavior.
While I am typing I remember a friend/co-worker whose boss in late 1998 knocked a bin of loose change on the floor and my friend knelt down to pick it up. As she picked up the change he said, "I always wanted to see you on your hands and knees." Ew, and she was humiliated. No one cared.
Like I said, huge strides in the last 15 years. I just don't see the behavior or sidelining of women from those in power positions under 50 (especially not those under 35 where they seemed to grow up with the idea that a woman can be just as capable as a man). This is in the same industry. Perhaps it's also all of the training about appropriate behavior/codes of conduct, but I just think the age they were raised is the difference.
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