"If the change is approved, the Republic of Ireland would become the first country to legalise same-sex marriage through a popular vote."
Nice work, Ireland!
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७० टिप्पण्या:
"The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Eamon Martin, has said the church may look at whether it continues to perform the civil side of solemnisation if the change comes in."
This sounds about what should happen here.
"A separate referendum, on whether the eligibility age of presidential candidates should be lowered from 35 to 21, was being held at the same time, along with a parliamentary by-election in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency."
Why stop there ? How about age 7 ?
At least the Irish had a vote. Here in formerly the world's greatest republic, unelected federal judges have imposed their personal and political beliefs upon 330 million people.
The only legitimate way to make large societal changes such as legalization of same sex marriage is through referendum or legislation.
Were they sober when they voted?
Catholicism is dead in Europe. With 1000 Muslims coming ashore every day.
Anything Catholic, is as dead as their crackers and punch.
There is a big example of academic fraud regarding gay marriage. The Green/LaCouer report had fraudulent data. Professor Green has disowned the much heralded study in Science Mag, and LaCouer has lawyered up. Remember when we were told 10% of people are gay. Then an exhaustive CDC Study showed only 1.6% of people self identify as gay. Annie is a propagandist on this subject. Her gay son clouds her view, well that and the vino.
Yay! Now let's find out who voted against so they can be liquidated. Because a secret ballot shouldn't absolve people of responsibility for their bigotry.
Congrats to the Irish!!!
Another pro-choice policy in lieu if principles. Homosexuality represents a small subset of trans orientations. The equivalence movement is notable for excluding other heterosexual and trans behaviors.
I wonder how many women will rent their wombs to normalize male homosexual couplets, and how many men will sell their sperm to normalize female homosexual couplets. The debasement of human life through progressive morality is impressive, if not, unfortunately, novel.
So, the takeaway is that progressive (i.e. generational) liberals are amoral/immoral and anti-science (and self-evident knowledge). They selectively normalize or promote behaviors antithetical to evolutionary fitness for causes of wealth, pleasure, and leisure (i.e. opportunistically). Their only concern seems to be to secure the stability of their environment, secular profits, and marginalization and neutralization of their competing interests.
No constitutional penumbrae in Ireland? The will of the people as expressed through the vote is soooo 20th century. Perhaps they need a 14th Amendment so that they can dispense with the opinions of the proletariat.
Tim Pat Coogan, in his book, Ireland in the 20th Century, points out that there was only one piece of Church sponsored legislation that went down to defeat. The Church wanted to mandate that the pubs be closed at 10:30 pm on week nights, but they couldn't muster support for the bill......The sex scandals in Ireland, especially among the Irish Christian Brothers, were truly horrendous. The Church has lost its ability to speak out on matters of sexual morality.......I was raised as a Catholic and have more reasons than not to be grateful to the Church, but I wouldn't look to priests for guidance in sexual matters.
Does anyone know of a non-western society that is even willing to consider same sex marriage or civil unions? I can't think of any, but I might be wrong.......Gay marriage seems to be a western thing, and much of the animus directed against westerners is for their views on the rights of women and gays. Liberals feel it is a great crime for westerners to impose their values on others, but they make an exception in those two cases.
The Brits have said for years that they always wished the f--king Paddys would stop breeding.
Hey!
Next up for debate, is gay and lesbian divorce.
This is where the states make the big money, and employ all those law students.
sunsong said...
"Congrats to the Irish!!!"
Hear, hear. Let's do the same thing here. How about an Althouse poll to get things started?
"The Brits have said for years that they always wished the f--king Paddys would stop breeding"
Really? Most English don't give a shit about Ireland or the Irish. Or they think they're a quaint country that's good for a summer vacation.
I'd love to vote on Abortion or Gay Marriage or dual-citizenship or paying for an illegal aliens education or campaign finance reform or...
But our Nine Philosopher Kings have the final say.
and that's the way it should happen. Through popular vote.
I wonder what 100 million Mexicans think of Gay Marriage. Its amazing that we hear more about Ireland than our very large neighbor to the South.
Now if only they'd vote to drive on the right . . .
AND FIX THOSE DAMN ROADS!!!1!!1!!!
Can I have another Guinethh, pleasthh?
Just kidding. Seriously. I'm happy for everyone. Including those who aren't happy.
I'm against same-sex marriage but I don't care to fight that battle anymore because that battle is lost. I don't even want to talk about it.
Henceforth I'm resorting to the Benedict Option, in both the cultural and political spheres.
With exceptions: I remain involved with government/military agencies concerning certain Middle Eastern issues.
The homosexual/pedophile scandals in Ireland basically destroyed the Catholic Church in Ireland. In other words, the Catholic Church destroyed itself. Because of the conduct of gay/pedophile priests and of those who covered for their actions, the Catholic Church in Ireland is dead; Catholicism in Ireland is dead.
Gay men and women who are my friends tell me that Catholic priest pedophiles in Ireland and the U.S. are not gay and that the pedophile scandals should not be associated with being gay or the gay movement. They tell me that the being a pedophile has nothing to do with being gay. I tell them that they want to have it both ways; that they want to have their cake and eat it.
I'm bitter at gays because of this and until they change their attitudes in this and related matters I'll oppose their initiatives for advancing the gay agenda and my opposition will increase.
Gays, or rather a subset of the gay community (a term I use for wont of a better one), destroyed the Catholic Church in Ireland and have severely damaged Catholicism in the United States.
If Satan exists he could not have devised a more effective means of wrecking the Church.
And it should be noted that if he does exist he could not have devised a more effective means of turning people against gays.
If would seem that, if he does exist, he's intent on killing two birds with one stone and he's winning--so far. After the Church is destroyed he'll set about destroying gays.
I am not saying that being gay is satanic or that gays are servants of Satan. Far from it.
What I am saying is that we are all complicit to a greater or lesser degree, sometimes willingly, usually not, in enabling the evils of our times. Those who believe in Satan may say that we are being used by Satan to accomplish his evil ends. Those who don't believe in Satan may say that we are merely manifesting (and failing to constrain) the dark aspects of human nature.
I say: believe what you want. I'm withdrawing from the fray.
The push for gay marriage has nothing to do with marriage. It is a desire to normalize and promote homosexual behavior.
After this country legalizes gay marriage, we will see a drive to have rainbow stickers displayed in the window of brick-and-mortar businesses and web presences. Absence of these displays will be de facto bigotry, and, to avoid incitement, civil rights tribunals will be empowered to sanction anyone in the public square who doesn't go along.
In the end, the Pope didn't have enough divisions to overcome this Stalinist incursion.
Note: "the evils of our times" in the context of my post refers to pedophilia.
"Anything Catholic, is as dead as their crackers and punch."
I would amend that to say "Christian." I am an agnostic but I watch the destruction of our culture with foreboding.
One group has no doubts and they are headed for Europe.
ISIS is sending the 'prettiest virgins' they capture to slave markets in the Syrian city of Raqqa, where they are sold as sexual objects to the highest bidder, the United Nation's Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict has said.
After the depraved militants attack their villages, they strip the girls naked, conduct virginity tests, evaluate their bodies and send them to twisted auctions, Zainab Bangura claims.
Gay marriage will finally "win" about the time all is lost.
It's a good thing we in Amerika are ruled by a constitution rather than national referendum.
If our rights were determined by national referendum, we atheists and humanists would be tossed out along with Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists, and cop-killing of Black teenagers would be deemed OK. Men would be forced to marry and breed by the female majority.
The Catholic Church isnt dying, just Ireland.
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/ireland-dying-65407
Written two years ago.
No doubt the Catholic Church is getting smaller even to point of hiding in caves. But secularism is short lived in terms of history.
With Gay Marriage a new revenue stream opens for glad handing, Irish attorneys. Gay divorce is an subject not discussed and part of the impetus for the push of gay marriage. I predict the rate of gay divorce will be 25-50% higher than hetero divorce when the stats start. Divorce attorneys are licking their chops.
Who said and when?
"From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge—a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision.
As a small society, she will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly she will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Alongside this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly.
But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize her true center and experience the sacraments again as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.
The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystalization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek."
Renee, So many people are ignorant of history. Indeed, like may topics in history, there is a pendulum. It has swung secular the past several decades. It will swing back. I can abide the swings until they get too radical.
When I was an investigator for a prosecutor's office back in the 70's, the pendulum was swung against victims. It was blatantly unfair. Now, the pendulum has swung violently against defendants. MUCH more dangerous a swing. I find when the pendulum is in the middle, no matter which way has momentum, is generally when a culture is most successful.
Imagine how pissed off they'd be if, after a highly popular constitutional change, voted into law by a supermajority of the electorate, an Irish federal court ordered that the change be nullified, because of the superior moral wisdom of the judges.
If you look closely @ this new secular swing, you see it is shallow. Many people are believers in God, but have rejected churchgoing. They are becoming the great silent majority. The duopoly does not understand this. A national candidate who does, and plays it wisely, will be a big winner.
Renee... that was Pope Emeritus Benedict, former Cardinal Ratzinger, wasn't it?
The day our current Pope Francis was selected in the Vatican, she imagined Ratzinger sitting on the couch in a wife-beater watching the coverage, yelling "What!?!?! A Jesuit!?!??! And throwing beer cans at the TV.
Ó bhí mé ag an gCarraig,
is chonaic mé mé féin dó grá
Ó chonaic mé gile
finne agus scéimh na mná
Ó chonaic mé an t-ull
ba chumhra is ba mhilse bláth
Agus chonaic mé do Vailintín
agus ní sí á cloí mar 'láir.
Following the lead of the Jesuit Marxist in the Vatican, installed w/ the backing of the Usurper's Community Organizers. What a bunch of fools.
Renee... that was Pope Emeritus Benedict, former Cardinal Ratzinger, wasn't it?
I thought it was Elizabeth Scalia (a.k.a. "The Anchoress"). Maybe it was Elizabeth quoting the pope.
Whoever said it, I hope they're right.
In any case, I'll remain a Catholic. I'm not going anywhere.
Michael FitzGerald and Gerald FitzMichael.
I don't pay much attention to the present pope. But it's Catholic theology that keeps me Catholic not the pope. I believe. Popes come and go, the faith remains. The faith is bigger than the pope. Bigger than the Church, even. There are two Churches: the earthly Church and the Heavenly Church. The former is a human institution, highly flawed, the representative of the latter. It's the heavenly church where my faith resides.
I read direct from the Vatican site, no difference in the Popes. I don't get how people see the difference.
There's a difference in media reporting, but not the Popes...
I suggest we cede the word, word, "marriage" and adopt a new one that has the historical meaning and is reserved for the Union of men and women. It is a word they want. They should have it. Because they are entitled to be married, to divorce, to adopt to pay taxes as married couples. But they are not married-married. But give them a word and adopt a new one just for heterosexuals.
@Michael
Matrimony is latin for act of becoming a mother, yet we use it to describe two men who care for each other....
Cede all the words you can, they'll just go after any new words you create as hate.
Ive been thinking the only reason we haven't completely fallen apart as a society is because these things are being imposed on us, rather than a free choice of the people. God continues to bless us because we didn't choose these self destructive idiocies.
But the Irish chose to go down that road?
God speed.
Doesn't Ireland have a Constitiution? Where are the judges whose job is to relieve the Little People of these fraught decisions?
Please be careful and try to avoid slipping on all the mouth foam in this thread. The Piso Mojado cones will be out shortly.
This is going to be a boon for Irish tourism! If my partner of 8 years and I get our current relationship difficulties sorted out, we may be among the happy travelers to hitch the knot there.
This will be huge for Ireland's tourism.
The mighty gay dollar went hit that country hard.
What's wrong with Massachusetts for a wedding?
The wedding industry destroys relationships, have something small with meaningful vows and potluck it with the guests.
And I say that who sees heterosexual and homosexual relationships as unique different from each other in terms of needs & obligations, so much that they shouldnt be referenced as the same thing...
The Night That Paddy Murphy Died
The Night that Paddy Murphy Died
is a night I'll never forget
Some of the boys got loaded drunk
and they ain't been sober yet
As long as the bottle was passed around
Every man was feelin' gay
and O'leary came with the squeezebox
and the music for to play
Its not likely that there are enough happy gay people in the world to make much of a difference in re Irish tourism. There aren't that many gay people in the first place.
On the other hand, this is probably the beginning of the next stage of collapse of the Irish birthrate, which till now has managed to stay at replacement. They will now probably join the rest of Europe in auto-extermination.
If everybody now says its now fine to live only for the sake of ones pleasures, then duty is for fools, and only fools will do their duty.
Phyrric victories.
*hic*
Ireland has an emigration issue. Tiny country same population as Massachusetts. Not sure how many kids born out if wedlock, but people tend to marry in mid 30s.
They were holding steady at TFR of 2 kids per a woman.
If Irish are gay at the same 1.3% rate as in the US, that means there are few than 30,000 gay men in Ireland.
Figure half want to get married that makes about 7,500 marriages. Total.
Just to put it in perspective.
And that assumption that half want to get married and can find a willing partner, is just an assumption I puled out of the air.
7,500 gay weddings? Not per year but over some multi-year period? Just not that big a deal.
John Henry
I don't want lesbians to feel left out but someone else can do the math on them if they like.
I really don't give a shit about SSM one way or the other PROVIDED any church or clergy can opt out if they wish.
John Henry
If you want further proof of how anti-science and brain-dead the political far-right Republicans are these days, nothing more is required than their nonsensical confusion of pedophilia with homosexuality - especially as demonstrated by the hardest of the die-hard followers on this thread.
I realize this is what a lot of them are told that they must believe by a self-destructive Church so deluded and scandalized as to actually keep insisting that celibacy is a requirement for spiritual leadership, but the facts are the facts. It is utterly false.
Pedophilia is its own orientation. Not that people who are compelled to deny their own sexuality would understand that. But it is true. Homosexuals are no more likely to molest children than heterosexuals, and in fact the latter is probably more likely if anything.
The fact that both homosexuals and pedophiles are attracted to the Catholic priesthood due to its insistence on celibacy and seeing all lust as sinful, does not mean that they are equivalent orientations. It just means have both attracted to the priesthood because they have long been taboo, and they see the moral presumptions conferred upon such membership as a path to acceptance. They, further, see the celibacy it insists upon as a way to legitimize their efforts to suppress urges that we once thought of as abominable (homosexuality) or still do (pedophilia).
So, it's the priesthood that attracts both. But that does not mean the two groups are the same, and neither does it make them equal. It just means the priesthood has traditionally been a natural place of retreat for both.
Not understanding all this, as obvious as it is to anyone else, is the natural consequence of being dictated to by a bureaucratic morality clique - one that places way too much emphasis on a fear of sexuality and on sexual ignorance.
If there just three gay people in Ireland they shouldnt be unjustly discriminated against.
It isnt numbers, but the function & purpose of marriage in relation to public policy.
Marriage is still connected to the assumption of paternity, public policy governing public health and child care...
The government doesn't care about love of two people, culture and society might... But not government.
I can't say the conjugal act should be judged at significant level of difference, because it can lead to obligations of a child.
Do you have evidence, R&B, or do you just know it's true? Is the rate of pedophilia or ephebophilia higher among priests than in the general population?
7,500 gay weddings? Not per year but over some multi-year period? Just not that big a deal.
The theory is, all of Europe will come to Ireland to get married, as any countries marriage license is legal in all countries by treaties. Well, except in Arabia and Iran.
Course, if all countries promote unnatural (sorry wiktionary term) sexual intercourse, then this all becomes folly, and just another legal tax game.
"The states should limit themselves to licensing dogs, not people."
I don't know if the rate is "higher", but what's common knowledge is that a series of outrageous scandals has been ongoing in an institution where such a thing should be horrifying. Whether they're attracted (i.e. in greater number) to the priesthood for the reasons I suggested or not is speculation. But I gave it because it's rational to suppose so and makes sense. Better explanations would be interesting to entertain. I doubt they'll be forthcoming though as a lot of die-hard Church policy defenders seem to be in denial about a lot of things related to that. They view it as a familial institution that must be defended from any suggestion that it has been doing anything wrong in its dogma or how it goes about its business.
So the Guinness Book of World records has itself a hometown winner.
I doubt people will get married, interesting change in the parental gaurdianship laws.
Men cohabiting with a pregant girlfriend will get more paternal rights, but only if he is living with mom.
Non biological adults without marriage can apply for guardian for a child they are living with and care for.
Ireland had very few rights for fathers. With the decline of marriage, anyone living at the time of birth with mom gets guardianship.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/legal_guardianship_and_unmarried_couples.html
Agree with Ann, Nice Work Ireland!
"I predict the rate of gay divorce will be 25-50% higher than hetero divorce when the stats start."
Who says anyone will keep such stats? Gay advocates have been very successful at minimizing any study of gay life or even mentioning that there is any such information.
Not that they have to, mind. But keeping mum on the effect gays and gay marriage has on society is essential to ensure that there is no answer to the question, "Well, what do you care - it doesn't affect you, does it?"
Considering the horror unleashed on humanity by the Catholic Church for 1500 years(until modern times ended them), I fully welcome its demise and will celebrate on its corpse!
The government should not bestow its blessing on a sexual practice which killed 650,000 people by giving them AIDS.
Alex said...Considering the horror unleashed on humanity by the Catholic Church...
Considering the alternatives, I don't see it as being that horrific.
I think things got better after Charlemagne...
He had more going for him then Mrs. Clinton and Queen Huma anyway...
Quite that gathering of anti-gay bitter-enders clinging desperately to their hatred.
It is fun watching them get their undies in a bundle over this.
To think we have an impending Supreme Court decision that will undo their bigoted votes, this should be a fun month coming up.
"Who says anyone will keep such stats? Gay advocates have been very successful at minimizing any study of gay life or even mentioning that there is any such information."
Oh, I wouldn't worry about that, Trashhauler. I'm very confident that ndspinelli will be making numerous careful studies with stats and facts and all sorts of information. He knows a LOT about sex and everything else. Ask him!
I am an "anti gay bitter ender" I suppose.
I'm with my ancient heritage and culture on this. And so with nearly all of the best people I know, or knew.
This business requires one to go back over ones entire background, all the people that were once the best, bravest, most compassionate, and flip ones opinion of them entirely. They are all now evil, in retrospect.
Evil is now good, good evil. Selfishness is better than self-sacrifice, cowardice better than courage, whim trumps duty.
I don't see how any other opinion can be had here, there is no squaring this circle.
Either traditional ethics holds, or no ethics exist.
I hypothesize that the conflating of homosexuality and pedophilia came about because many gay guys have the same porny obsession with youthful sex partners that het guys have - only it is directed towards boys instead of girls.
This is not strictly pedophilia, but the concentration of priests victimizing a majority boys rather than girls further blurred the lines. Other than a spasm of female teachers, the general public is not used to seeing boys in this light. Also in a het situation the boy is still not really considered a 'victim'(by other het guys) of an older woman, but rather a lucky kid that got to fulfill (supposedly) every guy's fantasy. This is not the case when it's male-male. Suddenly the kid is absolutely considered a victim.
All you white-knight pro-fags. Let some guy run his hand over your crotch and grind his package against your asshole and suggest a good time and you'd knock his teeth out.
There is no upside to faggotry that anyone has been able to demonstrate outside of some blue-sky kin-selection hypothesis. Homosexuality is a disease that a better society would eradicate if it could. I feel bad for gays and some of them are nice people but promoting gaydom is like selling alcoholism or polio. It's anti-reason and anti-life.
The best that can be said of you promoters is that you are on autopilot and think it is necessary to be true to your notion of principle. That or you want to be down with the in crowd. Or maybe you think, More gash for me! Or you have a faggot son. Or some self serving bullshit. Whatever it is that motivates you, it is wrong.
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