One wound occurred when Gray struck his head on a bolt that jutted out in the van, the official said, but that was not Gray’s only head injury. And the injuries overall are consistent with what medical examiners often see in car collisions, the official said.So, you shackle a man, put him in a van with jutting bolts, and then you drive the van in such a way that he slams into things hard enough to cause multiple injuries, and the man dies of those injuries.
That's worse that shooting a man on the street, where there's some argument of needing to stop him. The shackled man enclosed in a vehicle is already completely restrained. There's no harm to say you needed to stop.
I think of torture devices like the iron maiden, where a helpless person is shut inside something that is designed and intended to injure him.
UPDATE: "Freddie Gray death ruled a homicide; six Baltimore police officers charged."
पोस्ट्स
१६१ टिप्पण्या:
I'd bet on the narrative collapse going the usual way.
That is, him beating himself up.
If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?
I'm more inclined to believe the original testimony of the other prisoner; that Gray was deliberately trying to injury himself, probably to file complaints against the officers.
Dribs and drabs, Althouse. It's all coming out in dribs and drabs.
It's nice to see that you amplify the WP's "police are evil" POV. After all, the riots must be justified!
Authorities have said previously that the transport van stopped once to put Gray in leg irons, another time to check on him and a third time to pick up another arrestee.
If they stopped the van three or four times to check on him, how did they ignore him?
So, you shackle a man, put him in a van with jutting bolts, and then you drive the van in such a way that he slams into things hard enough to cause multiple injuries, and the man dies of those injuries.
But the other man riding in the van was fine. Apparently, the rule that you had to shackle prisoners in the van was only 2 days old or something.
The cops either knew Gray was very injured (because they checked on him multiple times) and didn't care or something else was going on.
There is still a lot more to this story than is available.
The cops said he was irate and thrashing about and so did the other person in the back of the van who heard all his commotion. Was the other guy in the van injured in any way by the jostling of the van?
So then it's open as to whether the cops driving caused the jostling or whether he did it himself.
If rednecks in East Texas did this, it would be a hate crime.
. . . and then you drive the van in such a way that he slams into things hard enough to cause multiple injuries, and the man dies of those injuries.
Arguing facts not in evidence, at least not yet. The other prisoner in the van has spoken out and has made no mention of any 'wild ride' activity, even though it would be in his great interest to do so.
So, again, you are arguing facts not in evidence. Shame.
According to Fox News, it has happened in the past with Baltimore PD:
BALTIMORE – People in Baltimore and other cities accuse police of sometimes giving prisoners an extra-rough "nickel ride" — a reference to amusement rides that once cost a nickel. Now, the safety of people in Baltimore's police vans is under scrutiny because of a past death and a new fatal injury, one that came after police failed to put a seat belt on a passenger.
One of those, Dondi Johnson, died of a fractured spine in 2005 two weeks after he was arrested for urinating in a public street and transported by van. Johnson's family won a $7.4 million judgment that was reduced to $200,000, the legal cap for such cases. Family lawyer Kerry D. Staton said Johnson was seated alone in the van with his hands cuffed behind him and no seat belt to restrain him.
It is police policy that all arrestees must be buckled in during transport. The policy, updated just nine days before Freddie Gray was injured, states "all passengers, regardless of age and location, shall be restrained by seat belts or other authorized restraining devices."
An attorney representing one of the six officers involved in Gray's arrest said it can sometimes be difficult, or even dangerous, for officers to belt prisoners if they're agitated.
"It is not always possible or safe for officers to enter the rear of those transport vans that are very small, and this one was very small."
But Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said Thursday that here are no circumstances under which a prisoner should not be wearing a seatbelt during transport and "that's part of our investigation.
"Much like any other vehicle, you seatbelt people in and it's our responsibility to make sure people are safely transported," Batts said, "especially if their hands are behind their back."
www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/24/baltimore-police-prisoner-transport-under-scrutiny-after-past-death-possible/
Related: Shackledom "marriage" (1771)
Seat belts are in case of collision, not driving around.
Or in airplanes, they keep you near the controls.
In Chicago you would just find the cops, and snuff the fuckers out.
Protesting is like having a tantrum.
So many questions...
IIRC, the referenced seat belt policy was made effective 3 days before this incident and was not well communicated within the police force.
I'm curious how you enforce a seat belt policy when the arrested party is alone in the van compartment.
I'll assume the van had been upgraded to provide seat belts. Is the new policy to force prisoners to use a seat belt if they object? How does one do so?
If there a reason Gray could not fasten the seat belt himself?
How do we know the van was driven in a way that caused the injuries?
As Gahrie said, "If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?
As we saw in Ferguson, this will take a while to sort out. The sorting out is, of course, delayed by the highly charged situation. The highly charged situation is, of course, fueled by the lack of factual clarity, a vicious circle.
The facts are still murky and this is a leak, which may or may not be accurate. But pretty clearly both the design of the van and the police procedures (or lack of them) were risky to prisoners.
This is also the first time that I have seen that the other prisoner was not in the van for the entire time that Gray was.
If that's indeed what happened, it's pretty horrifying. But the fact that someone else was in and not injured suggests that it might not be the case, so I'm still reserving judgment.
Seems like police transport vehicles should have one of those tracking devices, like Progressive uses to make sure that you're a safe driver. I do hope that we can get a better understanding of what happened.
""If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?"
Maybe it has. We don't know.
So how did he get out of the seat belt? Did he unbuckle it himself or did the officers not put him in it? Why not wait til more info develops before putting picture of iron maidens up?
Body cams on all prisoners!!
"If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?"
There is an old practice called the "rough ride." The NYT had an article about that.
In this case, I'd say the van is not a death trap if it's used correctly, according to the policy of strapping the man in.
But I ask you to picture yourself in this situation, with your legs shackled together and unbelted, stuck in the closed rear compartment, feeling the van is being driven in a way to cause you to knock around inside, then taking a few hard shakes or hits and that jar you loose from whatever grip you'd been trying to use to protect yourself. What would happen to an unbelted body after unconsciousness? The driver of the van is unable to see what is going on.
The only excuse I can think of is to say that the man unbuckled himself.
These are small vans, but the other prisoner was separated from Gray by a metal partition.
So he was riding up front with the driver?
Why was that?
And what policy would allow it?
There is indeed still more questions than answers about what went on here.
"There is still a lot more to this story than is available."
Yes and the riots have completely discredited any real investigation. General Patton died from a broken neck in a trivial auto accident. I have seen others where the mechanism of injury was not obvious.
Why was he shackled, though ?
If black people really wanted to fix this mess they'd understand that conservative white people are also appalled by the Freddie Gray story and would reach out to join hands. But black leadership doesn't want to see those hands joined, so it won't happen. So there will be more Freddy Grays and Eric Garners and Tamir Rices.
Cops need to understand that administration of street justice is not part of their job description.
"It's nice to see that you amplify the WP's "police are evil" POV. After all, the riots must be justified!"
You're just making things up.
Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things? There should be more attention to the details of police work. We should all insist that the police behave properly. How would you want your son treated if he were picked up on the street some day? That's what "Black lives matter" means.
This doesn't excuse the crimes protesters commit. Protests ought to be done properly or the protesters lose support. The violence is a terrible distraction from what people are trying to say.
There is an old practice called the "rough ride." The NYT had an article about that.
The New York Times? Well, that changes everything.
(I thought the other prisoner said the ride was not all that rough.)
One wonders where using such Medieval Machines of Torture could arise from in a colony of refuge granted by Charles I to Cecil Calvert, also called Lord Baltimore. Maryland still proudly bears his family's crest on its flag.
The message seems to be don't mess with Lord Baltimore's City, where The Inquisition still lives.
I'm a little surprised at AA coming off the bench contaminating the situation with prejudice about facts assumed and unknown.
Nobody here knows what went on in the back of that van....but I know of a medical person in a large city who says that when arrested, perps often shout, "I can't breathe" all the time in order to avoid any rough treatment and in hopes they'll have a claim against the police (either one). And the city is not New York.
Shackled feet, but his hands were free right? The case from JackofVA has the man handcuffed behind his back---I can certainly see how that would cause injury. But if your hands are free to brace yourself, then it becomes less likely to me.
Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things?
Because the left tells them that they're children.
So, you shackle a man, put him in a van with jutting bolts, and then you drive the van in such a way that he slams into things hard enough to cause multiple injuries, and the man dies of those injuries.
So, you repeat a left wing media meme, based on...what?
How about purposely slamming your head to cause injury so you can sue the police?
I see the possibility never crossed you mind...even though it appears where this is headed.
It also appears he has a long history of bogus lawsuits, including injesting lead paint.
I'm with Althouse on this one. Placing a completely innocent prisoner into a coffin-sized container filled with iron spikes and dragging him behind a police van is beyond the pale. Wake up people!
That's horrible. I know I'm not in Baltimore, but I'm allowed to torch a few cars and burn down my CVS now, right? I'm pretty sure that's what Ta-Nehisi Coates said.
The Daily Mail, which appears to have assigned an entire squadron of reporters to this story, asks "where's the bolt?"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3063643/Where-s-bolt-killed-Freddie-Gray-Standard-issue-police-van-SMOOTH-cage-doors-raising-questions-leaked-medical-report-says-fall-paddy-wagon-caused-catastrophic-injury.html
The general population of America has by-and-large given up on the wastelands of the Big Cities.
The Government has given up, too, occasionally shoveling money to imitate compassion.
Many of the people in these areas have given up on themselves.
The police are giving up the pretense of making a difference.
The fatigue of inertia.
I am Laslo.
I'm a little surprised at AA coming off the bench
It's sudden Althouse. You just never can predict.
She's into something, or something's into her rather.
It's like one of those pictures where you try to find all the animals traced upside down and backwards in the background. Those are little traumas.
Always wear your seatbelt doing those things.
Urban neighborhoods hold the galaxies together.
"The violence is a terrible distraction from what people are trying to say."
Yes, THAT's what's wrong with the rioting and destruction -- it's so distracting.
Youngsters believe if anyone anywhere didn't have to work for something, it's only fair if they themselves should be given everything they want.
Marxism via indoctrination that, like Buckley said, leaves these jerks thinking they are original and brilliant instead of insect-imitating emotion bots.
To those who want to point fingers at a possible "rough ride". I would ask this.
We know there was another prisoner in the van who could of attested to this "rough ride". He didn't.
The van made four stops before arriving at a police station, including one that police officials on Thursday said they had not initially known about. They said that stop was captured by a private security camera but did not provide additional details.
Donut shops commonly have security cameras. I wonder when the overwhelmingly Democratic Party-ness of Baltimore will be mentioned in the paper.
We know there was another prisoner in the van who could of [sic] attested to this "rough ride". He didn't.
Is he keeping his mouth shut because he's in the legal system now and has to deal with Police? Or did he actually not see anything?
What's the Rumsfeld quote about unknowns knowns? It seems apt here, even if I can't remember it.
I'm not sure what happened here. Initially, I was convinced this injury had to have been caused by the police. It's starting to appear I was wrong.
I do know that 100's, if not thousands of actual incidents of police abuse happen weekly.
Like with rape cases, how can it be that the media seemingly always focus on the wrong ones?
Coincidence?
I prefer Judas Priest to Iron Maiden. If I had to pick.
I am Laslo.
The inside of the Police torture device vans are polished stainless steel roof, floor and walls about three feet wide with a 10 inch bench seat running the length. There is nothing to hold onto. Each compartment is half as wide as the van itself since the van is divided two compartmented sides by a floor to ceiling steel center wall.
It is designed for plausible deniability for intentionally inflicted injury.
Think of the scenes we see in seat belt warnings. If a vehicle going 30 mph stops suddenly, the occupants' bodies keep going until they crash into the windshield at 30 mph.
The City has payed out millions for shackled, healthy black men thrown into these machines who come out paraplegic at the end of the "rough ride."
But Baltimore City is like the honebadger. They just don't care. Accidents happen in the Inquisition.
We know there was another prisoner in the van who could of attested to this "rough ride". He didn't.
I don't think that tells us much. Say someone in police custody saw police murder another person in police custody. Would he be quick to tell about it or perhaps more concerned with self-preservation?
Is he keeping his mouth shut because he's in the legal system now and has to deal with Police? Or did he actually not see anything?
Or, he fears his homey's will see him as a snitch...you decide.
"Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things?"
I don't believe that the destructive behavior is because of frustration. The anti-social tendencies of the rioters are bubbling up because of the opportunity that was presented to them.
Interesting factiod-
The Prosecutor is BFF with the Mayor.
The Prosecutor is married to the City Councilman that represents the riot district.
I worked in the parking department of my university while I was in college. Every day we would take our cash to the on campus bank for deposit, riding in a campus police car for safety.
I will NEVER forget that one of the officers kept his plastic seat meticulously coated in Armorall. We would slide side to side on even the slightest turn at 20mph. We at least had our hands free to catch ourselves and maintain balance. I can imagine that were I cuffed, that would have been a "rough ride". The officer seemed to think it was funny...
The other prisoner was not picked up until the fourth stop after the rough ride was finished. He was a reason to quit torturing Gray and head on into the jail. And he served as a cover story for the near dead man they had seen at the third secret stop.
This other prisoner was also used to start speculation when he said that he heard Gray beating his own vertebra as an insane man committing suicide.
The medical examiner says the injuries were consistent with a man in a violent automobile collision.
But so far every talking head sweetly intones "we just have no facts yet." Demanding that we cannot discuss it anymore than we can discuss Vince Foster's suicide yet.
That's the cover up, stupid.
I've been arrested for protesting. Our hands were tied behind with plastic ties and then they threw us in the van on top of each other and drove off. You don't want to be touching the sides the sides of a metal van on a bumpy ride. The metal vibrates in a nasty way. So bracing against jolts isn't that easy. Jolts come because of potholes. We assisted each other and nothing much happened.
If Freddie Gray, alone in the van, did anything but brace himself as well as he could, if he stood up and banged on the sides in rage then he could easily have been thrown around in the van. If it went around a corner he would continue in a straight line because of inertia and could easily slam against a projecting bolt and break his neck instead of just getting a shaking up.
What the rioters are saying is that the vans have been shaking people up for a long time but the Democrats running the city never listen unless there is riot. A riot is the only way to make the Democrats of Baltimore listen.
But what I say is that a riot is the only to make Democrats listen IF THEY KNOW YOU WILL ALWAYS VOTE FOR THEM NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO OR DON'T DO !!!!
You can burn down your neighborhood or you can vote Republican. Which is worse?
Not sure if everyone is aware all 6 officers have been charged.
Murder 2, manslaughter, on down to negligence
Hands and feet shackled, thrown head first face down into van. Requested medical help several times, ignored, despite stopping to check on him, riding around for half hour unrestrained in medical distress, breathing difficulty, ignored, instead of providing medical help, officer stopped to help arrest another prisoner. This was an illegal arrest, his knife was legal. Good for the State attorney. Hope justice is served.
It doesn't matter what political party a mayor belongs to. It's the culture of police getting away with murder for far too long that is the issue. Voting Republican would not have made any difference. .
"How would you want your son treated if he were picked up on the street some day? That's what "Black lives matter" means."
No, that's not what it means. It means that, no matter how much of a thug the kid was, nobody can touch him.
"You can burn down your neighborhood or you can vote Republican. Which is worse?"
Yes. Tough question.
Just added the update: homicide, 6 officers charged.
Traditional guy wrote:
"The City has payed out millions for shackled, healthy black men thrown into these machines who come out paraplegic at the end of the "rough ride."
But Baltimore City is like the honebadger. They just don't care. Accidents happen in the Inquisition."
but by same token. Cops don't determine the specs of police vans. They are give a van and have to use what's given. If there is a long history of people being shackled in back of vans dying because of injury, then the city should have Some something to fix the issue.
Also, if they literally started a policy about belting people in the back of th van it may well be that it hadn't yet filtered down to those who were driving that today and it may take some time to get used to new protocols.
Just added the update: homicide, 6 officers charged.
It's a step in the right direction, I guess. But will we ever know what really happened? I doubt it.
Also cops could have not given him a rough ride but merely hit a pot hole. Which would produce the same effect.
I've ridden on streets where the entire block is bumpy all the way. So maybe the city is at fault for not fixing the street
I'm enjoying seeing the police union squeal on this one. I'm glad to see they charged all of the arresting officers. "Making eye contact" then "fleeing" is not a reason to arrest someone.
I'm a little surprised how fast things moved, especially as the prosecutor has a family full of police including both of her parents (or at least I have seen it reported as so.)
Hopefully this will calm things down and restore some faith that the system can work.
The odds still favor him beating himself up.
You're just making things up.
And you're arguing hypotheticals.
We went through this with Martin/Zimmerman. Lots of hyperbolic assumptions that later turned out to be completely false.
"Making eye contact" then "fleeing" is not a reason to arrest someone.
Not exactly. Legal Insurrection has good analysis on the difference between a "stop" and an "arrest". There was good cause to stop him, and when he resisted, arrest him:
"Clarifying the Constitutional thresholds for a Terry stop versus an actual arrest"
http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/05/was-freddie-grays-arrest-lawful-almost-certainly/
Like the ruffled collar and headpiece. Even torture demanded art in those days.
Adding to wildswan's comment above.
I believe all these riots have happened in America's deepest blue states and cities.
Can anyone think of an exception?
"Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things? There should be more attention to the details of police work. We should all insist that the police behave properly. How would you want your son treated if he were picked up on the street some day? That's what "Black lives matter" means."
I agree. However, having been both poor and white, I can assure you that the police do not limit their misbehavior to blacks.
The fact of the matter is that bad cops aren't going to target well connected, educated, upper class people, such as, for instance, a law professor.
Poor people without resources to hire a decent attorney and low status in the community are the ones that are going to be getting the "nickel ride."
Dave Chappelle presented this situation in a rather amusing manner. You can find his take here:
Definitely NSFW.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-show-tron-carter-s--law---order----uncensored
Black lives only matter apparently when a white cop is killing them.
Big indictment just came down with six cops indicted, one for second degree murder.
Officer Caesar Goodson — the driver of the police van — was charged with second-degree depraved heart murder, ...
Heart murder??
"Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things?"
Wasn’t there a fallacy about the Rooster’s Crow and the Sunrise? Yes the two events are related, but one does not cause the other.
People may be frustrated with police misconduct, but the destruction is not caused by that frustration. Do you really think that good-government types are so upset about lawlessness that they decide to set some fires? Imagine a person who is so fed up with the po-po running wild, they just care so much about justice that they are going to loot the hair salon next door?
The destruction is caused by violent people who want to smash windows and steal things and raise a ruckus with limited chance of being caught because of the general chaos.
Time to reconsider being a cop. Let the thugs have the city, and let Al Sharpton and his merry racemongers patrol it.
Why not the old fashioned "murdered with premeditation because he was black" that rioters were seeking?
Interesting how they are going prove the cops deliberately killed him by not putting on his seat belt.
Time to reconsider being a cop.
Same with the military.
It only seems like we are entering an age of anarchy....in the Age of Obama.
We now have 6 charged and very few facts. It is hard to know where the legal issues start and the political issues end.
I think mob rule just won...
Ann Althouse said...Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things?
So a group understandably feels it is being mistreated, not having its concerns taken seriously, not being treated equally before the law, and some in that group is acting badly as part of an attempt to react to that mistreatment (to protest it, raise awareness, get revenge, etc).
Shouldn't your response be something like:
"I laugh in [their] scrunched up crying little face[s]?"
That whole city is dirty. The DA is married to one of the riot instigators.
The cops just got to see the underside of the bus.
Seat Belt PSA from the 1970's
It's like no one mentioned this article by David Simon, creator of "The Wire."
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish
an excerpt:
The drug war began it, certainly, but the stake through the heart of police procedure in Baltimore was Martin O’Malley. He destroyed police work in some real respects. Whatever was left of it when he took over the police department, if there were two bricks together that were the suggestion of an edifice that you could have called meaningful police work, he found a way to pull them apart.
A long article but horrific.
I don't excuse the rioters, but parts of Baltimore have been weeping sores for a long time.
They've charged Caesar and Nero! SPQR delenda est!
Caesar's heart was depraved!
FYI: Iron maidens were invented in the 19th century -- maybe in the very late 18th. They were never used on anyone. They're hoaxes.
"I'm more inclined to believe the original testimony of the other prisoner; that Gray was deliberately trying to injury himself, probably to file complaints against the officers."
It wasn't the "original testimony." The other prisoner's allegation--who couldn't see Gray--was reported days later than the reported allegations the police had given Gray a "nickel ride," (aka "rough ride"). We can assume with fair certainty the other prisoner was pressured or bribed (or both) to offer his ameliorating tale.
If Gray was placed in the van, bound but not restrained by seat belts, it's a certainty he was tossed around inside the moving police van, resulting in his injuries. It's a convenient, and possibly oft-told tale, that "the suspect injured himself," but like many "oft-told tales," a fiction more often than not.
Yeah - once the person is under LEO control, LEOs have the obligation to make sure that the person is not needlessly harmed. There is a duty there.
Add to that the issue of whether the arrest was even legally warranted, and it appears you have death by cop. Death by cop should not be legally ignored.
Ann Althouse retorts:
Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things? There should be more attention to the details of police work. We should all insist that the police behave properly. How would you want your son treated if he were picked up on the street some day? That's what "Black lives matter" means.
Let me know about your joy and sense of justice if one of your sons' homes or place of employment was torched by thugs.
Am I (and others) misreading you or are you too justifying the destruction?
"If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?"
It has.
Robert Cook adds: We can assume with fair certainty the other prisoner was pressured or bribed (or both) to offer his ameliorating tale.
You assume that merely to undermine his credibility, n'est-ce pas?
Browndog said...
Interesting how they are going prove the cops deliberately killed him by not putting on his seat belt.
The prosecution's theory is not that the cops deliberately killed him. It's that they engaged in intentional illegal acts intending harm which resulted in his death.
This compares very closely to felony-murder statutes, where the law denies the result of committing a felony must be treated by law as an "accident" even if it was unintentional.
I agree Big Mike. After reading the comments here and on Instapussy since the skittles assassination, it really boggles the mind why more blacks are not flocking to the republican party.
I have no idea if this is correct or not, but it's plausible:
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/prison.htm
Boils down to criminality in the black population being higher than in the non-black population. As a result, the criminal justice system has more negative interaction with the black population, which in "disparate impact" because it is clearly and "adverse impact" on a protected class (racial minority). So unless criminality becomes a protected activity based on racial preferences (set asides for rioting? apparently already there), there isn't a good answer except to take steps to restore the rates of criminality in black to a more normal distribution.
The prosecution's theory is not that the cops deliberately killed him. It's that they engaged in intentional illegal acts intending harm which resulted in his death.
Like I said, good luck getting there.
Purposely driving erratically, knowing he wasn't seat belted would be an intentional act to cause harm.
Or, knowing anyone not seat belted in the van will be harmed.
Just the act of not seat belting, a policy that just changed 2 days before this incident, is not enough...in my opinion.
Browndog said...
Purposely driving erratically, knowing he wasn't seat belted would be an intentional act to cause harm.
Or, knowing anyone not seat belted in the van will be harmed.
Just the act of not seat belting, a policy that just changed 2 days before this incident, is not enough...in my opinion.
A) The only reason for the driver to treat Gray like this was at the direction of the arresting officers. I'm discounting that the driver did it for fun.
B) The policy didn't change. They were required to transport those under their control safely. The policy was clarified, but since the overriding rule didn't change this should not be a defense.
Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things?
Uh, because violent mobs victimising innocent people is self-evidently awful? In American discourse, there's this loathsome and perverse narrative that well, Group A are oppressed by Group B, and therefore it's understandable and even almost excusable in an "omelettes and eggs" sort of way when Group A goes to burn down Group C's homes and businesses.
This is mode of thought is fundamentally sick and wrong.
We recognise that this way of thinking is evil when we look at history, and see poor medieval Poles or Spaniards -- oppressed and mistreated to be sure -- turn around and burn Jewish ghettos. It's abominable that in our present day we cannot condemn this sort of evil without temporising and seeking some excuse for these acts.
This doesn't excuse the crimes protesters commit. Protests ought to be done properly or the protesters lose support. The violence is a terrible distraction from what people are trying to say.
Perhaps, but that's the least important part of why the violence is bad. The violence is bad because it is bad, not just in the instrumental sense that it detracts from the protesters' "message."
It's like saying that the biggest problem with locking up innocent men on trumped up rape charges is that actual rape victims will be deterred from coming forward when it turns out the rape allegations were lies. That may be true! But men falsely accused or imprisoned are the real victims in cases of false accusation, and we should not turn our eyes from them and the malice worked against them.
In this case, the victims are, in order, (1) the poor fellow who died in police custody, and (2) the innocent people whose property is being stolen or destroyed by these rioters. Longer down the road, other victims will include the people whose property was not destroyed, perhaps, but who tried to live in peace, and did not riot -- people whose neighbourhoods and businesses will be depressed in years to come by the evil name the rioters have won for their communities. Some of these people are protesters, I am sure, although it is not because they are protesters that they are victims, but because they were peaceful.
The protesters who are discrediting their cause with riots don't even rate. They are the ones working this evil on their communities.
And for what? So they could see the police officers prosecuted? The situation looked pretty self-evidently bad for the police, given that the man died in police custody. Would they not have been prosecuted but for the sack of Baltimore?
I ordered Season 1 of The Wire. Sounds educational.
To anyone simply trying to understand the facts, as opposed to rushing to judgment this is very confusing.
We need more information, plus I'm skeptical anytime a liberal prosecutor and politics are involved.
And I'd love to know how all six officers committed "Homicide" if Gray's death was caused by injuries in the Van. Were all six driving? Were all six in the van? If you're a junior cop don't you defer to the senior Cop in terms of whether to stop or get help?
Officer Caesar Goodson — the driver of the police van — was charged with second-degree depraved heart murder, ...
Heart murder??
No.."depraved heart" murder..or murder with a depraved heart.
Michael K said:
I ordered Season 1 of The Wire. Sounds educational.
I envy anyone watching that for the first time.
And none of this can excuse the rioters or the looters who've caused millions in damages and injuries to others.
Nor does it excuse people like TN Coates who encourage violence and riots.
No.."depraved heart" murder..or murder with a depraved heart.
Yes, I figured that out. Thus my 11:46 comment.
The charge terms "murder with depraved heart" were not in my lexicon.
Is there a panoply of murder charges with other heart adjectives?
"depraved heart, cold heart, callous heart, cheatin' heart," etc.?
A) The only reason for the driver to treat Gray like this was at the direction of the arresting officers. I'm discounting that the driver did it for fun.
Treat Gray like what?
B) The policy didn't change. They were required to transport those under their control safely. The policy was clarified, but since the overriding rule didn't change this should not be a defense.
True, it was the policy, but was never SOP. For anyone. Police have cited the reason is that it leaves them vulnerable to biting, spitting by HIV prisoners.
As far as the "rough ride", police maintain that practice ended following the law suits/new police chief.
Beware, the creators of The Wire are socialists.
The Wire=Socialist Propaganda
"Just the act of not seat belting, a policy that just changed 2 days before this incident, is not enough...in my opinion."
Subjecting bound suspects to "nickel Rides" aka "rough rides" is an old and widespread police practice. The only reason to put a shackled prisoner in a police van and not buckle him in is to subject him to this form of "hands off" torture. There's no way the police could have been unaware of what punishment Gray would experience, or that they didn't intend it.
"Wasn’t there a fallacy about the Rooster’s Crow and the Sunrise? Yes the two events are related, but one does not cause the other."
Of course, one causes the other!
We need more information, plus I'm skeptical anytime a liberal prosecutor and politics are involved.
I'd add Valerie Jarret, Al Sharpton, and the DOJ.
Further, at the end of the State Attorneys press conference, it turned into an Obama speech....fundamental change/social justice/we are the one's we've been waiting for/yes we can..
(still looking for a transcript)
So once again the police haters are making crap up. We have no idea whether the police were trying to give Gray a "rough ride" or not.
"Of course, one causes the other!"
Yes, one certainly causes the other: the rising of the sun causes the rooster to crow!
Browndog said...
Treat Gray like what?
Give him a "rough ride".
As far as the "rough ride", police maintain that practice ended following the law suits/new police chief.
The dead guy seems pretty strong evidence to the contrary.
I assume the "80% of his spinal cord was severed" will turn out to be false.
What kind of police department is Baltimore running that that many cops thought they could get away with it?
And you have to wonder if the Police have been giving prisoners "rough rides" for years, how come Gray is the only one who was killed by a van ride.
Someone just tweeted that a prosecutor "ruled" homicide. I thought that verb was restricted to judges.
Amiright?
"What kind of police department is Baltimore running that that many cops thought they could get away with it?"
Get away with what? They haven't been convicted of anything. We don't even have all the facts.
Freeman Hunt said...
What kind of police department is Baltimore running that that many cops thought they could get away with it?
Tried and convicted in your eyes?
Freeman Hunt said...
What kind of police department is Baltimore running that that many cops thought they could get away with it?
The same kind that is run in most other cities of similar size and history. One that preaches that loyalty to other cops comes first.
"We have no idea whether the police were trying to give Gray a 'rough ride' or not."
So you're a rough-ride denier, huh? Check your f***ing privilege and get with the narrative.
Follow the allegations through due process and either conviction or acquittal.
Still, it is telling what stories reach and propagate through the national press, while others are squelched or buried. The disparity is stark. It's almost as if they are leading with the creation of actionable political narratives. Perhaps this one will have legs.
The dead guy seems pretty strong evidence to the contrary.
I was dead certain of it too, initially.
Now, I am very much more open to the possibility Gray tried to injure himself so he could sue the police.
We'll see what the evidence brings.
rcocean said...
And you have to wonder if the Police have been giving prisoners "rough rides" for years, how come Gray is the only one who was killed by a van ride.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-rough-rides-20150423-story.html#page=1
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis.
I've been reading ad infinitum about the "long-standing police practice of the 'rough ride'".
I have yet to see a credible source for this "long-standing practice".
The New York Times' writers must have just forgotten where they first heard this story.
Browndog said...
Now, I am very much more open to the possibility Gray tried to injure himself so he could sue the police.
We'll see what the evidence brings.
Of course new evidence could change the relative likelihoods, but I put no weight in anonymous cops telling institutional-exculpating stories.
Internal affairs, where are you?
How do you throw yourself against a wall hard enough for your injuries to be consistent with a violent vehicle collision? I get that a person can hurt himself badly, but a person is not a motor vehicle and does not possess the same power.
All Lord Baltimore's City needed was Transport Van cameras to catch up to the post Rodney King world sensitivities.
Those damn cameras in Jails have cut by 90% the rate of poor men being seriously injured and faces being smashed in by falls that happen to drunken DUI prisoners.
But it's not race. It's class hierarchy enforcement.
The prosecution's theory
Theory?? Throw as much shit as possible, and hope something sticks.
Freeman: You are forgetting your fellow red-state conservative narrative that "thugs" have superhuman strength similar to gorillas.
Robert Cook: "Of course, one causes the other!"
"Yes, one certainly causes the other: the rising of the sun causes the rooster to crow"
Thank goodness Captain "cookie" Obvious offered up that clarification!
Here are the charges (by officer):
“Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., 45, who was the driver of a police van that carried Gray through the streets of Baltimore, was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, second-degree assault, two vehicular manslaughter charges and misconduct in office. . . ..
Officer William Porter, 25, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Lt. Brian Rice, 41, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Sgt. Alicia White, 30, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Officer Edward Nero, 29, was charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Officer Garrett Miller, 26, was charged with second-degree assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.
If convicted of all charges, Goodson would face up to 63 years in prison. Rice would face up to 30 years and Porter, Nero, Miller and White would face up to 20 years.”
I haven’t read the statutes to see how the possible maximum sentences should stack but it seems to me that Porter, Rice and White (each charged with involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault and misconduct in office) should be facing the same maximum possible sentence followed by Miller and then Nero.
Howard: "Freeman: You are forgetting your fellow red-state conservative narrative that "thugs" have superhuman strength similar to gorillas."
Howard, you are forgetting your fellow blue-state leftist narrative that persons of color have never been and never could be guilty of crimes.
Similar to democrats at large.
Of course new evidence could change the relative likelihoods, but I put no weight in anonymous cops telling institutional-exculpating stories.
What you call "no weight" I put in to the realm of possibility.
many have seemed to dismiss all but one possibility...again, still.
Browndog said...
What you call "no weight" I put in to the realm of possibility.
Placing "no weight" on the officers statement doesn't mean his version is not "in the realm of possibility". It means his assertion doesn't change the likelihood of that possibility relative to other possibilities.
"Of course, one causes the other!"
To be precise-- the sun does not rise at all, the earth rotates on its axis. But you knew that, and you knew my meaning.
Trying to make police brutality and looters into a cause and effect is incorrect and sloppy. Rioters are not concerned with police brutality, arsonists are not worried about constitutional abuses of Miranda. Clowns showboating on the TV and posting selfies on Instagram of themselves throwing bricks are not defenders of civil rights and they are not protestors.
Dirty Police need a fair trial and a just sentence if convicted. Dirty street criminals should get the same- and not given some elevated status that they are ‘frustrated’ or ‘disadvantaged’ or any other air quoted –mamby pamby silliness.
Freeman Hunt said...
How do you throw yourself against a wall hard enough for your injuries to be consistent with a violent vehicle collision?
I missed the part that said there was a vehicular collision. What did the van hit? Was it damaged? How fast was it going? Are these facts in evidence?
"Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., 45, who was the driver of a police van that carried Gray through the streets of Baltimore, was charged with...two vehicular manslaughter charges and misconduct in office."
Were two people killed or was one person killed twice?
Freeman Hunt said...
How do you throw yourself against a wall hard enough for your injuries to be consistent with a violent vehicle collision?
The same way that a van braking hard causes injuries consistent with a violent vehicle collision.
Neither is possible. It is possible for either to cause injuries consistent with a more moderate vehicle accident.
You know, I have no idea whether the police officers are guilty, but the mass charges against multiple cops give every appearance of being filed to appease mob violence, which is kind of frightening.
Particularly when the state's attorney, in announcing the charges, makes a point to say that "I heard your call for No Justice, No Peace." I'm sure a defense attorney might find some way to make use of that statement.
I continue to be amazed at how people feel qualified or justified in weighing in on what they think happened or what will happen, when they have no direct knowledge of what the evidence is.
From OJ to Zimmerman to this most recent case, when asked about them by friends eager to hear the view of a career prosecutor I reply "It's not my case. I don't know what happened. I probably will watch little if any of the trial, so I won't pretend to expound on it. I have my own work to worry about."
People have a right to talk about something in the public forum, but I just don't get it. It's like trying to talk about a football game when you only know who one of the teams is.
Speaking of 'No justice, no peace', what's happened with the shooting a few months ago in Wisconsin?
Larvell wrote:
You know, I have no idea whether the police officers are guilty, but the mass charges against multiple cops give every appearance of being filed to appease mob violence, which is kind of frightening.
Visualize World Appeasement
Game, set, match, Wilbur.
The charges of wilfully roughing up Fred Gray seem inconsistent with the rather gentle way the officers loaded him into the van as shown on the video.
It seems that a lot of Baltimore politicians are related to each other.
If the police vans are such death traps, why hasn't this happened before now?
From a Baltimore Sun article -- Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries:
Relatives of Dondi Johnson Sr., who was left a paraplegic after a 2005 police van ride, won a $7.4 million verdict against police officers. A year earlier, Jeffrey Alston was awarded $39 million by a jury after he became paralyzed from the neck down as the result of a van ride. ...
Christine Abbott, a 27-year-old assistant librarian at the Johns Hopkins University, is suing city officers in federal court, alleging that she got such a ride in 2012. According to the suit, officers cuffed Abbott’s hands behind her back, threw her into a police van, left her unbuckled and “maniacally drove” her to the Northern District police station, “tossing [her] around the interior of the police van.”
“They were braking really short so that I would slam against the wall, and they were taking really wide, fast turns,” Abbott said in an interview that mirrored allegations in her lawsuit. “I couldn’t brace myself. I was terrified.”
From the transcript: Marylin Mosby announcing charges.
2nd paragraph:
To the thousands of city residents, community organizers and faith leaders and political leaders that chose to march peacefully throughout Baltimore. I commend your courage to stand for justice. I also commend the brave men and women both in uniform and out who have stepped up Monday Night to protect our community from those who wish to destroy it.
Last paragraph:
Last but certainly not least, to the youth of the city. I will seek justice on your behalf. This is a moment. This is your moment. Let’s insure we have peaceful and productive rallies that will develop structural and systemic changes for generations to come. You’re at the forefront of this cause and as young people, our time is now."
Yes we can!
Why in the world do these police vans not have cameras in them recording at all times? There is no reason we should have any doubt whatsoever what happened in the back of that van.
" especially as the prosecutor has a family full of police including both of her parents (or at least I have seen it reported as so.)"
She also has myriad conflicts of interest with her husband and the family lawyer, not to mention her pal Al.
Part of being a law and order conservative is wanting law and order all the way through. Obviously the vans should have cameras. I'm shocked that they don't. School buses already had cameras when I was a child, and that was 25 years ago.
Of course, one causes the other!
Ah, but is it really so clear cut as to warrant an “of course”? Someone commented in an earlier thread that in his experience roosters oftentimes begin crowing several hours before the actual dawn. If true (and I don't have sufficient experience living around chickens myself to say), then — except in high latitude regions where the sun can skirt just below the horizon — the rooster crowing can't possibly be caused by the sun coming up that day: there just is not yet the slightest amount of daylight in the sky that the bird can use as a clue.
So what is the cause in that case? Presuming the chicken isn't watching the moon or utilizing some other external physical method that would indicate to him just where the sun is, then I would say that the most likely agent would be the bird's own internal clock, that cues him (just like we use our own intermal clocks) that the night is close to being over.
But in that case, though the rooster's internal clock was calibrated by eons of the sun reliably coming up in the past, his crowing isn't caused by or even dependent on the sun being there today at all. Perhaps it has vanished overnight — and still the rooster will crow.
There were two other prisoners in the same van. I'm assuming that they (unlike Gray) were strapped in. Even so, what happened?
Ann,
Why are people so frustrated that they are doing destructive things? There should be more attention to the details of police work. We should all insist that the police behave properly. How would you want your son treated if he were picked up on the street some day? That's what "Black lives matter" means.
I don't know. Why are people so "frustrated" that their answer to police misconduct is to throw a brick through a random car's window, or loot a drugstore? These things have zero to do with their "frustration," unless said frustration includes an urgent need for oxycodone.
Iron Maiden? EXCELLENT!!!
---"Yes, one certainly causes the other: the rising of the sun causes the rooster to crow"
Thank goodness Captain "cookie" Obvious offered up that clarification!----
He stole that one from Lanny Davis last week on Fox Sunday.
"Obviously the vans should have cameras."
No, they shouldn't until we get more info. How people break their necks or sustain massive injuries being transported to the police station?
Answer that question with a significant number and I'd agree to cameras.
Sorry, I'm skeptical that large numbers of people are being brutalized while being transported to Jail.
We've had motorized paddy wagons for 90 years.
Abbott said in an interview that mirrored allegations in her lawsuit. “I couldn’t brace myself. I was terrified.”
Terrified but uninjured. But hopefully much richer for it.
And of course, no one would ever lie for money. So Abbott must be telling the whole truth.
The question is this: What doesn't the sun cause?
We know without the sun we wouldn't have whatever you're thinking, ergo I win. Reap Sow. Reapsow.
Peapshows reapsow lacking.
No, they shouldn't until we get more info. How people break their necks or sustain massive injuries being transported to the police station?
You wouldn't need any indication of police wrongdoing to think that police vans should have cameras. Shouldn't there be cameras on violent people while they're being transported? Wouldn't this help protect officers from being falsely accused of brutality?
Well, we shall see how this all develops, but several things stand out from the facts as we know them.
First, as per the maps that the BBC and Daily Mail show, the van did not take him directly to the station where he was eventually booked (why not?) but instead of heading due South to there, headed SE, then circled back to the NW.
Second, why was the fourth stop (first one chronologically, with #2 apparently being to shackle his legs, #3 being to check on him, and #4 to pick up the 2nd prisoner) not revealed earlier to the investigators?
Third, we know that he was handcuffed with his hands behind him when he was put in the van so he apparently had no way to hold onto anything. Also, apparently he was not buckled in in contravention of policy. Why is this, since it could be ignorance or malice?
Fourth, is there any indication of van speed and movements (GPS tracking, perhaps) as well as the street condition on the route he took to the police station?
Bottom line, this looks very suspicious, although my suspicion this is a case of negligence and manslaugher versus an attempt to kill Mr. Gray (unless evidence came out of other actions resulting in deaths of prisoners by these police or BPD).
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